 Good afternoon. I'm Lauren Glendividian here for Town Meeting TV on the 20th of January, which is an exciting day in the history of the United States. I'm so glad to be here with Brian Pine and Sarah Carpenter, two of our Burlington City counselors. You're from neighboring, you're from kind of the same neck of the woods there in the north end of Burlington. Welcome. Thanks for joining us today. Thank you. Thanks for having us. Yes. As part of our ongoing coverage of Town Meeting 2021, we're looking at the ballot questions that Burlington voters will be looking at. And before we went on the air, you mentioned that there probably will be six or seven ballot questions. And the one that we're going to talk about today is just cause evictions. And so perhaps, so we're going to do it just a brief overview. And for those of you who might be joining us live today on the 21st, you certainly can call us at 862-3966. I believe that is our correct number. And we'd be happy to take your questions. But just, why don't we just start, Brian? Just cause evictions just seems to me to have been on the table in Burlington for 30 or more years. Am I wrong? No, you're right. This idea was debated in the 1980s, and it went to the voters and was initially passed in concept. And then when our charter change was brought forward in November of 88, there was a pretty vigorous debate and a very well funded campaign to defeat it. So it did go down. It was a 48% in favor of 52 against in the November general election of 1988. And it is a concept that are a policy that we looked to our East because New Hampshire in 85 had adopted a statewide policy. Since there was no momentum at the state level, Burlington decided to take this approach. And the basic concept is that no cause eviction is essentially a policy that allows for the determination of a tenancy really for no cause. So the notion here is that if a tenant abides by their lease, complies with laws and respects the peaceful enjoyment of the property for other tenants, that they should be at least given some level of protection. So that's the basic concept. So, Sarah, you, as Brian has, have been in the housing business for a very long time. Why do you think it's important? And maybe you could just also sum up from your perspective what just cause resolution valid item includes and tell us why you think this is important now? Well, just cause and really is a fairly simple context, which is you need to provide tenants a reason for asking them to lead their tenancy. And already in state law are multiple reasons, violations of lease, you know, causing problems with the tenancy, nonpayment of rent, a bunch of variety reasons. But in Vermont at this point in time, a landlord does not need a reason to ask you to leave. They can ask you outside of your lease or when your lease ends to leave for any reason. And we find in particularly in Burlington that causes a lot of instability and underlying that this wide window to if you would discriminate against tenants, if you don't have to give a reason, you don't have to give a reason and your home is gone. And so we're we were looking at really for tenant stability. I professionally have worked in housing, as you mentioned for many years recently retired, but doing primarily affordable housing, using governmental programs, all of the governmental programs have required this for years. So it's not a new concept. Brian mentioned that it exists in the Hampshire statewide, also in the states of New Jersey, Oregon and California, as well as multiple other individual jurisdictions. And Burlington, with its difficult rental market, we felt it was time to implement it here. And that's really what we've proposed. It might appear like a long question, but we tried to be sensitive to the needs of small landlords by providing some exemptions and we can talk a little bit more in detail. But the main goal is to provide stability to tenant families and a platform where tenants would not be disadvantaged. If they're not popular with the landlord and or maybe reporting the landlord or those kinds of things. So Brian, would you like us to go through your the slide presentation briefly, just provide more of an overview? If we could, we should do it quickly because I don't want to take up the whole show. We only have 30 minutes. We'll go through the slides, you'll run us through it and I'll talk briefly without reading every slide. We will come to the question itself, but I think we should just go through the basic concept we've already covered here. It just it says you essentially have protections unless you, you know, for reasons of nonpayment of rent, reach of the lease, breaking the law, disturbing the peace, those types of reasons would be eviction. Those are grounds for eviction. Those stay the same, those don't change. What we're saying is you can't determine a tenancy without a reason. That's the basic concept. So people often say, Well, we don't evict, we just don't renew the lease. It's it's ultimately to the tenant. It's really the same thing. And so I think this is one of the more complicated or controversial concepts is if a tenant has a lease and the lease ends in 12 months at the end of that 12 months, unless you meet one of these reasons for eviction or non non renewal, we'll go through it some of those exemptions that allow for a non renewal, the lease will renew automatically. So that's a concept that I think has been challenging for folks because of the way our private property system works. The owner of the property gets to decide what happens with their property at the end of the lease. But in this instance, a tenant with a valid lease that they can still renegotiate, they can still raise the rent, they could still say, you know, you're taking up three parking spaces, you're only allowed to have one, that type of thing. But they have to basically renew the lease under reasonable terms. But what if the lease, what if it's a legal document that says, let's lease is up in 2025? Again, you can, you can renegotiate it and you can change the terms and the price, but just still have that individual or that household needs to be given a cause or a reason for termination beyond just beyond just the expiration of the lease. So it does, it does change some of the basic concepts of of that agreement. So why don't we go on and talk a little bit more about the arguments for it? Sure, the basic notion here is that you offer people security of tenure, which means just means you can, you can have some security that if I can keep paying the rent and follow the rules, I can stay here. And that stability has really positive psychological, physiological and economic impacts on tenants gives them the ability to plan that their children are going to stay in the same school district, they're nearby their job, maybe their church, their community, their neighborhood. It creates a level of stability in life that is really beneficial. I think most would agree that having a stable living situation has many multiple benefits. That's the we want to prevent housing discrimination and an example that was provided to our committee was I moved into this unit. I had a spouse, I split up and my new partner, not we were not married, came to live with me and the owner of the property for some reason didn't like my new partner. Oh, they happen to be of a different race than the person who lived here before. I'm suspicious that they booted us out because if that's a type of discrimination, it's pretty hard to prove. But just cause would make it up to more challenging for an owner. Actually, they make it harder, much harder for them to remove a tenant under discriminatory pretenses. Tenants who want to report or need to report substandard housing conditions, there are still we hear stories from Lee Laid and Champlain Valley Office of Economic Opportunity of tenants who live in conditions that really we should not force people to live in, but really they live in because they're afraid that if they complain, and they've already raised it for the owner, but if they bring it to the city's attention, and the city comes down with a code enforcement action, that they'll be followed with a no cause eviction notice. And that is a real, that's a real problem because it's both real threat to the tenant, but it also prevents us from having good enforcement of our housing codes. Because if you're not reporting these problems out of fear, you're allowing for buildings to deteriorate right while you're living in them. And that's a situation I think we would all recognize is not good for anyone. Creating greater stability does tend to turn over your rental units and look less turnover is better for the for keeping prices and a little bit of check over time as units keep flipping, rents tend to go up more quickly. So there is that tendency that the price goes up as tenants change repeatedly over and over again. And that's, that is one of the challenges in our hot market, where there's so much demand and supply. This is not a solution for supply and demand, but it's really trying to regulate the situation so that those who live in a hot, hot market have very few options. They have a little bit of protection. So that's the idea here. And I think it's, you know, it's not a stretch to say that those who have a level of security of tenure are more active in their community, they engage in the PTO, they might get involved in youth sports, or they may, you know, start to do more, you know, gardening in the neighborhood because they know they're going to be there. I'm going to plant some bulbs because I'm going to stick around here for a while and it just results in healthier or vibrant connected communities to have that. We already have a couple thousand housing units, as some Councillor Carpenter mentioned in Broenton that are social housing units, Northgate Apartments, every unit that's owned by Champlain Housing Trust, the Beetle Square Corporation, COTS, Broenton Housing Authority, they all abide by this policy, as does the entire province of Quebec to the north of us. So it's a policy that is in our market, if you will, it's around us, but it's a better thing to have it be level so that everyone's following the same standards. Why should we keep no cause evictions? So this is the argument, why change it if it isn't broken? It essentially allows for removal of a tenant you just don't like. You dislike them, you have a personality conflict. What we tried to do is create a little balance so that owners who live on the property have protection, are basically not covered by just cause. So we did acknowledge that if you live there, you have to be able to get along with the people who live in your property. There's a certain level of sacrifice you make living in a multi family dwelling building yourself as an owner. So we want to give a little bit of protection and benefit to those own occupants and that's why that's why that was put in there as well. Brian, can I just interject because I think this is an argument we hear a lot, but being a landlord and owning a property is not a passive business. It's a really tough business and everyone needs to acknowledge that. But as part of that, in part of your business model, you need to take the time to get to know your tenants and if there's disagreements with your tenants, deal with them, address them, document them and if they're to a point where they are problematic for the property, make sure they're documented because that is cause for asking you to leave and no cause is definitely easier because you don't have to do the work to document the problems, but I think we're saying as any business owner should do, you got to spend the time and when you get the tenant that is problematic, you need to do the work to ask them to leave. But what if you just decide you want your mother to move into the house when the lease is up? Good question. You're now leading into the exemptions. Councillor Carpenter pushed for a number of exemptions and was successful in getting those exemptions. I don't believe my slideshow will reveal that though, so let's go through this quickly and come back to the exemptions. Okay, well once I can find my cursor, which applies to my tenant. Veronica, good slide. I don't think we've talked about this one. This is where the exemptions actually renovation of the unit is sometimes people will take you got to move out because I'm going to renovate and then they just put on new coat of paint and they may lay down some new carpets. That's not the kind of renovation we're talking about. We will allow the ordinance the way it's envisioned will allow for termination of tenancy when it's substantial renovation is required for the building. So you can't stay in this because we're going to actually tear down some walls. So those types of renovations would be ones that could take place and you could terminate if that was the case. But just typical sort of unit maintenance does not need to be done through you don't need to terminate a tenancy to do that. All right, well you're going to because my cursor. Yeah, my cursor is not working. Go through some of the other points off the top of your head. So let's talk about your question. You want to move your family member in your daughter gets out of college maybe in a state New York and decides I'm moving back and you own a building and they want to move in and you say, you know what, I'd love to make it available to you, but I have someone there. Oh, but they're least expires at the end of May under the proposal that we have that would allow for you to move your family member in that would allow for you to essentially terminate the cause. And how much of a problem has unjust cause eviction actually been in the city of Burlington. So yeah, the term is no cause evictions are about 20% legal age says of the official evictions filed in the court that court gets rough annually. They get about 380 to 400 evictions and about 20% are no cause evictions. However, it's one of these things that's really impossible to measure and to quantify because most terminations are really conversations face to face perhaps by email but they are they are amicable and they are they go the way of this I've decided to do X with this unit and at the end of your tendency we're not going to renew and so you just need I'm giving you a warning now that's not an eviction that doesn't show up in any data but legal aid feels that it's enough of a problem that we need a protection that gives people some level of protection from pretty much what are you know what feel like in many cases are sort of arbitrary and capricious least terminations. So Sarah you had just mentioned before if you're you know you're a landlord you're a business owner and you're not happy with your tenants you need to do some documentation what's the nature of the documentation which is you know on this day there was a complaint what was the behavior you know keeping track of all of that you know you have to write it down and it's it's not unlike employment I mean a good employer can have a problematic employee and maybe they've done nothing egregious but over time if you're in a job or they're causing a problem and I think it can be similar with being a landlord and an owner you just need to keep track of it and you need to show that you're disturbing the peaceful enjoyment of the property you know if you're harassing other tenants that you're creating problems you just need to keep track of it. That is really in the law now I think what we're saying is some number of landlords oh my friend is here love to join me in my meetings but I try to get her out and you know you just got to keep track of it and I think it's definitely easier if you don't have to do that and you can just say at the end of the lease term sorry I'd like you to leave it at the end of the presentation so that's what we're saying is you got to keep track of it you've got to be an active landlord go through the work eviction is not a happy circumstance for anybody and it requires it can require a court order side part of this I think the state of Vermont and the city of Brooklyn maybe needs more work on a mediation program there is one underway there is a new mediation effort underway yes right now because of the COVID program the state has actually funded a mediation program that I understand has been quite successful and I'm hoping after the COVID funding disappears that there'll be a way to continue that program because I think that is really beneficial you can't and we've been asked this can't you require a tenant to go to mediation can't require it but we could do a better job in offering it and I'm hoping into next year that's something else that we can look at are there any other communities in Vermont that have just cause eviction no not in Vermont that we know not that's one of the reasons why we're doing this as a charter change earliest question or point was this seems very kind of general and doesn't get into a great level of specificity and that's because in your charter which is your constitution you know it's like your ordinances are sort of your rules your procedures and your regulations but your charter is really your constitution and you don't want to put something in your constitution that you have to then constantly go back to the voters in the legislature and go through a long process to change you want to have it in your ordinances so your ordinances are your laws and your bylaws your laws and so the ordinance is the place we're going to get into that detail specificity to be able to understand what it is that we're envisioning in some of the guiding concepts and principles but we couldn't get into the greatest level of detail because that's not really what a charter change is is that whole other process and we need some more definitions so there's still yet a lot of work to be done on what this fully look like and that is always what happens with the charter change is there any risk if this passes and it goes to the legislature because they have to prove it that they may say no we don't think this should be a Burlington charter change there is always a risk more commonly they'll tweak it they'll change it and send it back to us here's your law we passed your law but we changed it so just to recap before we wrap up just cause eviction is on the ballot one of several ballot questions for Burlington voters and just give us the top three to five reasons why you think it's a good idea go ahead Sarah give it a shot well I will do that but I first want to make sure that we're clear that in this there are exemptions we talked about the exemption if you or your family want to move in there's also an exemption if it's owner occupied duplex or triplex if it's being withdrawn from the rental market and if it's in need of substantial renovation and as well as an exemption for sublets and in-unit rentals so we tried to cover understanding that those are more closely held circumstances and we wanted to be sensitive to small time landlords so we added those exemptions why is it a good thing and it's back to what I think originally what I said is it's a method to provide more stability for tenancies particularly in a community where we have a lot of turnover the influence of the university and the young residents who come and go and can pay and do pay very high rents influences the competition for our families and we hope this will be a modest way of supporting families longer in Burlington those are my main reasons for doing this just to provide long-term families a better opportunity to stay in their neighborhood my basic gist is really this is one of the places where we can actually deliver on the notion that housing is a human right there is a right to live in a place people have to live somewhere that will make life more challenging for certain property owners but that's actually a cost that we have to decide is that worth it and I think giving people stability in their home has enough value that the trade off is worth it I do want to is this a backdoor to other housing policies like rent control we had a mayor we had a mayor we had a mayor who used to say every time we propose something to protect the tenants you put up rent control believe me when we do it we put up a huge sign that says this is rent control this is actually something that you have to have rents in the equation because if you don't address rents and someone can just circumvent this with a massive rent increase you're basically creating a huge loophole that is just going to make it meaningless it does look a little bit like rent control but it's really not rent control because that's when you attempt to control the entire market when in fact most people will never interact with just cause or no cause like the vast majority of owners and tenants won't encounter this at all so rent control controls the whole market this is really a tool the rent piece of this tool preventing or prohibiting egregious rent increases that needs to be determined what that is but that's been done elsewhere it hasn't worked as a control so there is a there is a a limit on rent increase when there is a renegotiation there's not an absolute limit what we're saying is if the purpose of the rent increase is with the intent of victing you then the tenant has some recourse this is somewhat modeled after what is done in New Jersey New Jersey has many communities with rent control but those that don't there's a state law provision that says essentially the same thing you can't have an egregious rent control if the landlord comes in and says I want to double your rent and you know that's just going to get somebody out that's the kind of thing we want to have prohibited that you know it puts on us on owners to justify the rent increase but and in previous versions we had more specific language and that's yet to be put in ordinance but if the purpose is to meaningfully just ask you to get out that would be prohibited the renter was still could have a high rent increase and this does not prevent that whole other this ordinance will not prevent rent increases well I want to thank you both for your time and your service and the city of Burlington and for spending some time going over the just cause eviction ballot question that will be before the voters on the second of March can't believe it's yet another election coming around that's great news we love town meeting at town meeting TV so Brian Pine and Sarah Carpenter I know very much for joining us today thank you very much have a great day