 Medical Center CUNY Midtown Manhattan and the heart of Manhattan or in the heart of darkness, as some say, but it light is seems to be coming in through the cracks. Things look a bit more optimistic this being talk of opening the city to life force openings of theaters in September 14 or 15 so we are all very cautious and a little bit Curious to know how it will really all work out. But these are good signs and and in this long year of Corona. I think we are on a different way, but the big questions really is what did we learn What did we need to learn have we learned what we need to learn what will be different what already has changed and artists always have been part of change. They are the one who help us guide us through these Moments also of significant changes in societies and in our lives and we at the Segal Center now also talk to curators, producers, writers, academics, thinkers about the theater, the state of this theater, the state of the world and with us today we have a very beloved member of the New York theater community someone who has made an enormous contribution and he made New York Performing arts scene also what it is it's people like him who created we have with us Lucia Siam, who is sitting at home in his kitchen and a little bit more about that he created the invisible dog everybody who moves in the experimental art and dance knows about him and adores his work. I once had the pleasure to perform there and I got my own critique my line as a dancer in the New York Times. It was a choreography project of Michael clean, which he did and hosted so many, many other things Lucia. Thank you for joining us later at the great choreographer and director Roger I've had a Kelly will join us to who does a lot of work. Lucia, how are you? Where are you? Are you in the south of France? Hello, thanks for having me, Frank. It's real pleasure. You know, for the whole year of the past year I only did three zoom. Yes, I'm an autism activist. Okay, but I cannot refuse your invitation. So I accepted I'm pretty well. I'm not in the south of France. I'm on Bergen Street in Brooklyn, where I live and where I work with the invisible dog is just next door, just here. This is my little kingdom. And I never left New York City since the beginning of the pandemic. That was a real choice to stay here and leave the city with the city and with the people here during this whole time. And that was absolutely fantastic. I love New York even more now. That is incredible, incredible. But for all of us who do not know nothing about Lucia, and let me tell you a little bit about him. He was born in Marseille, I think his family is Egyptian background. Also, he was born there, moved to Paris when he was 19. He worked at a major French cultural institutions like the Art de l'Odeon was an important leader, which I think for also was the Art de l'Odeon was a European. It was actually, yes, it was actually the very beginning. It's when the Odeon separated from the Comédie Française and became completely independent and was only focused on European theater. So all the production 70% of the production we had were in other languages than French. It was Hamlet in Romanian or Shakespeare in Italian, and it was absolutely fantastic years. It was a very, very exciting time. The great George's trailer worked there like many, many others. trailer, Peter Zadek, Luc Bandy, Patrice Chirot, all these people were, yes. It was a destination like Bamber. If you got to that theater, you were in there. It also meant, you know, your work is respected by your colleagues, by fellow artists, but also by the Parisian, you know, European theater. He also worked next on Provence, Festival d'Art de Rique and Théâtre de la Madeleine, and then he took a little break and came to New York and he discovered the invisible door. He will tell us a little bit more about it and the story behind it. And in the time of Corona, and as I said, also the time before he also moved into a world, you know, we all got closer to the world of food, of nutrition, but he perhaps, as with everything he does, he dove a little bit deeper into it. And like some say, the animals, the zeals, they go into the ocean, they go so deep. Sometimes they even lose consciousness, and nobody really knows why there's no reason for it. And I think humans, artists, producers often do that and we benefit from it. So, Lucia, tell us a little bit about, why did you move to New York? I moved to New York in 2008, because I was, I think at the end of a cycle, I was in the beginning of my 40s, so I was probably in middle-aged crisis, and I was really tired, even exhausted of everything, of my life, of my professional life, and I needed change. And I didn't know what to do. So I looked on the map and said, where can I go? I knew I wanted to go far from France, but I didn't know where exactly. And actually, New York City was the most attractive city for me. I didn't know New York really well. I came here maybe once or twice before, but as a tourist, I didn't have so much connection here. Actually, I didn't know anybody here, and that was my decision to come in the city where I didn't know anyone, and I would be totally alone and far from everything. And I did it. I decided to come to spend three months here. Why three months? Because three months is just the time of the visa. That's the maximum time you can spend here. And to be very honest, I almost gave up after a few weeks here because October 2008 was the beginning of the recession here, and it was awful. Everything was awful. People were crying, losing their job, America was, everything was collapsing everywhere. And in addition to that, I didn't know what was a winter in New York City. And so I didn't have a coat, warm enough. I didn't have the right shoes to walk in the snow everywhere. And it was very, very, very difficult. But I said three months, I stayed three months. And almost at the end of my stay, I've discovered this building on Bergen Street. It's a 4,000 square feet building. It's a beautiful building made in brick and wood, built in 1863. And the building was empty. There was nothing, there was just a sign on it, written for these. And just by curiosity, I called the number, and I asked, may I visit the building? And the landlord actually was, his office was just next door. So he came immediately and he gave me a tour of the building. And I literally fell in love for the building. And not only falling in love. It's the building inspired me, the project. Like all of a sudden, everything made for the last 12 years, the musical dog came into my mind. And it's funny because I found recently an email I sent to a friend saying, I just discovered, like that was 12 years ago, I just discovered a building, it's beautiful. I want to make a project here and I describe a little thing and it's exactly how it is now. So it was the building really inspired me. Two minutes before, I would have never thought about something like that. And so I talked about the landlord. I said, I want to do this project here. What do you think? And he said, can you pay the rent? Of course. And I said, I don't know. I don't have any money. And he answered, I don't have money too. So we have to find a way to work together. And he said, yes. So I went back to France. I wrote him a project. And I came back here in April 2009. And the invisible dog opened in 2000, October 2009. With really something I was, I was, I wanted to do for a very long time is to create a multidisciplinary space for artists. Because I worked all my life mostly in theaters and opera, but I work also for dance. And everything was in a box. Like when we do theater, we don't do anything else than theater. There is no connection between theaters and museum. There is no connection between museum and dance companies. And I really wanted a multidisciplinary space where people are not coming to see something specific. They are just coming to a venue. Let's go there. And, and I did it one year, two years. Now it's 12. And in September, we will open the 13th season of the invisible dog. That's the whole story. It's just incredible that from the side or onsite, as Bertie Friedman writes about, you know, you've got an inspiration. It is a New York story. And unfortunately, we don't hear so many of them often now. The administration and they try to get into an institution and they do service for three years and then hope to run something like a very different approach. And you came, you said, I had no idea what to go. I have no money. I thought New York is an interesting town. And you saw an empty space and you didn't even know the paper, which I don't know. We have to tell us a little bit about it. But that is an incredible story. Sometimes, you know, sometimes it's like kids, kids, they don't know that if they put their hands on the oven, they get burned. They don't know that until they really put the hands on the oven. And it was the same for me. I didn't have any fear because I didn't know anything about New York. I didn't know anything how the art was funded. I didn't know anything. Yes. The only thing I knew is there was no public money here. That's the only thing I knew. Because in France, we have a lot of public money. Actually, we only have, we mostly have public money. I knew that little bit. So, but I didn't have any rules. I didn't have, I remember at the beginning I was talking with people, I said, Oh, I would like to do that. And they were telling me, Oh, you can't. And I said, Why? Why can't? Oh, you can't do something like that. And I was doing, I was trying everything because I needed to survive. I needed to create my product. So I didn't wait for any foundation or any institution to have to support me or to give me money. I always create my own business. And I said, I have to generate money in a certain way. And with this money, I will pay my rent. I will pay the gas, the electricity, the internet. And then with the profits left, I would be able to produce some work. And I did it like that. The first year I did $800 profit at the end of the year. It was not very much, but it was, I was still very happy to not create a deficit. It's incredible. Yeah. So you rent out part of it. How was your, how are you making it? So it's a very simple business model. The business model is based on real estate. So I have 4,000 square feet of the invisible dog. Two thirds of the invisible dog is rented as an artist studio. So I have artists in the building, they rent a space. They come work every day. I call them the heart of the invisible dog. We don't see them. But that's why the invisible dog is alive. It's probably because of them. And then the other third is the public space of the invisible dog, the main gallery on the ground floor. So it's a 4,000 square feet gallery. And here I generate incomes, not with the box office, because everything is free at the invisible dog. I don't charge any tickets. It's based on donation only. But I rent the space for weddings, bar mitzvahs, in between exhibition, in between performances. And then few years after I start to have production with other institution like PS 122 and Vallejo Gantner, when he was running a co-ed festival. He was running a co-ed exhibition from New York Tech Lab. Life art also was one of the first to come and co-produce a show with me at the invisible dog. And slowly like that. It's, at the very beginning here, I opened a bug account in New York City and I asked for a credit card. And a few days after they emailed me saying my application was declined. I said, why it's declined? Why I can't have a credit card? But I didn't know the difference between a credit card and the debit card. And I don't know what is it to create a debt. It's just I'm not made like that. I don't have this American system where I'm using credit card to pay that and that and that. So I'm only using the money I have. So it was very simple. If I don't have money, I can't do anything. It is incredible what you created. You gave a home to so many artists, companies. And when one comes to the invisible dog, what is the feeling one is with friends or as a part of a family? It's like, you know, someone who you know who owns a house in the countryside and they welcome you, you know, but you know how much they work to keep it up, to keep it running in the cold and the dark and all of it. So it's a unique space. It's a community you created. Yeah, because it's a little village. There is like 100 person working every day at the invisible dog artist assistant. It's like a very small town. So that's invisible. Nobody sees that. But that's a big part of my job to run the space to keep the space open, clean, with heat. It's incredible. Lucian, let me ask you, especially at the time of Corona. Why are you doing this? I think, again, as I told you at the beginning, I didn't have the idea. I didn't want to do that. I always loved being the second or being hidden. And I never had, I didn't know I was able to create something myself. So it really came organically like that. And why I would do that, I think it's only by pleasure. The pleasure is very, very big part of my life. Like I wake up in the morning with the pleasure of waking up already. That's the first thing and probably I'm sleeping with pleasure also. So I do everything by pleasure. And I have to say the invisible dog gives me a lot of this pleasure every single minute. Like I'd never had in 12 years a moment where I was bored. It's always exciting. It's always fun. It's 100% drama free. There is no, there is no bureaucracy at the invisible dog. We are to the staff of the invisible dog is two person and me and someone else. And the bureaucracy is limited that it's really minimum. There is never a contract with the artist is just check hands. We have to have a word and I keep my word. There is no promises we can't hold. So everything is very easy. This is a few years ago a landlord from in Goa news here neighborhood very close from here emailed me and said, can I call you have a lot of problems with my tenants. And I said, yes, of course, so he called me and he explained to me that his tenants artists were not taking care of the building leaving the light on the garbage in the corridor and all of that and he asked me how they don't pay the rent on time. And I said, well, I'm sorry to say, but I don't have this kind of problem about the invisible dog. Why because I'm there every day. I'm present every day. Anybody can talk to me at any time. And, and I think that's the secrets of the pleasure. Like everything is smooth, everything is easy. And it's the same for the program. I created the invisible dog. It's mostly based on the pleasure to work with artists. I, the project itself. I'm not always interested. I'm more interested in what artists are going to do in the space, how they're going to use the space. If they do something good, it's great. If they don't do something good, it's fine. Also, it's okay. I don't have to worry about that. How do you connect to the art? How do they come to you? How do you select them? I know you have to make choices as you are a presenter if you like it or not. Yes, like, like, I think there is no secret. There's no secret. There's not really a secret or a recipe about that. It's just like some artists come to you. You have to ask the artist to have to go. And since I'm a multidisciplinary space, I'm not doing only dance or theater or visual art. I do all of that. So I have to visit artists in their studio, go see performances, talk with them. Instagram has been a real change in the way you meet artists. For example, today, Instagram is probably, I would say, 30% of my research, I spend them on Instagram. I'm not traveling to European festival or things like that. So everything is focused on here in New York. And they come to you. But again, an artist can come to you with a very good project. It's not enough because you need a time, you need a real connection. And I really think that the way I've created Invisible Dog, there's many things happening. I left France. There was a recession here. This building was closed. My landlord was desperately looking for someone to do something with the building. So there was almost a comp lot, a coup made by the stars to create the Invisible Dog. And I think it's the same with the artist. And artists come at the right time, at the right moment, with the right project, and we do it. No, it's amazing. It's maybe one of the closest things we have to that old idea of Lamama, where Ellen Stewart, who ran a place, who she also fought for it. Also, in a way, like you, where one could say more on the outside or on the inside, or she was a woman, she was a black woman. Who said, I want to bring also international artists. It was only the society that brought puppet plays or stuff from the world to do America. Nobody had done it. And she created it from a very small basement with bigger theater than into Lamama. Lamama, in a way, is close to that. This time of Corona, it was interesting what you said. You never left New York. What happened was your space? Did anything change? Well, not really. To be very honest, not so much. Of course, at the beginning of the pandemic, nobody believed that that would last so long. Everybody was talking about three weeks and actually I was very happy. I said, oh, fine, three weeks off. Great. And so nothing bad. But then, when all of a sudden we realized that how serious was the situation here. I had the moment of stress. I'm not I'm not stressed at all in general. I'm very relaxed. As my friend knows, I always say, I don't care. I don't care. I don't care. Everything's fine. Don't worry. All of that is only music or theater or dance or arts. It's not a big deal. You can find solution for everything. It was a little moment of stress. Yes, of course. But the stress was probably generated by also my surroundings going on in the city. People died. People seek the sound of the ambulance all day long, night and day. So it was very difficult. But very quickly, I realized that the invisible dog was extremely, extremely stable. One of the artists who had their studio at the Invisible Dog left. They all stayed here. So already, as I said, the heart of the Invisible Dog was beating. The heart of the Invisible Dog never stopped. So when your heart's still working, everything's fine. You can be a little bit off or in a coma or something like that, but the heart is still beating. So they came to the studios. They continued working. No, no, no. The first two months, nobody came to the studio. It was like, or maybe two or three. There are 27 artists in the building. So maybe only two or three were coming. Most of them were staying home. But they didn't break their lease. They paid their rent and all of that. So everything was fine. Of course, we had to cancel events. We have to cancel productions. We have many things like that. And there was a big loss of income. That's absolutely certain, but not enough to put invisible dog in danger. And actually, after maybe four months after the beginning of the pandemic, after March 17, I realized that we were safe. And if I was managing well the situation, everything would be fine. For example, I've been very shocked in April when a lot of art institutions start to ask for money. Like the first thing they did is give us money. We need money. We need money to survive. And really I was very, very shocked by that. I said, there are so many other things to do than asking for money right now. It's not the right thing. There's people dying. There is people losing their jobs. And when I said people, of course I'm thinking about the artists and especially the artists in the performing, the artists of the visual art world, they were fine, more or less, because they were working for them. It was a moment to focus on their studio and paint and draw and sculpting. But visual art was, sorry, performing art was extremely vital to imagine. All of a sudden you have no more work, nothing to do. And you still have this institution who are asking for money. And I was very, very mad at that. Actually, I wrote something about that, publicly. So my first decision was... What did you say? Tell us a bit. What did you write? I said that. I said, you should more focus on what's going on to the artist. How is their life? Instead of asking for money, for you to run your space. For me, it was really... I don't want to use so much hard word, but it was really insane to do something like that. That was not nice. And many of them, from the biggest one, the Met, the MoMA, Brooklyn Museum didn't do it. For example, Anne Pasternak wrote an absolutely amazing newsletter in April, talking about how we have to take care of each other, what's the mission of the Brooklyn Museum to take care of people from Brooklyn. And that was absolutely beautiful. And she didn't know where in the email there was not even a link saying, give money. That was absolutely beautiful. She was a real inspiration during this period. But anyway, there was one thing to do, yes, was to focus on mostly that, the artist, because we work because of that. We are able to do all of that because of them. We don't have artists anymore. Our job doesn't make any sense. I'm sorry to say that, but without artists, there is no producer. There is no curator. There's nothing like that. So we need them absolutely. And they needed us this time not to produce their work. They needed us to pay their bill, to pay their rent, to buy food. I was sending almost every day $20 here because artists were asking me, can you give me 20? They needed that $20. So with an artist of the Invisible Dog, her name is Anne-Maurie, we created a fund called the Taking Care Fund. And we raised in really a couple of weeks $50,000. We invited artists to apply, but the application was just an email. Why would you use this money? Why do you need this money? And the email were incredible because really people were saying, I need to pay my phone. I need to pay my gas bill. I need to buy food. I haven't been able to go to the supermarket for several days now. And the money was wired in less than 24 hours. That was the goal, immediately. Give them that, and they didn't have to tell us afterwards how they used the money. What did they do? It was just a gift. So that was a real moving moment of this pandemic, when we did that. And then life came back almost organically. Summer arrived, things relaxed a little bit, and it's September. Yeah, it looks like we lost a bit of the connection from this year. Oh, I'm still hearing you. Yeah, now you're back. I don't know where you lost me. Yes, and slowly life came back in September when we opened The Invisible Dog with, of course, with safety measure, but with a new exhibition from Stephen and William Ladd. So of course everything is slower. Invisible Dog, usually we have four or five events a week, parties, openings, performances, people coming and staying, hang out late night. It's not the case anymore, but it's fine. I go to bed very early now. I sleep very early. Did something change in your thinking in the time of Corona, about art, about what you do? Yes, definitely. It's maybe too early to say. But you can't, in my opinion, you can't go through something like the pandemic, this pandemic, without a major change in the way you think, in the way in your relationship with others. I'm reading this book, and I want to just, she's a Japanese author. And she wrote this book called 961 Hours in Beirut in Lebanon. She was invited for a residency here. And when she, right after she left, the explosion happened. So she had to rewrite the book, because how can you ignore such a moment? And it's fantastic because she explained how our future is defined with before and after, when something happened. And something, when an event happened, all of a sudden, the before and the after get visible when they were not before. Without the pandemic, nothing would have happened. But the pandemic immediately created before and then after. And I can't imagine it will be exactly the same. But again, I say it's really too early to say what has changed. The way we walk, the way we take much more time to do everything, we enjoy the company of less people, maybe, but more deeper. There is definitely a kind of superficiality that has disappeared here in New York City. All the social thing of New York City has disappeared, it seems. We don't feel obligated to go there, do that, do that, do that, not anymore. And that's, I think, it's a good thing. And we have more time, we can read, we can talk, we can just look at the ceiling or cook. Yeah, we'll come to that a bit later. Why do you think art, I mean, you, for your work in France at Laudiot, art seems to be at the center of it. Why do we need art? Where's the need, especially in this time of pandemic where we were officially non-essential, in a way. But what are your thoughts about it? Well, not everybody needs art. It's like, and actually I would say, as we define art, two of us here, but definitely art is everywhere. The flowery look at is when we walk in the forest or a piece of art. The sky is a piece of art. Everything is a piece of art and everybody has eyes. So since we have eyes, we can see art everywhere. So I won't say we don't need art. When you go to the church, there's art everywhere. So you're confronted to art everywhere. But we need art. You, me, and probably people who are listening to us, it's just because it's our food. Without that, we don't know how to do anything else. So it's not even essential. It's a question of survive if we don't have this contact with art and artists to give us their vision, to give us, to share their, you know, they are the only one who see the future. We don't see the future. We see the future because of that. Without them, we won't see the future. But, and that's why art is very important. Yeah. Let's say, I know you did mostly not exhibitions, but let's say by September, really everything opens. Are you going to go back how it was at the invisible dog? No. No, it will be radically different from what you know it will be radically different. For example, so for example, usually an exhibition of the invisible dog, it's five weeks. And definitely now exhibition will be 10, maybe 15 weeks, much longer. Same performance we don't know yet. So we don't know when we'll be able to do that again. It's very confusing this message. New York reopened. It's very, very confusing because I don't know how the city and the state can just decide like that. Everything we open and it's over. It's not so I'm very careful with that. But yes, and again, but I can't really tell you how things will change. Conceptually, will you say I have more theater, my performance, more exhibitions, more community project on more. No, no, because, no, because because the invisible dog is all of that already. And, and yes, it's all of that already. And, and there is no, there is no, there is no frame at the invisible dog of the way I make my program. Program comes wherever projects are ready to be done. And it's very, very, very, it's very important to me. And since the beginning to keep the invisible dog extremely flexible, you know, this, this very famous fable of the Shen and the Roseau. So the Shen, I don't know what's the Shen is this big tree. What's the Shen in English, the Shen, the oak. Yeah, the big one solid. And, and the Roseau, the Roseau, it's the, the cane, you know, the sugar, like the cane, yeah, things like that. So it's a very famous French fable, you learn that at school. And it's conversation about this big solid tree is there for many, many, many, many centuries. And this very skinny and light cane like that. And there's a big wind that day. And, and, and, and at the beginning the tree says, oh, I'm sorry, I have no problem with me but the wind is getting stronger and stronger and stronger. And the cane is just doing that when the tree can't doesn't have any flexibility and at the end the tree fall. So the flexibility, I think it's, it's really survival kit of every institution, we have to be extremely flexible now. Going back to less, less structure, be more, I know it's not easy for everybody, but I think that's the key of the future. Yes, be even more flexible. Yeah, I just see that Rajah is joining us, you know, and tell us a bit about his work. Hi there. So you were rehearsing just right now, right? Yep. So you're a working artist in New York at the moment rehearsing. Tell us, what are you working on? Oh, man, I'm working on two projects. I'm working on a project that I can't say the title of it but I'm currently editing it and it will have a premiere in June, and another show called Wednesday that will premiere in December at New York Five Arts. And when you said editing it, will it be on screen, is it designed for screen? Yeah, one, one is a media project. And the other, the other was a live performance. Fantastic. That's, that's so good to know that you're all out there. And for all of you, everyone who isn't so familiar with Rajah's work, he is a choreographer and director and he's the artistic director of the new Brooklyn Theatre. He founded in 2009 the Dance Theatre Media Company Feather Theory, and the two companies actually merged. And he has gotten significant award, major awards, and many of them, the Creative Capital Award, the National Dance Project Production Grand, the Breakout Award, from the Stage Directors and Choreographers Foundation. He has the Dance Magazine's inaugural Harkness Promise Award, the Solange MacArthur Award for new choreography. And he's a three-time Princess Grace Award winner and he is born in Photon and Taxes, who's a BA in dance and English from Connecticut College. And he's got quite a, quite a, most impressive CD which you already have here. So tell me, what does the, what does the Invisible Dog mean to you? Oh my gosh. The Invisible Dog gave me my first evening show, Full Trust, and put me on the map for sure. In 2013, I believe it was, I was slated to premiere like my first evening-length show in New York City, and it was going to be at a place called Dance New Amsterdam, which is currently called Give Me, and it had closed down. And so our show was canceled and I emailed Lucien and I said, hi, my name is Raja. I'm a choreographer and I would love to do my show at your space. And I think everyone emails like that, like very scared. And Lucien said, I think three things to me. I don't know who you are, but you can use the space. Do whatever you want. And that sort of changed my life. I think no other presenter or artistic director of a theater has ever said to me, like, do what you want. And that is, it really shaped me as an artist because I expected that moving forward. Any space I went to, any theater, I was like, don't I just get to do what I want? And that's how I was treated when I first moved to New York and started making work. And that meant a lot to me. And I think it was one of my best works because of that. And then he did The Impossible, which also doesn't happen in New York. After I premiered the show in December, Lucien said, do it again. Six months later. And I said, Lucien, that doesn't happen in New York. You know, you do it and it's over. And he said, well, I think you should do it again. It was great. And I thought no one would come to see it again, but we sold out the first time and when we did it the second time, six months later, we sold out again. So many lessons I learned in that time. And now that's, that is, it's such an interesting space that perhaps it has some answers for us. And Lucien was just talking that he was able to be flexible in this time of Corona. Artist state, the model and artists are kind of, you know, own the building in the sense of they also rented and paid for it. It's theirs, but it's also worked over by him. And they've kept the doors open, fundraising for the artists in a way. Well, how are you experiencing New York at the moment? You're an artist? You're a dancer? Some say only poets have a harder time than dancers, you know, if you're an artist. So, so tell us about how are you experiencing this year of Corona? Yeah, it's I would say it's a bit back and forth and and some in some cases I feel more connected to my creativity than I ever have because I'm not worried about bureaucracy. I'm not worried about logistics. I'm not worried about making people happy. I'm not worrying about awards. I'm not worrying about anything other than what fulfills me on a day to day basis, because I'm just sitting with myself and I'm just communicating with my friends and people who who make collaborating and that that has been a fantastic reminder during this time and something I feel fortunate because I have my health to continue to do. And yet on the other side, I feel very confused around like what our, what is our field? What do we do as theater makers and who are we supporting as theater makers and and there's been a bit of a bail lifted where I'm looking at it and I'm seeing lots of issues that have always been there and both the desire to remain a creative and to remain in the field and at the same time a desire to for it to just be over to be done. It's very, it's a very, you know, when we say the word interesting, my, what I understand about that word is that interesting means between two things. And so when I say interesting, I mean it I think it's a very interesting place to be in because it's between something that I really love and something that I feel is my, my responsibility and my the core of me my blood is to be an artist and between this thing where I'm disgusted by it and confused by it and want it to be different and better. Yeah, it's almost one space on the threshold in a photo frame, there are two rooms and you're in between both of them. Lucien, when I invited you to come to the secret or not only you said right away, yes, short notice, but you said I want a Roger with me why because as I told you before, during this, this past year. There was a few people in our life, mostly because we didn't have any social life anymore and but this Roger has been in my life for like 10 years now. 10 years so but it was my professional life. And all of the sudden during this pandemic, we, a lot of people disappeared a few left and they became foundation, they became really something you can, you can, you can lean on and Roger was one of them. I think we talk on the phone almost every day for a year. And at least even even if it was just a couple of minutes, sometimes it was very short, but we took a lot together. We thought a lot together. I remember even we cried together one day, I don't know why something happened. I don't know why but and and we made some projects together. Roger curated a music festival last year in June online and same we gave money to 1213 14 artists, I don't remember to create a short video at home, something simple. And and with interview and he was extremely fun and it was for the week of pride. So we did a lot of things together. And and and that's why today I he's rajah is much more than just an artist I love I admire. He's he's a real pillar in my life, real foundation. Yes, it's true. I don't say that because we are in camera. Yeah, and so that's right. Okay, fragile is available. I will do with Roger. Yes. And and we work together recently. So secret project. Yeah, what did you work together? What did you we can say we can say we can say it's a collaboration. Very soon. But it's a it's a I'm at home. And home is in New York in Brooklyn. You're in Brooklyn. Yeah, so. So do you go over sometimes to this space is a midnight and you dance in there or I wish if Lucy and gave me the keys I would do this. You never ask for the keys. Yeah, well now I just got the idea that maybe I do you know I really I actually stay up very late. And I call it my witching hours between like, you know, two and four a.m. I'm most most creative then and if I had keys to a studio I would totally I'll give you the key. I will never ask but I But you know, like what's what's what's Roger said earlier when when he said I told him do whatever you wanted exactly that that's not a favor I made to him because that's first that's what I'm saying to all the artists I'm working with. I don't want to interfere in their creative process. I think they have that in mind. And from the moment you talk to an artist to the moment of a project is done. Of course everything is going to change and it's it's it's It's good if everything change if nothing change that's not a good sign and there is always the story I love. I absolutely love to say with Michael and Abby from 600 high women. I saw I went to prelude festival at the Martin Fiegel place and there was like it was like a show every 10 minutes and arrived the end of the day. I was really exhausted. I haven't seen anything really I was excited about and there was Michael and Abby I knew them a little bit because they had the residency at the invisible dog but I didn't know them really well I was almost about to leave and I said okay. It's the last one I go see it I saw it 15 minutes and I love it. So at the end of the show I go see them and I said would you like to develop this product at the invisible dog. Yes, two days after date were set up everything was fine. They arrive four months after for the first three years so and you know my office at the invisible dog is in the gallery. I don't have an office upstairs. I'm really in the gallery so I can see everything happening in the gallery. And I the rehearsal started and strangely it was very different when from what I saw before and but I didn't say anything I thought it was my memories and maybe I forgot that was four months ago and the show happened. And at the end of the show that last day was the record at the last day of the show. We went for lunch together and I told them I said by the way that was not the show I saw in October right and they said no absolutely not it was totally different. But you didn't tell me they said and then they look at me and I said but you didn't ask Lucia. And I love the story because that's really the invisible dog. That's really you come to the invisible as soon as you're invited at the invisible dog you can do whatever you want. And I have to say this this recipe has been very successful. Roger, thinking about this, which is very profound, you know it sounds very simple but relationship space. Oh it's not simple. No, it's not simple. But it's not simple but that's so if we want to talk about something more technique. I have to say if you want to make your life. If I wanted to make my life as a director as well only whatever you want easy and simple. I would like to make the life of the artist who are working with me difficult. I would like to make the life for the people who are the audience member difficult. It's the opposite. I think exactly the opposite. I should make life easier and simple for the artist to work and to the audience member. That's why you don't pay when you come at the invisible dog you just make a donation that's why I'm asking for artists do whatever you want. But you're right. When you say that behind the background of that the administration of that is extremely complicated takes much more time. And it's like almost 24 hours all the time because you have to adjust or there's no rules. The rules is just be respectful of the space but inside that it's very flexible. So that doesn't make my life easier but at least make the life of the artist much easier and that's the most important. So Raja for you. I mean you have such deep roots also in the New York community artist community. What changes would you like to see you know of course not every space can be an invisible dog but what do you feel is wrong and what can be correct. What should what should we pay attention to now with users presenters everybody scholars. Yeah you know it's something that really made me very upset in I think may or March or May of last year and I wrote this article in for dance magazine that said has anyone asked an artist what they need and I really meant it and it's something that is often not asked and and I feel now that I have to sort of beg or force my way into making the work that I want to make and I have to sort of push away. Presenters and producers who feel that they want to have a heavy hand on my work. And so I think I you know I think it's also a criticism of mine that so much performance and and and theater and when I say theater and I mean theater dance music etc but I call it all theater. It starts to fall flat and it starts to all feel the same because the artists are giving the exact same resources and and they're treated exactly the same there's formulas that are created that seem and that that want to support artists and they don't because we're not asking artists artists aren't being asked what do you want what do you need how can I support you and to Lucien's point that would make things much more difficult for presenters and producers and theaters etc. And so of course it's not asked it's let's come up with a rubric let's come up with a system and then each artist will go through that system and then make something because and it's decided what what we need as opposed to asked and that small change would make the largest difference. Yeah it's true what do you need and I think came in was here from the London project you once said also what I do now which I didn't do before if I remember actually you also say how are you, you know, so in that busy way of New York and that life, you know, we didn't ask that enough how are you will listen at the time, but also say what do you need as an artist you know so these are these are, or again it sounds simple but these are significant and changes that they would would take place. I think I saw they created an evening to support also your dance company I was there I saw this beautiful flow of bodies in that space which adapted. Do you, do you think out of Corona will come that also dancers career will say we move outside the, you know, the life art space and dance places, or will there be still not so we'll let me say we can wait to get back into the perfect dance spaces what is in your community what do you hear and you yourself what are you thinking. You know, it's funny you should ask it's something that similar to my last statement, and I actually went to dance magazine to write another article to which they refused to publish. But I told them, no one's there's so much talk around like, you know, the coronavirus there's so much talk around the scandals that are happening. No one's asking artists to talk about what their ideas are. You know, like, it doesn't in my mind I'm like, it's who knows where our performances will take place maybe they will be in theaters maybe they will be outside, but let's let's ask the artists where their ideas are and let the ideas lead the way. But we're not where I don't feel that we're often asked to just dream. And we're and I don't think artists are asked enough to, to imagine, you know, what would you what what would you like to do. Where would you like to do it what what is what is the idea what is that idea mean. Why do you want to do that idea. Who do you want to participate in that idea. What I think artists are led to do is feel like oh well if I want to do a show and I wanted to be at this space, then I have to make it there or I won't get any support. So it starts to shape what we believe is possible. So there's the one way I could answer your question is like, whatever people make available to artists artists will take and make. You know, and if, if you ask an artist first you know what's your idea what's your project and then ask them, well where does that want to happen, then they might. They might feel the space to say like, Oh, well, well maybe I want, you know, this theater to produce it but maybe I wanted it to be outside maybe I want it to be underwater maybe I want it to be a video maybe I want it to just be like in an audio that I send to your computer but it's still being produced by the theater without needing to go there you know I think our creativity wants to be nurtured so that it's actual creativity and not reactionary. But listen about you, if you that time of Corona, if, what would you like to do what would you say I, I would like that's. Is there something we said they've seen that emerge that manifested as an idea or the project we say this is now I would like to do especially after this time we went through. Is there something or do you think it's like this Lucia you need a space you know the partner to create something it's not something in your mind along. I didn't know you know funny enough, let's you know funnily enough. If I think back to 2012 or something this theater that I was going to shut down, and I called Lucien because I wanted the space and similar in Coronavirus. You know the, but the, or the pandemic rather things are shut down, and I spent some time with Lucien and I said, I have an idea. And Lucien's like, you should do it. And then I did. You know, and sometimes that's all that it takes you know so and it was, I mean, my company and my collaborators, I think, still to this day are like flabbergasted that we were able to achieve what I think we made achieved by June we'll see we're currently on it but you know there was a conversation once with one of my closest collaborators where she's like, I'm doing the work of six people. You know, and it and it's just like just and it and it and that wasn't necessarily a complaint. I think it was but also just that this person is capable of doing that that we you know when we're given the space to like dream and to make something happen we can do that. And so you know I asked I asked a theater can I have the space. I asked Lucien, can you help me find some money. I had I use these resources from different places to make a dream of mine come true and and that taught me which is like, maybe just keep doing that. Maybe don't try to look for, as I mentioned to you before the formula but create, create the create the avenue for yourself, and that's going to look different and hopefully when that's achieved people will say like, oh, how did you achieve that thing and then I can say well, I asked for this from this person and I asked for this from that person and I asked for this and and and and people trusted me to do that. And maybe that's a new model or maybe that's just a new approach I don't want to say model actually that's a new approach of thinking about like oh it's it's all out there. Maybe it doesn't look like going to one place and making one thing and then that place owns it and then it's under their rules. So, you know, there's many things I want to do I write I make media, I make devised theater. And I want to be able to have the freedom to do that when it when it feels exciting or important for me to contribute to culture and not have to ask permission to do that. And to be given space room and the resources to really see it through. And I think also a little bit of liberty because the, the other problem here and and I hope this pandemic will change that is the way arts or performing artists funded here. A lot of guideline and finally like very very little freedom when you apply for a grant and all of that. There's a lot of restrictions on that. So maybe the funding should change also as you said not not another model but more flexible more simple, more simple. I remember during the pandemic. Raj has said something to me he said that there was there was a grants small grant offered by an organization and the application to get this money and the money was $200 at the end the application to get this money was absolutely insane. We were asked you for tons of people of paperwork and all of that and I remember Raj told me, we are immediately enough. We don't need to be immediately more just to get $200 or $300 because why because the application is complicated the application. So much time and resource and you don't want to do all of that because again, they just want to create work. So if the funding in America change or switch to something more flexible different more listening to what the artist needs. That would be fantastic. No, it makes a very big distance and they tell something about the society where he treats the artist we had a diet bassoon from Egypt actually also go back on and she said we had to fill out 12 pages and then we had to call one phone number. And there was only one number in all of you could call and you had to wait five or six hours and at the end you would get $50. And meanwhile, you know, if it works out we will have the after the Bell's festival the theater of World Theater Festival people were doing it in Germany at the moment, you know, and then region was able to give $200 million to artists as a as a resource they are thinking about what to do with it, you know, but everything is closed there. Germany is still closed down perhaps they cannot show the festival. The program has been printed as for the Vienna Vienna festival, but without showtimes without when it's going to happen as a great confusion happening but there is some support out there. You see, who inspired you. I mean, I know you were the only I'm about to say I kind of want to run this for this is what I like but still they are, you know, always institutions or people, maybe about is what, what made you do this. Whether musicians novelists playwrights presenter who who who inspired you who do you look up to. Well, when I was young I wanted to be an actor. And so I start acting acting school and but very quickly I realized that I didn't want to do that. I was not very interesting being an artist or an actor and all of that. At that moment I've discovered that behind the stage. There is a whole world of tech administrators producers electrician. I don't know hushers and all of that. And it has been an epiphany for me I didn't know that when I was young. The idea I was watching theater on TV and was just a screen and you didn't know what's going on behind. So when I discovered this whole world, I was absolutely fascinated. And I have to say, I've been lucky enough to work for 10 years with a guy named Stefan disner. He was the director of the theater of the Madeleine director of the festival Dix en Provence, the director of the Scala in Milan, the recently the opera of Paris and now he's in Naples, and I worked 10, 10 years with him. And he, he taught me everything. He taught me this point of, ask the artist what they want, and just answer yes to everything. Life will be much easier. Don't try to make your life, their life, their life difficult. Your life will be difficult, but not there. He taught me all of that. The way he was working easy, fast, and again, leaving the artist will do whatever you want. So I had the chance to meet this man. And, and he was very, very inspiring. Yes. He, he's my mentor. Absolutely. And, but, but I can do anything else, maybe next year in two years in three years, if something happened, I don't know, I'll have to do something else. Maybe. Can you look up to in the time of Corona now also in general who do in the what inspired you in the last year. Is there something we say this gave me a shot in the arm. The vaccine. What are you upset with, but is there also something where you felt this inspired me. I really think it's my friends and collaborators, you know, I feel very lucky that the people who are my closest friends are also people that I collaborate and, and I, you know, I include Lucy and in that now because I've now collaborated with him so closely on a project but I feel that people similar to what Lucy, Lucy and saying when when there are people around you who say yes, instead of no, or let's figure it out, instead of that's impossible, or, yeah, okay, I don't know what that means but I trust you. And that just opens up so much. And so my best friend is my closest collaborator, my husband is a performer and my company, my, my, my friends, spouses work for the company so it really you know it doesn't have to be a family, but that we're close, we think together and work together and see the world differently and and the same at the same time that's really inspiring and not that sense of community is something that can be can be easily ignored and something that I'm going to try something that I'm going to hold on to. This is over. And how interesting and we have heard that also on seagull talks, it's actually not the screening of an artwork or you know that what we think but it's that idea of community that through the arts but still the idea of the closeness and what we perhaps were missing before without knowing it and we rediscovered, but it is actually that that that that village around us, the one that Lucien said is 100 people at the invisible dog. And I like the idea that you said the artists are invisible but they are there, they are visible at the invisible dog. I didn't know that actually so many also yeah I had their studio is there nobody nobody really knows that something invisible what we came up with. Lucien, since you mentioned also before we see that you're still behind you at lots have been written there was a big movement in performing arts and food and and and the significance of it also for artists to say you know you have to cook your own meal in your own kitchen recipes you can learn from them but then you do variations and someone who cooks for you. That's, you know, more important to you than perhaps the best cook somewhere in the in perhaps in Singapore, or you won't get to you know so the idea of you do something locally often family friend the grandmother's I know you have your grandmother, behind you up on the wall next to your father. What is the idea of food for you, you just you and people told me about it you have these evenings where you invite I haven't invited yet so one day I have to now. What is that idea what did you discover and how does it connect to your work would you do as Raj on everything else tell us a bit of any cook for something I don't know. A couple of years ago I got a new a new passion for cooking. I didn't have that before. And, and of course, the pandemic helped a lot to develop this passion. What does real passion mean what does real passion for this army. It's a real passion. It's obsession actually it's not passion. It's obsession. Okay, a passion for me is obsession. And, and, and actually that's how I call my, my Instagram account Lucia chef ambition. So it's, it's a really it's an ambition and that's really focused on obsession every day. And I started to I started to cook and you know how it is here in America and especially in New York as soon as you do something. Someone to push you say you should you should do more do something with that. So I had this idea of created the space where I am here. Now it's called the salamangé salamangé means the dining room in French but everybody calls now Sam, Sam. I have a table of 12 and I invite friends, artists, supporters, people I want to put together and we have here meals and preparing for them and I, I learned I read a lot I don't know now I have maybe 300 cookbooks or maybe more. I read a lot about history of food, philosophy of food, history of food, but also recipe I'm practicing almost every day. And, and I have to say that has been for example, during the during the pandemic, a real life saver, because I gave three times a week recipe online. I was cooking live on Instagram, three times a week. And, and there was like tons of people following that and extremely happy to do that very simple. On my Instagram, I don't know 3000, 4000. I'm not a big star yet, not yet. But, but, but that was, but that was also a way to connect with people. And when I was receiving pictures from people telling me I made your fish. I made your lemon tart. I made that I was, I was, I was very, very happy about that. Very. And, and I'm still, I'm still cooking every day. Yes, still doing dinners, not at home anymore, but in the garden of the invisible dog, which is also a very nice place. So in the garden, you invite some people to come in the outside. Yes. Yes, absolutely. And to have dinner together. What was his food? Honestly, have you, have you. I mean, you haven't had it. Is that what you're saying? Well, you are lesser of a human until you've had it. It's really life changing in that it makes you feel more alive. It's so good. It's really, you know, I, my, I don't, my, my grandmother is, is a, you know, she's not a chef, but she's, you know, a home cook. She takes cooking very seriously. And my husband does as well. And, you know, it's, it really is something special when people talk about what goes into the food, how you talk to food, how you prepare it, how you let it, you know, I'm impatient. Cooking is not really something that is, I'm just like, you know, I'm, I'm impatient, but I also don't use microwaves. So there's that. But, but the care at which goes into it really does make a difference in how it tastes. So to watch, you know, and if you've seen any of Lucien's YouTube videos or Instagrams to watch and read about how much time that goes into it and how much care that goes into it, and then to taste it, you, you can actually taste care and taste time and patience. It's amazing. I had no idea about that, that whole site and the YouTube videos on the Instagram, but it's a close connection from what I hear how they tear you the care you take, you know, of your friends, your family, your artists and then, and cooking. So Roger, did you meet people at his dinners you didn't know before and you stayed friends or Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, there's something you know what what theater does and what food does so it's quite something is so off so many of us, you know what to be thinking and cooking and I mean, I have a program here also last year. I have a botanist came for a week residency here in October, I'm receiving a Palestinian chef for months and a half in residency here. I'm going to work on the whole history of the Palestinian foods. I had with the, we made performances readings. Also, so in addition to the dinner itself. There is also an artistic program not so much yet but, but I think I'm going to develop that very much and of course, every time now there is an event of the invisible dog. I'm making something that amazing. Yes, of course, I'm making something simple but yes. So yeah, so I think people are asking, you know, how the world will change how should performing arts look like how do you present what's going to be new. What if you look what the invisible dog has done what Roger has done you this things are already out there. And everything but these are models they are highly, highly original they're different, but they do work. And we have to take that very serious what Lucian said was Roger said, while listening about asking what the artist want the trust, the opening the work for it. And, and so this is a model that can be done and encourage everybody was listening around the world you know you've seen empty building maybe say yeah well Lucian did it maybe I could start that too. And he didn't know how this all will work out where it's going to lead to it could have also been a failure but I but I didn't care about that I didn't care about that. Yeah, so this is something instead you know and the water and the big trees will how little do we see from the Broadway theaters now what how much care do they give to the artists they work for that and paid them. I don't know if they even produce mask what did they do for the neighborhoods they are in. You know also other big institutions in town cultural ones really have to say what did we do and what what should have been done it's a big lesson to be learned. So but listen, could you cook something or not I was joking but do you have something now. Now. Yeah, or not. Yes if you want I can make something I can provide something like this doesn't take too long I mean Roger said so much preparation goes into it. No I can I can make no because it's lunchtime so lunchtime usually it's simple things and very easy. Let me like look at my fridge. Yes, I can do something very simple. Yes, give me a second. Oh, change my costume. So, and if you want I will send you the recipe after you can post it on your. Okay, so this is an improvised session. Now I'm going to get hungry. Come for lunch boo boo. So, what we can do again it's very simple. And it's very original because it's very very tasty with an ingredient we usually not very much it's zucchini. Okay, zucchini very often it's not very tasty and so to do that you need like let's say to zucchini you see here yes. To zucchini. You need a knife. You need a board like that. Then you need a mandolin if you have that if you don't have a knife is perfect. Little bit of olive oil. Like this. You need curry. Okay, so this is Japanese curry. But you can use your very and and and a little bit of heavy cream. Of course I'm French so there is cream everywhere. And the people. Yes, so let's start with that so first thing. You need to peel the zucchini like that and you leave a little bit of the green. Okay, if you're. Okay, always rinse your vegetables, even if they're always. Why. One and two. So remember the zucchinis are reducing a lot. So very hungry. Very simple. Let's try to make this recipe in 10 minutes. Then you try that. And then you slice them so if you don't have a mandolin, you just make slices like that. Not too thin to avoid the to avoid the so I can show you something like that. To avoid the zucchini like to melt completely. Of course, if you have that, it's much more faster. It's more dangerous, of course. You can cut your finger very easy with that, but it's much faster. This one. That's also a Japanese mandolin. They're the best one. Okay. Not the German wasler, you think. So then you need to have a walk. It's perfect if you don't have a walk of any frying pan. You put like a serious amount of olive oil. And why I like the work because in the work everything cooks much faster. Because the way the heat is diffusing in the work makes everything goes very, very fast. We wait like a few seconds until. Can you see maybe I should move my computer. Yes. That's a little bit better. Very stable. Okay, and now you're. That's very simple and you just leave them like that. I think. Five minutes. And we could very quickly. Yeah, that's also. Right. So he is about a dollar or something. So it's quite, quite, you know, quite healthy and the good thing, you know, yeah, it's very healthy. There's just vegetable. Curry and cream. The cream is very healthy too. People know. Yeah, you pay four or five dollars for a chocolate chip cookie, you know, and, and so this is something that will sustain you on the day. So already, it's been like what one minute now, you can always add olive oil. Amazing, Raja, did you know that you would be cooking show not really right. I didn't know I actually just went to go see if I had any of these things I just went to check the fridge I was like I'm hungry now. I have pistachios that's all I've got. What can I do with pistachios this year. You can make a pesto. Oh, with your pistachio. Do you have anything green in your fridge. No, but there's a I have a garden. I've got some. I've got some rams. So you have rams. Yeah. Okay, so you get rams. You never told me you have. You never asked. Yeah. The zucchini are half cooked already. So you get your rams. Okay, and you have a you have a food processor. I do. Okay, so first of all, you put your pistachios in the food processor without the shell. Okay, that's good. Never know what you want. Yeah. And then you mix you make your pistachio in the powder and then you add rams. All the rams you have. Yeah. You add olive oil. You add you can add like a clove of garlic. Yeah. And then you mix all of that until you become something creamy and you make a pesto. Wow. And then you can do pasta. I can do pasta. You can't eat pasta? Why? But what else can I put it on? Can you eat bread? Yeah, you like bread. Oh, you can't eat bread. Okay. So what you can do is eat rice. Yeah, rice. I can do some rice. Can I put it on like salmon? Can I put it on some fish? It's a pesto. You can do whatever you want with it. But what is it going to be best with? Oh, anything like bread is good, pasta is good. Of course, rice is very good. But yes, you can make, if you make a fish, for example, you can melt the pesto first and then cook the milk, the fish in the pesto. Wow. And at the end you put in the milk or what are you, what's going to happen? The cream? All right. You put in the cream at the end? No, not yet. So you see, you're, they're ready, almost ready. So you wait until they're really cooked. Okay. And when it's done, so here it's almost done. You take your curry first, you sprinkle curry on it. So same, here I put like three. But if you don't like too much or you want more, you remix. So you see the little trick is you see the zucchini are making water. You see the water here? Yeah. In the bottom, the zucchini will be really completely cooked. When the water will be gone, they won't release any water anymore. And when it's like that, you mix the curry then there is curry everywhere. Then you take the cream, you pour some cream and here you mix again. And you lower the heat because this cream should never boil. So what you want is the water of the cream to evaporate, to get thicker a little bit. And you just leave like that, same, a few minutes. Cook in the cream. And then it's done. So you see? And it's a beautiful color also. And you let the cream evaporate until they get thicker a little bit. And then you can serve that as it is, or it's perfect with fish. Also it's very good with fish. Amazing. Very simple. Lysias, thank you so much for that information. And this is a big philosophical concept. Do home cooking in what you do for your own, but also in your art, collaborate, you know, and think about who's going to come to eat, who's your audiences. And think about the ingredients and everything. So it just was a great talk. Go see my Instagram. Okay. I have no idea about it. And can you share the recipe to publish? Yes, I will email you the recipe a little bit later. Okay, so we can put it on our side under the talk. And there's something important here to learn this, you know, it's this idea of thinking about, you know, food and making it, combining it fresh and local. So this is great. Roger, thank you for joining. And I'm sorry, we didn't ask you to cook, but you, but it was improvised. Oh, it's better. It's better if he doesn't cook yet. Yeah. But he's doing a good. If you make this a kidney. So those of you as thank you, really, thank you. This was a real important and significant talk. I think we really highlighted also that time you live in, but also spreads a little bit of optimism. And then we need and tomorrow, if our listeners have the time, I want to give a significant, very important artist from Russia. It's a Kirill. So Rebenikov, one of the great directors of this world, also a filmmaker, someone who was fired now from this great Gorky theater and turned a small theater into an important one. He has been under house arrest by the Russian authorities. And he is one of the great, great creators and the European theater award for a new direction. And it was not so easy to reach to him. Also, I think for him to talk, but we will have a session with him tomorrow. So we're going to hear what does it mean? If you're an artist in Russia who criticizes the government, what happens to your theater? What happens to you? What happens to your life? And in the time of coronas will be a great update. So we will hear it all works out. I'm going to start with, I'm going to have a second one from the theater. From Tiatr De Veld. Next to it from Kari Pellov. And we're going to have Abhishek back. And another Rupa Roy from India from the devastating situation which he experiencing in New Delhi. So thank you both. Thanks for how round for hosting us again. We went a little bit over time. Thanks for having us. They will forgive us. improvising and putting these up, thanks for a little bit. So, are you ready now, to suggest? I can't show you ready, no, it's ready. You see how is it, the cream has thickened a little bit. It's ready to serve. It's fantastic, fantastic, amazing, amazing. And are you gonna eat it? I'll invite you soon. Are you gonna eat it? Or if I'm going to eat it now? Yes, yeah. Fantastic. Okay, so put a photo on Instagram and say, if you made this at the CGTRO. Thank you, Arraja, again, thank you. I hope we'll see what you're cooking up with this year for the June release and for the September. Now, soon we will be able to see your great choreography. Again, that beautiful work what you do with your ensemble. I also had a feeling it was a real ensemble of dancers, what you created. And it's a great, great New York work. So thank you all and again, thank you. And thanks to your audience for sticking with us a little bit longer than usually in case you did. So thank you and all the best. Bye-bye, Lucian. Bye, thank you, bye.