 Hello and welcome to My Career and Data, a podcast where we discuss with industry leaders and experts how they have built their careers. I'm your host Shannon Kemp, and today we're talking to Doug Kimball at Ontotext. With a robust catalog of courses offered on demand and industry-leading live online sessions throughout the year, the DataVersity Training Center is your launchpad for career success. Browse the complete catalog at training.datavercity.net and use code DVTOX for 20% off your purchase. Hello and welcome. My name is Shannon Kemp, and I'm the Chief Digital Officer at DataVersity, and this is My Career in Data, a DataVersity Talks podcast dedicated to learning from those who have careers in data management to understand how they got there and to be talking with people who help make those careers a little bit easier. To keep up to date in the latest in data management education, go to DataVersity.net forward slash subscribe. Today we are joined by Doug Kimball, the Chief Marketing Officer at Ontotext, and normally this is where a podcast host would read a short bio of the guest, but in this podcast, your bio is what we're here to talk about. Doug, hello and welcome. Hi, Shannon. I'm excited to be here. I like to flip with the other twists here. I'm starting off with all about me, because we're going to talk all about me. No, I'm kidding. So yeah, I'm excited. I think I love what you guys are doing. This is an outstanding effort. Thank you so much. We are here to talk about you and how you got to where you are. So let's start with that. So where are you're the Chief Marketing Officer at Ontotext? So what is Ontotext? We are a knowledge graph company. That's probably the shortest version of the answer. So the differences between like a relational database like access and knowledge graph, it's about as different as your brain is to a computer chip. You know, you can do knowledge graphs, create relationships, understand data better, help drive analytics. There's a ton of things that knowledge graphs do. If you've never seen them before, but if you use Google or if you use IMDB or Uber or things like that, you've used a knowledge graph. So that's what we do. Oh, I love that description. I haven't heard that before. And that's a very, very good description, very understandable description. Try to make it spin. Well, let's talk about it. So you're the CMO. So what is it that you do at Ontotext? If I summed it up, there's two ways I sum it up. My key, my and the team's key focus is on two main things. Market awareness, you know, who is on the text? And what do we do? Why do we do it? And then lead, basically demand generation lead generation. So how do we then say, okay, cool. I want to go buy something from Ontotext because I need their data management knowledge graph services. So big buckets is what we as a marketing team focus on my overall arching, you know, driving pillars, but my big girl, my big job really is strategy and vision. So bringing in the years of experience, I haven't saying, let's try this. Let's look at this way. Let's try these plans. Let's try these programs, these channels, different ways of doing things. And just providing that vision to say, here's what we're trying to go after. Here's what we're trying to close from a business standpoint. Here's what we want to make people aware. And then laying out the plan. I've got a great team that I work with. So that makes my job a lot easier. That's amazing. So let's talk about then that experience. So let's back it up quite a bit here. And so Doug, you know, when you were very young in what in the US, we call elementary school. Was this the dream? I'm going to grow up to be a CMO at a knowledge graph company. Absolutely. I mean, I've already done it. No, I'm kidding. If I listen to what my mom told me, I wanted to be an astronaut. So I missed something in this whole process going from astronaut to CMO, but my earliest recollections of being an astronaut, probably because I'm sorry, I'm old, not long after the moon landing. Actually, I was a liar during the moon landing. So I think those little things around my mind were watching the TV. So as I grew up, I always found I was very good at talking to people and people wanted to talk to me and share and tell their stories. And here's my challenges, my problems. So ended up going into psychology and becoming a counselor. Again, counselor CMO. We'll come back to that. It's fascinating. So you got your degree in counseling. I was a professional counselor for seven years. I did personal counseling, academic counseling. My biggest focus was academic, but also did career counseling part time. So it not only was it in a good evolution from being a psychology major, but it was also it fit me. In other words, I, you know, I, like I said, people like to come to me and I say, not just, hey, Doug, I'm having a bad day, but I'm just, I'm not sure what to do. I'm a natural problem solver, but also try to extract from that and say, well, let's talk about what's really going on before we get to the problem solving. Tell me a little bit about academic counseling. What is that? So I had the fortune to work with a, basically, I'll call it a startup. It was a part of the university, an athletic study center. So it was a place for the students, athletes to go to get everything from mentoring, guidance, time management, proofreading. We did not do their work. I completed 100%, never, never did their work, but we helped them to do their work. In other words, sometimes they didn't come in with a best understanding of how to use an education system or how to put a paper together or how to, you know, and they got tutoring. So it was really about, you know, enablement, which again I keep finding as this key theme of things I've done over my last several years. It was about enablement and support. And we grew this academic, this athletic study center from a very small organization to some of the NCAA schools actually start reaching out to us and recognizing as an interest. So we got brought into things. It was a great period of my life. I learned a ton about project management, about education, about teaching and support. Wow, that's very cool. Yeah, I'm sure there's a lot of people who'd be very envious of that experience. You work with diverse people, diverse populations. You know, you go from people who, you know, just take a student athlete who was number one in their school, in their state, in their region maybe. And they come into the university being the number one person at XYZ. And now we're the bunch of number ones. It's a mindset change. And also I think it really helped me to understand the need for communication and collaboration even further because you had to take this person who they were great. But how do you help them understand they're great like everybody else is in the same level. And how do you turn that greatness into action that gets seeing observed and used. That's amazing. What a rewarding experience. What was one was one. So then tell me, so you, so what was the transition from counseling. I had an opportunity to go work for the Nielsen company. My best friend worked there. And so you should know because he knew I was doing a lot with technology and starting my computer lab and I was doing my version of technology. It's not, you know, I'm not a SQL programmer. But I got the point with what I had done with both counseling and the career counseling I've done kind of I checked all the boxes. This is cool. This is fun. I felt like there was something more out there. So I interviewed for a sales job. Horrible. I did a horrible interview. It's the one I think in the sales right away. It would just be there. But the something about the guy that I said the guy really liked and he passed me on to a consulting VP there, who brought me in for a second interview. I did something right there. And so I made the switch the switch from education to business. And I remember the second week I'm flying back from a training conference. Looking out the window going a planogram and band brand placement versus cross placement. But like, what have I done. It's just, but it worked out okay. Yeah. So just tell me a little bit about that job. So they originally they tried to turn me into a programmer because there was a big a VBA was huge and we did a lot of customized work for our clients. It's like, you know, it took me through training and they had guys sit with me. And I just I could write a real basic set of code and sort of understand it. But I didn't. It just wasn't me. They really they liked my attitude or anything. So one day my boss said, Hey, I got a project management job for you. And one of our largest clients a manufacturer in Chicago. And you know, I need you to go and kind of take over this project and run it makes okay cool. And you know, they weren't good shape there they like us blah blah blah. So I walk in and I sit down the guys off and say hi I'm Doug I'm here to take over this project of X, Y and Z. He says, I don't know who you are. I don't care who you are I want you and the company out of my building by tomorrow and not to come back. So good friendly conversation. Yeah, I've been with Nielsen at that point maybe five months. You know, the deer in the headlight fully crap. I completely BS my way through the next time it's the conversation saying basically, you know, I'm here to succeed I'm here to make a difference for the cup for this company. I'm here just you know you can kick me out I'll be back the next day and the next day and the next day. Why didn't use that mindset during my sales and review I don't know why. But I mean I on the outside, Mr calm cool and collected sweet inside. And he looked at me for what for like an hour and eventually said okay, you've got one chance don't it up. And so I screwed out there. And because I had a great team and I just decided to make it happen. I, I helped to drive that program we delivered to success for both the companies. I became the subject matter expert for it for the company for Nielsen I helped go out and sell it and product is market it over the next year or so, because I had brought it to decide I was the guy who knew it all about that particular thing. Because of that success, the company who built the tool for us brought me in as a director of operations because they need was an expanding web company is I went from Nielsen to this, this web company. I went from operations and take over team of I think I had 28 people. When I joined there about seeing kind of manage all that. And so just, again, interesting hopscotch of opportunities. So going from counseling to business going. Sorry, go ahead. No, I love that story that that is a story of determination that is a story of believing in yourself and and really taking it forward. There was there was some fake it till you make it but yeah, I had a good friend when I joined the company said you know, this is a new world for you but you've got the ability to make it successful you just have to take it. Yeah. Okay. Nice. Very cool. So, okay, so, so then so you say now you're with this new company. Yeah. So, so tell me what you're doing there and what's what's next. Yeah, I'll do a bit of a hopscotch from there so I ran by how was the basically, you know, there was there was a three leaders of the three leaders of the company, working directly with the founder and the founder and I brought in all the season CEO and myself are kind of the Triumvirate help to continue to put up for put processes in place I helped write a project management manual. I introduced the concept of product marketing to them. I was a handle sales development a lot of just a while was I was a sales person that was an operations leader I was a team manager restructure the team reporting structure, brought some of the little bit of the little bit of corporate minds that I had into what was you know very much typical of the dot boom type of stuff you know like working 24 hours for one day and then being gone for 18 or sleep, just put some structure around that. I had a merger and acquisition that I still came out on a decent side of no money but at least I was still in a good position I wasn't let go. But around that time, the guy, one of the leaders I had worked with at the Nielsen company before was now working for another new company based in, I think it was Jersey, and had been talking to me for a while talking to me for a while and he recruited me, and long story short, went to work for him for another job for year and a half ish. Yeah. So, and then then went back to the Nielsen company because my job changed and they open up a plop to run the consulting division for was the Midwest. That's why my career has been a very puzzling convoluted path that I got been very fortunate. But, you know, if I look at you know the diversity there, it started to sink in on me probably halfway through the journey how much I've been involved with or around data from the one company was called you see CNET, and they look at the standardized barcode documents and the communication the synchronization of all that information. G 10s etc etc, so data. I was the Nielsen the first time Nielsen the second time demographic data for my graphic data person you know people data product, data goes on and on. Yeah, yeah. So then, where do you go from there to to your current job on to text. So, went from Nielsen they went through a layoff series I mean I think I lasted through the fifth one I got let go there. enjoyed that at all being unemployed for a year and a half, which I do not recommend to anybody took a job with a supply chain company again in sales, based in Chicago. I was there maybe three months before me constantly asking about marketing needs. And they basically said okay you're not being a sales guy anymore that's like six months. So they made me the director of marketing. They had a marketing person but they were mainly just wearing one event focus thing. So, got the fun as a director marketing started to build out a marketing team was a small company we have like four or five people the marketing team, and just continue to build that out and grew. I got a company based in Brazil so I got to go to Brazil for work which is really very cool. Especially since my hobby is Brazilian jujitsu, so I've been doing that for almost 15 and a half 16 years. Wow. That company, they did a nice merger they grew but then they started to cut back based on some of the leadership in Brazil making some changes was unemployed for a little bit that I went over to JDA the supply larger supply chain company now called blue yonder. I came on there as a product marketing director, which I loved, because I've been doing product marketing in some forms or fashion, over the last couple years, and I think it was at JDA where I really is really came into my own being. The concept that hadn't been used before is a supply I called the supply chain grid, and I got adopted throughout the company I saw him in Main State was pretty cool to be a product marketing person and having this impact on a global organization like that. You know, I got to do a lot of fun things and learned a lot we're person really good and really smart people I still stay in touch with a couple of them. That was I was at a point where my boss had left. And I wanted to find now it's kind of grow but I was kind of stuck at the director level and I really want to take a VP title as my next segment. And so I changed jobs for a company that was very interesting, got a VP lot job there and four to five weeks and I went I'm in the wrong company. Yeah, it was a, it didn't take long before my yay VP. And I'm working hard but again, it was about it was related to data was world by exchanging transportation data and the signals and everything from ocean vessels to trucks to shipment it was a fascinating fascinating company they're doing they're doing. They do great things just will leave the rest of it out. So I was ended up being recruited by the guy who I used to work for was a JDA to go work for a master data management company. Okay, we're back we're even deeper in the data now. So I worked in master data management for about four years as start out as VP solution strategy, basically, in short, basically VP of product and industry marketing. We had to change the title for a variety of reasons, but ran a team there did a lot of thought leadership a lot of presentations a couple podcasts before we even had a diversity. I don't know if you know Scott, the data whisper, Scott Taylor. Yeah, I've known Scott since the TD links days when I was back at Nielsen so we connected and we continue to stay connected. I got to have a lot of really cool experiences I learned so much when I was there to expand my my marketing tactics vision strategy, how to do things differently better faster. You know, it was, it was a great experience with great people learned a lot more about data management like, you know, going back to me being second grade. Look at him and I learned a ton. So it was a it was a good, a good process, most of it. More and more companies are considering investing in data literacy education, but still have questions about its value purpose and how to get the ball rolling. Introducing the newest monthly webinar series from Dataversity, elevating enterprise data literacy, where we discuss the landscape of data literacy and answer your burning questions. Learn more about this new series and register for free at dataversity.net. It's nice. And then and now you are CMO. Yeah, and now I'm CMO and they went through again couple couple of cuts based on marketing. I had to cut budgets across the thing. But fortunately, I had a good introduction into the recruiting process was going on for this this job, you know, went through, you know, seven or eight people, the part of the process and either they lost their mind or they found the right candidate. I'm not sure. Yes, a joint joint out the text in early November of last year. Congratulations. Yeah, been pretty cool. That's awesome. I love your story. It's it's wonderful love of primes and challenges. Congrats on, yeah, persevering and really just turning it into success. That's amazing. My job is having a lot of good leaders and mentors. And if I gave anybody any advice they go through their career journey is find a or a mentor or more mentors, because even the mentors that might bug you annoy you and make you really they make you think differently and learn differently and respond differently. I would not be where I am right now without some very good leaders behind me. I think that's really great advice and let's come back to that here in that in a minute. So, onto text so now you've worked with data, especially after working with an MDM company and going through that. So what is your definition of data. We have to go in. So before that has used to drives and my colleagues much because I use it a lot, but it's the difference in my mind between digitization and digitalization. Okay, so I've got, I got my phone so I take a picture of me. Okay, I've now created an item of data. So I just I've got you know it's it's an image of me so it's a it's unstructured data but it's data. So I want to, so I've now I've now digitized me as a data point, but digital data digital by itself does nothing. If I then send that picture up to Google photos as an example. Now I can potentially digitalize that because you know they can scan me and a dog and this peer here the connection here, and maybe you look like this person or you get added to Google search index. So digitalize my data into something that is being used as a as an activity versus just a, hey it's a great selfie. That's one way to look at data it's it's it's information it's not information sorry information is different data is just a piece of something that we then have to apply context interpretation information, information, a question, a need. So make sure me it's just a picture it's nothing until somebody goes, hey we need a profile pick of Doug for, or let's do a face matching game and see what, you know, that becomes useful. Yeah. I love that I love that definition so and tell me, especially in marketing I assume you use a lot of data in your daily job. I rely on people are really good at using it give me data. Yes, because it's ironic you know I'm the guys around data for you. I'm not a heavy analytics person. I'm very good at messaging and positioning and spotting patterns and things that don't make sense as part of data. But I'm not a data analytics person I've got a fantastic marketing director who lives for understanding Google analytics and the details. Not just looking at it and saying hey here's something we should change here because of this. We do the same thing with our ABM campaigns, make sure analyzing data properly get the right results. I probably do use a lot more data in my thinking that I that I like to acknowledge because I like to really like realize reading is data. Reading a sentence and learning about data mesh or data fabric or knowledge graphs or semantic technology or like is reading so bringing data in. In order for me to do things with its messaging positioning giving guidance and vision, you know, suggesting changes for our products demos. So it's, you're making me think I like this. I love it too and I love that you talk about reading because that hasn't been brought up before and that you're very, that's very true you're you're consuming data as you're learning anything. That's great. I do my wife a lot of credit because one day and I'm like this loads of transition here is one day. She's listening to me talking my job for ad nauseam. I explained the difference between MDM and knowledge graphs because she understands the pieces what talked about and she said, so MDM is like the letters of the alphabet and knowledge graph is like a sentence. Like, I got really quiet in the car for a while she's like, I get it wrong like, no that's really good. I kind of added to that it was like it's like they create the sentence because now it adds context and meaning to the letters. Right. But that truly is how you look at data is you just start up a little something. You know, from that something into information. And then have an information structured in a way that now you can get some insights out of work, you know, even just wisdom to say now I learned something new. So, I thought it was a, I actually used it on my briefing documents for an event and people like it so it was good. That is very good. Having that experience with data and so do you see the importance of data management and the number of jobs working with data increasing or decreasing over the next 10 years and why 10 is a hard one because of all the changes just in the last nine months that have freaked out a lot of chat GPT and generative AI and LLMs. That said, I can't see the jobs going down because people who understand how to get to the data how to interpret the data how to connect the data, you know, feel like data architects did engineers. But I think also data storytellers the people who can then make sense of the data you get people are really really good at bringing it all together, but they can't tell you what to do with it as a result of. And so people who can take that analytic brain, the what if and to tell the story about what is data means, you know, here's some suggestions here's some guidance. So then also I think data creatives I'm not sure that's the right term, but people can look at what comes out of data and apply an interpretation to that, that, you know, you and I might not think about because we think like this and very people are very creative and data centric. What if you turn the data like that and you know, I have a vision in my head of like when Tony Stark and Iron Man has this big visual thing he's rotating around. But that's, that's how I approach a lot of problems I approach I look at I deal with is. Okay, what I look at it from the left hand side and underneath the bed as I can I see things a little more clearly now I can't do that with data all the time. But there are people who have that ability to truly connect the dots and make sense of it so long answer I don't. I think somebody who's got an interest in a data career, their biggest challenges which part. Oh, so so so tell me about that so. So what advice then would you give to people looking to an a data career how do they find which part. Yeah, I'm a huge fan of internships you having come from the career counseling world for years ago internships. You know, ride alongs. These are very helpful in ton of resources on the internet, but everything from watching webinars just get a sense of no it doesn't sound like me it doesn't sound interesting. Changing a mindset that not every job sits behind a desk for eight hours a day. Well, you just you know just poking around learning asking people questions paying attention to podcasts like you're putting together to say, Oh, there's no there's a job I didn't even know existed that to make that hop back. That's why I got into project management I was back at my in my university job. They needed to install a whole new computer lab and I was supposed I was taking over the job and they said, well making a contract was a contract job for the summer. Manager for blah, blah, blah, that sounds like what I like to do. But I never knew there was a job or a title like that like. Yeah, cool. You mentioned before getting mentors. Yeah, how have you found your mentors and throughout your career. I mean, I've been a little fortunate in that I've worked I've had people that I've worked for and with that have been very sharp. And for me so much just come down to is this person the right feel for what I need to try to learn why I need to challenge myself. Somebody I will trust to poke at my holes in other words Doug Doug doesn't know this stuff yet and you know hey Doug you need to add these. People you trust, who are not just smart, but good at helping you to become smarter. And that's, that's a hard one to easily go is that in the phone book is in my. But I think, you know, even just asking people, you know, hey, I'm looking to help me, you know, find somebody who can make me better smarter at ABM. I understand how to do, you know, sequel joins more effectively or who's been through this, you know, and start from the beginning just asking questions. Having that bit of boldness that I'm trying and you know positioning that I'm trying to better myself as a as a playing and you've been a successful career with butter up help me to understand things. I think people in generally are always like, like to help. Yeah, yeah, that's amazing. I love that. I love that. And, and I love that you aren't taking this journey by yourself. You've had help along the way. Yeah. I don't think anyone can make it on their own. That's one of the, one of the harder points when you get to being a C level is that it's a little harder to get, you know, mentors that level, not that level, I'm not saying that right. But, you know, when you're a VP, there's always somebody above you a CMO. I mean, I got stuff going to see you I can talk to what he's got you know he's got the business he's running. So I'm actually I'm trying to get back in touch with my my my former CMO because he and I always played well together. It's just a, here's one thing about doing anything. No, you're stupid. Don't do this. Thumb from the chest and go on. But, you know, we've always been good about bouncing ideas off of each other. So yeah, that's again, I need to be vulnerable say I'm not always sure what I'm doing. I love that. That's great. And you seem to have followed your passion, like, you know, initially going into counseling because that was a good fit for you, you know, and following passion of, of what's next and really finding something that works for you, finding a company that didn't work for you and saying, okay, I need to move. So yeah, that's really amazing. Any other advice you give to people getting into a career and data management. Taking the time to learn more and the reason I really emphasize that is again, I was in the MDM company, we did data management. And I've gone to three or four conferences just this year who are focusing on data management. Well, it's a data analytics conference. It's data management. And so I try to look at the world from how I just walked into it. So I just walked into this conference and I know I need a data management solution of some kind. That's all I know. And you've got 90 vendors saying, oh, you do data management. I mean, data diversity does data management. It's helping to break down what is it that I'm most interested in. As you said earlier, passionate about, what is that? What is that of calling to me? Is it, you know, hands on coding? Is it interpretation? Just, you know, taking the time to learn. Absolutely. And do you find that you are using all your experiences in your current role, including your, your counseling? Yes, definitely. I mean, I can, there's, there's times I go looking by the way I'm getting lightning here. So I'm hoping I don't lose power. That would be better. Yeah, I think I definitely think so. And that's one of the things when I got counseling into the business, I was I asked myself the question is just how is this going to translate. And it didn't take more than I think a couple of years where I really, really realized that it's the same thing. How are you today? What are you here to do? How can I help you fix your problems? The challenges, solutions, plug it in. You know, what do you think of the challenges? Again, getting people to talk and articulate themselves. And then getting to, you know, here to identify a plan in order to solve that. The only thing I do look back that I find is amusing is, you know, growing up I was the kid my mom said you need to enunciate. You need to slow down. You need to start and stop mumbling. And now from our last, I guess, eight years of jobs, I've been being the guy who's out there talking up on stage presenting I'm doing podcast like, I'm the mumbling. Oh, no, you've been very well spoken practice, I guess. Indeed. Well, Doug, this has been great so but I would be remiss if I didn't ask if how people if people were curious about onto text and in obtaining a knowledge graph what how would they get a hold of onto text. There's several ways I always I always suggest our LinkedIn, you know, when LinkedIn location, you know, just onto text, you know, and, you know, on the LinkedIn, because we post a lot of informational pieces there case studies conversations again as part of education, depending where they're looking just help some understand what is that particular piece of the world not just knowledge graphs with semantic technology etc. Obviously our website on you know onto text calm. I'm on LinkedIn feel free to reach out to me and just ask a question happy to help out. It's just, it's all about learning. Oh, I love it. Thank you so much and we'll get those links from you and get it posted to the podcast page as well. So, Doug, I really enjoyed this conversation I really love your journey. So congratulations on on where you are and and the journey taken. Thanks to the forum to share it again there's there's there's there's days I just sit here in amazement going. Really cool. I understand that very much. Thank you again so much. And to all of our listeners out there. If you'd like to keep up to date in the latest in podcasts and in the latest in data management education you may go to data or city net forward slash so subscribe. Until next time. Thank you for listening to data for city talks, a podcast brought to you by data for city subscribe to our newsletter for podcasts updates and information about our free educational webinars at data for city net forward slash subscribe.