 Good evening and thank you for joining us on Y254 Updates. My name is Patricia Murioki. Talk to us on all our social media platforms that is at Y254 TV. You can also reach me at Patricia Murioki. Tonight we're going to be talking about a very interesting and rather very sensitive topic. We've all probably had of the recent rise of teenage pregnancies in the country that is probably since COVID-19. And to help us talk about this topic tonight is we have two very amazing ladies who I really trust and based on the interactions that I've had with them that they are well-equipped to help us tackle literally every teen pregnancy. And we have Saida Hali who is a feminist activist and a policy analyst. We have Eman Yabisi who is an advocate gender-based violence and a human rights activist. So these people are going to help us tonight to really understand who do we blame? Are we even supposed to be talking about who is responsible? Is it the right way when we talk about 4,000? Probably, for example, in Machaacos County where we talk about more than 4,000 girls impregnated during this period. Are we really supposed to be just talking about that where are the people responsible for these pregnancies? So we're going to have these people help us talk about that tonight. Remember, you can be part of this discussion by sharing your opinions. What do we think should be done? Probably what do we do as a country to make sure that we get to curb this? But before we get to the discussion, we'd like to have a look at probably the current numbers as far as COVID-19 is concerned in the country. And today, based on the press briefing that was given by the CA Health Ministry of Health, Dr. Masi Mongangi, 254 people have tested positive for COVID-19. 41 patients were discharged today and two people, suddenly two people succumbed to the virus which now brings the total numbers in the country has 5,206. That is a total number of confirmed cases in the country. We have 1,823 has a total number of recoveries in the country and we also have 130 has a total number of deaths. Thank you very much for finding the time to join us tonight. I believe you've all seen all these information has been circulating on social media. We've had a different media houses cover these stories. The first thing I'd like to ask Emma, what do you think about these numbers? To you, is this a reality or is there someone who sat down and cooked? Let us first start by ascertaining if these numbers are really true, Emma. I thank you Patricia for the opportunity. You're welcome. Our first, I think we shouldn't be asking whether it is real or not real. The first thing we should ask, what is not going on with our teens? If it is true, what are we supposed to do that we can prevent the same? We shouldn't be asking whether these numbers are there or not because teen pregnancy is an issue in our country. And we need to solve it, yes. Saida, you're a feminist activist. What came into your mind? What is the first thing that you thought about when you saw these numbers? So just building up on what Emma said about the numbers, I think it's important for us to recognize that actually, teen pregnancies, this is a pandemic. It's been going on. What COVID-19 has done is really to blow the lead off, the problem. Based on pre-existing problems that have not been resolved, pre-existing inequalities that have perhaps pushed girls into certain situations. And we like to bury our heads in the sand when it comes to teenage pregnancies and when it comes to situations of adolescent girls and boys. So some of the things that have come to my mind are something you started talking about. Where are the 4,000-plus men or boys responsible for these pregnancies? That's number one. Number two, there's been no empathy at all shown on the girls. When things have gotten so bad, everyone has politicized issues, including the data. There's a lot of... This country has become a bit of a moral circus when it comes to just blaming, shifting goalposts and things like that. But very little has been spoken about where are these girls? What's going to happen to them? What kinds of strategies need to be put in place now that they are in that situation to address how they move forward in a humane way and to also address some layers of what might be the problem that I'm hoping we can get to speak about that. Okay. Said I have mentioned you've talked something about blaming. With the numbers that we've seen, are we to even do justice by probably trying to see who do we blame? Because I was having a conversation with someone and they made a comment where they said mothers should talk to their daughters. And I asked myself, at what point are we going to say mothers and fathers should also talk to their sons? So what is your opinion as far as who is to blame on this matter is concerned? That particular example actually brings out the discourse around gender inequalities and parenting responsibilities and how they're shifting of goalposts when it comes to who is responsible when a child, whether boy or girl has been or has found themselves in a situation that is tricky. And a lot of times and some of the debate we've seen going on has been around mothers should be talking to girls. But actually it should be parents, both mothers and fathers have a responsibility to talk to both girls and boys. Because then when we are saying they should talk to girls, we're also forgetting about a text to tango. So there is a boy or there is a man that has been involved in this situation. And the reason I'm making the distinction between boys and men is in the latter, these are adult men and we do know there are situations of sexual exploitation that have also contributed to these numbers. There are cases of sex that was non-consensual or where defilement of rape may have happened. And so the problem of doing a blanket blaming is that it does not begin to get to the point because if a girl says that she didn't consent and points to a situation where she was raped, it is important to investigate and to have those people responsible arrested and brought to book. And that's part of the debate that is getting lost in this all noise around what I'm calling the moral hula-baloo. Okay, before this conversation ends, I would also like us to touch on consent and really understand through these girls even really understand what consent means. Are they even aware that I'm supposed to give consent before probably someone does one, two, three to me? But before I get to that, I'd like to bring Emma on these. We know that schools have been closed since March 17th due to COVID-19. All these cases, most of them, the rice has happened when we have our students at home and we have our girls and we have our boys at home. Do we say that our teachers are more responsible than our parents? I think no. Our teachers are not more responsible than our parents. Our parents may have loved to talk to the kids about sex, but it doesn't mean they're irresponsible in this subject. The only thing we need to ask ourselves it is how are these parents going to talk to these children because it has been a stigma from time immemorial. Parents are not willing to talk to their children about sex. So the issue is how are you going to let these parents to talk to their children? So for example, we had a meeting on March. Whereby we talked to children at the same time parents. You put them together, tell them that parents, you need to speak to your children about sex. And children, you need to open up to your parents about sex. At the same time, the current crisis happened when children were behind their doors. So there are many other issues that come up. We have social, we have economic, we have legal. So for example, economic, you find that parents are suffering. They don't have enough food for their children. And you find that these parents will force their children, let's say the girls to go out there and fend for themselves. In this case, they'll go under half commercial sex or just half sex for someone to provide for them. So this is a big issue that we need to speak about. If our government could be able to provide for the families right now, whereby the parents are forced to send their daughters out there to go and fend for themselves, it is an issue that we need to cover. Okay. Before we get to the consent question, teenage pregnancies had been fueled by rape, defilement, poverty, early marriages, peer influence, drug abuse, and lack of youth-friendly health services. So I'd like to bring you on these. All these causes that are triggers of teenage pregnancies, what can we do about them to make sure that we don't find a young girl, just because there's one thing that they could not afford, all these people who feel like they're up here and they have overpowered these girls do not take advantage of them? What do we do about all these before now we now come to really understand the consent? Yeah. You know, on this matter, I've been saying to a few friends that we really need to go back to basics as a society. Okay. And part of the basics, and just to take away the whole issue around rape, for example, it's very clear where rape has happened, you know, the criminal justice system needs, and here, I mean, from the police, they have a role in this in terms of making arrests, there is investigations that need to happen, you know, up to the point of prosecution and things like that, like, this is not even a debate we should be negotiating about. Where rape has happened or where sexual exploitation has happened, really the law needs to kick in. And we need to be able to support and we to mean everyone to be able to support what has been put in place. Having said that, again, on the issue of reproductive health matters, and I want to say here, sexual health and rights matters as well. Because sometimes when we talk about reproductive health for adolescents, girls and boys, they may not sometimes identify so much with some of the things being said because they think, oh, you know, if it is just about reproduction, that's not why I want to listen to this discussion. But when we think about it from a rights perspective, then we begin to talk about some of the things that you're saying relate to consent and having parents and everyone who is, say, a guardian understand what those basics are around teaching children. But in terms of what we have as a country, we have lots of policies that are supportive of this issue and the situation of adolescent boys and girls. For instance, we have the adolescent sexual and reproductive health policy in this country. It was passed in 2015. It needs a bit of a review, so that then we can make sure the gaps that are not addressed are put in place. The problem is implementation. The other one, and it's very recent, is the Reproductive Health Care Act 2019, very recent, right? Part of the current debate is that it really needs to be looked at, to be reviewed, and that discussion is already happening, so that then some of the gaps, especially around comprehensive sexuality education, are addressed and so that then what we propose happens is that adolescent boys and girls have the information and they have access to it. So when you look at those policies, then you know that from a Ministry of Health point of view, we're really on the right path because then the policies have been put in place. The problem with this country is implementation. The political will, the putting resources down that are really underlined for making sure that that is happening. And so then it would be important to begin to understand the roles that we have as parents. I am a parent of a daughter and that I do not want to get to a point where I say, the teachers or my child's teacher has the prime and complete responsibility to be doing this. I have a role as a parent and that's why I'm talking about going back to basics. Going back to basics means, Patricia, that some of these parents who are struggling, they don't know what to say to the children. So there needs to be some sort of education for parents as well. And I just want to acknowledge that we have a lot of non-governmental organizations that are doing this work, but the demand is so high. So this is where now government and political will comes in and making sure that there are resources to ensure that there are facilities where adolescents and youth can go. It's friendly for them to be given information because having access to information can serve lives. It's not about I'm getting the information so that I can go and explore it or explore with my body. But this is part of the moral debates that I was referring to. When we say we shouldn't give information to children or to adolescents because people are saying they're much too young and they're going to start engaging in sexual activity. Research has shown that where comprehensive sexuality education exists, there is delayed sexual activity. Why? Because they have an understanding of what it takes, what choices to make and things like that. Okay, we're going to be taking a very short break, but before we go for that break, Emma, I would like to bring you on the consent. Do you think, as an advocate, do you think a 12-year-old, a 13-year-old, a 14-year-old girl really understands what consent means? And as you address that, also look at, please tell us how does the law protect these teenagers as far as consent is involved? Thank you, Patricia, for that question. That question has been in our discussion for long. Even our government wanted to reduce the consent to age to 16, which doesn't even make sense. Yes, a 12-year-old doesn't understand what consent is. If you give me something that I need, let's say you take me out and you tell me I went to have sex, I'll just allow it because I don't understand. The only thing I know you have gifted me and what you want from me, it is sex. So for a 12-year-old to understand what is consent, it is hard. It's for a parent to sit down and tell them, if someone wants to buy something for you, tell them no, if they want sexual gratification after that. And at the Sexual Offense Act, it is clear that the age of consent is 18, and it should mean that. The only thing now we come into, it is about when teenagers get to have sex, that is between peers, what happens after that? Because if a 17-year-old gets to have sex with a 16-year-old, what are we going to do about that? Because all of them are minors. You know, we need to crucify a boy and let the girl walk free because even the girl has had sex with a minor. So there it's another question we are supposed to discuss about. Then also, if a 19-year-old gets to have sex with a 16-year-old or a minor, what about statutory rape? Should we introduce this? Because, yes, a 16, a 17-year-old might have something to do about consent. So when we talk about that, it's now when we will think about statutory rape, where you find that the Western world has such an allow, but we don't have it. So you see most men in our society think that the Sexual Offense Act crucifies them, makes them to go to jail for having sex, consensual sex with a lady. And this is not their case. So we need to revise our laws and make sure that it accommodates every detail that's happening in our society. Okay. We're going to be taking a very short break, but when we come back, we'll try to look at what age parents should teach us, probably talk about sex education. We're going to be taking a very short break. Don't go far away. We'll be right back for updates. And if you're just joining us, tonight we're talking about the rise of teenage pregnancy. This is based on the recent rise of the cases, since we had COVID-19, since we have our kids at home, or rather we have students at home. And we're trying to just see what can we do. We're trying to see what really needs to be done to make sure that these things really do not happen again. We're trying to talk about consent, try and evaluate, do really, probably 12-year-olds, 13-year-olds, or teenagers, rather, really understand what consent means. And before we get to the sex education, probably at what age, probably we should have discussions as far as sex is concerned with teenagers or even at what age should we do that. That is, Ezekiel Motua, the CEO of the Film Classification Board, said that the 4,000 pregnancies in Machakos County should be blamed on the Machakos musicians because they tend to have... His argument was they have very... Their names, probably their stage names are very vulgar, the type of content. And we also have social media. We have social media, we have the internet. Probably sometimes even parents don't know what the kids are doing on those phones because these days we have kids as young as seven years, being given a smartphone. So what are your thoughts on that side? I think it's problematic to blame... To draw blame on one particular issue. There's a number of contributing factors. And one of them could be that super exposure through, you know, internet, using fonts and tablets and all manner of things that parents are able to afford for their children. But part of why I'm saying we shouldn't be too quick to apportion blame or to look at just a single factor is because some of the children that are affected are actually from very poor families, right? So there are socioeconomic factors that Emma was talking about coming to play. So for them, there is no even access to some of these things. For me, it just goes back to the issue of access to information. And at what point we begin to give information and in what measure to our children. And this is why some of us talk about age-appropriate, comprehensive sexuality education and when need arises. The reason I introduce the issue of need is because you'd ask the question about a 12-year-old, whether a 12-year-old can consent, right? But a 12-year-old will have already started developing. And so as a parent, you should be able to take advantage of those moments, the opportunities that present themselves to offer information to children. So there are children who may ask certain questions and they are five years old. For me, as a parent, I shouldn't just, you know, hash it and say, oh, you know, she is five or is five. So I'm not going to talk about it now. But take advantage of that opportunity being presented and provide information that is to the measure of the understanding of that five-year-old. So that then when that child is 12 years old, what you've been doing is a build-up from where you started. But not to give misinformation at five years and then at seven, you start changing and say, you know, it's actually not that. It is this. So it's important to give information, to take advantage of different opportunities that present themselves, to even start talking about consent, even without talking about sex. And consent here means having children understand the boundaries around their body. And naming body parts for what they are. And understanding that they can say no and it should be respected. And you, as a parent, should be able to respect when your child says no to you and perhaps then have dialogue around what it is that both sides or what the argument is if there is a difference of opinion. And, Mark, this doesn't have to be about sex, but this is what will build onto the conversation around what Emma was saying, that at 12, by that age, then that girl or that boy would be able to say, but I don't think this is something I want to get involved in. Why? Because from the age of three or five, when they ask the question around, should someone really touch me? Then the response that was given was the truth in terms of understanding the boundaries of what their body is. OK. Because of time, I would like us to talk about now, let's talk about probably the teenagers who have access to certain information online. The other day, the Cabinet Secretary, Ministry of Education, said that pornography sites should be banned because this is also something that triggers all these immoral behaviors. Emma, how can parents, what roles now do parents have to probably try and regulate? We know, yes, that children have access to the information, but how can the parent control what, really, the child gets to probably assess online? Or how do they regulate to make sure that we don't just say, we just don't throw them in a pool where there is everything, but we don't really tell them, this is what you will, this is what you do, this is what you don't, Emma. Thank you. Looking at that question, you find that there are many issues that raise from there. You find that one, if you will say that we will start limiting what the children are viewing at our houses, it means these children will find opportunities, they will find the panya route to go and access this information. As we have said, like Sada said, we need to start educating our children from an early age about sex and about the information they gain out there. Let me cut you, when you talk about early age, what age really should we introduce sex education? What age would you say is appropriate? Let's say a kid, a five-year-old comes and asks you, Mama, what do you have here? Why don't I have it? Mama, you are wearing skirts, but daddy is wearing trousers. You don't have to tell them, because trousers are supposed to be trousers. That's when you need to come up and tell them, it is because your father is a man. And men do what? Wear trousers because of ABCD. And me, as a lady, I have books. If it's a God, say to him, one day you will also have them, them like me. Don't bash away the kid and tell them. We'll talk about that later. Ten years, for eight years, ten years, that's when we are going to talk about it. No, start from that point. That's when you start giving them information. If you're going to hide this information from them, they're going to get it from somewhere else. Let's say you give your child a phone, a smartphone. You may regulate it, but they'll find a way on how to remove all your regulations. Or maybe have access elsewhere. And find access somewhere else. So you find that you need to tell your children what they're supposed to get. If they see pornography, tell them why they are not supposed to watch pornography. Why they should not watch certain songs. Why they should, so that they are able to grow up knowing what is right and what is wrong. But if you just bash children and tell them, you wait for this age, the children will find ways to do what they want. Also talk about when they reach a certain age, tell them, if it's a daughter, tell them, boys will always see you attractive. But you are the ones who are supposed to refrain or say no when they come close to you. Not close, but when they start talking about sex to you, having sex, talk to them in such a manner they are able to understand. Okay, so time is really not on our side. I think we'll create more time and really have this discussion because it's something I believe we can literally get to midnight while talking about. But thank you very much, ladies, for really finding the time to share your thoughts about this topic. And all I would say is that as parents, as siblings, as the society, we all have a role to play. If you notice something that is not right, that is happening, please make sure that you are able to speak about it. If you are at a position to probably talk to young men and talk to young ladies about probably sex education, about certain things or information that you believe is very important, please do so. And as we continue staying at home, let us continue making sure that we are also, as parents or as guardians, knowing what is my daughter doing, what is my son doing. Thank you very much for joining us. My name is Patricia Murioki. Do have yourselves a very good night.