 Welcome and thanks so much to all of you that have chosen to join us this Monday for another episode of the nonprofit show. We have Katie Warnick with us today, Katie is with staffing boutique and she is going to share with us all about the nonprofit nonprofit, you think I'd know that word, the nonprofit labor market status so we're really excited to have this conversation with you Katie. Julia Patrick joins me as she does every day. Julie is the CEO of the American nonprofit Academy. I'm Jared Ransom, also known as your nonprofit nerd CEO of the Raven Group. And again, we wouldn't be having these conversations and these episodes without our presenting sponsors. So thank you, thank you, thank you from all of us for your continued support and your continued investment. In these conversations going on about 18 months now 400 episodes strong. So again we are so grateful to have your, your investment in these conversations just like the one we are about to dive deep in with Katie Warnick CEO of staffing boutique. Welcome Katie and happy Monday. Oh man it's Monday. It is all day long but you're already ahead of us because you are on the East Coast. Well, and if you're drinking, you take a shot every time I touch my hair today. Oh, okay. Okay, good. Good thing I'm just having water. That'll be good. Wow, that could be my third coffee. Let's get into being like our best broadcast ever, just because of that. Okay, Katie Warnick, we were saying in the chat chat. I feel like we've come to you at the beginning of so many changes throughout this pandemic because you're on the front lines. As a labor expert filling these different holes plugging problems, seeing trends that maybe the rest of us haven't quite seen yet and so with that in mind and you're going to be like thanks. Well, we want to talk to you about the status of the labor market and the first thing that we want to ask is, are there quality jobs available, or are we just looking at the kind of the lower level hourly wage jobs. Both their quality jobs out there people are hiring hiring hiring it's been such a change since I would say the fiscal year change since July one, there are really some good good jobs out there. What I was seeing is, how do I say this the best, I would say that there was, there's a lot of jobs, but a lot of the jobs were not filling so the vacancies were there the vacancies were posted. And then at the same time while I was speaking to candidates who were active with their job search, you know, finishing up the summer coming into Labor Day, they were saying you know, I'm not really getting traction, you know, which was weird, because you know I know when a good like a resume is good and you know it's odd to hear that. However, you know with nonprofits and the way that nonprofits do operate and everybody being on vacation and every board member having to meet every, you know, every single candidate that's going to be a higher level position. I think it was just a scheduling issue. So, you know we see this over the holidays to so the jobs were posted the vacancies were there they were interested. There were candidates that were interested, you know, maybe they just weren't getting communication from the organization about you know where they were in the process of being hired. There were a lot of candidates that we were active with, you know, we're basically like, wow, you know, thanks for your time with this job, but a position I interviewed for in July just got back to me, or position I entered, you know, so they had already hit first round second round third round with another organization, then we're reaching out to me and now they're like, oh, we're off the market now, which is fine you know that's the nature of it but that's sort of typical with nonprofits so you know just sort of waiting out that vacation time essentially and people get back into into hiring after a week or two after Labor Day. Well, one of the things I'm seeing Katie is, because I don't know I think it's LinkedIn and maybe indeed they send me job, you know, classifications or are openings that would essentially be what I would look for if I was looking for a full time job. And I am amazed, honestly, by the quality of some of these jobs because there are things like you know, Chief Development Officer and Chief Operating Officer and CEO so they really I've seen some of those C-suites, and I wonder if some of this has come out of burnout or compassion fatigue of some of these C-suites positions, maybe the the previous person has decided to resign. Is that is that what's opening up some of these more, you know, C-suite level positions? I've been seeing that a lot and then remember if we think about I don't know probably four months into pandemic whenever it was, you know, there wasn't a lot of those positions and I attributed it to a lot of the higher level people staying in place because no one knew what was going to happen. So if they had plans on retiring or they had planned on moving jobs, they sort of held steady to wait to see what was going to happen with the labor market, with their organization, with the economy, with COVID. And now those positions, you know, are opening up. And keep in mind a lot of people did, you know, retire. If they weren't going to retire, people have retired. Right. Yeah, I think that's really a great comment is, is I think you're right. And there are a lot of people that were ready to and had told their boards and everything that they were going to retire and that they were in that, you know, handing off or handing over leadership to a new crew and then all of a sudden, the pause button was like hit big time, and everybody just stayed in place. Exactly. So yeah, that's why you're seeing those jobs. But there are some good meaty jobs. And another thing to, you know, here in New York, I have a number of clients that are hiring because they've got additional COVID money. So positions that, you know, maybe they hadn't, or they thought about before. And now they could put them into their budget for July one and so they're their new sort of COO roles or something like that, positions that hadn't been with that organization before. Interesting. Okay, so then as part and part, part and parcel of that, let's talk about the money, the money, honey. Are wages and salaries going up? Or are they dropping? Are they staying the same? What are you seeing? I think that they're staying the same. I don't necessarily agree with that, but you know, nonprofits are nonprofits and what they think they should pay and what they budget are pretty set. And if they do need to go up or down, I don't think that it's effective for this fiscal year, you know. So what about additional benefits? Like, are people trying to negotiate in like more work from home? That's what everyone wants. No one wants to go to work. No one. It's just, you know, it's so, it's so huge. And, you know, I see so many different situations because, you know, again, I work with hospital foundations who have been in the office since basically the whole, through the whole thing. I work with schools that are private and charter that do have fundraising departments. The kids are in school. So those development departments need to be in as well. And then, you know, I work with organizations that are, you know, have remote programs going on. So their staff is completely remote. They gave up their office space altogether. But I would say that, you know, really no one wants to go to work anymore. So yes, they are negotiating that. Yeah, I think that's definitely one of those trends that I remember when you came on a previous episode, Katie, you really shared, you know, your information on that. And it's not just individuals that are applying for a new position. These are also individuals currently in their existing position that are now raising their hand and saying, I want a few more concessions. I want us to consider what this looks like. You know, and I know that many of us still have children that, you know, one week school is on the next week, there's been an outbreak and kids are back home. And so there's just, you know, there's still a lot going on in our nation to navigate. I do think that that work from home, as you said, so many people want to maintain a level of that. And I'm curious, you know, how long that's going to be allowed or, you know, culturally now, is that just the norm? I have a few opinions on this. Well, let's hear them to us. Yes. Well, you know, I'm pro work from home, if you are an efficient worker, if you feel like, you know, you're not working too much if you are signing in when you need to be signing in and, you know, it's not a problem. However, what we're 18 months into this, I feel like it. How can I say this politely and PC, I have always blamed the generation with sort of a disconnect with communication, you know, I'm 39. So I would say like anyone below 3637 really has no qualms about calling out of work via email or, you know, via text, sort of that that they would never call out sick anymore where I was a recent college read I had to be in an office I had to call the president of my company I had to say hey I'm coming in today. And that made me come in because I didn't want to make that phone call right. And sort of there's this disconnect generationally with what it's like to have a job and to show up for your employer right. Wow. So with that being said, which is something that I've always complained about with this generation and they don't understand and I hate to sound old but it's true right this generation this generation it's constantly coming out of my mouth. However, I think that now that everyone is working from home and has been for the past 18 months. It has now carried over and it's not an age thing anymore. It's happening across the board, and all ages at all generations, people don't know what it's like to be accountable to a person anymore, because we are relying on our electronic devices to call out sick to do things to to sort of just put ourselves on the line and be accountable anymore. So I at this point I understand you know you're saving commute time you're saving so many things you're being efficient, but the disconnect from human interaction is making us less smart, less reliable, less ambitious. There's a number of things going on, I'm super passionate about it it's like every morning I wake up and I'm like, everyone is bonkers, like I say that, all the time. It's, it's like bizarre overall. When my clients call me you know my reputation is is selling people you know I'm not selling staples I'm selling people right and people are flaky, and they're unpredictable, but my reputation is placing people at organizations. My clients call me I am putting my reputation on the line to represent someone every single time. Right. I am in a place for the past, I'd say, 10 weeks that when new clients call me or existing clients call me, I say, I have no candidate control. I do not know what to do. I have this, this era this generation this time what we are seeing what we are living through is absolutely insane. So I will send you a resume of a qualified candidate that has the skill set to do your job. If they show up, if they do it effectively, if they quit after day two. I'm sorry, you know that's a you problem because I am not. I'm not taking accountability and then I say that to my friends who do staffing in, in other industries, and they're like, you just said that as so well like you're articulating that so well just on the phone with one of my old friends that does it in financial services. She said that she's never been busier, which is how I feel. But there is no candidate control. No one is relying on their word anymore. We have we place teachers in schools too. And you know, these teachers show up two hours in they leave, you know, they're just like I don't feel good. I have to go get a COVID test. Who knows. And then if they say that they have a COVID test like I have to take that they have to go to. I have to take that seriously right. You know I was at Costco the other night and I was talking to the woman there and she's like, we have these kids coming into work at Costco and they leave on their lunch break. You know, it's happening across the board. A good friend of mine works on a tugboat. He works on a tugboat in the harbor, and he said that you know they're getting these graduates coming into work on the boat it's a seven week shift because it's the tugboat. And I was like, these kids don't they went to a maritime school, they don't last four hours, and they get off the boat, like, what is happening. So it's across industries really. It's across the board across industries. You know, you mentioned calling out sick and I so remember those days and there was a pit in my stomach, and there was a timeline because we had to call by the start of work by like 8am or 9am. And there was no other way otherwise it was an, you know, an unexcused kind of like absence. Yes, and it really you know like went towards your, your personnel file. And so what you're saying, how do we correct this is there a way for us culturally as humans to like create more accountability so that you know because I do know one of the one of our biggest challenges right now is that there isn't a workforce, or there's not enough workers that want to make up a workforce to be consistent and held accountable and do a great job in their position so what is what are some of your solutions to this Katie. I mean, I don't have all the answers right, but for instance when I worked at one of my employers if you're going to be out sick, we had to send out an email that went to the whole company. And that said, KRW is out sick today my initials. So you didn't call out sick, you went, you know, because you didn't want to be the person that initials were always in that email. So I think that if we're going to be working from home and you know you need to be offline or whatever it is that's a good way to find, you know, small, small accountability, you know things want, once you're in your organization. You know the fact that there was extended pandemic unemployment benefits, you know, I say this jokingly but it's very serious you know as a recruiter. It's actually kind of fun to post a job for like a CFO and then get the barista from Starbucks you know like it's it's a funny thing you know makes the day like oh look at that person is applying for this job. This summer, we would post. I had a CFO job. Nothing was coming in. Nothing. So I wasn't even getting you know the barista from Starbucks applying or you know the lifeguard, nothing resumes were not coming in, you know, and now and that was because everybody was on unemployment. So there was no motivation to be to be seeking jobs. So what do you think as you know as we move ahead and everything's a little different we've got one of the things we've been talking about on the show. And one of the things that we've been talking about lately of course is that we're in the fourth quarter so we are coming up on finishing up 2021 moving into 2022 believe it or not it is a mere, you know, few months away. How are you forecasting this job market in particular you know the nonprofit labor market. It's going to get worse before it gets better, you know, there are more jobs. I think that organizations are going to keep hiring like that, like they need to, they're going to get through this fiscal year, and then sort of reevaluate budget and what the needs are, I mean, I don't know, I don't, I don't know it seems like fundraising and philanthropy is only on the upswing right so in terms of the jobs there is going to be a need it's going to be busier I don't know what the the workforce is going to look like. You wanted me to give you an answer I don't know I don't know what's going to happen tomorrow or today like this is insane we are living in a bizarre time. Well what about I'm going to throw out a curveball for you Katie. What about some best practices when it comes to retaining our employees that we have right that we have employees maybe they've been there. For years but you know these are now our rock star employees so instead of looking for the workforce. How do we maintain and retain the workforce that we do have. Are you seeing anything trending there in the market. I love this topic. I don't see anything trending there it's something that I've always preached you know your your best recruitment strategy is your retention retention strategy. Yeah, if you find that you are having trouble firing or there is a disconnect. It might make sense to go to your current employees and see where they want to go in their career if they want to move to another department. How do we keep them because it should we shouldn't be at a place where candidates are saying to me there's no growth with within an organization when there's seven other opportunities in different departments. Because culturally that person is working out right they like the mission. So if there's no room for growth that's that's silly at this point let's make those employees happy. Yeah. What about also I've seen some organizations do a. Oh, I don't got it's like a bonus you know like a referral bonus is that working. I think that that goes so far, you know, I think that that's always been around. Some organizations don't implement it at all, or you know they have it in place but then they don't follow through so then the incentives and there to hire. I see those strategies more in corporate and sales jobs, and then a lot of my charter schools do it as well. They'll do a $5,000 bonus to teachers who refer other teachers that get hired there, which is great. They have the strategy the infrastructure the operations the policies the procedures all in place to make that efficient and running. I think that nonprofits are a little bit behind on that I think that it's a great idea and incentivize incentivizes current employees to refer their friends. I'm still thinking that the traditional paths for communicating job openings and job searches are still working so for example like, look, LinkedIn, or, you know, going back out to your inner circle and saying that you're looking for a job or are these things these practices still working I mean whether or not the marketplace is working but is this still a path to take. I think so I think that LinkedIn is pretty great. Just because you can connect with who works at that organization sort of right in one portal right. You know, idealist has such volume with so many jobs, but it's not sort of a quick way to find out who also works there that you might know and apply. And the same thing I've always said just about job portals in general you know with idealist you apply to a job and you never hear back. I think that LinkedIn it's a little bit more efficient, but I think LinkedIn is is a great idea. Now, and then I have another question in terms of the process for hiring. Have you found that because of the shake up and labor that we're hiring differently, like, are we still going through, you know you meet with HR, and then you go into the first group and then the second group and then you're meeting with all these different people or is it has that shortened. I can say that it is shortened. Oh, interesting. Okay. You know, and it's, again, I work with charter schools charter schools do operate as nonprofits, right. So, when I see, I see my nonprofits and then I see my charters at a point at some point in four or five years you know I, I think that my I'm going to listen to me and take my advice and say if you likes one move. So what does that mean. That means that if the HR person likes them, and they are getting set up with a hiring manager, they already have references collected, they already have a background check waiver ready to go. So that way if the hiring manager likes the person, it's within an hour, those steps of the process are done. So it's very, very efficient. It's very quick. They understand how hard it is to attract talent, and when it is found, you move, right, there should be no waiting if a hiring manager likes the person. However, on the flip side, yeah, with with just regular nonprofits, you know it's still first round with HR, and then a zoom with whoever else, and then in person and it's no it's it's taking a while, you know we should make it a little bit more efficient that's always my advice. Top talent is looking people are getting jobs, you know let's see that you gotta move quick there's no reason it should take one to four weeks at this point to make a higher if if two of those processes are on zoom. You know, two rounds of that process are can be done immediately in the same week to speed that up. And then are you finding once the offers made I guess it depends on what level. I would say that the candidate is ready to start immediately are you seeing that they are really saying I would love to start but I need to give at least two to four weeks to my employer and then you know what I'm going to take two weeks for myself like how are you seeing the candidate responding. Yeah I mean it's always two to four weeks for the employer which is obviously respectable and commendable. I haven't seen. Okay now I'm going to take two weeks for myself anymore which which is nice that warms my heart a little bit because you know a lot of people would do that but I think that because everybody's home and no one's really still going away. They don't typically do that. Okay. Well that hopefully shortens the time a bit. And then I have a another question I'm wondering how the contract workforce is playing a part in this ecosystem because of the gap of the workforce. You know whether it's full time or part time. Are you seeing like the contract employment really spiking in these opportunities. Absolutely especially jobs that are in person. A lot of the workforce resigned because they excuse me they don't want to be there you know and it's an organization that they have to be on site. So these vacancies are popping up and they're popping up immediately and they need bodies in their role. So there is certainly a hiring need for temporary workers to jump in and start positions. Yeah. Wow. We're on the up play and even at a higher level like like all levels. Yeah not just a yeah interesting. To a lot of clients that have and it's funny because well this is why I think it's funny. A lot of my clients that I work with that have full HR departments which means they do have a recruiter you know so they don't necessarily need me but sometimes they get stuck in a search and they're like let's call Katie you know they're hiring recruiters but I don't necessarily know that hiring additional recruiters is going to help them fill their jobs because I just don't think people want to work. You know so how many recruiters you need. Right. You have to mean you have one internal. There's just not people out there is the reality of it. We're not getting the responses. Well you know what's interesting and I'm helping an organization that is really you know focused on this workforce development and that is where there's a lot of money nationally is to develop the workforce but how do you develop a workforce that doesn't exist right. The workforce is not there it's not present there's no developing of this workforce because we need we first need that workforce. But I would ask the question though you know and this goes back to my you know econ major supply and demand in that you know we if and we ask Katie this question up front I mean if you're not in increasing the wages. Don't you think that's the next level is that we need to start to see an escalation of those wages and then we get we will start to see the marketplace show. I love that answer. Yeah, but I think that's true. It's true. I just feel like nonprofits always sort of get a trickle down effect, because they really do have to switch their boards mindset a switch the way that they do the budget it doesn't happen overnight for nonprofits. It can happen overnight for corporate or financial services it's very easy to them to adjust the budget nonprofits it doesn't happen that way. So, well and there's restaurants hiring at $20 an hour, you know, or even more depending on the market of what you're in. So, it's so fascinating and again Katie I just feel so grateful that we have you in our corner, not only as a presenting sponsor for us here at the nonprofit show, but you have really been with us through these later, you know, 18 months navigating talking to us telling us what's happening. You are literally right there in the thick of it frontline seeing this before, you know, many of us across the nation are seeing it so I don't know about you Julia but I am just so grateful because every time you come on Katie it's just like, Oh my gosh this is what's happening now what do we need to do to just pull up perhaps in a different way and it's just really been fascinating to hear your take on the workforce and really when it comes to you know negotiating salaries and just all of this so that we can continue to serve our communities. Yeah, for sure. It was fabulous Katie I was thinking this morning as we were getting ready. When we first had you on one of the things that you were like, Okay, everybody, keep your job. And it was all about, you know, the, the things we're going to change what we didn't know. We could have never figured this out that are seeing that this was going to change and so it's been really cool to have you on to kind of reframe this and target and, you know, we are only as good as our people. I know I can't wait to look back at this episode like in six months and be like what was I saying then let's see how different it is. No, I think it's great and I always appreciate your integrity and how honest and forthright you are because you say things sometimes that Jared and I don't want to hear or none of us want to hear, but it's the reality and it's, it's a great perspective to share again I'm going to say, Hey, Patrick, I've been joined by the nonprofit nerd yourself, Jared Ranson, when I think all of our sponsors who've been here with us since day one Katie was our very first sponsor, very first sponsor I don't know if you knew that Katie but you called me and you were like I'm so excited to be on this you guys are great. So, yeah, this has been an amazing journey and again all of those nonprofit leaders that share their time with us and support with us. It is amazing. Hey Katie we end the show every time with this message and we're sending it out to you and all of our viewers. Stay well, so you can do well. Thanks so much ladies.