 Welcome to Breeders Syndicate, the only cannabis show breaking down the myths and history in cannabis. I'm Matthew, seed maker for over a decade and a half and this is my journey into finding my truth in this wild world of cannabis. I invite you to join me and the Canaluminati by strapping into the passenger seat, but be warned it's not always pretty. With the invasion of corporate culture into cannabis it's getting even more muddy, which is why I've made it my mission to have a permanent record before all the history is lost and buried under a pile of cookies. We're the traditional market. Syndicate is a collection of seed makers that want to push back against all the smoking mirrors. In doing so we will continue to ruffle the feathers of those who oppose and my personal mission has become much bigger than myself. Welcome to the Cannabis Underground. This is the Revolution. Hello everyone, welcome to the Breeders Syndicate. I am Thousandfold and tonight I will be hosting in place of Matt Riot. Unfortunately we're still without Matt. Last recording he wasn't well, he has recovered but he's now got to clear like a huge backlog of like orders and various admin and also edit the last episode. So yeah unfortunately we will be without Matt once again. So we have the youth here again. We have local Farmer Dan, Big Earn, local and Big Earn obviously from the last Indoor Growers episode at Farmer Dan. I'm sure you would have seen by now. He's also been helping us a lot. I think he's had to record like three times in the last week because we've been backed up as well. Yeah so it's been quite the time but it's also been really good. We are unfortunately without Spindle tonight as well who is also unwell. So hope he feels better soon. But yeah today we will be talking about flowering. So we're going to match the Outdoor Growers who had their flowering episode last time and to kick us off I think it was a good idea by Dan for everyone to just talk a little bit about the setup they're working with and have much detail that you guys want to just so that like we can set the scene a bit for the flowering conversation. Yeah I'll kick us off. Right now for my home setup like I do a few plants outside every year but for my indoor I kind of just have a little four by four tent. I have a little one by four veg which I should have gotten bigger so I like to keep a lot of plants. I have just like a little AC unit like a window ducted one that I cut a hole in the side of it and just kind of mounted it there and sealed it up and I rock a spider 2p LED and then in the veg side just a few bar LEDs. So really basic kind of just enough to get it done and hold on to plants. Yeah and then well first off I'm gonna mention a toweline and say if you guys are crazy I apologize they do not like the trick or treaters. I do want to say I will say that I hadn't I forgot there would be Halloween for you guys so thank you for showing up on hell sorry. Yeah absolutely I'm dressed as Batman right now so just picture that everybody. So but yeah so I have like a kind of like perpetual kind of setup. I have like a few you know different like bar LEDs like I'm not here to I wouldn't like necessarily plug an LED super hard or anything but in my main flowering tent I have like a Grover's Choice light in there and I use some of the like UV bars with it and I use like the AC Infinity stuff you know just to automate the environmental control. Yeah I forgot to mention that too yeah I got the same AC Infinity controller just because it's like so modular like they have like plugs that you can plug your AC in it into and like your D-homes and kind of have a lot more control than you normally would with a home grow setup. Yeah so I currently have a five by five flower space with a I think it's an 800 watt LED I don't know what it like draws out the wall but that's what it's advertised at and I typically grow in like one gallon pots for flower just to kind of see a number of things and like the home he said some AC Infinity like eight inch fans and stuff like that to remove air and then I have some bedge closets throughout the house but yeah that's pretty much my girl. Do all of you perpetually flower more or less? Yeah that's kind of working on that now yeah cool. Yeah yeah so I try to you know like I like to run through things one time and keep them backed up and then you know rerun from there that kind of thing so that's kind of like in my like kind of perpetual thing is just being able to look through stuff because I am still very new and just kind of you know trying to figure out what I like and stuff. I'll also mention that I do have like racks or a rack in my bedge space and that helps utilize space but yeah same mine's doubled here. I just wanted to add that just to kind of give a better picture I guess. I feel like it's a mandatory if you like really want to pop seeds and keep backups and stuff like a 2x4 tent like fills up real quick. Right that second tier really helps. Yeah there was a company that used to sell a three tiered one that came with its own rack that perfectly fit in the tent so you didn't have to like line it up and I really missed the one that I got rid of I should have kept that thing but yeah I don't really like perpetual very well because of my like limited space if I had even just like one more tent you know yeah my house is a little on the smaller side and so I'm lucky that I get to keep what I do and so I'm I kind of like don't plan it out well as well as I should and I end up like having the bedge in the main space for a decent amount of time. You reminded me that we talked about these like possible idea to have these little isolated what would you call them like? Yeah like a grow cabinet type of thing like I wanted to like have like a different flowering chamber it doesn't have to be very big I'm only ever reversing like one thing at a time and so that could be like two small little one gallon pots or something like that but I wanted to like build a desk that had like one side for reversals and then like another side where I could like then immediately take the pollen and dust stuff in that I wanted to work with without sacrificing you know a four by four tent and making you know you could make a pound of seed or more in a four by four tent so it's a yeah a little overkill for most of the stuff I'm trying to do I don't you know sell my seeds so. No that's cool that's really cool okay well thanks for thanks all of you for letting us kind of have a bit more context for your you're a sit-up maybe the next thing that I wanted to prompt just before we dive like right in is what are the first thoughts that come to mind when I say like prepare to flip or like flipping or transition to flower? I guess two things that I really consider is like the health of your plants and then the size because like you don't want to flower things that are like too big because I've done that I don't know how many times but there's a sense of becoming more of a mess than anything but also like flowering a healthy plant is like your best bet because it's not gonna like start starving off the bat so I don't know that's just my opinion though. Yeah I tend to kind of do the same stuff like when I'm like getting ready to like preparing like you know whatever cross it is that I'm like I'm gonna flower all of them in one go or if I'm gonna kind of like break it up into multiple runs that kind of stuff when you start getting some numbers it can be a little bit overwhelming as far as like just looking through individual plants and I kind of want to know like each plant individually so that's like a thing that I come you know I always think about is like how many of these plants can I really do and like be able to focus my attention on them. Something else too is like I like to make sure that those plants are backed up before I flip them sometimes you know it's I'm not always lucky but that's just a that's a plus. When I first started growing I remember one time I put a bunch of those five by five veg pots and I gridded them out with blue dream in my tent and like it was great like that plant will put on like an epic single cola and you'll just have like you know a sea of 48 tops it was great but a lot of stuff won't do that. I think I was talking to I think I was definitely going to earn I can't remember who else was in the conversation like just yesterday I think we were talking about there being this threshold in terms of the number of plants like that each individual can manage beyond which like they stop becoming they stop really seeming like individual plants and they're just more like a mass if that makes sense. Yeah yeah for sure and I think it's different for everyone as well where that threshold is because obviously that depends on like your time energy you know resources all that. Yeah yeah and it all depends on like yeah like what what you're allowed to do and like what works for you and so you know it's it's always about just like getting to know your plants and so anyway but yeah I like to look at just like the size if I know the variety like you can kind of start making some assumptions based on like how it's going to feed and like your media that you're going to put it in and like what it prefers but I feel like a good base is always just like a cocoa or a soil run and yeah two or three gallon pot and you don't have to do like the one giant 20 gallon pot in there I've seen other people do that too and I've never quite understood it but um I did have a quick question for you Dan. Yeah when you did the the single cola blue dream like sea of green did you find that that like yielded as much as like you know a couple fully grown three gallon pots or like what was like yield like it was like just slightly lower I think but it was all tops and so it was like nicer you know and at that time like a lot of people did like a lot of like scrub and sea of green style plantings with like hydro and stuff and so it was like more common I feel like at that point than it is now yeah I would try to do that again but it's just so hard when you don't have like a single variety to run at the same time like yeah this was one clone on a flood tray so it was like pretty pretty automated and it was in like two for I've done a four by eight with uh I don't know like 13 different varieties at one time and it was just like it wasn't like hard but it was just good enough to get like I want to say like an okay representation of what things can be I don't know it wasn't my strongest grow but it was nice to see a lot of stuff yeah yeah exactly and that's what I kind of do with my home stuff is just like looking through different populations and trying to find cool plants and so I'm always kind of trying to like min max what I can fit for like the effort and to get the quality and so it's a challenge sometimes though I set myself up for failure last time and I put like I don't know it was like 16 three gallons and they were just like edge to edge and it was just like a mess by the end of it yeah I wasn't I didn't actually like any of it either so um so this is my first time actually growing out of like three gallon cocoa and I'm like fucking mind-blowing at how massive the fucking buds get yeah because I like flower strictly in ones and like in ones I could get pretty sizable buds mm-hmm man the threes I'm just like holy fuck like man should I switch over like I don't know but I kind of just like to pop a bunch of seeds in it the ones kind of just see suit my model the most yeah for like the veg space I have to keeping any like moms even in three gallons it cuts me down like super super limited and so um you know it's just yeah it could just be a challenge on those bigger pots but it's so much more work when you're having a water twice a day in a one gallon yeah you know it's a it's I need to set up an irrigation system off also like that would make my life so much easier if I just had a five gallon bucket or something like that outside the tent just plumbed in like super basic on a sump or something like that and it probably wouldn't be very accurate as far as like water distribution each pot but it would make my life a whole lot easier it helps keep him alive right so you can focus on other things even I guess I could just have it on a backup and just have it at like 24 hours or whatever and just have it do you know like a really quick water just so nothing dies if I miss something but you know yeah totally I'm like it just kind of sucks always being tied down to the house right yeah yeah exactly yeah you can't go anywhere yeah oh man it it's amazing to me like how stress how stressful it is to even plan like a few days away now yeah man yeah sometimes I feel I really feel bad for the fucking plant sitter because like I have a bunch of solos like one gallon pots and flour and stuff and I'm like oh my god like their life is about to be hell for an entire week but yeah yeah and you always notice when you come back they're not they're not very happy dude oh my god I was dude I was really stoked to see this up and it haze because it was looking really nice and then I come back and like there's just like deficiencies and I'm just like oh man like it doesn't look terrible but it could have been better it could have gone better but here nor there I guess yeah well the only reason I brought like all this up is because I feel like it kind of like leads into the next topic thousand oh it definitely does yeah and well you know like like with any of these topics will end up looping back inevitably right so um yeah so I guess in terms of like drilling into various aspects of the growth that you might be thinking of when you are preparing to flip um obviously I already mentioned some of these things but um could talk about you know any training that you do before before flip any like what kind of feed changes you're preparing to do you know lides ipm any of that really um open to anyone yeah so like I've done a lot of different things you know like I feel like trellis in the end is the way to go even on like a four by four um it just limits access and movement so much that I like avoid doing it even though it's so fucking helpful um because it just makes everything fixed at that point and then you're kind of crawling on your hands and knees trying to get little scoops of water to the right plants and stuff and so like I've I've been worried about getting older and having to like crawl around and stuff I'm starting to do I'm starting to worry now yeah I mean to a certain degree I mean I've already got my own like you know orthopedic injuries and stuff like that and so you know like I have a bad shoulder and a bad knee already and so uh it definitely makes it more complicated so that's why I kind of still stick with like stakes even though like I've almost lost an eye a few times to like bamboo and plastic stakes um but uh it just like lets me be able to move plants out and uh you know like pull a plant out to do de-leafing and stuff instead of trying to like work in that cramped space in the tent even though at the end of the day like I would just love to have a trellis and so um yeah that's that's kind of what I was thinking about that yeah I so like I kind of have a little bit of a process down at this point where I will like uh try to get like a good apical cutting off of my seed mom that I can root up and then uh then I have this plant that's like essentially topped and like ready to kind of be like trained out and flowered um so that's kind of what I've been doing so I'll you know I have this plant that's topped it's got two main tops and then I'll use just like some clips in on the side of the pot and a little bit of wire and just like kind of spread the plants out just a little bit at the start um and then later on I'll I'll end up using like bamboo stakes just for the reasons that Dan is mentioning like trellis is really nice as far as like getting like a super even canopy goes I think it's probably like probably the best way you know I mean it's like a grit at the same level um but it's just so tough for me like if I'm in a five by five um I have mine like sitting in the corner of my basement so the back right corner of my is like really hard to get to so um yeah so I take my plants out and hand water them and do all that stuff so I can look at them and you know deal with and all that stuff so I as much as I like things about trellis it just makes it so hard to do everything so um so yeah that's kind of like what I'm I'm kind of just thinking about like what looks like my plant to be super healthy I want the roots to look good and I just want to feel confident about flipping that we're going into like ahead of the game you know nice did you get a bunch of trick-or-treaters right then I did I'm sorry my dog is going at these three volts and it adds some festive you know vibes to the episode very festive local yeah um so I pretty much just like top my plants a little bit before flower and then flip them but I mean nothing really out of the ordinary how about like um how about in terms of like other things I imagine by this point you know your IPM if you were doing any you know needed to have been uh how am I what am I saying basically like by the time you get to flower you shouldn't be doing any more IPM right like all that stuff should have happened like up until this point um what about what about like feeding during flip okay maybe we move into into the actual like a first few weeks of flowering now then I mean well I kind of don't spray anything during flower I mean I don't release beneficials either even though I should like nematodes and other beneficial mites um but that gets expensive and yeah I don't know um what do you do for your prep and veg just to keep everything clean before you get there um so like honestly I'm a huge user of fucking uh self-oil x dude I don't know like it's it's just like it gets everything yeah yeah um it just sucks like you can't drench it obviously but like I mean other than that like it gets all soft-bodied insects which is like 99% of the problems that people run into I've never really had a PM issue um but people say you can use it for that I I don't know um but um yeah I've used like uh Grand Devo in the past um Regalia I've had like gigantic 5.0 but that shit is fucking ridiculously expensive all of that shit you just listed as dude yeah it's it's hard and the reason why I like get self-oil is because it's like 80 dollars for like two and a half gallons and like that'll last you forever yeah I've just had like issues finding like a good dilution but like I didn't stick with the self-oil very long just because yeah well I already knew all these other things that like I had tried and worked for me um so like I tried to do like enzyme sprays early on like a nuke um or a Dr. Zimes and then like a few weeks before flower um if we're looking at like I don't know like a six week time frame from sprouting a seed to flipping it maybe a little longer I'll save like those last like two or three weeks and two sprays and I'll get some sulfur on the plant micronized sulfur nice um so I've tried to use like a fucking nuke or Dr. Zimes but every time it's just like lead to phyto toxicity like even at their lowest dosage and I'm just like you know what like I don't know like it's just you can't let any light on it at all yeah it's it's it's a tough one so I kind of just like use the oil and my plants like way happy after it too so yeah yeah that's the thing I'll say is that um I had some spider mite issues in my nursery earlier this year and I spoke to local about it um and mineral oil spray did actually work out pretty well for me just using regularly um which I was grateful for because I know I know spider mites can get really out of hand really quick yeah yeah you might be using a shop back to clean them off your buds at the end at that point you know when they get real bad um yeah yeah so I actually you guys are kind of convincing me I kind of want to go back and try it now but I always like try to do a few different things just like mix mode of action and like the oils same thing as the enzymes kind of limit you on like what else you can use but yeah that's an interesting point yeah that's kind of why I got like some of the venerate stuff because I was like you know like I mean well I guess the way I think of it is like the sulfur is like or not sulfur the self-oil X or it's a horticulture oil I guess um in any instance um like no bug can really gain adaptability because like you're literally like suffocating it by like clogging its pores with oils so it's like you're not going to gain a resistance but like I still do want like a mode of action to get things that maybe didn't get hit the first time or whatever you know what I mean like it's it's just a practice but I don't know diversity of tactics is always good for this kind of totally and I think like the limiting like factor for a lot of people's like money is uh IPM is fucking expensive man like I guess like yeah it's it's it is expensive but it's worth it like yeah and like people okay I was just gonna say like the reality of it is it's like if you're taking cuts in or anything like that it's like you're gonna have to like have an IPM yeah and so like if people listening like kind of don't know what we're talking about it's more just that like a different sprays will have a different mode of action of how they're killing insects and so like with the mineral oil example of the horticulture horticultural oil um bugs breathe through small pores on their abdomen and not out of their mouths and head and so if you cover that in oil they can't breathe and they suffocate and die hence like the suffix oil whereas like there are other sprays that have like an active component that's a neurotoxin or something like that of that nature or like the enzyme sprays do really well at literally like dissolving their exoskeleton and so um yeah there's a bunch of different ways to attack the same bug and you know some are more effective than others what is the strategy for light lighting uh when you're when you're flipping for you guys i mean i kind of run my light um at 80% and then kind of maybe i'll go to 90 but 100% it's like way too intense in my opinion but that 80 to 90 range is like kind of where i'd like to be um but yeah i don't know i don't really fuck around with lighting too much like that um but yeah yeah i use my um i i use that app on uh iphone photon something like just kind of get like a general idea of where my lighting is um you know uh i'm not gonna speak to its accuracy as far as like compared to a um actual like you know par meter um because i don't have a par meter i'm cheap and and i'm not gonna spend $500 uh to get like kind of pretty much you don't want to buy bruce bugby's light meter no not particularly no they're gonna go after you in the comments again bro listen bruce bugs me sorry i sorry i'll just i'll just say real quick sorry $500 yeah do their money i'll apologize to bruce bugby right now and just say sorry if that's yeah unnecessary stray yeah so i use the um the photon there's a guy that i used to watch on youtube that does some like white reviews and stuff um that has done uh side by side comparisons of the app with the par meter and it was like it was close enough that i felt comfortable to use it so um so i use that and just kind of get myself into like a decent range um i kind of like to um i don't want to be coming in cooking on the lights at the beginning of flower because i want to have some like room to go as plants start to you know stretch and that kind of thing um so i i do kind of like to be on like the lower end of where i want to be to start just so i have you know some room to increase through flower um i'll also mention just because urn was saying that he'll like gradually increase the lighter um but um i'll raise my light to like the absolute like highest it can be like like height wise um and then i'll increase the intensity to like 80 to 90 percent so it's not like it's right up on them or anything yeah i can give like a little context into like the commercial side of it where it's a lot of commercial grow rooms kind of hang out around 650 to 750 micromoles of light the canopy height and um a lot of these lights will push 2000 if you have it dropped right on top of your canopy and so like one of the things i was thinking about is like a newer grower who just got a light for the first time and doesn't really have any experience with it um you're kind of stuck with trial and error to see like what the plants you're working with will like that's coming out of that light but i didn't actually know about this app that urn was talking about and so i'm going to have to check that out as well um because i think that could be really useful um i'll also mention too like i'm a pretty recent led grower i used to grow a lot under cmh um and i've noticed that led kind of has its own like said of nutritional problems that doesn't particularly come with cmh like i found cmh plants to kind of just always look healthy like there's no weird like discoloration in the leaf or any of that but that's just been my observation um but what did you find was like lacking i don't know like it just uh it kind of always like seemed to be either like magnesium or potassium or something like that yeah that's kind of what i've seen too is like some potassium sulfate helps a lot with that led stress like the red stems and the the kind of yellowing of the leaves yeah then that's like something that i don't have at the moment is like anything to manipulate potassium independently and i like that would fucking help a lot yeah i think we were actually like just talking about that i was actually gonna say i actually i actually just started using that um just like a that potassium supplement from um nectar for the gods uh i can't remember the name of it it doesn't matter who it came from but it's a potassium and um yeah i think it seems to like i i did a foliar spray in early flower on these um banana haze plants that i'm growing because one of them stretched like pretty hard and just had some i mean it didn't look like it just looked like they're on the edge of underfed kind of you know what i mean it's not it's like you look at it and you're like this plant doesn't look like incredible but it doesn't look bad either uh so i don't know so i tried that and it does seem to be helping and now i've just been using it like it's like just mixing it in with my feed like once once a week or whatever and it seems to have not that issue um but yeah i i think that i think like i started with led so i never had that that learning curve coming you know uh like from yes i was also born like that so i just think like i think that like i don't have i feel like i haven't reigned into some of these problems and it's not necessarily because i'm like good or anything like that or better than anyone it's just because like i that's where i started and like i got rid of those issues quickly or whatever i don't know cool i mean yeah anything else about feeding then since we're also touching on that a bit yeah yeah um i guess with feeding like especially if you're early on like going and getting like a basic like three or four part program is um not a bad thing at all i think you're going to be so much happier with the results than if you try and like reinvent the wheel because you can piece it together a little cheaper and make stock solutions and do all that but for the effort like you're probably going to have a steeper learning curve learning how to like formulate a recipe more than just even learning to grow weed and so uh i know a lot of the guys on here like to rock canna i've used can in the past and i really like it um i kind of like something a little simpler and so like i've been rocking cutting edge again because that's what i started out with earlier on and used to grow really nice weed with it and so i've just kind of added a few organic supplements along the way to like a the terp tea for roots organic is a nice like dry amendment powder just to give a nice little boost here and there and uh kind of diversify what you're offering the plant so it can do its thing yeah um so i've grown a few different with a few different nutrients with the cocoa stuff um like i've done the the lucas like the two-part like with uh added epsom salts so my water is pretty high in calcium so like calm ag was never really like a solution to any of my fucking problems ever um but it was like a quote on quote lucas modified you know type of thing um i've done like the maxi bloom um lucas style thing like with the seven and a half grams of like maxi bloom to one gallon of water um that works the same as lucas i think it's really nice uh the only downfalls it's a bitch to fucking dissolve dude like even with hot water you're struggling um i've done the jacks three two one um i'll say like you'll get really nice sizable plants but like the issue with it is it doesn't work for all strains like it won't work for something like a blueberry i don't know like it i've seen like fucking like cushments and all that kind of stuff like crushed under that kind of jacks three two one like 3.0 ec kind of thing um yeah canna um i've liked it but i'll be 100 honest man like the lucas formula kind of just like gives the nicest average for the amount of like money that you put in um of everything i've tried so far with cocoa like i've done general hydro three part i've done like you know several different like nutrient lines i did you know i i don't know i i think like if you get like a decent nutrient program you're it's going to be okay for the most part you know i mean um i do try to think about like i noticed like with canna um like my my water comes out like very very soft like 10 ppm um so i i do use some cal mag you know um but if i mix like if i mix like full-shrink flour notes with can with you know uh some cal mag and that kind of stuff you know quickly you're getting up into this like two and a half three sea range where i don't really want to be feeding like super hot like that you know um so i've been trying to just kind of break my feedings up a little bit and like kind of like do do likes you know like can on one day and then on the next watering do um you know some cal mag and like the potassium and you know that kind of thing just kind of trying to break it up a little bit and just i you know i'm still very much just trying to find like where i like to be yeah like one of these things that the dudes at the grow shop i used to work out i was used to say when i was like first learning about things is like it all works then like it's uh it's about what's cheapest you know and so like i've actually grown pretty good weed with just like 2020 and then zero 50 50 and i would fully or spray sea green which is like a fish hydrolysate like compost tea extract and um as long as you have like good soil it's makes life a whole lot more forgiving that's like something i'm relearning with like pro mix and like more inert hydro style peep medias and with cocoa is that um uh having like a really well blended like a um royal gold makes really good soil it's kind of like what i'm thinking of and uh forest floor organics up in eugene organ or they're just out the eugene but they make really great soil with byproduct from the logging industry up here and they it's all composted really nicely in their yard and um i've noticed that not using that i grow way dumpier weed kind of regardless of the the nutrients and so having a really nice soil blend can help make your life a lot easier especially earlier on before you've got your whole system dialed and for uh you know you really get to know what you're doing i want to come back to feeding tactics at like distinct points of flower but i think uh if we can like maybe you just wrap up this little bit on like general thoughts on like uh the transition and all that um so other questions i had were like how do you all deal with like managing humidity airflow how much cleaning up is happening uh around the stretch like are you pruning defoliating much lollipopping all that yeah i i've done it a bunch of different ways like i used to do the lollipop style because even with like a room kind of stacked with gamitas like it just doesn't you don't really get amazing light penetration and uh i feel like i was leaving a lot of weight on the table by stripping really heavily up to the first trellis and um the kind of the style i'm more going for now is a little bit more defoliating but consistently to maintain that light penetration all the way down and so i don't really go hard on default i kind of just like every time i'm checking in i take a few leaves here or there for kind of just open up certain flowering spots yeah i kind of tend to do the same thing as far as defoliation goes like when i'm i take like i said like um i'm in three gallon cocoa so and i water like hand water take them out set them on my bench and like you know that kind of thing so um i'll take them out like during flower i'm watering sometimes daily maybe every other day you know so i'll take these plants out and like just kind of go through and just look and like if there's stuff that like is blocking or like looks like it's not getting that much light i'll you know i'll remove it i'm not like lolly popping but i do remove some of the like lower buds and stuff just that i know we're gonna end up being just like you know kind of boofy and stuff that like i don't really want to mess with anyways so i'll get rid of that stuff and then otherwise i kind of just try to leave them alone i like leaving like a very kind of certain like uh ratio i guess of like laughy or popcorning stuff at the bottom just because like that's the stuff that i'll just quick dry and like get to use as samples early on but yeah local yeah um i'll like so i wouldn't say like i lollipop my plants particularly because like you know i don't get them like that like fucking wide or whatever um because like i crowd my tent with like one gallon pots so i kind of just strip all the lower stuff and like let them like shoot up instead of like out wide um but yeah other than that like there's no specific like shape that i go for other than the like making sure they're not bumping into each other and stuff like that um the one thing i've noticed with leds is like the light penetration with them so it is nice to get some of that larphy stuff but i'm kind of on you with that one thousand um i don't like like pick it out particularly because i do like to smoke it early on and i am a little lazy old man well and like what some people do especially like outdoor growers and greenhouse guys like if you have the ability to and the space and no restrictions about it is um a lot of people will take tops and like kind of take the top half of the plant and then leave the lowers for another like week to 10 days to let them firm up a little bit too yeah yeah and so like um especially outdoor on like larger plants that's like really key because that interior canopy is never quite as done as those top extremities um yeah so um yeah i know you were asking about like feeding so one thing like i've noticed with a lot of plants is like you can kind of continue that like same veg diet all the way through and then there's some that'll take like a full strained veg um and then you like try to apply that into flower and i've noticed some of them will like show like some nitrogen toxicity like a little bit of flying on like the new growth and stuff and so i'll just kind of subtract from like the part that contains a little more nitrogen but other than that like it's kind of like it's it's hard to know when you like pop seeds and you're throwing them into flower the first time but like exactly i can go yeah the second go around and like that's when you can kind of make your tweaks and kind of adjust each um individuals like um formula and shit like that but yeah it makes sense because it's like you can't really play catch up in flower exactly yeah uh just quickly i think you all mentioned this already when you were talking about your setups but uh humidity control ac's dehumidifiers um so i'll i'll have my ac running like all the time i like to get like cooler nighttime temps um but like in terms of like humidity and stuff since i have like the ac running it does get a little cool and dry but i'll also have like fan like the small like um not like uh desktop fans but they're like i don't know 12 inch fans some like that 14 inch like on the front floor and then the back floor um and then they'll move air on the floor and then i have some strap to the top of the tent like right at the entrance um but that's really it for air movement yeah i have just like a small dehum um inside the tent that i use um luckily nowadays there's actually small dehus that actually work um they didn't used to be that way so like when i first started growing even if you had a four by four tent like you kind of had to figure out how to work in this you know like two foot tall by like a foot wide by like eight to ten inches like this just big unit almost the size of a small ac that like you had to just like cram in the tent with it you know or else you just had like no real control over that i have a question here about this like in my mind i thought it would be somehow i don't know if more effective is the right term but i thought that like it was the lung worm that should be dehumidified not the like inside space because that space is you know having air kind of going like passing through it yeah um but i don't know i'm curious what yeah so so mine's kind of set up on a timed exhaust and so like i'm not always exhausting but it's set up on a timer to where it does it like once an hour for like 15 minutes uh and then i have my ac kind of like blowing like pulling from my lung room which is just my office you know um and that's kind of inflexing cooler or you know refreshing there a little more often because if you think about it with your ac um unless your whole room is ac it kind of just depends on where you live because when i used to live on the coast we didn't need ac we just pulled in that 65 degree air from outside and at night it goes down to like 45 um but that air was always really humid you know so that just meant more dehumbs that you need but you don't have ac luckily acs act as the humidifiers all on their own and so um a lot of people especially in like california where it's drier for a lot of the year you can get by without a dehe at all yeah so i was going to say i use um like as far as like the lung room kind of situation is it's my basement you know so uh i just want my basement to be generally dry uh just like being like a good house owner kind of thing you know but um so uh i do have like a some of those like portable um acs i have two of them but really i only use one of them most of the time um i have a hose hooked up to it and i'll run it in dry mode and just let it um dehumidify constantly um because like this year uh like until today actually it's cold now but um it's been like 85 percent humidity here like all summer it seems like so it's i mean it's been a even to just get me get me down to like 60 percent humidity is about as far as i've been able to get just with this year um but now that it's getting cold and stuff i won't need to run dehumidifier i'll just run an air conditioner in my basement you know just for it to be like comfortable um and then i have two of those um like hurricane like oscillating fans i have those like mounted just like moving air around in my basement i wanted us to move into kind of looking more at the progression of the different stages of flower but i had a thought which is just before we do that i wanted to ask dan if there was like any notable differences when he thinks about this for work or you know at the facility versus thinking about it at home even on like a broad level like what are the major things that are different that kind of jump out to you dan um i mean the major thing at scale is just cost you know like i can't afford to buy anything liquid you know so like that just means like stock tanks and direct injection for like furtigation systems and stuff like an argus or a privya or even just some dosatrons um and so it's just kind of a completely different realm as far as that goes because like most people are just running like either a custom blend or a purchase blend of salt fertilizers um but like at home um i used to have like a whole thing when i was like doing more organics where i'm like all right i'm gonna like feed seaweed until this date and then i'm gonna top dress with um you know like worm castings like once a week for those first two weeks of flower and like get a bloom powder in there and then uh i had this whole progression and like it grew nice weed but like now looking back i feel like it's pretty excessive and so um i think the one thing that might be like a tidbit that goes against like common bro knowledge is that the phosphorus intake that your plant wants is they needed immediately starting in flower you know which means that you probably needed to water it in like a week before you flip and get those levels up within the plant and uh traditional knowledge is more like push phosphorus and potassium at the end of flower for like the last four weeks and i've never really understood the thought behind that because like if you think about a plant that's flowering it's doing this massive amount of cell division at each node and then those cells all just like expand with water and so i'm not really exactly sure what like a huge phosphorus or potassium dose at the end really does besides just like make your flower super dense which is kind of the original point but i think to facilitate it it's much better to do it like right around the transition time and keep that going for the first week or two and then you can kind of go on a more base feed from that point cool yeah i've not heard that before so that's definitely a new thing for me to think about um well you kind of you kind of got us started there right so in your mind what are like the distinct you know not distinct but you know what are the loose stages of flowering you know obviously in the stretch that's quite an obvious one how do you all see like the flowering the entire process kind of being divided loosely yeah for me it's just cell division and expansion and so that's like yeah weeks one through three while the plants elongating the you see those flowers forming and after that it's kind of just like i like to just get out the way you know and kind of let it do its thing and so i don't really have any secret sauce for flower you know what i mean besides like setting the plan up to be able to sprint when the time comes okay well in terms of what about the rest of you like in terms of feeding at these different junctions like what's changing or like any of those other parameters feeding lights you know and what's changing in the course of like flowering so i'll just mention that like my diet doesn't really like the plants i guess the way i feed my plants like their diet isn't particularly like changing a lot like i'm still keeping the same formula the same ratios and stuff that like canna provides um it's just like sometimes i notice like a little bit of nitrogen toxicity so i'll back off on one part um but like other than that like i'll keep the feed the same all the way through but like the one thing i've noticed is like they don't like have a potassium supplement that's separate and it's like since i already add potassium phosphate it's like i don't need to add the pk like i need to add some k you know what i mean i don't know but yeah other than that like there's no specific like diets like i'm not like really ramping up p or k at any specific time like i just want to add enough to kind of compensate for the addition of like phosphorus in my medium so so with canna i'm not like as familiar i don't really remember do they have you like a week to week recipe chart where they're kind of like changing and shifting ratios or do they just have like a bloom like rate to use so it's kind of like you maintain your one-to-one usage of a and b right yeah and then you'll notice like as uh flowering progresses you'll kind of up pat you know up until like i don't know like maybe week six to seven and then yeah so like the there the canna formula is based off of like eight to nine week plants so looking at it it's like around like week four or five they is when you're hitting like the highest amount of feed and you're kind of coming in i use like i'm using the pk booster like they recommend just to see because i haven't used it before so i just kind of want to see if it was going to make a difference um but it kind of ramps up to somewhere around like 1.8 ec and then that's like around like week five and then it kind of just starts it kind of comes down a little bit and then to about like 1.2 ec and then it stays there until um you know until you finish or whatever have you guys ever played around with like any different um like bloom booster quote unquote and i don't mean just like a straight pk but there's like products like advanced nutrients overdrive or house and garden shooting powder um that i've noticed after using them a few times in like commercial capacities that they kind of do have something in them i have no idea what it is um that you can kind of re-establish an earlier flower set and it lets it basically you see the plant shoot a bunch of white hairs again when it was already kind of starting to die back and senesce a little bit and they used to recommend it in like week seven but i think they've changed that to like five or six now and that's kind of how people used to use it and recommend to use it before they changed it because like i worked for the company that had the license to distribute house and garden in the in the us back then and so it's just funny how things change like that but have you guys ever used anything like that um i used uh the one that general hydro makes it has like a sunflower on the front of it um it's like uh i'll look at the name really quick but it you know it has it's like a right it's like a little bloom yeah yeah i used to fuck with that stuff a lot yeah yeah that's okay man um yeah it's it's tough like there's a point where you can be using all these different inputs and it's just tough to tell like what's doing what for me sometimes um yeah so yes i did use it but like when i was using it i was also using a letter of other stuff so i can't say that i like noticed something like um specifically from it but i kind of like and i still have a lot of that kind of stuff you know like that i just didn't use so i'm still kind of like interested in revisiting it and like kind of isolating it a bit more and seeing like what it does so that's that's kind of something that i do just like messing around you know what i mean local mention that like one of the things he watches out for is like and talks i was wondering if any of you in your current or previous setups had like how do how would i put it kind of like a almost like a sense of like what would be risks during flower or things that were how'd i put it were the things you were watching out for that you were worried about um so i'll comment with the jacks 321 um it's designed and like three to be applied and like you know like not applied in three parts but like it has a three separate parts that you mix together right and and it has um calcium nitrate which is like 1500 and then they have like their base b or whatever which is like the you know potassium and phosphorus and then they have like a magnesium sulfate um but like i mean off the bat like you kind of know that some things aren't going to respond well because like you have such a high nitrogen content and it sucks because like in that specific formula your nitrogen is tied with your calcium so it's not like you can cut back nitrogen and expect to keep the same like calcium content if that makes sense um but really that's kind of like the only formula that i've i've seen that issue specifically yeah i always try and look at like the potassium rates towards the end of flower and just like the potassium rates in general for some lines are like absolutely insane and that's where you'll start seeing that yellow tipping on the the leaf tips you know what i mean and that die back i almost always see that with like an overuse of like a potassium heavy bloom product and it can actually get bad enough on some of these like 30 ec recipes that um the brach tips themselves on the flower start to get that same die back and um i see it more and more on commercial flower these days and it's it just shows me that people are reading bottles and not like actually being good growers you know maybe now it's making me curious like have any of you experienced like major fuck ups in this period before or has it largely been smooth sailing yeah i fucked up a lot um jacks gave me my now like i'm not shitting on the product whatsoever like it was totally like on my end but like dude it gave me the most like inconsistent health um relatively speaking um you know just because some things were so sensitive to the nitrogen that it's like once the damage is done like it's not like you can fix it you know what i mean like it's still gonna have an overabundance of nitrogen um but yeah i don't know yeah i mean was that something oh you going uh i was just gonna say like the thing i think to keep in mind too is like when you're running a bunch of new plants like you don't know what they're gonna do the first time you know so there's just like this element where like sometimes i was growing some pineapple or not pineapple some um pine tar cush from kala from uh csi and um i just noticed that like they were drinking really slow and then i started getting into this weird thing where i had nitrogen claw you know and it it's kind of like there's a certain point where you just got to leave it alone because the more it seems like the more you do the worse it's getting you know it's like sometimes you just got to be okay with like not knocking it out of the park and just you know maybe if you get an idea of it you get an idea of it it's not try it again you know yeah and like a slight deficiency is way easier to deal with than like an overuse of something it's like salt you know what i mean like you can always add a little more to make it taste better but it's next to impossible to remove it because then like i did this one time i was using uh um you guys know mad farmer i think they did make like the moab powder and stuff um they had a trial like veg and bloom powder line too and i was growing using like their you know exact um dilution rates and stuff and uh every time i mixed it it was like three oh you know and i kept watering it in and i just saw the plants get worse and worse until i was like okay this is too much and then like being newer to growing i was like oh well i saw this product at the grow shop and it's like a salt remover you know and it's supposed to help like rinse all these excess salts out and it's like at this point like yeah like you're saying like you're kind of just like too far gone you know um it's not going to get better and adding more stuff to try and remove certain things it's just like the exact opposite of what um you want and so like the old adage that everyone used to say is like um use half as much as they say because like a growth chart for our like uh different fertilizer usage like if i've got nitrogen on the y-axis and then like plant growth on the x you're going to see this mat or i'm sorry the opposite of that um plant growth on the y you're going to see this massive increase in growth for um a certain point you know it's just this nice exponential growth curve and then at a certain point it plateaus for quite a long time and then it starts dropping um and getting into you know like negatively affecting the yield for how much you're using and nutrient companies want to push you as far over to the right on that plateau as they can where you're using abundantly more for the same exact effect and so like what people always used to recommend is just like start off with half and kind of go from there yeah i was kind of going to add kind of like the one thing i've noticed is there's no like benefit to feeding like over like two and a half max i don't unless like your your system is like truly fucking dialed in environmentally and you have like fucking co2 and an entirely sealed system and all that bullshit like yeah i don't know like it it's kind of irrelevant you know under some circumstances yeah and i feel like some of those stress responses from being far over on that like plateau where you're just adding more and not getting response is where you kind of end up in like hermaphroditic territory and like just weird expressions in general yeah because i mean it is fair to say too that like you know it is stress on the plant i mean it is creating salt stress on the represented stuff you know and you also have to consider too like you know these dudes are like sure y'all they're focusing on the fucking like ec going in but like also the in media like the ec in the medium is like almost three times as much you know like i'm just like this cannot be fucking healthy for the plant at all i don't know like the plant will like look you know big and nice and what not like at a commercial scale but like there's just like i don't know it lacks character at the end of it well it's just like um you've you've heard like i mean i know i've heard like math and he's guys talk about like quote-unquote computer-grown weed you know and i mean like when you have these like sensors and you're reading like drive backs and like net monitoring me i you know it's like there are these setups where that's happening and they're not necessarily producing like uh they're not always producing like the best weed or whatever you know so there's something else to it i think i mean yeah to me that's just about actually a kind of a point that was made earlier like actually watching the plant and observing the plant and not not immediately assuming that like formalizing and automating and you know determining the process is immediately a good thing but it's just such a common impulse you know um one thing i did want to point out is that i like what pharma dan had to say about you know erring on the side of like a lighter feed than a heavier one because i think when you're analyzing risk one of the good parameters to look at is reversibility and like it reminds me of like watering as well you know for newbies it's like err on the side of watering less because it's easier to bounce back from that than watering too much you know and i like i kind of like some of those strategic principles because it's helpful for newer people yeah you learn their importance real quick after screwing up you know 12 weeks of work you know then you're like oh i'm never gonna forget that i'm gonna water you know half as much or you know whatever it is water more or like less more frequently something like that you know i wanted to add no you go erring you go i was just gonna say i know like there's so many products on the market to you know it is for as far as nutrients and stuff like that goes and like you know i'm the kind of person that's like you know like i want to try the newest stuff and that kind of thing like i've always been you know like i want to get a nice computer i want to get you know that kind of stuff and so um it's very easy to kind of go down that road but like it's it was really eye-opening to me when i went from using all of these different inputs to using like literally just straight up three-part general hydro and some you know pro-mix and all of these plants are coming out looking really nice and it's like what is happening right it just is so it feels almost counterintuitive but i just wanted to say that because i do know that like as a new grower it's so easy to just want to just add more and more you know yeah you think you're just like one additive away from hitting that three pounds of light yeah yeah or whatever it is like you know you get obsessed on these things where people are like oh you got to use this you know basalt lava atch or whatever it is it's like i'm sure there are some really cool benefits from it but like you know are you are you like dialed in enough that you're going to notice it even yeah um so like one thing i've kind of noticed um is there's like this rule of thumb to pick like a nice kind of two two to three-part nutrient line and get to know that yeah um i don't know it because like you know trying so many different things yeah it's nice but like you don't really know how the product works until you like actually see it across the board and stuff like that but i don't know i've i've done maybe uh this is my third or fourth grow with canna i think my third but i don't know like um yeah that that two-part kind of rule is it's a nice one to follow yeah i like um for newer people i always recommend like like bigger than we're saying like the three-part or two even a two-part gh because they have like the flora nova which is kind of like the synganic approach um and they have you know like some soy protein hydrolysate and probably like a little seaweed extract in there and you can grow really great weed with flora nova grow bloom and like the gh roots like you can make perfectly good weed with that and so it's a great place to start as far as just like it's super easy to learn and um you can start slowly adding one thing at a time to that and see if it actually does make a difference once you have that baseline yeah um it's kind of funny because i feel like that that lucas formula was like the best expression i was able to pull out of like the sweet pea yeah um i haven't really seen it like that under canna but i don't know um you kind of just notice that like some plants have their preferences in a way but i don't know that's that's not today's topic i guess um i wanted to spice things up a bit and do a little tangent on myth why don't we start with uh everyone's favorite flushing who wants to pick up the knife first um so i mean i guess the way i see flushing is to like encourage likes in essence you know like i don't think it makes like the smoke any better but i just kind of want to make sure that the plant's using what it already has um like i don't know in soil or something like soil for example that has like a higher cat on an exchange capacity i've always thought you'd want to flush it a little longer like okay wait wait wait before you go further like do you want to define what you you call flushing first or like what you are describing um i mean i'm kind of just like using it to encourage senescence like to kind of no sorry what's the actual process when you say flushing do you mean like you're holding off feeding oh i'm just like no i'm just like watering it like with water yeah yeah um but yeah that's uh nothing too special but like cocoa i'll do like you know two three days but it's because like it doesn't hold on to nutrients as much as something like soil so it's easier to kind of strip those sites off and kind of encourage senescence a lot quicker yeah so i got um kind of obsessed with flushing at one point i think i've talked about this before and they're like kind of what led me to do it like dwc type stuff um but uh i've done flushing in the way that locals saying is the way that i would generally do it um but i have also taken like a five-gallon pine for like 20 gallons water in one shot you know what i mean those roots i love that i want to yeah yeah so i have done that uh and i've measured like the ppm and stuff of the runoff you know like all that stuff that you that you do that people do or maybe they don't i did it was it the cleanest smoke you ever had i mean ash baby very wide ash the yes almost clear that's the thing that's weird about it is like you know i've had plants where like where how local approaches it just started like i'll generally just stop watering for like the last like few days or not stop watering but stop feeding um and it's interesting because some plants will like change drastically and then some plants will like i had this mule skinner from pine monsoon that i ended up flushing with just plain water for like two weeks because i was just like well i just want to see what it's going to do it just like never changed really um so i just haven't noticed like a huge difference in the quality of the smoke so um it's not something that i'm really obsessed about but i still do flush because um like i've also fed nutrients up until the very end and it also didn't like it didn't make it any better so i figure um if i can save on nutrients and get the same end product then i'll just do that yeah i do want to ask though like are we talking about like are we talking about like two different things like is there flushing in the sense of like you're running water through your root zone to achieve some outcome versus you're holding off feeding what do you guys how do you guys see this distinction or this like ambiguity i kind of view it as like literally yeah i think it is like people in their mind mixing up like a few different things like i agree with urn that it's like the reason that i don't feed for that last week or two is because i'm cheap and like if the plants like not if it doesn't make it better than like why am i going to pay for fertilizer to go into the pot you know what i mean and i also want my soil to be a little bit more leached and not heavy in nutrients especially bloom roots like right once i throw because i reuse my soil i don't throw it away and so um i don't want it to be like super salt filled when i come back to it but it's like when i think about flushing it's like some people think that it's like increasing like it's like causing some physiological change in the plant that makes it better some people think that like fertilizer crystals within the plant make the smoke harsher um the way i kind of view it is like i'm cheap and um i feel like the cure is honestly much more important than the flush as far as all the like evaluation goes on it you know and so like i've had stuff that was fed like from a seed production run that was fed full strength veg nuts all the way through flower till the last day and it's a little bit harsher but it's not that bad you know what i mean it was perfectly smokable weed and it actually had kind of like some nice aroma changes with that too with like high nitrogen feed all the way through and so like all these things that are like kind of general rules of thumb in the industry and like within the community are like not hard fast rules for everything you know like there is going to be some plants that are like perfectly fine with high nitro or like salt all the way through the end and there's going to be some that don't and so it's kind of just about like dialing it in but i don't think flushing makes your ash wider i really don't i think it's just like stupid to even like consider it um i guess i'll mention too like back in the day like when i was like an amateur at growing i would like flush my medium to like clear out any fucking excess nutrients that i may have applied like that was a form of flushing that i've done yeah um but like it's not like i flush my medium entirely and then go back to feeding you know regularly um because like i kind of do it in a way where i don't let my medium dry out entirely too much where like salt spilled up um so like in theory i don't have to like flush to like get rid of salt it's just like achieve some runoff and you'll kind of maintain an equilibrium this is a bit of a tangent but it's come up as a term i think when i've listened to you local and dan talk um what is the it's kind of related to what you just said right like what is the risk around like quote-unquote dry back or like benefits or like how do you see dry back i mean like i don't know in flower like i've kind of always been in practice to encourage a little more dry back than you would in veg kind of just to like encourage that like winter's coming or whatever or like water's a little more restrict stress exactly yeah yeah yeah um but like with that like you kind of risk salt buildup because like as you like dry back your concentration or like your the amount of water to like salt is going to be thrown off and like you're going to have a concentration of salts in your medium um and really like the only way to like get that lowers by running water through it to strip the salts from the medium but like i don't know it's never like been bad enough to where it like physically damages the plants to what i can see um but yeah yeah i think this kind of just goes back to like what dan was saying as far as kind of staying on like the wider side of things um because i can just tell you from personal experience like when you're there offering like 20 gallons of water through a pot it doesn't feel good and you you're like you're like man this cannot be good for this plant you know uh it's a lot and um it also in doing like taking like i would do it i'd like do like a gallon and then do like a slurry test and see where i want to let go again you know what i mean and um it doesn't change it very much man it takes a lot of effort to actually flush it you know um so i just think like yeah just maybe like try to not get into a position where you feel like you need to flush anyways um that's nice that you bring up the slurry test to earn because like i find that a lot of people or a lot of newer growers are like stuck on measuring the ec and ph of the runoff and like that runoff ph in theory like it's not going to be the same as the water going in or whatever or the uh the ph of the actual medium because like you're the plant's going to be feeding as that water is like coming out so like some ions are going to be like missing making it either like more basic or acidic at least to my understanding um i don't know if if um anyone else is able to contribute to that but yeah they're they're not very accurate test when you're testing runoff like it is not like an exact representation of what's going on in your pot and i think the easiest example like in hydro like the more inert your media goes i feel like it is more applicable but especially in like a nice well blended potting soil like i was talking about earlier with like compost and you know a lot more organic portions to it that are that are like did do come pre-fertilized like you can pour a cup of water through some fresh bags of soil like that and it'll come out at like four OEC but like not all of that is like readily plant available and like you know what i mean um it's not an incredibly accurate test on its own um go ahead oh you could finish dude sorry about that oh yeah i'm just yeah just saying like your media really dictates like how accurate that is and i think cocoa and pro mix kind of style it um it's probably a little bit more accurate than like real soil um but in hydro is kind of the only time that i really even use it as a tool besides kind of just like oh this is the general ball park that the pH is in like plus or minus like you know a few points and same with the EC like press plus or minus a few hundred ppm i was just going to add an anecdote here which is that one of my most traumatic experiences as a new grower was like going down this bizarre rabbit hole probably wholly unnecessarily um of like freaking out of freaking out about my um medium's pH and just getting completely lost because i didn't know what i was doing um and actually i think i told erin about this and i actually ended up speaking to like a camera person on the phone which is quite bizarre like i've never spoken to like anyone in this industry on the phone like as a you know like a customer before yeah um and he actually had a really good advice he was just like look if your medium actually there's something actually wrong with this pH or buffering capabilities you are not going to be able to fix it like at home like you won't even have the tools to like diagnose it properly um and i thought that was actually quite good advice yeah that's what something like when i was still doing the quote unquote like you know living soil or organic kind of stuff um i i was using uh my soil like multiple runs you know and um we have like an agricultural university near us so i took it and was getting some like soil tested and stuff like that just to see and like through that whole process i just i just like really realized that like a lot of the things that you're like really stressing about you really just it's so hard to control them that uh you're better off to just like get products they're gonna put you on the right path from the very beginning yeah like i had a in my foray in like organics i feel like organics is where you actually do have to slightly pay more attention to this because some of the organic inputs do have their own wild pH swings like and the main one i'm thinking of is a a little bit farther back like in the 20 teens up until legalization people were all about seabird guano and bat guano and the seabird guano specifically like they're harvesting it off of these like little ocean rocks you know what i mean those little rocky outcroppings that are just covered in crap and like what's also in it is tons of like shell from eggs like all kinds of different little products by products and so what i notice with that stuff is that it's super super basic and when i was top dressing with like the teaspoon for like a three gallon pot or whatever after a few weeks my runoff was like a pH of 10 and it was like way out of whack because that seabird guano was just like very very basic in its own natural component you know based on its composition and so with normal like liquid bottled nutrients like you're usually watering in between like five eight and six five by like design because it's like usually naturally buffered by the way they've designed it and so if you're not inputting anything that has a crazy pH swing then like you shouldn't have an issue going forward at all yeah that's more or less what he said he was just like if you have the right product it's going to be adequately buffered and like you shouldn't really have to worry about it like on this scale you know on this level um yeah well i don't know if you'll have anything else to save around this flushing topic i wanted to move it along towards like any other weird myths that y'all have heard about flouring like i know that some people are like i'll just say that like one one pet one for me is people who think that like basically like abusing the shit out of your plant like driving a stake through like the stem or like supercropping or any of those things are beneficial and i'm not gonna say that they're not like i just don't know but i'm curious about your you know everyone's thoughts on stuff like this i think like the most that i've really kind of like mess around with is like cold stress you know like early on just kind of like i i don't know like i it'll get really cold outside and i'll like sometimes like just vent cold air into my tents um i still do that sometimes you know um and i think that it kind of tends to i i don't know i it may be like a bro science thing but it kind of tends to make them look a little bit like frostier and that kind of thing like i just feel like around like when you can get like cold suit like really cold dry air the plants just like kind of react to it a bit but i've you know in the cold stress thing too i've also seen like people taking like ice and putting it in their you know putting it on top of their soil and like watering over it and stuff like that trying to force that purple man yeah yeah it when i was when i was like starting out um i just didn't really understand a lot of this stuff so like you know purple weed was pretty and that's cool or whatever you know now it's just not something that i'm i'm really concerned with my favorite one is when uh if you ever go to a hydro shop they they're not common anymore but especially the shops that have been around a lot they just have the shit left over from years ago but um there's all these white bottles with like different pictures of fruit on them and they're all like artificially flavored um like sugar supplements you know what i mean and like they were everywhere for a long time and like they'll just have a picture of a grape on it and it smells like artificial grape because that's obviously how you make grape aromas and weed is by like pouring artificial grape flavoring and sugar in your in your media and these are from like professional companies like botanic air and shit you know and it was just like a thing for a long time and i'm sure that they knew it was bullshit when they were mass producing this but it's uh it's one of those like old messages that i just always laugh about in this industry yeah i had a person tell me sorry just about the fruit thing i that you could like put your buds like when you were drying them like have them on a rack and then have like fruit underneath of it and like a fan like blowing across the fruit onto the buds someone told me that's how i should be drying it i'm not kidding ethylene baby it's it's pretty nuts how many fucking like old live tales that there are in this this community yeah like hang your plants upside down while you're drying because it concentrates the thc in the buds that one was a good one that's an amazing one that should be the whole of fame of meth it's so good it was the one that Matt said one time like shock the plants with like a car battery bro i mean i'm shocked i'm turning purple i think for me it's more of like a psychological or i don't know cultural interest that i have in this kind of general strategy of like if you're violent towards your plant and if you traumatize it it's good and i'm like why though this makes me think i was i was reading some kids uh um master's thesis out of sandless abysso and in it's about like reversal tech and like trialing out a bunch of sprays and um in it he like has this full paragraph about like soma's rotolization technique like it's like this like you know industry accepted methods you know what i mean and i just love that that appeared in a master's thesis and i remember like screencapping that and sending it to Matt and i'm just like look at this bullshit dude wait you have to you have to elaborate what that is so rotolization is just like torturing your plant through like drought stress and heat and like keeping a giant plant in a solo cup and like just stressing it in every way imaginable to like get it to her and it like i guess it works on some things but it's just like if you think about like the potential epigenetic costs of that like i don't know it's not like a proven thing but i just can't imagine that like stressed plants produce the best possible offspring i hope these people aren't parents yeah right yeah the stack might get around a little bit makes them strong yeah it's like go you know go play on the train tracks that will help build character kind of thing um yeah that's last generation's games like yeah yeah yeah yeah any other like weird myths that you all can think of apart from like so we mentioned additives various kinds of like stress oh yeah um some people do like uh i've heard people talk about like doing like a dark period before flowering to like help yeah flowering yeah that was a good one yeah yeah it's like 24 hours dark on flip i remember that one from when i first started growing yeah i remember dude i mean you can get on reddit and there are just threads dedicated to this oh yeah you know i mean i just destroy them yeah because it's you know i mean yeah all sorts of things like that also the 28th or i've heard people doing 48 hours of two days no lights before flower it's weird i don't know i've actually noticed that that technique can help to some degree with um different reversal sprays too and the amount of phytotoxicity experience and then also just like its efficacy is that um i think that there's some interplay with um light intensity and like the plant breaking down the silver ions that you're spraying on it and like i don't have like proof it's all kind of anecdotal it could also just be like hormone play and like the newest portion of the plant is um like has a different set of hormones doesn't have that concentration of silver on it from the last sprays and so it reverts back to female first but it's just something i've noticed is that the lowers on plants tend to stay a little more reversed than the tops do and so i have a little experiment in mind of like under lighting and not top lighting and and seeing if that has like any effect on that but just a little side tangent yeah i mean that makes sense too i mean because you know i mean a lot of those things um break you know have some kind of like decay and light so yeah very well could be that well maybe we can step away from the old wives tales and myths and kind of come back to you know the earnest side of flowering and anything else that we may have missed out um what about if we think towards like late flower does anything change or is it like even more hands off than the rest of it because for me generally it is right like true for most people it's like you're just watching waiting yeah i mean i'm still just kind of um i'm paying attention probably like the most i am to the humidity uh around that time you know around the like end of flower and stuff and i'm also i will also tend to like lower my lights just a little bit um like at the start of flower i'll i'll be somewhere around like 80 to 85 percent and i'll get up to about like 90 95 percent and then i'll work my way back down to around like 80 percent for the last like week you know just kind of give them a break let them chill out do their thing whatever yeah i do the same thing with like oh sorry look but i do the same thing and i just kind of scale back the nutrient slowly from like week six to nine yeah and i'm like 300 parts per million increments and i do the same thing with the lighting where i kind of slowly ramp it back down from that peak yeah i was just going to add those last two weeks um i'll like i won't feed every watering but i'll like supplement just like a little bit of plain water kind of just to you know because they're they don't really need to eat that much but it's kind of just to feed them a little bit kind of get rid of some of that food you know um but yeah nothing too crazy um and then i guess i did want to comment earlier on like the old wives tale um is there like there's no like kind of uh one kind of cure all product like cal mag for example i know a lot of people like recommend that for everything and it's just like i don't know just take information with the grain of salt i guess yeah cal mag for president baby 2024 i think i made that meme years ago how often have you all encountered like botrytis um a lot in flower like i've i've had it you know a few times in my in my time and i remember the very first time it was like i was so devastated that first time it was like you know christmas was ruined but then over time i'm like i've become a little bit more like desensitized to it i'm like hey cool i've lost like a couple of tops like whatever but yeah for my personal growing i've never had like too much an issue with it with like some of my like very first blue dream crops like the more i would knock it out of the park the worse the botrytis would be because like we just didn't have the humidity control for end of flower out on the coast it was always it like you know 80 percent um but i've lost when i was up in oregon i lost like a field to botrytis and it's it's devastating you know i mean it's kind of funny that you bring up the blue dream because i actually had one santa cruz rack it was the number three um that i never finished flowering it out because it showed signs of botrytis early and i was it was a crowded tent i was like you know what like it's just best to kind of cut this thing down and not let it get to the rest but yeah i mean that's kind of i mean if it's one plant um in an entire tent and you don't want to sacrifice it like yeah i mean yeah especially if like you're you're outdoors like that's when it's like you're at the mercy of the weather you know what i mean and so like that year i lost that field it started raining september first and it didn't stop for about six weeks and then the end of october was like gorgeous you know just to like rub it in a little bit you know and so uh you can once it starts it's not going to get better there's not a single product that you can spray to stop botrytis once it's actually going and a lot of botrytis itself is actually like a hodgepodge of a few different fungi and so um and they're all like not treatable and so it's usually time to cut it down the other thing i've noticed too with botrytis is a lot of times like the bud can look fine on the outside but like the inside is where it's fucked up bro yeah and that's why like um your ipm going into flower like we were talking earlier is super important because even if you do have something that you don't mind spraying part way through flower that's like a little more inert like an enzyme spray or something it's not going to get into those internal crevices of a flower and that's where those mold spores because like botrytis is like a metropolitan fungi is what they call it it is in the airstream like all over the world and so like it's all about just like not creating conditions for it and so your ipm early on is going to dictate whether it's going to be a big problem for you later because um a few early sulfur sprays to kill those um mold spores off and kind of inhibit them early on can go pretty far later on with just saving you a whole world of hurt i was yeah i was going to say to local like you know you build up you build up that like fear of seeing those like twisted little leaves and stuff yeah yeah i just never really i i've had it on like the outdoor plants here but i've not had it inside um i say pretty on top of it or i try to like between runs i you know i take everything out and you know clean it with like hot bleach water and stuff like that like you know i really do just i just try to like focus on keeping my grow environment just like barely clean generally speaking and that seems like it helps for me yeah that is huge like some xeratol sprays or like peroxyacetic acid with bleach um or even just bleach bleach is great um i got to the point um when i was at like a slightly smaller commercial scale where i would literally atomize the entire room with xeratol and bleach water and like i'm hitting the lights i'm hitting the tables i'm hitting the walls and ceiling like a good reset and keeping clean all the way through it's a really big for the fun guy problems yeah yeah i mean i when you guys were talking about ipm like i it's it's not the best thing to say but i don't do a ton of ipm because i just really stay on top of that stuff and like i just haven't seen those issues you know if i do see something obviously i'll address it but like since my very first like the very first day i had i got spider mites uh from a friend um and then otherwise that was such a terrible experience that i was just like i'm gonna stay on top of this you know what i mean i was i was just like really upset to like lose but i didn't really lose but i just felt like i could have done so much better and all these things so i was like i just need to stay on top of it yeah like keep your system closed loop the more you intake um the more you intake stuff from outside like the just the higher chances you're gonna get bugs and so like if you don't clone trade and you just pop seeds and stuff the chances is you having anything but like a little bit of a tritus on your biggest buds it's like pretty low and so you can keep on top of it a lot easier and so i advise against clone trading for the most and also too like if you have some even if you just have like one or two plants outside like when you come inside wash your hands you know stuff like that like it's just just like things that are pretty common sense but um they can definitely go a long way yeah and i guess too like a lot of the new growers like it's never too late to start like an ipm like you're better off starting off earlier um but yeah yeah before there's a problem so just just a little note uh dan do you have to go dan uh i'm aware i have to retreat duties yeah yeah i gotta go take my boy out it's his first like real halloween that he can kind of understand what's happening you know we don't want to mess with that yeah should we bid you adieu for now and then uh the three of us can wrap up uh yeah yeah no that's awesome like thank you guys for having me on again and um had a great chat i was live bullshit with the boys and so um thanks for saving the last three recordings buddy yeah no worries man my wife is a little uh she's like are you done yet and i'm like uh we got one more coming up so yeah but i will i will see you all again for this uh this z-sherb episode that we keep alluding to yes i'll try to give you a week off next week and then we'll come back to it yeah yeah for sure well thank you guys i'll see you later yeah later have a good time well i guess for us it's just like rounding this out now i mean is they is there like anything else that you all want to say about flowering or like um maybe uh is it worth talking about your last whether you last flowered anything interesting to highlight um i guess uh the one thing to highlight is like a lot of these um bottled formulas or powdered formulas whatever maybe um a lot of those are like not designed but like they're advertised for like nine nine week crops right so like when you're um growing like longer flowering like this is a good one plants like i don't know you kind of just want to prolong those periods by like an extra week or two if that makes sense like just to compensate for any of the extra weeks like that's kind of what i've i've done um and it's helped me um but yeah i don't know that's just kind of one thing i think that's that's probably where it's good to have some basic understanding of like the distinct stages right so at least you can translate like the time frames um yeah yeah and like i've said like my issues mainly been like a potassium deficiency like towards like the end of flower and i mean now i know next time it's just to kind of supplement a little extra potassium just to kind of keep the plant covered up until then but yeah that's really it like by no means am i an expert i'm like feeding plants at all like none of my plants like 100 happy by any means but yeah yeah absolutely i mean it's it's definitely i think that's the biggest thing that i would try to impress on people is that it's there's you know like you're you're gonna get to a place where you're growing stuff that you're happy with but you're probably always gonna feel like you can make your plants look better you know i mean yep and so they're just you just have to find that place that's like a comfortable medium for you i think yeah and i you know i i said this the last time but i didn't qualify it for this recording but like one of the reasons why i've chosen the three of you is because there's a really nice spread of like experience you know we've earned who's a bit newer growing for a couple of years local maybe like what a decade local or more no no no no not not a decade just yet now um seven years at max i want to say seven years okay yeah okay and then dan you know with like i think about 15 that if i that would have had me growing at the age of 15 well dan started when he was 17 when did you start uh it started when i was 18 that's early man that's still really really but i think my point was also that like one we have a spread of experiences just like you know showcase that because i think that's good information in and of itself but also like urn said like no matter where you are there's always something that like you could improve still but i don't think anyone yeah at any point is like yeah it's perfect all the time yeah and i just like also want to say each plant's like a new adventure like every seed you pop like you're never gonna know until you like flower it so exactly i don't know like some things like to take care of themselves and that's like always a fucking bonus but then there are those instances where there's just you know some parents just aren't the happiest parents you know what i mean like so some of the offspring might like express some of those like sensitive traits or you know stuff like that but yeah i don't know yeah you're right you may as well kind of treat like every time you are something new it's like a new game almost um you have some of the of course your baseline like protocols but apart from that it's like you're just going to have to react slash like rerun yeah and it was pretty cool too i'll say like popping like the eb appy and like all the santa cruise wreck too like each like individual has its different needs and like that's just an entire different game on its own like you know and they're they're from the same like parents you know and like you'll have some that like take care of themselves some that need a little more babing and others you know this and that but yeah i know eric wanted to say something but sorry about that oh no you're good dude no i uh i think i kind of covered it mostly i think i think something that i would say is like maybe i wonder a lot of people talk about that they sometimes have plants that just don't look good for them you know um and it's okay if you if you run something and you just don't like it you know i think like we really like talk about keeping stuff around a lot and learning stuff and stuff like that but like there can come a time where uh you know sometimes like you just don't have to force it you know just like have a good time just like remember why you started growing that kind of stuff i i'm very much about that you know like i want there to be good vibes and that kind of stuff absolutely i think that's a nice sentiment for sure if i mean anything else guys if not we can probably start wrapping up i can start on like the outro um i know you're probably gonna plug the discord but like if anybody has like questions or any of that shit like you know we're always on the discord so yeah yes definitely yep yep we're just dudes and we like like everyone else so you know like we like talking about that too so please come well you two are already there but any shout outs from either of you for anything from the discord yeah i mean shout out to matt for always uh like having a song you know letting us shoot the shit with each other but yeah also i just wanted to say to denali sent me some really cool disc golf swag this week and it was like i know that this is very meaningful and i just want to say shout out i love you you're the best yeah deez the fucking best dude yeah denali's great he's uh trying to blackmail me says he won't come on the show unless i like visit you guys we'll see um but yeah i mean shout out to you guys thank you so much for coming on the show local especially like what like yeah it's gonna have like two or three recordings in a row so i appreciate that a lot um yeah shout out to dan and urn of course for making the time as well and yeah lastly shout out to matt just for like doing all of this and letting us like also run the show um i think it's also for him like a nice thing i think he's he has one to get to the point where he could trust other people to like handle the show if if he's busy um so i think he's also really stoked about you know where this is all headed um but i'm sure we will welcome him back very soon um apart from that i just want to say that like dan mentioned we are lining up a skills episode as we've said um just takes a little bit more prep because we want dan has a few questions that he wants to um get sent to csi so matt's going to facilitate some questions to calib that will be part of the show local will join us as well um and we'll talk about uh some of the uh hunting that he's doing through some sure best ones um apart from that we've also probably got a harvest and post harvest episode uh coming up initially i thought this was just for the outdoor group but now that we've done this one here it may be that we just combine forces and just do like harvest and post harvest like as a you know just like a combined group because you know i don't think it yeah obviously that like goes across like indoor and outdoor ground so we'll see well i'll see how how people are like positioned for that um other than that riot seeds dot com uh riot co europe for those of you in europe we have group by seas run by our homie maddie booze for those of you in australia uh of course check out the patreon which is how you can get onto our discord we always talk about the discord right about it i i'm almost at the point where i'm like maybe we should like not push it so high because it sounds culty but it is a great place so we do recommend it um and lastly we've got the codex um do check that out you haven't already put some more pressure on matt to add more entries or update them um we also hope to get bodie on to help us with that once he's settled in um yeah thank you everyone again for showing up on this Friday night um thanks again you guys for sitting inside your halloween night to do this and we will catch you all next week bye everyone later y'all later you want to sit at the table with the syndicate check out our patreon and our link or description below our merch site is officially live we have all sorts of shirts hoodies and goodies to sort you out and shipping is super fast and most importantly the quality is top notch i've been saving old designs for years for this purpose so please check it out syndicate here dot com we also have an underground syndicate discord where we get together and solve old strain history together daily it's an amazing community of learning away from ig and it's amazing resource for old catalogs and knowledge we hope you join our union of breeders and growers come check it out