 I'm pretty sure this is not really like that. So, welcome to the pan of pain of animation. That was super nice. So, I'm Jafty Helmusson. I come from Iceland originally. Now I'm working at the Blender Institute here in Amsterdam. And we'll just start by showing my show reel. Ah, you will not regret this. The adventures you will have. All the lives you ever wanted. All you've been missing. Here, this is the best product we have in store. Variable spin speed. Excellent tumble performance in one handy device. Squeaky clean. Wait, wait, wait. How does this thing work? I mean, how do I make it work? No, you don't. I just turned it on for you. It's a plus there, but okay. So, here we go. So, this is going to be just this incoherent rambling of things I find interesting right now. And I crammed probably two hours worth of material into the talk. Today I realized that, so I took a lot of stuff out of it. So, here it should be 45 minutes, so it should be good. Okay, so, the human face. So, whenever you do any kind of an animation, cartoons or whatever, let's say just hypothetically, let's say you want to draw the human face, you're going to have some level of abstraction. So, you want to draw it, but you want to put emphasis on one thing or another, and you want to put this many details in it or not. But notice that even if you like try to water it down all the way to just like a circle, a couple of dots in a line, your brain is still registering it as a face. So, your brain is actually doing a lot of the heavy lifting. So, the artist only needs to put some features in and then rely on making that experience for you and actually make a human face out of it. So, you can go in a lot of different directions. You can like, this is all trying to represent the human face, but you see the variety. I mean, these are a lot of variables. So, it's kind of, it's a little bit false to just think of it as a linear spectrum of realism and cartoony. It's a little bit more complicated than that. And then like, you can take it even further. Like all these different characters, cartoony characters, the way they're designed, it's always a particular, there's a lot of decisions and they're sprinkled in there. And every single one of them is made deliberately to kind of design this experience for the viewer. And the point of illustrating that is that this also applies with animation, with motion in and of itself. And that's something that I feel like some people don't maybe appreciate all the way. So, I wanted to do an example. So, this is from Glass Half, directed by Bjorn Leonard. This is going to be premiered this weekend from the Blender Institute. So, I took one of the characters, she's called Min, and I took two poses of her. And I kind of just made these two poses and they look nice. It's like two extreme poses. And it's supposed to be kind of cartoony and snappy. And if you see them play together, you can kind of see what I'm going for with this motion. Of course, you might be thinking, well, you know, you've done all the work, right? You did those two poses. Why don't you just let the computer do the rest of the thing? Well, I don't know. Yeah, no, no. No! No! That's my reaction. It looks like shit. Really, it does. The computer isn't animating. It's just kind of interpolating. And you have this thing that's not moving in arcs. It's doing weird things. You look at the breakdown that the computer is giving me. What is that? I have no idea what that is. There's no intention. There's just weird shit going on. Okay, so let's say, and this is kind of what I wanted to show you guys, is that let's say I come in during this process and I'm like, okay, I'm an animator. I'm a character animator and I want to work with this. And I want to take it a little bit further. I want to favor the beginning pose, for example. So here I took it and I favor it. It's 33%, I think, to the beginning pose. And then maybe take the hips down a bit. So the hips are moving now and then arc. Or, you know, arc-ish. It's only three frames. And then maybe close the mouth and the eyes. So you get a nice contrast with the end pose. Because I kind of want to have this snappy thing going on. And maybe if I close her up a bit and then go into that snappy thing, it's going to work a little bit better. Get the head into an arc also, so the head goes down. And maybe get the hands also working with it so the hands will have this kind of a swing to them as they're popping up. And because it's kind of cartoony, let's say that we're going to make them more of this rubber-hosey thing. So they flow a little bit more. Okay. So once you're kind of happy with that, that was the kind of breakdown I was kind of happy with. I started doing more breakdowns. So you can start seeing the kind of evolution of this little shot. I mean, it's not a difficult shot. It's just two poses, right? It's just getting from one pose to another. But this is kind of showing the difference between just a computer doing it and a human doing it. And then you maybe do some overshoot. So she comes into that extreme pose. She shoots over it a little bit and then comes back into it. And maybe in the beginning she has a little breath and then goes into it. So there's this slight anticipation and then goes into that arc. So this is the version I was happy with. So this is on twos. Twos is for those not familiar, maybe that comes from the old lingo of the old Disney movies that you have 24 frames per second. But if you animate every other frame, it's still functional because your brain is kind of making up for those missing frames. So it feels snappy. It totally works. Whenever you need a fast motion though, you animate on ones. So a lot of the old Disney movies have this mixture of twos and ones. But functionally this is working kind of like 12 frames per second basically right now. So that's a lot of information. That's a lot of information right there that I have made. I sculpted myself. So let's say we want to do the 12 frames per second and we want to trust the computer to just make the rest of it up in order to make 24 frames per second. Nah. I'm really not happy with that. It kind of breaks the arc in a lot of the things that are moving and there's a lot of weird posing going on. So here's the difference. Here's the one I actually made myself that is on ones. And notice that it wasn't just about doing a lot of these poses that were missing for the ones that... for the one that was 12 frames per second. I had to go back and tweak a lot of the original posing to get that snappiness again. I did realize though that as I was doing that this example is so subtle that only I will see the difference. So I am actually shooting myself slightly in the leg and I noticed that while showing this to some of my coworkers where I was just totally dissing on this shit, piece of shit. I would never put my name next to that stuff. And then I'm like, yeah, this is it. This is what it is. And people just glance at me. They have no idea what the hell I'm talking about. So I may actually just made an example that is too subtle. So if we maybe grab... Oh yeah, that's the... That's the slowdown version. So you see some of the horrible posing that's going on over there. Every other pose is horrible, by the way. The other one is mine. Okay, so I took a shot from glass half and this is animated on twos and ones, meaning that there's a lot of information in it that I put in there. So there's a lot of stuff going on and whenever she moves fast, I'm doing it on once, meaning that there's no... I'm making sure that every single frame is hitting a pose that I want. So you would think that if you just take this thing and you allow the computer to just do its own thing and fill in the blanks to make it all 24 frames per second, that it wouldn't be an issue. But it is an issue. It looks weird and it has these weird moments and wacky... I don't know what the hell is going on. So yeah, I'm just not happy with it. And the point of this is that I have never animated in high frame rates, meaning 48 frames per second. But if I were to extrapolate this logic, it would mean that saying that, hey, you know, you have animated this thing on 24 frames per second, how your frame rate is always better, right? You just, you know, it's a variable that everybody loves. Let's crank it up. Well, if you didn't design the thing to work within that frame rate, then you may have just shot yourself slightly in the leg. Because let's say, and this is in my own mind, this is how I can interpret it, let's say you have this abstraction of something real and it works and you worked with it, you've sculpted it, and you thought about a lot of things because you're tailoring this thing to the viewer. And it's appealing. And it seems to work, but then somebody comes and like, hey, people like details. Why don't you just add more details? Because more is better. Well, it becomes weird and creepy and it's not the thing that I wanted to show you. It becomes a different experience. So, to show kind of the variety of animation, to show that, hey, when you have a simple shot like that, it's only two poses, it's only a few frames. I mean, there's nothing crazy going on. But even within that, and even within having most of those variables exactly the same, let's say, and I did this, I came in the next day and I decided, hey, wouldn't it be interesting if I just did everything I did completely from scratch again, but this time I start off with a different breakdown. I make a pose that's different. A one that favors the second one, a one that has the hands slightly different, has a slightly different feel to it. So, now you have to remember, this is me having almost all the variables exactly the same. So, it's the same character, same style of animation, same timing, same two poses in the beginning and end. So, you know, you would think, okay, it's just going to look exactly the same. Well, not necessarily. So, here's what I did. So, here's the kind of the other breakdown I did for version two. And then I did more breakdowns. And you can see, it feels a little bit different. It doesn't have exactly the same intensity. And then here it is on twos. And then, of course, we want to give the computer a fair shot, but it's horrible. It's disgusting. So, let's just move on. Okay, so this is the one I did on once. And it feels different. Like there's a slightly different intensity to the character. There's poppiness, but there's less. And there's, yeah, a lot of things are moving in different arcs, in different timing, in different spacing. So, version one and version two. This is practically on 12 frames per second. And 24 frames per second. And you can see the difference. And this is with almost all the variables there are exactly the same. But just because I started off slightly differently with the breakdown pose. So you can imagine, if I handed this to another animator that had almost all the same variables, it's going to come up with something different. Or if I just woke up weird that one day, it would end up differently. So it's just to illustrate how much variety there is in animation. So, cheating stuff. This here is all about cell phones going off awkward. And cheating stuff towards the camera. So, you have this moment between Victor, the weird ginger guy, and Frank the sheep. And it's kind of this nice little moment where he goes down into the Jesus. Goes down on his knee and tries to kind of, we try to kind of level off the eye line so he comes a little bit closer. This is what it looks like, by the way, in the final render. This is what it looks like in Blender, of course. And this is what it looks like when I'm animating it. You want to have it with a good frame rate and stuff so you don't want to be slowed down by some fur and stuff. Every now and then you fact check, yeah, stuff is going on the fur, it's not weird. But mostly you're animating it like this. But let's say you change the camera. Let's say you change the viewpoint. Let's say you look at it from above. Well, they're not facing each other. I just lied to you. I just shattered your illusion. And they're not even looking at each other. So you have this thing going on. I'm not going to regret this. The adventure. This is from a different angle. And he's not even looking at him. He's going to the side. Things are popping. This was only meant for the camera in any other angle. It's going to look weird. Excellent tumble performance in one. And you can see it from the other angle. Ah, you will not regret this. Also, extremely weird. And it looks like bad animation from any other angle than the camera. All you've been missing. This is the best product we have in store. We're not even looking at what they should be looking at. But we go back to the camera. That's what we see. So this is kind of a common thing. Because you're constantly cheating things. You're crafting things for the viewer. And the viewer is the camera, of course. And we see this. There's like a lot of different examples. We see this with other characters where you have the eyes in an appealing way and they look good and they're nice. But then there's a problem because they got to make toys. They got to make statues. Statues work from one angle. But then you got to look at it from another angle. And it looks weird. It's wonky. And it's a known phenomenon that you got to, like the toy makers, they got to make the toys that were for a cartoony character only meant for one angle. And they're like, I don't know what to do. But yeah, so cheating more, cheating more. Tall guy, slender guy. Extremely long legs. Extremely long legs. So I ended up, by the way, first of all, I wanted him to come even further down. And I was trying to cheat it and cheat it and cheat it. I went down to like 80%. I scaled down his legs, 80%. And the animators, the other animators were like, there's something wrong with the guy. Oh, shit. And I took it back up to like 92%. This is what it looks like with 100%. It's insane. So you can see the stark difference of me cheating it also. So like the knee is kind of angled weirdly also. But it's for the camera. So as long as the camera is fine, it's fine. It's all good. Silhouette, super important. If you have a character that is holding an object maybe. And if there's no reason why that person should be holding an object like really close to them, why not hold slightly away? Just to break up the silhouette a bit and make it slightly more obvious what the hell is going on. Yeah, time lapse of actually making that thing. You can find that on the cloud, cloud.blender.org. So I had to make a decision because the rig wasn't necessarily meant for a kneeling position. I mean, he's only kind of kneeling in this one shot where we actually see the knee penetrating and going into the grass and all that stuff. So I had to make a decision early on to just make it, allow it to be IK and IK leg. Meaning that every time he was moving or doing anything, the knee would just go crazy. So I made this pink cylinder scaffolding in a separate layer and every now and then I would just turn it on and make sure that the knee is kind of there. And it worked out. It's fine. Nobody's noticed it. And at the end I had to do like a pass just frame by frame checking from the camera's angle. Is the thing just going crazy or not? Is it fine? Okay, it's good. All right, the rope. Now I had this idea that because working with it's one of the worst things ever. You take a thing that's like this and if any of you have animated before, like taking it and being like, yeah, this is the hardest thing you can do. So I was thinking, well, this was a nightmare for me, but how would I explain this to other people because I don't know everybody's background and stuff. So I was thinking, well, maybe I do like, this is slight oversimplification because the rope itself has more bones than this. But let's say you had the master bone and then point 1.2 and point 3. And these are the actual bones I used. There were other bones, of course, but, you know, let's ignore that. And then you got the right arm and left arm. So I wanted to kind of show that moment when he's grabbing the rope and taking it and folding it and whatnot. And just freeze frame whenever there was a switch of parenting or whatnot. And then I showed it to somebody. I don't understand what the hell I looked at. So I made some auditory cues to kind of help it out. Okay, so everybody's on board, right? So you got the meow, you got the wuff. I don't even remember which is which, but there's like a cowbell and like a bike bell or something. So you're going to see this again just as a clear illustration of what the hell is going on. And then you're going to see the thing actually play. And then you'll pause every time there's a switch going on. Adventures. You will have all the lives. All you've been missing. This took a lot of time. I don't mean animating the shot. I mean actually making that illustration. I had to go back into the original file and find all the bones and whatnot. Yeah, so, nice. Keep going, keep going. Okay, this is what you've all been waiting for. So this is almost like a refresher on body mechanics. And I like torturing my coworkers at the institute. So I just videotaped every single one of them individually and then gave them certain kind of commands. I asked them politely, yes. So you've got some weight shift going on on the left and the right leg. But notice that how much it varies. If you just look at the hips, that's a huge distance. And humans are doing this constantly. Whenever you want to, if you have, let's say you have your weight evenly distributed right now and I want to move anywhere, I'm going to have to shift my weight off the leg I want to use in order to move it. If I don't do that, I'll just fall. So you see the center of mass and then you've got the fulcrum point. Now a fulcrum point is basically right now, my right leg, your left, is a fulcrum point. And if you drew a line straight up from that point, if you look at my body and you imagine it's just a shape of mass, which it is of course, it should be totally even. On each side of that line should be exactly the same amount. People forget that sometimes when they're starting off in animation and things seem floaty and seem like they don't really work. Okay, so what if they're holding some random object that's kind of heavy and they're holding it in a nice posture and then they move it to one side? You're going to see that the center of mass, which is kind of just in the middle, really nice, it really shifts. So whenever you're holding any kind of heavy object or whatever, you're going to see that shift in your body because now that is part of your body when you measure it through the fulcrum point. Also, when you're doing any kind of video reference for animating, up to a degree, use the same weight for reference. So like if you have a guy that's supposed to be carrying a heavy bag and lifting it up, if you have a bag that's totally empty and you try to use that as reference and then animate to that, it's not going to look heavy. So you actually have to have the source material, use the reference file, ask a heavy thing. Now up to a degree, you don't want to hurt yourself. Easy command. Now I love how everybody does it slightly differently. It's one tiny command, but everybody does it differently. That's also one of the things why I highly recommend doing video reference, but we'll get to that later. So you got the jump, so you got this little blue line going on on the hips and you got them pressing down for the anticipation and they're going to take all that mass and they're going to spring it up into the extreme and then most of them are going to land somewhere in between that thing and then most of them are going to recover. But I actually love this because it shows Pablo being slightly off-balance when he lands and that's a good thing because when you do video reference you see some of those things happen where like something's kind of wonky or somebody forgot something or somebody's slightly off-balance. You take those things and you use them sparingly, of course, like you pick and choose because if you do everything completely clinically, you're going to have an animated character that's perfectly in rest pose, perfectly down, perfectly up and perfectly lands and everybody in that cartoon world is going to be perfect. If you don't have that grittiness of a human trying to jump and then having to take one extra step or whatever it is, it kind of brings a lot of life into it. Oh yeah, that's just for fun. So you can play any music. You can play any music to this and it's hilarious. So what happens if you ask a person to jump without using the anticipation without going down for the jump? They kind of look at you funny and they're not sure what to do. You can do it. You can kind of cheat. Some of them are kind of trying to cheat a little bit by using only their feet or like swinging their arms up to try to use that force to help them. But if you forget the anticipation, it looks unnatural. It looks weird. This is brilliant. I love this. Because everybody's trying to do a similar thing and they kind of go for it in different ways. So if you stand completely evenly and then you're trying to run as fast as you can in one direction, you can't use either one of your legs right now because they're stuck to the ground and they have weight on them. So you have to somehow loosen up one of the legs and then start going. But you want to go off balance as fast as possible with the action that you're running because you're trying to do it as fast as possible. So you have different ways of doing it. So some of them are actually taking the body mass to the side and then going. And others do this little jump that does the same thing and then go. And of course, poor Andy is the only one without shoes so he has to deal with having no friction. And you know, it's a variable. You have the body mass and then you see they're all kind of trying to do the same thing but they're all doing it slightly differently. That's interesting. So this is a good example of doing reference video and then it's a class of different reference videos and you kind of pick and choose which one you want to use and sometimes it's multiple ones. But there's one thing that the voice actor did that I really like. He takes a cigarette, puts it in his mouth and then he's going to go for the matches but he forgets it for a brief moment. So he takes his hand back up as if he's already lit the cigarette. Then he remembers, oh no, I got to get the matches. So there's this brief moment where he's casually just, oh no, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I used it because it seemed to fit the character and it felt human. It's something a human would do right there. He totally forgot in which order he should have done things. So here it is from different angles and it looks like shit. Really, it does. It was never meant for these angles. It's poppy, it's weird. Pretty sure during this I was scaling the arms frantically. Like, you know, it's down to like 90% or something but a lot of times he's so big and slender like he couldn't brush his own jacket. And the legs, like as soon as the camera cuts off the legs I'm not worried about the legs so you can see it. Alright, so I want to kind of go into a conclusion to inspire you guys with a lot of inspiring animation. This just happens to be a lot of animation that happens to be on the tip of my mind at the moment. I really like it. I think I'm really enthusiastic about it. I'm a huge defender of the new Mickey shorts, by the way. They started making them in 2013 and they do a lot of snappy animation. It's really cool. Okay. So, first off, Aldi Baguri. This is my favorite shot in this movie from Disney Animation Studios Tangled. Five years ago, it's brilliant. Look at that thing, look at it. It has so much character, it has so much snappiness but it also follows so many principles of animation. It has overlap, it has anticipation, it has this arc. If you look at frame three and four, you can see that in frame three the neck has this curvature to it and then it gets reversed on frame four. So it has that snappiness to it. And overlap, like you see all the different stuff on him. As soon as he gets into the pose, everything's still jiggling a little bit. It's brilliant. My reaction when somebody asks me to go to the gym. I love this. So, look at Minnie. Look at how distorted she gets. And they totally get away with it. Look at the multiple feet, the smearing going on. It's so amazing. And they kind of make her jump up and she's kind of in the air for a moment and then she goes in. And this also is just, this is a clear case of lateral thinking where you want to convey some emotion or some beat or some rhythm and you have some constrictions. One of them is, oh no, no, no, he's obese. You can't have the legs or you can't have the hands. So, okay, how do I convey that emotion? Well, the ears. Let's just use them as hands and just kind of use that to emphasize that gesture. It works. It's brilliant. I love it. This I added, I like the animation. I really like it. It's actually a really good animation. But I just noticed something accidentally. Two years ago, I installed the Disney app. They were trying to teach animation to kids or something or inspire them. It's a good app, really cool. I highly recommend it. And they would feature all these various shots from some of their movies. And I clicked one of them, which was this. And you could scrub through. I didn't realize. But yeah, you could frame by frame scrub through. And I scrubbed through it. It looks good. It looks brilliant. But I saw weird stuff when I scrubbed through. And I noticed that I think the paper was made afterwards. That was made by another department or something. Which is, to be fair, they also have deadlines and budget and all that stuff. But that's also why I feel a little bit inspired by seeing this. If you look at the paper, it doesn't like, oh, I have laser. Laser, okay. So if you look at the paper here, he's not holding it. If you look at it here, the hand is penetrating. Hand is penetrating the thing and he's not even holding it. Weird stuff, weird stuff, weird stuff. But nobody noticed this. So it's kind of inspiring to see some of the pros that actually do it quite well. And they're brilliant. I think the animation is really good. Also have constrictions and they try to just make it good enough sometimes that it functions. So it doesn't always need to be completely perfect frame by frame. Yeah, I love it. I love it. It takes the whole Mickey thing and just ramps it up. I love it. So look at Pluto. Look at Pluto going from looking backwards on frame one. Frame two, he has this slight little turn with a bit of a smear going on. And then boom, third frame, he is running. Like he's not preparing to run or anything. He is running. Another thing, like let's say for example you took this and jack it up to 60 frames per second. Ah man, like you're not going to get that snappiness. This is brilliant. And on the flip side, look at that smearing effect on frame two. Look at how fast he turns. 13, 14, 15, 13, he's all the way over there. Slight smudge, bam. That's such a great inspiring snappy animation. Now, this is the last one. This, it stood out to me. The whole year of all the different animations I saw, the whole year, this little sequence stood out to me. And I just love it so much. It's, they, and I do, I really want to meet the animator that did that. They must have had some reference footage or something because it's so, it's so endearing. It works completely on a body mechanics level, but also on the acting. It's, it's, it's awesome. So, final thoughts. No. Not yet. Okay, I actually have to kind of read this because I wrote this 10 minutes ago. Animation is an abstraction. Okay, so the whole idea is that it is a caricature of actual movement. And I think people sometimes forget that and they just focus so much on designing the character and making him look good. And then when it comes to the animation, it's like, yeah, you know, 12 frames per second, 40 frames per second, 1,000. It doesn't really matter, right? Like Pluto is Pluto. He looks always the same. Well, it's not, it's not fair. It's not fair because you sculpt that thing. You, there's decisions. There's a lot of decisions. Computers, I kind of internally sometimes have a little monologue with the computer. So I'm working with it and, and I want to make a breakdown there. And it does something stupid. I'm like, you idiot. You don't do that. Like, anticipation is wrong. And that happens a lot. Like you have a computer and it's a brilliant tool and it does a lot of great things. But it can't animate. That it's the difference between motion and animation. So all those new trendy things. So you got VR, you got stairs, copying and high frame and all that stuff. So the point I'm trying to make is you can make awesome stuff for that. And I'm actually really excited about that. All the new technology. But you need to make it, you need to make sure that the thing you're making is made for it to begin with. Because otherwise you're just taking something that's meant for a medium and then cramming it into another medium. And you're just not going to get the same experience. Yeah, cheat. Like if you can get away with it, sometimes you need to cheat. A lot of the times you're like, if you're the camera, I'm trying to fake this eyeball not going away from you. And you, by the way, you see this a lot in cinema. Like this is something from theater way back when. Even like I kind of, I find it kind of funny how they were trying to do the same thing with soap operas. How they're this constriction of like, oh, we need to see people's faces and reacting to everything. Well, let's just make people talk to each other and then walk off to the wall and keep talking. And then you have the camera and they can see both our faces. So I keep talking to you while I'm actually facing the wrong way. It looks weird. Nobody actually does this in real life, but I guess they get away with it. Yeah. I've seen people burn out. I've burned out like badly where you just like, this week I'm going to animate. I'm going to do overtime every single night. It's really important. Next weekend, well, I kind of need to work. And you do this enough times that you kind of just burn yourself out and you never want to animate again, really. Like it takes a lot of mental gymnastics to do this thing. And it's so easy to kind of lose that momentum and get a bit burned out. Wow. Just realized I ended on a sad note. Anyway, animation is really fun. And that was the pain of animation. Thank you. Questions or two hours of questions? Yes, okay. Or we can have a... I have my beer. What's up? Well, does anybody have a question? I don't know. Not this guy. Oh, so how long did it take me to do the laundromat animation? It's a little bit hard to say because it was one of the first animations I worked on for the project. And the camera was actually kind of different. It was positioned in a different way. And then by the time I had actually started working on it and I had a lot of stuff blocked out, we kind of paused the whole thing. And then we started working on totally different sections of the short film. So it happened to be the first thing I worked on on the film and then the last thing I worked on. So it became this almost an enigma to try to figure out how long it took because it's so segmented. Sorry, I can't answer that question properly. Okay, then a tiny question. Have you tried out animating for VR already? No, I haven't. You should. I should. I know. I've been busy. Yeah, but because I think a lot of this faking that you showed with the proportions will really improve the experience when you see it in VR. And most animations that I see in VR didn't try that. And I was just curious because there were some VR screenshots and test you did with Blenden just if there is some footage. Yeah, and in that, by the way, you're stationary. You're completely stationary. That's the thing. Even then, you're stationary. You're looking at them having a moment and you see some weird stuff like his leg is kind of broken because I didn't know. I didn't know we were going to use this for a VR thing. So like it looks perfect from the camera's angle, but like his leg is kind of broken. I was trying to, yeah. So let's say it's from a stationary standpoint. Okay, that could work. It could also not work. Like there's some things that you can see that look a bit weird. So that means now the animator has to get used to that workflow and try them out every now and then to see if those posts actually work within that experience. So like it adds to the thing. You can't just animate it from a camera and then just go, eh, we'll VR the thing, you know what I mean? So that's kind of the point. Also like let's say you can walk around the guy. Yeah, yeah. And then you're going to see all that creepy stuff I was showing you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, more, more. So the project we do, he will be working on too, is the coming industry. It's a Christmas episode with the llama. We're working on making one little bit of it in VR. Whether that's before Christmas available or after we don't know yet. But we want to explore this. Look at the face of the director. Look at the face of the animator. When you go from the twos to the ones, those in-between frames that you add to the animation, do you start from scratch? Like you copy the two another time and then edit it? Or do you start off with the interpolated one and improve it? No, I start off myself. So I start off myself because that's also why I recommend that people, well, it depends on the shot. But on average, when you're working on a shot, that you work in blocked mode. So meaning like the constant interpolation. So it feels like this weird stuff. Because then there's, the computer isn't giving you something that isn't there. If you keep working in splined, everything becomes this swimmy thing and your brain starts being a little bit desensitized to the information you're getting. And I've seen some stuff that had great promise. But like because they did it splined too early, it kind of went too swimmy. And there's just, it's hard to reclaim that snappiness. Yes, somebody has to be like, hello. Have you ever used the NLA? The what, sorry? NLA, non-linear. The NLA? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Is it any use? No, I tried. There were I think a couple of occasions where I had a project that, like it felt like, oh, this is kind of the moment when I should maybe use it. And it just ended up being more of a hassle than to just do it yourself. Like just in the dope sheet and the regular thing. So no, I honestly, I don't have a good experience with it, but I'm not saying I'm an expert in it. So like it probably has its own place, but I'm, you know, I'm novice. Yes. Let's have a break. Thank you for your awesome talk.