 All right, we are live here for the final time. It's the final countdown to talk about dead of bones. And like, actually, I said this in my wrap up because I thought my wrap up would go up before this, which is not what happened. But I was like, we will be doing the dead of bones chat. But I was like, probably it'll be like a little bit of dead of bones and then like a retrospective of sort of truth. I feel like that's probably accurate. Hey, Jessica, Crystal, hey y'all. So yeah. I thought this was very OK. Yeah. I mean, to be completely honest, it's been a little while because we read it in December. But yeah, I had to look up. I was like, what was this about again? Oh, that's right. That's right. It kind of had a weird. Hello. OK. I feel like it had kind of a weird structure. And I wasn't expecting it to follow this random woman. I don't know. It was OK. I mean, I feel like I'm actually planning to do a video about this in general, so spoilers. But prequels as a thing, I think like nine times out of ten is a bad idea. Because it's like, what is the reason for this to exist? Like, why do you feel we need to know this thing that came before? Does that actually do something for your story? Does it actually help? Or is it interesting by itself? Like, what is the point of this? Is the only point that's like more than it's like, that doesn't need to happen then. Hello. I gotta get wounded again. I mean, this wasn't like a naked empire situation. I didn't read this. I was just like, what is the point of this? Yeah. Well, and then I was kind of horrified at like the one scene involving like the child. But yeah, it was just like I it was fine. I didn't care that much and I didn't really see why. Like, it didn't like cast new light on what we thought we knew about the events that precede the sort of truth, you know? We're about Zed. And it wasn't even from Zed's perspective, which might have been more interesting. Maybe. And I think that's kind of what I was expecting. I also, Zed's solution, I guess the only thing it did for me was like, I guess Richard really is Zed's grandson, because like when Zed pulls his, I'm going to put these divisions in and they can go live their magic list. It's like the the junior version of Richard being like, I'm going to send them to a literal different universe and do basically what my grandpa did, but like bigger and better story. I had not thought of that, but yeah, that's all I thought. I was like, this is the mini version of that. This is the Death Star to Richard's Starkiller base. Oh, man. Yeah. I mean, and Zed is like, sad in this. I feel like he's right in the red. Oh, you read Dettopoam's first. That's interesting. I don't know if that would make me like it more or less. Or if, yeah. I don't know. All the first confessors are pretty cool. It would be about Magna, Magna Saras, I'm guessing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I was pointless. I'm a bit annoying. The lectures we get at the end of the series. Yeah. Because yeah, that's the thing. It was more or less harmless. But it's like, if you're telling a pre-equal story, why are you doing it? It's like an interesting thing. Right, yeah. I think that's the thing. It wasn't terrible, but it also, I just didn't care that much. I did find the child being brutally murdered being very disturbing, even if it wasn't really happening. But it didn't make you like it more or less. Just liked it enough to want to read the rest of the series. OK, fair enough. Cool. Although I feel like it's written in a way that presupposes that you are familiar with the sort of truth books. Like it's not designed to be read first. Whereas in the Witcher series, even though that's not the publication order, it is good to read the last wish first. And I don't know if it's designed that way. But there is a sense of like, it is good to start there, even if it wasn't the first thing he wrote. I don't know what you would get out of this reading it before. I don't know what you'd get out of this reading at any point. Because of the TV. OK, yeah. I mean, I love the actor who plays Zed in the TV show. So any opportunity to just picture him saying these lines, doing these things. That's what I mean. OK, to talk about this series in general, I mean, when it was good, when it was fun, was like the first few books. When Zed was being kind of batshit, but endearing. When Richard was being heroic, but kind of like a numb nut. When Kaelin was being badass, but sometimes fragile. It was great. And then it's just like, none of them are like that by the end. Zed isn't like this kooky old man that stands naked on a rock. Richard isn't like the sometimes misguided, but ultimately like kind hearted, like, you know, long head. Kaelin is like not badass at all. It's like, what happened, man? What happened? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's interesting. This is. Yeah. And Zed is such a trickster. Yeah. After the violent murder of a child. Yeah. Although Terry Goodkind in general does that. Like, all of his books are like, he's a naked man standing on a rock, but also like Richard is being like tortured and like raped. And like, there's a lot of like wild combinations of tone. Terry Goodkind. I think this being a short, shorter work, then they're like next to each other more. Whereas like. He claims out more. Yeah. Like, Wizards first rule, if you compare some of how kooky it is with like how dark it is, you're like, there's a lot going up here. Well, and it's not like there aren't as abused children in the main series either. So. Yeah. Yeah. The thing I really didn't like is that Zed never got to talk to his parents again. You know, they had to stop talking to him and they tell him they can talk when it's all over. I just didn't care that much. Like, I get what you're getting at. And in general, that's the thing that would like. Would bother me, I guess. Or not bother me, but like affect me. But yeah. And it just like I'm thinking and ladies and gentlemen, it's not even been 10 minutes, but in Joe Abercrombie's first law because like I tend to agree with him because I asked him when I interviewed him, I was like, so would you ever write, you know, a prequel in the first law either directly before or like a thousand years before or something like that. And he was like, why? Like, why would I do that? He's like, would it help? Would it make anything more interesting? I don't think so. But that being said, he did. Like he's a lying liar who lies. He did write prequels because the short story collection in Sharp Ends includes two prequel stories. One that's like a brief, you know, but like that's a thing. It's like a short story, it's not a full novel. But it's like a little scene of like Logan nine fingers before you ever meet him in the first law and a little scene of Glocked up before he was captured and tortured because it wasn't a whole book because I agree with him. A whole book about that, I don't think would be good or helpful. But because he just did like a single little short story for each of them, it did as much as we would need to see to give us some more insight into who they are as people that does shed new light on how you see them now in the main series. It's not just like, okay, so we saw a day in the life beforehand who cares. It's like, no, I have more context now for the things that go on in this series and it does paint things in a different light and it does show me things that complicate matters. And that's what a good prequel is gonna do. I mean, that's for characters. I mean, it could do something similar for plot or like what you think you know about the plot of something when you learn something, you're like actually the motivation for like why this war was begun was different than you ever realized or something like that, but. Yeah, this doesn't really do any of those things. Which is why like again, like seeing young Zed, it wasn't like, oh, this shoulds new light on like the Zed you think you know. It's like, no, it's like younger Zed. Okay. And because he's also, it's not like he's a teenager, right? Like he's already lost his wife. He's already like, so I- Yeah, if it was like very young Zed maybe, then it'd be like seeing him when he was basically Richard, you know. Yeah, right. That might have been more interesting. Which I think is what I thought we were getting and I was like, oh, this is not what I thought. Are you reading more sort of truth? I'm not planning on it. Yeah. I mean, I'm not gonna say never. Cause like kinda maybe Nikki Chronicles, kinda maybe the first Professor, but not like super soon or anything. Yeah. If he was gonna show Richard all about talking on the rock. I don't know. Should have at least been mentioned in the main series. It seems like an unresolved detail. I don't know what's happening anymore. I don't know. Yeah, I thought it was Zed and Addy too, but then I remembered, like I did think that, but then I remembered that it was his first rule. They meet for the first time. Like, Addy doesn't know. Yeah, I thought it was Zed and his wife, prequel. That's what I thought. I didn't think that. But I think cause it's bones, that's why I thought Addy, cause she's the bone woman. Yeah. Bone lady or whatever they call her. Yeah. She's the one with the bones. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. I think I still really love the first few books of the series. Stone of tears, top shelf. We'll always love. Absolutely. I feel like that's definitely the highlight, like the best book in the series. Yeah. I think we came to that conclusion several books ago. Yeah. Yeah. We're like, Stone of tears, man. That's where it was at. It's true. Oh, your audio is a bit off. Is this, is anyone else experiencing this? You sound normal to me? Speak more. Say Supercalifragilist. I mean, I can change it. So I'm doing my computer audio instead of my headphone audio. Hold on. It sounds normal to me. Is that any better? It sounds different, but like in terms of consistent clarity, it's the same. Okay. Okay. Hmm. I mean, this also sounds fine. So. I sound like I did this afternoon. Yeah, I was using this, I think this afternoon for patron reading sprints. So I don't know. This sounds good. So I can hear you. But yeah. Yeah. Lissae. I, yeah, I would, I don't think I would read, reread some of the books in the series, like some of the later ones. I feel like I'm going to unhaul them and like pretend they don't exist. Yeah. It's basically just a stone of tears. And was there's first one because it's the first one, even though it's not that good? I mean, I do like some of the other ones too. I think there's some that I liked better than you did. Let me actually pull up because I want to look at, let's do an overview. Actually, I like Pillars of Creation a lot. I know you didn't, but I really liked that one. It was okay. Well, and I liked the, the Jack the Ripper one better than you did. Dreffen should have been his gay best friend brother. He should have joined the team. Okay. Okay. Well, let's just go through. You have your. I would never read. I would never read. Go ahead. It might be fun to do an overview if you pull up your Goodreads series page and we could just talk about like ratings and stuff. My phone is almost out of battery, but we'll do our best. Okay. So you just want me to pull up my sort of truth, like the sort of truth books? Yeah. And literally, as I said, you just want me to pull up sort of truth books. My fingers typed first law. I'm not even kidding. I just, I was like, what? No. I think that's my brain thought wizard's first rule. But after I type first, my fingers are like, law. Obvious, obviously. That's funny. You know, my phone auto capitalizes the word first. I have to like uncapitalize it on purpose. Oh, that's great. Okay. Oh, but on the phone, is it, it's not showing me my ratings, it's showing aggregate ratings. No, it might just do it on desktop. Boo. Okay. I'll try to pull it up on my tiny laptop screen. I vaguely remember I think what my ratings were, but I don't know if you want to start talking about your ratings. Okay. So like that of bones, I think I gave three stars. Thanks. I think I did too. Yeah. And then wizard's first rule was four. I liked it. Not like my favorite, but I liked it. Okay. Yeah, I can see my ratings on desktop. Cool. Yeah, I gave that of bones three. I gave wizard's first rule three. Okay. Stone of Tears was four and a half. I gave it five. Okay. I'm assuming yours shows up as five, right? You just... No, although I might update that it shows up as four, because I've gone back and forth on like whether I round up or down, but Blood of the Fold, I gave three and a half. I think I just gave it three. I think Temple of the Winds, I like better than you. I gave it four. I gave it three. Yeah. Because I think when we talked about Temple of the Winds, I was like, I feel extreme hatred and bafflement at this, but I can't deny that it kept my attention the entire time, even the second time through, and that gets points. That's fair. Whereas I actually like Temple of the Winds. It's weird, but I like it. But then they didn't happen. Yeah. That's fair. Well, weird to you. I mean, it was my intro to adult fantasy too, which is why like it hurts me to be like, I low key hate the later books, but also I remain a Terry Good kind of apologist, because again, as we've talked about the people shedding on him have not read that far in the series. I mean, for the most part, I'm sure there's people who have read the entire series and are like, fuck him. But for the most part, the hatred that he gets across the board online where people are like, Terry Good kind, he sucks, are people that either haven't read it at all or have only read like Wizards First Rule. And it's like, he does eventually suck. But not you, right? No, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Soul of the Fire, I did not like, I gave that one two stars. You've run a line that book five is where it starts to go off the rails with objectivism. Yeah, that's about right. Yeah, I would say that's accurate. I mean, I think we kind of get, I like, I still like Faith of the Fallen. There is a lot of like kind of soap boxing in it. However, it worked for me because of the fantasy world. Yeah. And I just kind of ignored some of it, but yeah. Oh yeah, what did you give Soul of the Fire? Soul of the Fire was, that was a two star. Yeah, I did, I also gave it two stars. I'm surprised you didn't give it one star because I feel like you were more angry about it than me. It's probably like a one and a half if I was looking back, but yeah, Faith of the Fallen I gave four though. I gave that three, but like, it was also like, because that had been my favorite before and I had just like, I kind of wish I hadn't reread it because my memories of it were like, this was such, and I mean like, as we talked about when we talked about Faith of the Fallen that it was like the right book at the right time for me when I read it. And that will always be true, like just because I don't think it's that good upon reflection and reread now, that doesn't change the fact that like, it was the book I needed to read at that time in my life, so I'll always be glad about that. Yeah, yeah. I got that. Yeah, I think. I gave Pillars four. I gave it three. It was fine. So you like Faith better and I like Pillars. Yes. I like Pillars because it's like, we were starting to see how like, he didn't know what to do with Richard and Kaelin anymore because like they had leveled up so much that it's like, where'd he go from there? So like, I was like, yeah, tell us a Jensen story. Like, you know, just start telling us different characters. It doesn't have to be about Richard and Kaelin. So like, I wish Pillars of Creation had started at a trend, but instead it was just that book. Yeah. Yeah, it was, it was all right. I mean, I didn't love it, but definitely my least favorite was a Naked Empire. It was a one and a half for me. Yeah. I think my listing here is a two, but I'll probably change it to a one. Jesus Christ Naked Empire was bad. I did not like Naked Empire. No, I took my Naked Empire as a choice. Even mega fans were just kidding. I love it. Yeah, Naked Empire is not good. Chainfire was better. Chainfire, like I'm mad at it because it rekindled some hope. And then I just, that went nowhere. I gave it three, but it was like a hopeful three. I was like, ooh, we're going somewhere. So three. And then it was like two, two. I was like, oh. Yeah, I originally gave it four, but I just adjusted it to three and a half because I think that's more real. I think I was just so excited that it was not awful. Naked Empire? Yeah. So it was like a three and a half. And then Phantom was a two. And Confessor was. I think I was madder about Confessor. You were madder about Confessor. I gave Confessor like a three. It was fine. It was two. Because in addition, like we talked about, in addition to like not being that good an installment, it also was the one that has to wrap up this whole arc of like 10 or 11 books. And I was like, ugh. Thank you, Caitlin. Naked Empire is terrible. It's horrible, yeah. It's really, that's the one that made it on my worst books of the year list. See, it couldn't for me because it was a reread and I never put rereads on a list. Yeah, whereas I don't remember actually finishing it so I can count it. I definitely finished it. I just, that's also where I stopped. And now on this sort of truth read-along reread, I was like, that's why I stopped. Yeah. This checks out. I think going forward, I would probably stop at Faith of the Fallen. Like I just think everything past that. Like Pillars of Creation is okay, but I don't care enough to reread it. Like I feel like every, like, like I would just read up through Faith of the Fallen, maybe skip Soul of the Fire, cause I didn't like it. I think I would just read Wizard, Church, Roll and Stone of Tears. That's fair. I love Stone of Tears so much. I truly do. It is really good, yeah. That book by itself makes me like want to be like, Terry, good kindness, that bad, y'all. He wrote Stone of Tears. Stone of Tears is wonderful. That's a good one. Yeah, so it was an interesting project. I'm glad we did it though. I feel like, I don't know, going through and reading everything was an experience. It was indeed. And it's, yeah, it is interesting watching him change. Yeah. Over the course of the books. Yeah. He had some good stuff going there for a while, you know. Well, yeah, it doesn't feel like the same person is writing the later books in the sense of like, he himself underwent quite a change in his own thinking. Like it doesn't feel like he was tricking us, you know, like he always meant to go there and he sucked us in with Stone of Tears. It's like, he wasn't there when he was writing Stone of Tears. He changed and then was in the middle of writing a series and like the characters, they're not the same characters anymore. No. They were legitimately or not. Yeah. Which is unfortunate because I love the characters that they are in the first few books. And so it's sad to see it change. I'm like, no, what are you doing to these characters? I love. And it's not a situation where it's like, it's painful to see a character that like, does change, you know, like, which can happen in excellent book series, you know, where you're like, oh, they used to be so heroic and brave and innocent and kind and then like life made them gritty. And it's so tragic to see that. Like, no, we're not talking about good character work. We're talking about the author being like, I don't think that way anymore. Therefore my character doesn't either. And it's like, what? Yeah. Yeah. 100%. Yes, it does feel like they should have stuck. Yeah, finish that storyline. Yeah. And G-Gang, oh my God. Like if we could not drag it out for so long. If we were gonna have one villain for 11 books, I would have rather it had been Dark and Rawl. Yeah. Then don't read the version of Gaelic. I mean, I don't plan to. Are they, are, yeah, because if they're not like these early books, I don't want to. Yeah, maybe the Nicky Chronicles. Like I'm, and the first Confessor. Like those are, if I was gonna read any more in the series, those would probably be the ones I'd be open to. Cause I still like Nicky. Don't like a lot of what he did with Nicky, but I still like Nicky. Yeah. And I would, if they existed, I would read books about Nathan. They're like just about Nathan. Yes. I still like Nathan. I like Nathan too. He's the only character I felt that ended the series unscathed that I was not soured on him. He didn't, cause he also wasn't in it enough to like be ruined by this change of heart. He could just keep being that like trickstery guy over there that you're like, what's he up to? He just like, that was his energy from Stone of Tears through Confessor. Yeah. Yeah, we can talk about the TV show. Yeah. I mean, I haven't watched it since it came out. Especially if you like Richard and Katelyn and said you'll just throw books. Oh no. Yeah, I like the show. I don't, yeah. I don't think it's like good television, but I think it's extremely entertaining. Yeah. I found the books before the show came out. And so when I watched it, I was like, this is not. Exactly. And I was in a phase at the time where I did not understand that adaptations do not need to be verbatim books. Yeah, I saw the show first and then noticed in the credits, they're like based on the books by Terry Goodkind. And I was like, oh snap. I should read that. And then I read Wizard's First Rule and I was like, this is not like the show. Yeah. But yeah, I think the, because I watched the whole show myself, like, because like when Netflix, it was just like when Netflix was like still mainly DVDs and they just had a few things on streaming also. And I was like, well, Legend of the Seekers on here. And I was like, all right. And instead of studying, I just watched Legend of the Seeker. And yeah, I just had, it was like good escapism. It was like fun, funny each episode. Had like a fun little arc, you know, the characters. Like, I feel like they had the actors they had on the show, like had a good dynamic. It was just fun. And then my roommates and I all like watched them together as like, I had like six roommates, like we all shared an apartment. And like that was like a show that we could like routinely sit together to watch. Cause like, you didn't have to pay that close attention. If someone missed an episode, it didn't really matter. So like, we could all kind of like laugh at like the goofy or fantasy parts of it. And like, yeah, it was just like fun. It wasn't like great. And like, this is where like, I know you like rings of power, but this is where I'm like rings of power. Like it wasn't even fun. Cause I was like, I can like a bad show if it's fun. Like I don't need it to be quality. Like if it's just like campy fun or like whatever. Like I watched CW shows, like whatever. Like so, yeah. Cause also Lich and the Seeker is not like trying to convince you that it's very epic. Like it's at no point being like, oh no, this is like very serious dramatic stuff. Like, Lich and the Seeker knows what it is. Yeah, it's trying to be campy. Yeah. Exactly, it's cheesy and fun. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I, Caitlin, I was a little bit that way back when it first came out, but I don't die. Was it in 2020? I thought it was 21, but it might have been 20. But it was like when the last couple of years. Wow. For some reason I thought it was, oh yeah, it's 2020. For some reason I thought it was like longer ago. I don't know why. I remember like when he died, like. Yeah. Yeah. That's where the joke started that his ghost was haunting my apartment. That's right. Yeah, September 17th, 2020, man. Carrie Lee, good kind. He was born in 1928. He did finish his Stahar series, so he didn't need to have Brandon Sanderson finish it for him, as if that would have happened. It's true. That was wild that he like kept, and he was 72, so who? You just missed us going over our ratings. Sorry, Beth. No, she's talking about I premiered a short video. Before this, like my best sci-fi books of the year. Sorry, Beth. It's not very long. It's like 16 minutes, so you can catch up. Yeah. Yeah. I haven't, yeah. I don't know that I have a whole lot to say about the show just because I haven't watched it in so many years. So I don't remember that much about it, to be honest. Just that it was like campy and I was irritated that it wasn't closer to the books at the time, but now I probably wouldn't care. Cause they made it like, we talk about how the sort of truth books like are kind of adventure of the week, but the show is like truly adventure of the week, where like they take a lot of stuff from the books and just create an isolated, independent, little one episode story about it. So that, and like anytime, like the show avoids Richard actually leveling up, which is actually a really great idea because then he can continue to have adventure of the week stories. Whereas like in the books, because he becomes so OP, it's like, where do we go from here? So like, if I remember, it's been a long time since I watched it, but when they do the Stone of Tears story, where he goes to the Palace of the Prophets, cause they do have him do that. And like in the book, what's her name? The one with the violet eyes? I don't know. She like tries to take his power and he's like running for her. And then at the last minute, he realizes what's going on and is like, no. But in the show, I think it's Nikki that's doing it and she does succeed in taking his power. So he like doesn't have those powers anymore for like the rest of the show. So he can just like be the seeker with a sword and like, you know, like just like how fun adventures and it's not like OP. So I think that was a really good idea. Yeah. Honestly. Makes sense. It's evil Nikki. Yeah. The guy who played Zed was a lot of fun. And the actress who played Kara was amazing. I loved her. Oh, was he? I didn't know he was the mouth of Sauron. I mean, it is hard to tell who is under there. Like, I think I'm forgiven for not recognizing him. Yeah. That's interesting. It would be fun at some point to go back and rewatch part of the show. I feel like it's, I mean, aside from the fact that the Mord Scythe are still dominatrixes, it's generally pretty family friendly. It aired on ABC like it didn't like, you know, 8 p.m. So it wasn't like an HBO. Right. Yeah. It's pretty tame. I think it's on Netflix or it used to be anyway. I don't know. That's where I originally saw it. I don't know what it still is. I owned the DVDs. I don't know what happened to them. Well, yeah. Yeah. Now I want to watch the show. Each episode opened with like a rehash of like Rich Zed's voice from like the first episode, like they replayed the same audio track of him speaking from the first episode going, Richard, you are the true seeker. Oh, whoa, that's right. Like music. I forgot about that. Oh, my God. It's very corny. Yeah. And anytime Zed would do magic words, it was like, blah, blah, blah, blah, not great. Gosh. And I mean, the very first episode opens like the first thing you see. No, I think the first thing you see is Katelyn riding on a horse. But like after that, the first thing you see is Richard shirtless building a bridge and you're like abs. All right. Where are we going with this? Legend of the Seeker. Somebody's saying it's like stream. Well, it originally aired on ABC. So I mean, wouldn't that mean that Disney Plus had it because ABC is owned by Disney? He would think, but he knows. I liked the second season better because it had more of Cara in it. But yeah, I mean, there's that whole episode where they make Zed dress up as a duchess and they make Cara dress up like a princess and both Zed and Cara. And they make Richard wear this like bleach blonde wig so he looks like a complete tool. Oh, it's amazing. Yeah, free with cable TV on ABC. That's not, what if you don't have cable TV? Well, it's annoying. So that's free episodes. Oh, maybe you can just watch it. I don't know. There's always a way. Wow. 2008 to 2010. Yeah, cause I definitely started reading the books like well before it started then. Cause I probably started the books in like, when would it have been? Like 2001 maybe? In Da Vinira. Yeah, you can watch it with Anne's. Yeah, that's okay. It has been an era, but hey, we're moving on with the podcast and reading Witcher, so it'll be fun. Yeah, yeah, that is pretty good for Anne to skip up. And I mean, like I think Legend of the Seeker is a lot more fun to watch than like Hercules and Xena and Beastmaster, which is like more in the vein. Xena is great. Well, when the people talk about the Legend of the Seeker show being bad, I'm like, that's because you're thinking of it alongside Game of Thrones and things like that. But like, that's not what it is. It's like Hercules and Xena and Beastmaster, like that's the kind of show that it is. Well, and speaking of which, it's funny like on Google, when I look it up, it says people also search for Xena, Hercules, Merlin, and the Xenara Chronicles. It's also funny to be watching Legend of the Seeker because like they shot it in New Zealand. And so like basically all of the cast that are not the main cast, like all the Dahar and soldiers, everyone in the Midlands is a Kiwi and they all sound like it. So like all the Dahar and some of these like down under accents. And it's also funny to me is like Craig Horner is also Australian. The guy playing Richard, but he like they made him do an American accent. And he said that he was like, to try to like get the accent right, he would emulate Leonardo DiCaprio. And as soon as he said that, I was like, that's who you sound like. Yeah, when you speak in your American accent, he's like Leonardo DiCaprio just like really enunciates and it's like really easy to mimic it. But then he also said he was really mad when he like, I'm not actually mad but like kind of upset when they started shooting. And now he shoots a scene with Craig Parker who plays a darkened role and he gets to keep his British accent. And Craig Horner was like, excuse me, why does he get to keep his accent? Do I have to be American? That's funny. Like I think it would have made sense for him to keep his accent and then have everyone from like Westland have like Australian accents. Like that would make sense. It would. And I think Tabitha or Tabrit Bethel who played Kara, I think she's also Australian but they made her do an American accent. Oh, interesting. Wow. Yeah, I never got into Merlin. My roommates in college watched it a lot. I didn't either. I watched like an episode and it just didn't. Same. Didn't hook me. No. Didn't have abs. Yeah. I'm glad people are excited for the Witcher read-along. That'll be fun. I think this is excitement for the show that they need not for our read-along. What? I mentioned the read-along. I thought she meant the read-along. Well, I'm excited. I mean, I don't want to speak for Priscilla perhaps. That is what she meant. But I'm reading that as being excited for the show since we're talking about fantasy TV shows. Fair enough. Or both. She can be excited for both. That, oh, for Merlin. I mean, legend of the seeker was wise. It should be the abs in like the first five minutes. And then never again. That's fine. Oh, you're not excited for this one. See, it was about the read-along. Look at that. Very good, very good. Actually, I was talking to my friend who's just read The Last Wish for the first time that she has seen the show. And I was like venting all my fury that like before she had no context for and me being like, yeah, well, they made Geralt not even a character in the show and they totally changed the dynamic between Geralt and Dandelion and named him Yaskier for some freaking reason. And I was just like very upset. And she was like, yeah, no. I mean, now that I've read The Last Wish, yeah, you're right. Like the show, this is not what Geralt is like. This is not what Dandelion is like. She was like, when she read The Last Wish that her reaction to Dandelion and Geralt was like, oh, they're like actually friends. It's not like this twat over here that shows up and sometimes annoys him. Like they're like actually friends. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which I have read The Last Wish before, just not any of the other ones, so. And I mean, Geralt isn't just like a hot guy with a sword that grunts fuck sometimes. Like he has a three-dimensional, complicated personality and worldview and all Henry Cavill did would just go like, ah, just deeply upsetting. I need to do my reread of the book. All right, you just finished The Last Wish. Last Wish is a lot of fun too. I think like even for people that may not like the main series, The Last Wish is sort of destiny because it's so much like fairytale retellings in such like interesting ways. Cause it isn't just retelling. I mean, it's doing quite interesting twists on fairytale. It is. So I just think it's a ton of fun even if you're never gonna read the main series. Yeah. Yeah, I'm looking forward to my reread and then we'll do our, what is our, our live stream is... The last Tuesday, which I think is the 31st. Yes, it's the 31st. So tune in. Whereas like The Witcher show, I feel like is like halfway between Legend of the Seeker and Game of Thrones. It's like not at the premiere level that like, even if it brings to power, I don't think it's good writing but like the production quality is on par with like Game of Thrones and stuff. And Witcher isn't as like totally cheap and crap looking as Legend of the Seeker, but it's not like HBO. No. Yeah. I mean, I think that's fair. And the writing I think is also somewhere between like it's not quite as campy and episodic and dumb as Legend of the Seeker, but it's not like Game of Thrones either. It's in the middle. It's very mid. It's a mid. That's what the young people are saying. Yes. Well, I don't know that we have like much else to say about this. I feel like it's kind of. Yeah, we've ranted all there is to rant about what a disappointment, very good kind turned out to be young man. Yes. Well, we had a good run. He had a good run. You had a good run. Yeah, that was interesting. I do like doing this stuff, though, because it like I'll I've tended in the past to put off really long series just because it feels so daunting. And so yeah. And so doing a year long read along is nice because you can I can actually like complete the longest series this way. I feel like it's with long series. If you were not disciplined in like trying to read like one a month or one every other month and like get your way through it, like it's just not going to happen. Because if you let any time pass in between, now you're in a place where you might need to reread stuff and it's too long for you to ever do that. And then you're like, that's it. I'm never finishing it because I'm never going to reread all that. So if you don't keep up with it, if you lose momentum, that's it. You're fucked. Yep. More betrayal than disappointment. Yeah, same on board and then he ruined them. That's kind of how I feel. Yeah, but it's, you know, like we're getting through a lot of these long series that I've been meaning to read. So I did all the Abercrombie books last year, did a bunch of these good kind books, doing Witcher. It's fun. Well, yeah, it is good to do it with people. It's kind of like a gym buddy, but for going on a fantasy quest. It's a fellowship of sorts. A fellowship. Fellowship of the sword we were. Yeah, it's too bad. Because I do think like, yeah, like I said with like what the show did, like if he had kept the power levels down and not gotten so crazy politically speaking, if we had maintained like episodic adventures like we got in Stone of Tears, and like you can have an overarching baddie that takes a few books, but like, yeah, he could have maintained, he could have had a lot of stories with these characters. Yeah. If he had not done that. Yep, but he had other priorities. Yeah. So just unfortunate. Yeah, it is quite a shift. Yeah. And it's kind of sudden. Yeah. Yeah. It is a relief then though, when you read books like the first law books, because there are a series that go off the rails like this and then to read a series like first law, we were like, that's why like when a little hatred was announced, and it was coming out, I was like, I mean, I will read it, but like, to go back to the world of the first law, are we sure we have more to say, are we just going back to the well, because the publisher needs something and you're like, let me do you another Fergus law. And then I read a little hatred, that's like, I'm so, so sorry. Yeah, this is great. But it's a fair concern, consider how often that does happen where it's just like, why are we still going? Right. Yeah. But without the tattoo. But have you read anything Terry Goodkind wrote that's not sort of truth related at all? Because he has written things that are not at all related to sort of truth. They never looked interesting to me, so no. Fair enough. Have you? No. What would you say is your favorite or best long series that you've ever read? First law. What does this need to be asked? Yeah, I mean, first law is a good one. I mean, I know it has its issues, but the Chronicles of Narnia holds a place in my heart just because I grew up on it. I only read like, I definitely read Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe and I read the horse and his boy. That's kind of been the only ones I read. I read all of them many, many times. Stay in your lanes. Oh my gosh. What other long, oh, the Murderbot Diaries and the Wayward Children series. Those are such short books. Well, the books are short, but there's a lot of books in them. Like, Wayward Children, there's like nine books. All of them together is like one sort of truth book. Still. It's different, I think, because I have a lot of nostalgia associated with it because it was my first introduction to fantasy really. Like, I got a copy of copies for my seventh birthday and I reread the hell out of them. But yeah. The Gerini Cycle. Oh, those are good. I haven't read all of them, but I like the ones I've read. I've never even heard of that. Oh, they're good by Catherine Kurtz. I think most of them are out of print now, but they're like medieval-inspired fantasy. They were good. Medieval-inspired fantasy. That's not something you see too often. But she actually wrote a story in with a degree in medieval history. That can be good or bad, though. Sometimes someone had a degree in something you're like, but that doesn't mean you're good at writing a story. You know what I mean? Yeah, no, but she... I just want to show off what they know. All right. No, but she actually was. Like, she was genuinely like really good. I got into some of her books when I was in college. They were good. For me, I was good. Yeah, I didn't really read series. I mean, I read Nancy Drew when I was a kid and I read probably 50 of those, but it's not like a series. It's like you just like pick another one because they're not... It's amazing. This girl is like 20 years old and she solves like 70 mysteries all at the age of 20 somehow. Somehow. Yeah. She has a time-turner. I think that's canon. I had a lot of long-running series like that that I read. Like the historical Christian version of Nancy Drew was the Mandy series. Did anybody else read the Mandy series? The historical... Like what is un-Christian about Nancy Drew? No, they were actively like she was a Christian and it like had Bible verses in it and stuff. But like she's like actual Nancy Drew books are not like in any way objectionable for... No, no, no. I just meant that these were like from a Christian publisher. Yeah. Okay. It seems like why do we deem to Christianize her? She's fine. Yeah, well, and also it was like historical. Like they were set in like the late 1800s. Well, I read the American Girl books, which also wasn't really a series in like an ongoing sense. But I reread like I loved the Samantha Christmas one and the Kirsten Christmas ones. Like I read the both of those a ton. Like I reread them. Yeah, I read a lot of the American Girl stuff. Those were good. And Boxcar Children and Baby Sitter's Club and Sweet Valley Twins. So yeah, I read all that stuff. But that was like child like young child. I did read Ella Enchanted 16 times. So I was very busy. Didn't have time for anything else. I haven't changed. I don't think I like and then reread it to death. A lot of Christian books like that. Fantasy way. Yeah. I remember there was this series of like Christian horror books that I read when I was a teenager. And so like each book would yeah. But like the twist was that like everything was actually just demons that they had to like cast out. So it would be like there would be like a book in the series where like, oh, we think there's aliens, but it turns out actually the aliens are demons. And then there's haunted house one, but to the ghost is really demons. It was like that. After the fifth one, you're like, I think I, I know where this is going. Oh, yes, that was demons. I was quite a twist. Oh my gosh. All the babysitters. I've never read a single babysitter's club book. I did. I liked them. No, but I have read this present dark. No, I did read a lot of Frank Peretti. Frank Peretti is somebody said this and I was like, that is exactly it. Frank Peretti was like the Christian Stephen King. Wow. Yeah. It wasn't like ghost bumps. No. Now his stuff was like for adults. It was like Stephen King, but Christian. That sounds way more terrifying than Stephen King. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, this present darkness was freaky. I read the oath, which I kind of wanted to reread of because I remember it being terrifying and I bought a copy actually like for super cheap because I kind of want to read it at some point because I remember like staying up to like 4 a.m. to finish it because I was so scared I had to like finish it to see what happened. Oh, I read Lloyd Alexander when I was a kid, but it also wasn't serious. But like I read Gypsy Rizka and Time Cat and probably some others. I didn't really read serious. I did. There's another series I want to reread to that I tracked down copies of. Well, I read a lot of Tamora Pierce, like a lot of her stuff. And I read a lot of stuff from. Oh, God, what's her name? Oh, I did read. Um, did you have read those books that like there's not, I mean, it's a series again in terms of like, there's many of them, but they are not like contiguous of that like are supposed like diaries, but like historical. Oh, yeah. I kind of got bored with those. Like I got encouraged to read them, but I was like, these are kind of boring. I reread the Marie Antoinette one a ton. And then I also read the Titanic one. And then I read, there was one about, I think a Chinese girl that was like working on the railroad. Oh, yeah. I know I read a bunch of them because they were around, but like. All my friends were reading Animorphs, but I never read those either. Same. They were weird looking. So I never really read them. I read a lot of Tanneth Lee. And I have royal diaries. Well, there was the royal diaries. That's was like Marie Antoinette, but there was also the ones that are like non-royal diaries where there was just like historical diaries. I never read the royal ones, but the royal like the Marie Antoinette one had like gilded sprayed pages. It was very royal looking. I did, however, read the Princess Diaries series. I did not. No, but the Clady Journals by Tanneth Lee, I tracked down copies of because it's another series I kind of want to reread at some point. I loved them. They were like kind of these weird creepy YA fantasy books. Yeah, those were great. Oh, there were these creepy like mystery kind of ghost stories, but they were not supernatural. There was like ghosts in the gallery and peppermints in the parlor. Oh, fun. Um, who wrote those? They were like very like sinister with like Dickensian like evil adults that are like terrifying these poor children. I read Ghost in the Gallery a ton. Oh my gosh. Priscilla, I love that you've also tracked down copies of the Clady Journals. Would people be in up for a reread? They're not very like a read-along. They're like not very long books. And I've been wanting to read them. I remember loving them. She writes such like weird fantasy. Let me see if I can find. So this is the first the first book in the series. Tower Tower. You don't like the name. Yep. Yeah, those were great. That would be fun. I always did like fantasy. So I actually didn't like I was reading mainly historical fiction in classics. I read a lot of like classics that were abridged for kids, too. I read a lot of classics like as a teenager. I was very I was a little snooty about that. But yeah, like fantasy, but then classics and Christian romance series. I like truly did not read fantasy until I I read the the sort of truth books. Wow. Like other than other than Harry Potter, which obviously I read. Yay. Oh yeah. I read a lot of fantasy, but I didn't read adult fantasy until sort of truth. And I think I was like 16 when I read them. I've probably told the story before, but I initially read them because there was this older guy I kind of had a crush on who was really into them. Like let me borrow the books. Ain't that just the way? Yeah, but the books had much more lasting power than that crash. Wow. That is a lot of letters. I have not heard of this. I haven't either. I shouldn't have by a little one Spiegel. Interesting. Yeah. I think the only fantasy I read before sort of truth was like Harry Potter, obviously. And like I read Gail Carson Lafayne books. So I enchanted the two princesses of Omar. She had these like fractured fairy tales that were like super, super short. I read those. But like other than that, I was reading historical fiction. Yeah. It didn't occur to me to read fantasy. Wow. That's interesting. Yeah. Nope. I've always been. I've never been in big historical fiction. Yeah. I was just or classics like in college or in high school. Like if I was reading something that wasn't for class, it was probably a classic. So like Jane Eyre, Count of Monte Cristo, Three Musketeers, like stuff like that. Yeah. I read a lot of like female written classics. So a lot of like Bronte sisters, Jane Austen, Louise Mailcott. Yeah. No, I've always read male writers for telling me. The Disney Jane Eyre. But yeah, I didn't read Jane Austen until college when they like part of my classes, writing prejudice was like required reading for one of my classes. Yeah. No, I liked them. Oh, my pleasure. When he was open with High Bethany, I thought this was directed at Bethany. No. And I was like, oh, Bethany, someone wants to tell you about your rant review for Babel. Yeah. I had a like it was fine and I have criticisms review. Are you wet? I had a I liked it, but have criticisms review of Babel. I I think I gave it like four stars. I was like, that's what I would guess for you. Yeah. That sounds right. And checks out. I am reading a terrible book right now. Most people like Babel. Most people like it. So listen, I mean, I liked it. I just Most people aren't like nuts like me about certain things that I'm like, this makes no sense. Like, and as Kyle tells me, you focus on a little thing and it ruins things for you and you're not wrong about it, but you need to stop letting things ruin things for you. And I'm like, hey, he's not wrong. But yeah, Kyle did comment on my Babel review being like, I don't think I can continue. I don't think I can maintain my four star rating of Babel after watching this and agreeing with everything that you said. I was like, see. Yeah. I wanted it to be a new favorite and it definitely wasn't that like. So also, but like, I don't know. I was like, it, I didn't, it wasn't like actually a situation where like hype ruined it for me because no matter how hyped it was, like from the beginning, when people were hyping it, I was like, I have this like sixth sense spidey sense that I'm like, I don't think I'm going to like it. I was like, I don't know why I can give you zero reasons for this. The cover is stunning and I love dark academia. You're right. The character work was not good. Yeah. Yeah. Which is a lot of what my video is about that and the magic system makes no sense. But I don't care about the magic system, whatever. It's fine. I don't care. You know that I care a lot. I know, I know, I don't, that doesn't bother me. But like the, honestly, my biggest issue with it was also the character work and the fact that like I feel like it's trying to make these sort of universal statements through this cast of characters that are like lacking nuance. And so therefore like it doesn't have the weight behind it. I'm like, part of me is like, if you wrote this in another 10 years, maybe you'd have more life experience. Or if you wrote it, if you wrote it over 10 years, like the secret history or Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell, which took a decade to write each of those. It's like it shows. Yeah. Because like I like what it was trying to do, but I just think it needed time. She needed time. I think you and I pretty much feel like the same way about Babel. I just feel more extreme as usual about how much I hate when it got wrong. Nobody's shocked. Yeah. Well, because like there's stuff that you hand wave all the time, like magic systems. And I'm like, absolutely not. Yeah. Whereas like I'm just I'm not like the only time that's going to bother me is if I'm already having a really bad time with the rest of the book. But like that's the thing though. He's like, I mean, I am not going to tell you you're wrong to give it four stars, but I'm about to tell you that you're wrong to give it four stars. But like it's like something something has to work for me to forgive something not working. So it's like if your magic system sucks, then like I you got to have a really good story, really good characters. If your character work sucks, then you've got to have a really cool world, a really cool plot. Like it has to like, you know, something like Babel magic sucks. Characters suck plot and pacing pretty terrible. I was just like what in here is working? Okay, well, I'll tell you. I'll tell you what carried it for me was the themes and the footnotes. But like I thought it was such a misuse of footnotes, especially when she used footnotes to develop characters when we had character moments in a footnote. I was like, that's not where that goes. That's what a footnote is for. I liked it. I liked the footnote use. But yeah, I mean, honestly, like those were the things that they had to do with Andy Weir. I can rant about. Oh, the pacing does not get better. No, no, the pacing is not great. I get why people love it. I'm like, I get what it was trying to do and I like the project of it, but I just didn't. I thought, I think if my four star is a little generous, it was like a three and a half or two four, but like I still liked it more. I don't know. But yeah, it was disappointing. Obviously, like I have an hour-long video about it going to like all the things that bother me. But on Goodreads, I just said, like as an essay, this is five stars. As a novel, two stars is generous. Yeah. I mean, I don't feel as strongly as you do, but like I do think it has problems. So I mean, she clearly knows her stuff. The linguistic stuff was interesting. But it's like that goes in an essay, unless there's an actual legitimate reason for this to be here in this novel. Like you just were like, I know things and I want to tell you the stuff I know. And it's like, I'm really happy for you. But that's not where this goes. That's a reason, a plot reason for this to be here. I don't mind that. Like that. That's how I feel about like like magic systems are world building all the time where I'm like, I don't need two pages on how the latrines work in your magical world because you just want to tell people that you invented a way for this to work in your world. Like I'm really happy for you. Save that for the appendix. I don't, this does not go here. That's fair. I just wasn't bothered by it. But yeah. Project a good execution. Yeah. Or at the very least, I would say the execution was mid. I was sad because I like preordered three copies of it and really was. See, that's why I was like, I had this spidey sense and I was like, I don't think I'm going to like it. So like I only ordered one copy. It was the Waterstones edition, which doesn't cost more than a regular edition, but it is a special edition. So I didn't order the regular copy or any other special editions. I just did the Or Waterstones one because I was like, if I end up loving it, I do have one cool edition of it. Right. But I don't think I'm going to like it. Well, there you go. There I am. Beth, I have so many problems with Andy Weir even more than I can talk about right now. But you're a good kind, y'all. You're a good kind. I feel like you're a good kind. Like both of us are like, oh, Terry Grandpa just went a little off his rocker. It's unfortunate. Like I feel like still kind of quite warmly towards him. I'm just like, oh, uncle Terry got a little nuts there at the end. Yeah. Beth, I think you're right. I think her next book probably is going to be very much an essay. I'll probably still read it or like listen to the audiobook, but I'm not going to, you know, because I think it's I think it's interesting like the topic is interesting enough to me that I am curious to see what she has to say about it. But like, I don't know that it. I mean, I frankly wish she would just write nonfiction. She has. She wrote a very good essay. I know, but I mean, it looks nonfiction books and you can write nonfiction in a very engaging and like, you know, very like it doesn't have to be like a hard read. You know, like you can write a very like chatty engaging fun commercially like accessible nonfiction. I actually think that would be really interesting if she wrote like commercially accessible nonfiction about the topics in Babel. Like that would have been really interesting. That's kind of what she wanted to do. And I was like, stop pretending this is a novel. The history of linguistics and colonialism. I mean, that's basically like that's the part that's interesting to me. And I agree. I do agree, actually. I probably would have loved it if it was an essay instead. What's that? It's an essay of five stars. But like, it's a different rubric for judging a novel. That's true. Well, a review of the entire series. Yeah. I have a video review or a video that's like a discussion of should you read it and pros and cons of like Terry Goodkind in general. But now having read this far in might be interesting to do something. Yeah, I guess I would just I would add to the end of that video that like everything I said is true. But also it goes off the rails like after like the first few books. So like I maintain this, but then just like just stop after like the first one or something. I liked the Poppy War series. I liked the first book in that series and it was a debut. And I was like, this is far from perfect, but it's promising. And then I did not like the second and third books. And now I really didn't like Babel and I don't plan to read with his yellow faces. It's just like Poppy War. I was like, but this is your first one. So and then it was like, oh, no, that's the peak. OK, OK, so no. So yeah, I would say. I would say the first book in the series was my favorite, but I did like the entire trilogy. It's just a lot. It's a lot to read. And then Babel was also like, I liked it, but I had more problems with it. And I want to read Yellow Face. We'll see. That's also not fantasy. Like it's not or speculative at all. So I mean, Babel was hardly speculative, and I wish it just honestly like if she's not going to write nonfiction, which is really what she should do. I wish she had just written historical fiction because like her trying to introduce the speculative element that she had not thought through and made zero sense. I'm like, why just write historical fiction? That's clearly what you want to do. All of this is basically historical fiction and that you just like threw in Silver Magic. Yeah. I mean, I think it's a cool concept. I don't know. I like I thought the concept was fun, but yeah. Fun is not the word I would use to describe Babel. Yeah. I mean, I think the poppy ware is another situation where like I don't think she's she's either uninterested in it or she needs to be told she's not good at characters. And like Rin did all of her like dynamic character moments, dynamic character growth, dynamic character changes in the poppy war. And after that, Rin like reached her final form at the end of poppy war and then just stayed like that for the rest of the books. And I'm just like, that's so uninteresting to me. That is true. That is true. Yeah. So like if you're interested in the project of how she's like taken history again and been like, let me like do something with that in this like speculative version of it. Because that's I mean, she was like, what if Mao was a girl? So like if that's interesting to you, like this just like a general history, but like if you want to read a story about a character and about like this interesting magical world and like their journey through it, it's not that like it is that a bit in poppy war, the first book, it does have that. And that's why I liked poppy war. And I was like, it's still not like quite there. Like it's got some pacing issues and it's you know, it's not perfect, but like quite promising. And then it was just like, oh, no, that was the best character stuff that we were ever going to get out of this whole trilogy. Uh, Christopher, I agree. I agree. The Mexican gothic did a better job tackling similar themes. I mean, yeah. Similar to Babel. Not poppy war. No. So you're just typing about poppy war. Yeah, that's similar. Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah, no similar to Babel. What does the Mexican gothic have to do with poppy war? Nothing. I do not see the connection. No. Yeah. But I feel like, I mean, if we're going to talk about this, I'm clearly, I've made my feelings clear about RF Kwong's books. But I do feel like in general, egotism really shows in writing and any time that that starts happening is when I stop liking books and Terry Goodkind shows like a lot of egotism in his later books and that's when they are not good anymore. And like, I feel like there's a lot more egotism in Babel than there was in the poppy war. And I think it shows and like anytime an author thinks they're really good as opposed to like trying to be good, it suffers, you know? Like I think Empire of the Vampire is extremely egotistical. Like I think it Jay Kristoff comes off very egotistical in how he's written that novel. Whereas like my favorites, Neil Gaiman and Joe Abercrombie, like if you talk to them, like they're like at the top of their game. They could act very egotistically, but both of them are like, I don't know. Like I write stuff. I hope it's good. Like people keep reading what I write. Thankfully, they're not like, I am a legend. If they were, they're writing what's up. Yeah. Well, and I think that's true is it's like, I think some of the best authors keep working at their craft of writing and find places to improve. So, yeah. Anytime you think you've got to figure it out, this is when you should be worried. It's, well, it's also why like the worst version, because like there are some really great indie published books, but the worst versions of indie published books are from people who like think they're really doing something. I don't like, oh. This has never been done before. Either it has for sure, or like maybe there's a reason this hasn't been done before. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We see you authors. You tell on yourselves in what you write. Yeah, it's kind of true. That's a big problem that I've had with V. E. Schwab. Like, I feel like she's gotten much more egotistical, and I feel like the books have also gone down in quality as a result. I can see that. Well, I mean, I think it's like people get harder to edit, like somebody else too, who I think similarly is not getting edited the way she used to, and like it shows is Marissa Meyer. I don't know, but I'm nodding, like, yes. I really enjoyed the Lunar Chronicles, but those were such big bestsellers that I think they just kind of let her do what she wants to do now, and her stuff is not edited the way it needs to be, and it's just very like, it's okay. I feel like that's probably true with Lee Bardugo, because like I just read Hellbent, and I was like, what? But yeah, I also thought you were going to say Sarah J-Mas. Yeah. I mean, yeah. I think she also doesn't get edited as much as she did. That isn't a, I feel like there's two different kinds of edited. There's like authors that just like nothing gets cut out is one kind of not edited, and then there's like, no one's telling them no about like things they want to do in their books. Like, and those are like, some authors have both happening. I feel like with Sarah J-Mas it's both, but like with like, 9th house and, or sorry, Hellbent, isn't like a tome, like it's the same length as 9th house. It's not like, it doesn't feel bloated or anything. It just feels like, did you have like people that you were bouncing these ideas off of that were like actually telling you like whether or not this is good? Yeah. Well, I mean, I think like Sarah J-Mas, I still, well, although I will say like, her last book was kind of disappointing because it didn't give me the things that I most like, I most go to her books for, like she has certain things that she can do. And I get why Liana, you don't like them because the things that I like from her are things that I don't think you like in books in general. Happiness, joy. Joy, love. Cozy, cozy character moments. Although I do love carry on. I have exceptions. There's an exception to every rule. There is, there is. No, but like what I like from her is cozy character moments that have nothing to do with the main plot, to be honest. And like her last book didn't give me what I wanted from it, but I, and I also think she does, at least for me, like does a good job writing broken characters, finding healing. Like those are the things that I like from her books, her books. And then when she tries to veer too much into like a lot of action and a lot of plot, I'm letting those off the rails. World building is not a strong suit. And like I've seen like posts, you know, where people are like, Hey, comment below your top, like favorite authors for world building. And anytime I see some like, Serity NAS, I'm just like, you, I mean, you can like her books, whatever, live your life, but world building. They're strong. Not for world building. Jessica, I disagree. I love Silver Flame. It's my favorite book from her, but that's okay. We don't have to agree on it. I loved it. It made me. I heard about that has convinced me that I should never ever read that. You should. She's not it. No, I mean, it's not your thing at all. Don't read it. You'll be miserable, but I loved it. But yeah, world building is not a strength. Also action scenes and like heavy plot, not a strength. Um, like there's things. Yeah. Well, let's say like, I mean, I don't disagree. Like I don't tend to like cozy, warm, happy books, because I just generally don't, but also most of the time, cozy, warm, happy, whatever. It tends to also rely on humor. And I have a very particular sense of humor and I don't think most things are funny. And so like when it is like, all these cute character moments and they're like bantering, like I'm just like completely like unamused and like carry on. Works for me because I think it's very funny. Like it is totally my sense of humor. So it's like this cute, romantic, banshery, cozy. And it's not like, this is funny. I like that. You know what's interesting is that like carry on was very okay for me because it's not my sense of humor. Yeah, it's totally my sense of humor. But I think that's true is like humor is so subjective and like there's a lot of the times when I like, so things like that you didn't like, like legends and lattes. Totally my, like it's totally my thing and it works for me. But yeah, like sense of humor can be so subjective for his carry on to me was not really funny. Like I was like, okay. Especially the second one. I mean, I like the first one, but the one where I think the humor, the humor like peaks in wayward sun. Oh, it's like, because like they go to America. And so all the jokes about them being horrified by America. So good. Oh my gosh. So funny. What are some fantasy authors you recommend? One check out. And one stone of tears and like, you know, oh, well, have you said Joe Abercrombie? Have I told you the good word? First law, but it's like, I mean, it's, it's always really hard to say because like, what is it that you look for? What is it that you like in fantasy? Because like as much as I'm like first law is perfection and everyone in the world should read it. I don't actually think everyone in the world should read it. There's definitely people that I'm like, I love you to really you're a great human. Never read first law. It's definitely not for everyone. Yeah. I think it just depends on like what you like from fantasy to be honest, because there's a lot of variation. Basically like, I think any time you come to my channel, if I'm gung-ho about something, there's exceptions, obviously to every role. But if I'm gung-ho about something, you can bet that whatever else it's got going on, it's got good character work because that's like my favorite thing. Whereas like other channels will be like very interested in world building where I'll be like, oh, this had good world building, but that's not like what makes it my favorite. So like, Yeah. Whereas like I, I think I am. What is first law? Well, do you have an hour? Well, the first law series is by Joe Abercrombie who styles himself Lord Grimdark. It is a, it's not actually the progenitor of all Grimdark, but like it is pretty OG in the Grimdark space. So the first law trilogy is that where it starts, the blade itself before they are hanged and last argument of Kings, which is a trilogy. And then thereafter, he wrote more books that take place in the same universe as that original trilogy. And it's like in essence, the original concept for it was like taking ideas that are very traditional like Lord of the Rings fantasy and doing like the dark mirror version of that where like, yeah, let's have a fellowship. Yeah, let's have a quest. Let's have a wizard that's like a mentor. But what if it was awful? What if it was like politically insidious? What if it was like violent? What if your heroes were kind of like over the hill and like, so it's like a lot of dark humor. It's dark humor and subverting fantasy tropes. Yeah. A lot of gallows humor. Yeah. And it's very, it's extremely character driven. So people who like don't tend to like first law, it's like it has a plot and it definitely has a payoff at the end of the trilogy. But it feels very like, what is the point of this? Like, where are we going with this? Because it's just like a lot of character development character moments and character introspection and stuff like that. So like, it does have a payoff. But like, if you're the kind of person that wants like a really like action packed plot or that you really want a ton of real building, then like, first law is probably not for you. No. Yeah, there's no good guys. There's just protagonists. Yeah. I, it's interesting too, because like, I do like good character work, but I think I'm also a big themes reader. So like, I can excuse a lot if I'm into the way that an author is, is like tackling themes I care about, which is not the case for Leanna. I mean, to me, it's like those themes should be explored through characters encountering things that make them grapple with those ideas. Yeah. Like, if it's just like, I don't know, like I just to me, I'm like, how else do you tackle a theme? I mean, there's, well, there's a variety of ways, but yeah, I, I think it just depends. I like, I can sort of, if I love the character work, I can excuse other things if I'm really into like the way it's exploring themes. I can excuse other things if I'm really into the world building. I think probably the hardest thing for me is, I'm a harder sell on things that are really action driven. I have to really care about what's happening to like something that is really driven by the action, I think. Well, I think that's also, I mean, I've said before, I really hate that modern books that are influenced so much by TV and film do the thing of opening their book, the way that a film does on an action scene, because I'm like that, like, never say never. There are certainly books that pull it off. Actually, the blade itself kind of starts on an action scene. But um, like, the action scenes in books nine times out of 10, the thing that makes you interested in this scene is like what this character is experiencing, like how they're feeling about it and what this means for them. Because like in a movie, you can just get away with a cool visual and it can mean nothing. And you're just like, this is cool to look at. But a book, like, you can't do that. Like a scene, an action scene, like, it's a rare writer that can just describe action happening and it be like fun because you're like, yeah, if you put this on screen, that'd be fun to look at. But reading about like, this exploding here and this hitting this and this over, it's just a list of logistics. And it's like, I don't care about this. If this was a movie, I would love it because I love action movies. But reading about it, it's like, I need to care about this character. So if you open on an action scene, I'm like, I don't know who this is. I don't care if they fall off a cliff. Like, I don't, I mean, if you open a movie like that, I'd be like, oh, wow, that looks so awesome. But a book, I'm like, who cares? Yeah, I don't really like action movies very much either. I know. I for sure do. Which I definitely feel like, um, yeah, like, uh, Red Rising, which I love and I know you do too. But like, my eyes glaze over whenever there's a space battle. But at the same time, if we ever got a really solid adaptation of Red Rising, I think it would be so awesome to see those space battles come to life. But in a book, I'm just like, just tell me who died. Like, I don't know what's what, I don't have no idea what you're describing. I'm not visualizing any of this. I mean, I do okay with the Red Rising. Some of the battles I feel that way, I think for me, the, the most interesting thing if you're going to do a battle scene is the internal experience of a character living through the battle. Like, like that is interesting. Right. Which is why like, opening our battle scene is not a good idea because you're like, who is this? Yeah. I don't even know them. Yeah. Like, why do we care? Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, I get like, an author can open a book that way if they're able to immediately like, get you into this character's headspace and like, take you through this traumatic moment and like, and that's what's, like, that's what hooked you. But when they try to hook you with like, blood, explosion, running, and you're like, who, what? I don't care. If you can't feel where to go in a book. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, because there's plenty of movies that I like, that like, if that was a book, I'd be like, what a terrible book. Like Pacific Rim, that should never be a book. But I love Pacific Rim because it's just like, giant robots fighting giant aliens with like, the best soundtrack of all time. And I'm like, I see where it's like, I've never even seen Pacific Rim because I saw the preview and I was like, that does not look like anything I would be interested in. Although I don't, I've told Pierce Brown this and luckily he agrees that that composer is great, but that like, the best soundtrack for Red Rising is the soundtrack from Pacific Rim. And I listened to Pacific Rim's soundtrack so much while reading Red Rising that when I actually watch the movie Pacific Rim, I'm like, oh, this is the Red Rising music. It's not even Pacific Rim music to me. Oh man, that's so funny. Yeah. But yeah, the composer for Pacific Rim was Ramin Jawadi. That's the same composer that did Game of Thrones and Clash of the Titans and other stuff that I'm blanking on now, but like, he's every soundtrack he's ever done slaps. He's amazing. Yeah. Well, you know who else does, I think a great, there's a, there's a couple of authors who I think are really good at everything. Like they do good character work, good world building and good themes and like somewhat interesting plots. Like Robin Hobb, I think does that. N.K. Jemisin does that. Like I think both of them are just very good at all of it. Yeah. I mean like that's, I do, I did a live chat with Jimmy from the Fantasy Network that's, that we were talking about Job or Crombie, Robin Hobb and George R. R. Martin and the kind of Venn diagram of those three because like all three of them have a ton of crossover where like it's pretty likely that if you like the one, you'll like at least one of the other two because all three of them do really great with characters. All three of them do really good world building. All three of them do really good kind of like grounded historical feeling fantasies. Yeah. And like, yeah, I feel like obviously you might have a favorite and it's possible that you could love one and hate the other. But like, there is just like so much about them that I feel like the three of them are like on the same page with like what is a priority to them when they're writing something. And like George R. Martin is certainly more interested in like magic and deep war for his world. Joe Abercrombie doesn't care about that. But Joe Abercrombie is better at character work than George R. R. Martin. So like they're not the same, but like they do prioritize how they write scenes and how they let their plots unfold and how much time and space they give characters to actually like feel the things that are happening to them. Like they think the same way about how they write. Yeah. I would agree with that. Yeah. Joe Abercrombie does like, I mean he's just in general a history buff, but he does like American history and American Westerns, which is why he wrote a Western in the world of the first law. Yep. But yeah, which I think is also not that we're talking about this, but not to make a value judgment, but I'm about to make a value judgment. I feel like authors who read the genre, primarily read the genre that they write in don't write as well as authors who primarily read something else and then take those sensibilities into the genre they're writing. So like fantasy writers who primarily just read other fantasy, it feels like the watered down version because they're inspired by something that's like the same versus like someone who loves science or loves history or loves politics or whatever. They bring something more interesting into it. Yeah. So I feel like, I mean George R. R. Martin and Joe Abercrombie are big history buffs and Pierce Brown is a big like politics buff, philosophy buff, history buff, like that's what they're into. And so like they're like, let me explore that in a speculative environment versus like fantasy. Primarily people who read fantasy are just like, yeah, it's like, these other writers, the ones that read something that's not fantasy, are trying to use fantasy as a tool to like do something interesting that they already have an idea for, a concept for, versus someone that's like just, just trying to think of a fantasy concept, if that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. No, I hear you. I agree. Well, I feel like I'm like, my energy is like. It's much later for you. It's like tipping. It is like 1030. That's 730 here. So I'm like, the nights just begun. It's just, it's young, you know. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Time to go watch Pacific Rim. Get hype. There you go. You would hate Pacific Rim. Yeah, I probably. Okay, but the trailer has, has Idris Elba shouting, tonight we're cancelling the apocalypse. Like, what more do you need? I mean, I do like Idris Elba, but I would watch. And Charlie Hanum is in it, shirtless. You know, I'll just watch Marvel movies. Ron Perlman is in it, as like a shady shyster. What more do you need? Oh, yes. George R. R. Martin is like, he is extremely interested in like the War of the Roses and the Tudor history. Henry VIII is like, something he's very interested in. And like, once you know that, and you read the Song of Wives and Firebugs, you're like, oh yeah, that's clearly what you're into. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Whereas, and then like Joe Abercrombie, when he told me that it was after watching all of Shakespeare's histories be played by the same cast, like all in like two weekends, that's when he started writing The Age of Madness, and that specifically Orso and Leo were inspired by Hal and Hotspur. As soon as he said that, I was like, oh my God, that's exactly what this is. Of course, that's what this is. I love that. I have not seen the second one because it didn't have the Idris Elba or Charlie Hanum or Guillermo Del Tor. Wait, I don't, yeah, Guillermo Del Tor didn't, I don't think he directed the second one. He directed the first one. Yeah, I was like, there's no way that's going to be as good. Well, in other news, we are now only 25 subscribers away from monetizing our podcast. Do you have champagne ready? No. To stay up till midnight, Bethany. No, I don't think it's going to happen tonight, but it's very exciting. How about that attitude? Listen, midnight for me is in like an hour and a half. Enough time to chill a bottle. You don't have to go buy one, and everything was closed. It's enough time. Pierce, Pierce, Pierce your ear. Pierce Brown, as in I conveniently have Red Rising by, oh, it's too shiny. Here you go. Pierce Brown. Yes, everyone I've talked to is behind me. I have got my Song of Ice and Fire books, my Red Rising books. First Law is like. You know what? I need to be like you this year and start actively trying to interview my favorite authors. Because I started off strong. I got to interview Kate Elliott this week, which was amazing. I love her books. She also is a history buff, actually. But I really want to love to interview NK Jemisin. I just don't know if I could keep it together. I was convinced that I was going to dribble on myself both times that I talked to my favorite authors. That's probably how I would feel. But I'm like, maybe I should just like try to make it happen, you know? Well, it's also great though, because like you, it's very, there's very little opportunity to embarrass yourself in an interview because they're doing the talking. So as long as you don't like, as long as you don't look weird while they're talking. And like have good questions. Yeah. So maybe I'll try. Maybe I'll see if I can make that happen. That would be so exciting. If I could like talk to NK Jemisin. We'll see. That's a thing though, too. Like with not every book that I love is an author that I'd want to talk to. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. So like it happens to like first law is like one of my all time favorite series. And I really wanted to talk to Joe Abercrombie. But like it's not just because I love those books so much. Yeah. It's it's like 50% that I love those books so much and 50% that like I've seen him talk and I know what he's like as a person. And like he's like somebody that you'd like want to get a beer with. Like he's just like a very chill person to talk. So like I love the Kinkiller Chronicle. And if someone was like, Hey, would you like to interview him? We're offering it to you. I'd be like, well, yes. But like I don't really want to interview Patrick Rothfuss. Like I don't think I'd like to talk to him. I don't think that would be that fun. Yeah. I would like to I have met NK Jemisin. And she's really nice. And very has this like very calming welcoming presence. I've met her at a couple of book signings. I would love to talk with her. It'd be great. Yeah. That's what's the best. If it's like an author that you admire and they are like a personable individual. Yeah. That's the best. Yeah. We'll see. Maybe I'll get up the gumption to email her couple of books. The worst that can happen is they'll say no. It's true. Actually, the worst that can happen is they just don't say anything because it's more likely that they ghost you. It's accurate. Yeah. I mean, when I asked Leo Carew for an interview, I asked him via Instagram and he left me on scene for like over 24 hours. And I was like, right. Then he replied. I was like, sure. How's next week? And I was like, yeah. Let me immediately read your new book. Wow. It is exciting when because like I was also really excited for the podcast with me. Because I asked Olivia Dade, who's one of my favorite romance authors, if she would come on. And she was like really excited to do it because she likes my content. And I was like, oh my God, gay. So that was exciting. It is fun like getting to actually like talk to authors you love. They are people I know. That's true. That's fun. Yeah. Well, it's a new year. So we'll see what we what happened. I'm glad you mentioned Jean-Pierre Jemison though because I almost forgot that Curious King is releasing his new like special edition and it's for the fifth season. The pre-order drops on. Remember the one that did like the super special edition first law? Curious King. Anyway, he's doing fifth season now. So like on Sunday like it's like 1 p.m. Maya time. I don't I think 4 p.m. year time is when the like pre-order public sale goes live. Oh my goodness. Seriously. Mm-hmm. How much do they charge for things? I mean, I just got the like lowest lowest tier of blade itself that he was doing. I think it was like $250. Hey, wow. Yeah, it's there. It's called Curious King. If you just Google that in fifth season. No, Brazil is asking if you just Google that. It should come up. Or if you follow him on Instagram, it's Curious King. Man, it's the amethyst edition of the fifth season. Oh my goodness gracious. I really love that. Yeah, you're welcome. I don't imagine having that on your shelf behind you when you interview NK. Oh my god. The question is going to be like, can I is it in my budget? I don't know. Oh my god. I would love a fifth season special edition. It's like one of my all time favorite books. Especially because it's not mean like obviously like if it's a book I love, I don't care how many special editions there, but it's especially exciting about something that doesn't really have. Doesn't have it. Like there's yeah. Okay. Thank you. Yes. Thank you for letting me know. I was unaware. My pleasure. Now you're my competition. I will say this at New York Comic Con orbit had a table and I was like, hey, you know, it would be great. Is like special editions of NK jump like the Burke and Earth trilogy. And they were like, well, you know, we can't say anything yet, but we agree with you. Well, here's how I'm waiting. I'm waiting like, okay, come on. I'm hoping give it to me. Yeah, it's shameful how little there is for. For the, for a meeting for NK Jemisin in general, but particularly the broken earth. I mean, like the whole trilogy won the Hugo award. It's like, yes. Come on. What other trilogy has that honor? And they're just in paperbacks. I mean, I think subterranean did do some limited editions at one point of them, but that's it. Like it's just paperback copies. So yeah, it's a shame. Because like, I mean, I will buy every first law copy that there is, but like I legitimately have shelves and shelves and shelves of a series of books. There's only 10 books. Like I shouldn't have this many copies. Whereas fifth season or the broken earth trilogy, I have three paperback books and that's it. And I, there isn't anything else for me to collect. Yeah, same. And there really should be. Is there a significant anniversary coming up? There might be. I'm wondering if we're getting close to 10 years. Let me see. Has it been that long? I guess so. Maybe, I don't know. Maybe before the fifth season. 2015. Oh, okay. Yeah. So we're a couple of years out. I do wonder if maybe it's possible they're planning like a big 10-year anniversary thing. Also, they just finished releasing all the Witcher special editions or like the new hardcover editions. So like, they probably are like, well, once Witcher is done then the next thing, which isn't necessarily fifth season. But like, that was their big thing right now. And those Witcher hard covers are because like also Witcher didn't have any nice copies either until now. Yeah. So, yeah. They are really nice. I've bought myself the first two so far. Yeah, someone gifted me the first one, but I'll probably, as we go, collect them. Yeah. I mean, when I say bought myself, I mean someone gave me a gift card and I used it for just a while. They are nice. Which it's upsetting to me that like my favorite cover of the new hardcovers for the Witcher is my least favorite book in the whole series. The Tower of Swallows cover is stunning, but I'm like, Tower of Swallows was the worst. Oh man, that's unfortunate. Okay, well, I think I probably should go because I am getting very tired. I thought we would rejuvenate you. See, if you had logged off when you first said you were tired, you'd never know about the NKJM. About the NKJM, it's true. I am very grateful. What other important information will you miss if you leave now? I need to be well rested. I'm having brunch with Jess Owens tomorrow. And you think Jess would mind if you weren't like professionally presentable? No, I would mind if I wasn't awake. But you know what they serve at brunch? Coffee. This is a good point. Well, yeah, on that note then. Kerry, good kind. You're a heck of a dude. I will always be grateful for gratch. Yes. Leanna Larg gratch. You need to make like a merch thing. Leanna Larg gratch? Yeah. So that only I can wear it. Who else is going to wear Leanna Larg gratch? Someone might. People look at that like none of those are words. What does any of that mean? Only like the true fans of your channel. A truly deep cut. Yeah, exactly. All right. Well, all right. On that note. Thank you to everyone who joined us and was a part of this fellowship. And yeah, yeah. Catch you for the other things and stuff. Good night.