 Welcome once again to the breakfast here in Plastivia, Africa. Our first major conversation for today is moving to, of course, Kaduna State to discuss security issues and what seems to be knee-jerk reactions to at least solve some of these challenges. In the news this morning, we've also reported in Niger State that about 30 lives were also lost in the last 24 hours to bandits. The National Assembly members have encouraged and, of course, urge President Mahmoud Al-Bawari to do all it possibly can to squash these bandits. We're speaking this morning with Yehuda Getso, who's an anti-terrorism and intelligence expert. Good morning, Mr. Getso. Thank you for joining us. Good morning. Good morning, Dr. Getso speaking. Thank you for having me. All right. Well, I initially have described it as knee-jerk reactions. I don't know if you would agree with that or, you know, your analysis with regards shutting down telecoms networks and banning the use of motorcycles in Kaduna State is, you know, not just a knee-jerk but a very important decision at this time for the Kaduna State government. What are your thoughts? Well, I think this is an opportunity for me and an opportunity for you and our audience because I'm right now in the field, conducting field-based research. Now in the Northwestern states, I was in Kazuna, I was in Zanfarasoko too. I'm right now that I'm speaking to you. I'm talking from Kaduna. Let me just give a background. Kaduna State have been a kind of environment of conflict, environment of chaos, environment of a political crisis, environment of a kind of turmoil, social and banditry among other things, kidnappings and other things that have been happening over the time and over decades, right since the years of 1980s, 1990s and the present. So to go straight to the point, yes, of course. All right, I'm having once again challenges with the feed from Dr. Yehosa Getso who's, of course, beginning with us live from Kaduna State this morning. The conversation is mostly on insecurity in those regions and the government's decision to shut down telecom services and ban motorcycles. And of course, what this really is, if this is the best steps that should be taken. Dr. Getso, can you hear us clearly? Of course I can hear you. I commend the Kaduna State government, the courage, the confidence of Governor Nassar Erefei for coming back to the table and bringing in all the related stakeholders to sit down and discuss and often in his ear to listen to the professional, technical and non-technical and community-based approach advisers being provided to him. And I really commend him for shutting the network in Kaduna State as part of the effort. But that is not the major things. I want our governments to be very, very careful to look at the implication, the economic implication, the social implication and even the security implication of turning off the communication, especially the network of the MTN, Airtel and others. Yes, of course, it has to some extent some level of impact that it can make but that is not the best way of approaching it. As I had been saying and I have been arguing, that all the governments in Northwestern State including Muhammad Nassar Erefei, you all know, you the governments and all the traditional institutions and all the security information. You know where these terrorists are, you know their locations, you know how to cordon them and manage the situation decisively. And military approach or carrot, kinetic approach is not the best way of dealing with this issue. You have to use the two methods of stick and carrot because you need to conduct a root cause analysis which have not yet been conducted to analyze the situation critically using the stakeholders and other professional expertise in order to identify and understand the magnitude and the capacity and ability of this bandit. I think to my perception, the military and the DSS and other security information operators are underrated and undermining the capacity of this bandit in the forest. That is one. And secondly, most of the personnel in the fields don't really understand and don't really know the belts, the network, the connection between one geographical line and the other geographical line, one political word and the other political word, one local government and the other local government. One location and the other location, one hideout and the other hideout, one dangerous place which may be a kind of a space for the criminals to hide and ambush the security agencies or security operators, the military, the DSS, the police or whoever may be there. But the locations are known. So since we know the locations or if you don't know the location we have the expertise, we have the knowledge and we have the ability and capability and we have the intellect and as well we have the therapy and I'm an expert of African forest therapy and I know there are many therapists among them in the security expert, all of us on board. Let's sit down and let's guide you through the process for which you can use to deal with this situation. I have been in Kaduna for a number of a couple of days and I have been to some of the dangerous and half forest locations where all these things are happening. I'm generating information from the locals even in the neighboring state of Niger state of Zamfara state, Kasma state. What is happening actually is as far as I'm concerned to the best of my understanding is that the criminals are now shifting and changing the trade the way at which they conduct their activity. Yes, of course, a government supposed to have ability and capability to manage and nurture the information and manage the communication of the criminals. So why you put off the communication? They know how to communicate using other strategy but you don't have the basis, the primaries that you're supposed to have on ground for you to fight the insurgents, to fight the bandits. Yes, of course, agreed. We have all the military formations. We have all the security establishments and the structures going into the forest for a number almost two, three months ago. Malam Nasr al-Fair, the governor of Kaduna state have been making the proclamations that the military are at the forefront in the forest fighting the criminals, fighting the insurgents and yet the insurgents are still attacking the common man. In Zamfara state, the governor has been making proclamations that they are making the success. They are succeeding. They are making progress. Why is the progress? When the attacks is being more avocados, more dangerous than what it was before, the shut-off of the network before and not even considering the implication or the social implication, the economic implication as well as the future implication because as far as I'm concerned, something entirely different will emerge. We have had informations in some of the locations I visited in Kasuna, like in Pascari, in Bapuori local government, in Sabuwa local government. Some Fulani leaders that are innocent were being slaughtered and killed. I have one of the NCE graduates who is a voluntary teacher, who is a Fulani. He was teaching in one of the primary schools, voluntarily. Government refused to give him a job. He sponsored himself to have acquired an NCE agitation. He was in class when some guys went and bring him out and slaughtered him, just because he is a Fulani. So I think what is happening in some of the locations, we cannot say that all Fulani are bandits. We cannot say that all Fulani are criminals. And I think we are now shifting the trend of the situation from banditry to initiating a tribal crisis that will emerge at a later time, after dealing with the banditry, the kidnappings and other things, then laws and governance will also struggle or will leave the predecessors or their successors with the problem of a kind of what they are creating, which is a crisis of conflict between the Housa and the Fulani, which is going to be more dangerous. Either we deal with it now, we supposed to, or otherwise a manifestation of a new criminal kind of crisis. A kind of attitude will emerge at a later time, maybe after 20 years, maybe after 10 years, maybe after 100 years, then I am already in the grave. Alright, Mr. Getsu. I want to say... While convening the government on taking the efforts, I have advised the government almost five to six weeks ago, the Kaduna State government, that you should stop all the Fulani stations along Kaduna Abu Jarod, and there is some other belt of Kaduna State. You didn't listen, but I'm happy that now you are listening, and also I commend you for banning the use of motorcycles within the state. It's very, very important. Alright, Mr. Getsu, can you hold on for a minute please? Mr. Getsu, just hold on for a minute. We see what's happened in Kaduna State. The governor has ordered the shutdown of telecommunications networks and services, and they say that is because insecurities under rise, and the states that have, you know, been locked down telecommunication services because of that fact, other bandits in those areas are now coming into Kaduna. That's really what they're saying. So they want to also shut down telecommunication services to deal with insecurity. But I want us to predict how successful this shutdown of telecom services in Kaduna might be by looking at how it has been in states like Zanfara that have already shut down theirs since the first week of September. How successful would you say it has been? What impact would you say it has had? Because when we hear from eyewitnesses residents in Zanfara State, they complain that banks are shut, ATMs are unable to dispense money, youth comm members are unable to communicate with their families in other states, businesses seem to be failing. And just a few days ago, September 26th, police put out a report, police put out a report that what happened was there was an attack by bandits at a police station in Zanfara State. So if we're still seeing attacks in Zanfara State where telecommunication services have been banned or suspended, what really can we say for Kaduna, Mr. Getsu? What impact did that make? If we are to learn from the lessons of what is happening in Kaduna, in Zanfara and Sokoto State as a result of shutting down the network, the communication, as far as I'm concerned, if Kaduna is to learn out of it, Kaduna wouldn't have come with this policy. But the policy is important to some extent, but to the greater extent is very, very dangerous. Very, very dangerous indeed. Because you are giving the criminals more opportunity to attack more other communities that are innocent because the communities were using the communication to report. The incident to have a distress call to the security formation so that the security can come to their end. Like I was saying, I'm right now in Kaduna and I have been battling, even inside the Kaduna city, I have been battling, in fact, even now I'm lucky to have the network stable. Yesterday I find it very difficult up to 2 a.m. I was trying to work on something but to have access to internet to connect to my computer and generate some information and share inside and outside the Kaduna, I find it very, very difficult. So I never support, and I will never support, that shutting off the network will be a result driver towards achieving what is expected. You know we are chasing shadow. We are leaving the primary and moving into the secondary. The primary is, you know where the criminals are, you can condone them and when you are hearing the National Communication Commission and other network sources should have been the kind of a meter that can be used in generating and mobilizing, generating the information and hearing the communication of what the bandits and other people are discussing so that you know where they are, you can trace their location and like the Minister of Communication justifies that one of the reasons why they are conducting, they are linking the NIN with a SIM registration which started a couple of months ago and we are here to see any impact out of it. So as far as I'm concerned, shutting the network is a secondary, it's not a primary. Yes, burning the motorcycles is a primary, it's not a secondary, but the best thing to do is I'm not really in support of shutting down the network because of its economic implication, security implication, social implication and other things. There are other majors that are supposed to be established before you go into shutting down the communication not because of unforeseen, not because the customer state does it, not because the quarter state does it. Even the attacks, not only in Shinkan fee police station, there was attack in many other communities, in many other parts of Zamfara. There are many unreported cases. There are many, the incidents have been underreported. I have been to many local governments in Zamfara and I have found out from the communities, I have been to many local governments in Katsuna state and I have been to some local governments in nature state and they are looking at what is happening. If at all, it has an impact. We have seen so many audio clips and video clips going around that Turkey has been killed, Halilu has been killed, Dank Alemiha has been killed, this and that has been killed, but they are all alive, they are still alive. And everybody, all the security formations and all the leaders, the traditional institutions, the locals and the operatives at the local levels, they know the locations of where these criminals are in Kaduna state. So why can't we use the efforts of land and air strike so that we can cordon where they are and attack them and destroy whatever arms they have and weaken their capability because they cannot be above this. Non-state actor cannot be above the state. I wonder if really Nigeria is a sovereign state or if really we have a patriotic leaders who really have a passion and compassion are ready to address this issue. Or else they are interested somewhere. I think that's the direction that I'm heading towards now. I think that's the direction that I'm heading towards now. You mentioned airstrikes, I don't even think I want to discuss airstrikes but I've been misfiring lately. But I want us to talk about what you've just stated and that is the political wheel and the interest of government to actually take this thing serious. The National Assembly was in the news this morning, the Senate telling President Muhammad Ubarri to declare war on bandits. And of course we also reported that 30 lives were lost in Niger state yesterday. These things are shocking, really, really shocking and hurtful. Seeing the numbers, seeing that these are innocent Nigerian lives that are just completely wiped off like that. The current administration, I want you to share your thoughts on what you think might really be going on that has led to these things, the failure of the government to stop these things from continuing. Is it lack of interest? Is it lack of infrastructure and equipment? Is it lack of training for our military? Or is it just... I really don't know how to explain it. So I want you to share your thoughts. These 30 lives that have been lost in Niger state, what would be the explanation for that? Well, first of all, I condemn the Senate and the National Assembly on their very, very late hours called on the president to declare bandits as terrorists. This is what will have been made six years back ago. They are all from those communities because how many members are from northern Nigeria and are from the affected states? What have they been doing for all these while? So I condemn in totality their action. I'm not saying that I'm not in support of what they said, but I condemn them and as far as I'm concerned, they don't have passion and compassion and they are not interested in their communities. If they are, they knew all these criminals and they knew where they are. This has been my word. Everybody in northern Nigeria knew that 99.9% of these bandits, of these criminals, of these kidnappers are indigenous of northern Nigeria and they are citizens of northern Nigeria and they attack locations they know and they attack the people they know. And they have, in each of the local governments where this criminality is taking place, out of the local government here in Kuwait, you cannot move out to 10 km without reaching the hideout of the criminals. So if at all we are serious, if at all the government, the Muhammadan administration government is serious and they have political and administrative will and there is no interest somewhere or they know the interest and they are ready and willing to track that interest and deal with it decisively so that a result base will be the outcome of what we are telling other counterpart of North East, counterpart of South West, counterpart of other regions that this thing is not happening. But where are all these members, is there any member of the National Assembly or is there any member of the Senate, any Senator, any Distinguished Senator that can tell me, can give me any evidence that he or she have ever went in their communities. Satu's locals discuss, invite probably professionals either non-an or non-professional, technical and non-technical people to sit down and conduct a root cause analysis and then make a presentation to the security information within the state because the reality is, it is either all the funds, the fundings we have been making, the funds we have been spending in purchase of hardware and other armaments is either the money is being pawned somewhere or is either the arms are yet to arrive Nigeria in the last five, six years ago that government have been telling us that they have been spending money for the purchase of arms and whatever or else it is very, very clear and glaring that we don't have enough and adequate personnel to fight these menace. It is very, very glaring. We don't have the personnel. Let's assume that if the government is serious at each foreign unit you can mobilize unemployed, educated and uneducated a young agile enthusiastic and patriotic Nigerians who are wishing and willing to go out to provide needed support to address this issue. Let me take you for example if each and every foreign unit you recruit 20 foreign units if you have political world have 20 foreign units you will have 40. If you have 10 political words it means you will have 400. So if you have 400 times the number of local governments you have in all dislocations you distribute them among the DSS among the police and the military they are willing and they are ready they are even ready to volunteer even if you are not ready to pay them. Even the uneducated ones you can use the old method used during the pre-colonial engagement with the police so that they can know how to do left and right and then you teach them and coach them and give them the basic technical skills so that they can deal with this situation decisively. My fear is the proliferation of arms is being more dangerous and more avocados because more arms are being proliferated and there is no major indicator telling us as we that we are moving around the communities and conducting researches and conducting physical and practical surveying, physical and practical monitoring, physical and practical kind of investigative research it is very very clear that the commitment of the government the federal government, the state government and the security operatives is very very poor and there must be interest somewhere and nobody I mentioned and I said nobody I repeat myself is ever ready to trust and track this interest even though I always refer to the Minister of Information who recently moved around I attended one of the meetings he had in one of the states of the Northwestern states he made mention statement far back that they know the finances they know where these bandits are and they know their finances so if you know where they are are you really a serious government what can you deal with them decisively innocent lives are being killed in the case of Zonfarra and other states that shut down communication I want to tell you if you look at me in the last one week I have shared because of what I saw in the ground because of the situation I made in the local government I visited it's really pathetic I'm telling you when you will hear more terrible stories when the network is restored in Zonfarra when the network is restored in Kaduna out of the Kolojo and when the network is restored in Zonfarra because the locals will expose the governments Dr. Getzo can you hear us we seem to have lost there's so much to unpack I'm not sure what exactly where all of this is headed what we really would learn from all of this but there's so much to unpack Dr. Getzo there's people who have also made mention that there is a possibility that there is insiders there are inside players in the current government both at the state and the federal level that have made this fight difficult to win there's those who have said that they're fitting from the insecurity and that's why they've continued to let things faster and of course there's the religious aspect of it there's people who have said why has it always been southern Kaduna that has continued to be victims of some of all of this it's difficult to explain it's difficult to understand and of course it might also be more hurtful seeing that the current administration rode into power claiming to have the answer to Nigeria's security challenges same thing with the Kaduna state governor now and I'll say Arufai and how much criticism that he poured out for the previous government of Goodluckabela, Jonathan and so I want you to share your thoughts on these is it possible would you agree that there might be insiders that have made this fight difficult for the government to win that have made it hard for us to win against the bandits and also what is the mood towards the current administration for people living in Zamfara and Nassarawan, Barno and some of all those places let me first of all disagree with you and other people who have a view that what is happening is only affecting it has a religious linkage especially what is happening that it is happening only in Kaduna south is Giva a Christian local government is Vinongwari a Christian populated local government is Zaria a Christian populated local government is Zaria Kaduna south is Iqara Kaduna south is Makarfiq Kaduna south so we should stop kind of sentimentizing this issue to the religion or linking it to anything concerned if the true Muslims the true Muslim scholars that bring Islam to Nigeria will come back will fight the Muslims in northern Nigeria because we are not practicing Islam we are practicing something else and if the Christian the Orientalist will come back to Kaduna or will come back to Nigeria will fight the Christians so let's not hide under the disguise of religion and keep politicizing this as a security issue it has no relationship no Iota of relationship I was in Kaduna south I was in part of Zangwon Kata I was in part of Kachia I was in part of Kajuru and I was in some part of also Kaguaku and other Southern Kaduna local governments and I have been to other Muslims highly populated Muslim local government it has no relationship no Iota of relationship to those religions I disagree with this go on it is only the elite the political elite the economic elite and the social elite and the criminals and disguise that are hiding under the religion and hiding under the tribalism while they meet in Abuja and share Abuja and Lagos and wherever they share contracts they award contract to their friends and parents and they are the ones that always victimize me and you and tell us that he is a Muslim he is a Christian that is not the truth I am a practical community based researcher and as I am telling you that I have been in the north western state I left my family for almost 19 days I am moving around taking all the risk and moving around all the crisis locations and as far as I am concerned I believe I cannot point out that they are at any finance either in the government or outside the government but definitely there is interest somewhere and governments need to do the needful as mentioned by the minister the minister of information that they know the criminals and they know where they are and they know their finances so if you know their finances what are you waiting for yes of course nobody will say no that there is no interest within the government or within the people within the cycle of the government that are frustrating the efforts of the government this has been revealed by many researchers and many evidences the Nigerian police force represented some of the other security formations some of the other security formations who were found to be conniving with the bandits and others so that is one two many that have been arrested apprehended and presented before the public by the Nigerian military or the DSS or the police at the national level especially those who were presented recently by the Nigerian police force PPRO where he made a presentation of those the suspect of Bertel Institute in Kedinapas looking at them they have a military uniform where do they get it who is supplying them and many of those who were arrested and apprehended and presented by the Zanforestate government by Zanforestate police command by Kazunas state police command by Sokoto state police command by Kazunas state and other states that are affected they do have military hardware and software and other things armaments and others have the government ever provided us a feedback where do they get those things and how can they get access to armories yes I have had the naval officer who made mention that in other states of our neighboring states that is Niger, Benin and others they don't have armories the naval officer I commend her for her confidence and courage for saying that we should build all things so that we can protect ourselves I don't think we have that maturity I don't think we have the capability what we need first is to even manage the crisis within so those in the government the governments themselves they should look around themselves and critically conduct a critical assessment and critical review of who these people are and also a trackers need to be need to be strategic action to develop a trackers so that they can understand and have an items for who is not doing what and who is doing what definitely within the security cycle there is interest definitely within the government within the policy makers and policy implementers there is interest definitely we cannot say that as far as I'm concerned the security situation and this challenges of mandatory is manageable within 16 weeks if at all the government is serious I want to ask you a very simple question all the while that there has been a security or telecommunications ban in Zamfara state and there would about to be in Katrina state once is approved is it that the governors of this state would have no access to their phones and internet services I want to start from just the governors the governors and their errands they have access to their phones okay I'm saying that would they have access to would they have communication access and internet access in Zamfara state the government house internet is working okay fine that's what I want to know Mr. Getzo please hold on I have a very simple street for questions so if you say the Katrina state government all the while that there has been a suspension of telecommunications service if they have internet access if they have been able to make calls why do you think the bandits and the terrorists who have been so smart to hijack military planes do not have the access to technology to still communicate while there's a suspension of communication networks and really if that's the case what's then the essence of this telecommunication suspension if not to provide on the economic of the state and just of the people well as far as I'm concerned the essence is political because it's a diabetic from reality like I mentioned suspension of the telecommunication is a secondary why can't we deal with the primary before we go to the secondary suspension of the network of the communication will have effect on social life will have a serious effect on economic life on economy and will have serious effect on managing the correct job we are getting at what I'm getting at is this if you are saying that telecommunication networks are suspended in some states but the governors of those states still have access to internet and of course they can make calls what makes us think that these terrorists cannot find a way to bypass that telecommunication suspension well I will not be surprised if these terrorists have other access for communication and of course there are areas and belts in the forest that I know and I'm very confident that some of the forest belts that I know and their connection and connectivity within Nigeria and West Africa the some of the major generals and some of the Brigadiers and Connors don't know them I'm saying this in confidence I'm saying this confidently and I have been making this assertion before the directors of the SSS and the CFIS of the police and all the commanding officers of the military I know the forest much more than they know it I know the link of the belt within the forest of the belt the communities that the security they don't know and there are many other experts like me and as far as I'm concerned the criminals since they are mobilizing Ronstom I know I'm very confident between yesterday when the governor made announcement that he's going to say telecommunication is going to be shut down I'm very optimistic and confident it will be an opportunity for the criminals to mobilize more other resources by probably subsidizing the prices of those in captivity so that their parents or their relatives can collect them at a lower prices and for them to make huge amount of money in between the time of shutting down the network and the time it was announced so that they can utilize it in probably getting access through the Toraya and other things I know Nigerian communication commission I'm doubtful if they have control over the Toraya and other communication and other technologies from what people disc bandits and other criminals in this forest I don't have any physical evidence but from the behavior because being the consultant their attitude and their attitude I believe I believe so much that they have the possibility to be break by the national communication commission that is why we would have to wrap up here a lot of stories would come out all right of course love to speak with you as a follow up to these discussions and of course whenever Zamfara Telecom's ban is lifted we will get feedback from you all so thank you very much for your time as always and we wish you a very very beautiful day ahead thank you for having me thank you and good bye you know where to find us absolutely it's simply a plus to the Africa on Facebook, Instagram and same with our YouTube channel I am Osaldi of BOR