 Perfect. Well, thanks for coming. I've written a book. I have a lot of stuff, not many published over. I'm just going to get through it quite quickly and talk about some of what we're doing and you brought us to how we can improve it. I am not a marketer, so my ideas are dubious at value at some point. But one of the things I think we need more of is investments for a plenty of things in New York. There are lots of good ideas, and we need to make sure we can fund these and attack new markets, fix new features, improve things everywhere. And the question is ultimately how to get investment? Well, I think before we look at that, it's going to be useful to think how are we currently built, that we brought this, and how that actually happens. So here's a pretty picture. It has a numbers on it. Sorry. The picture is to try to make the numbers more interesting. But currently we have something like 600,000 euros of donations, mostly around 10 euros, none of them very much, coming in from consumers, I would argue, as individuals downloading it, and that's one of them. That allows us to run TVF. Of course, there's some advisory rule fees that go into that too. There will be some more. And I would argue we have approximately zero donations from enterprises. Enterprises tend to contribute, if at all, by getting a long-term support, new consultancy, getting some kind of services, it goes to our corporate contributing ecosystem, say, companies like Calabra, Zinn, you know, Minagora, obviously Breadcats and others. And these then contributes back to the trade. So this is the picture of Cade. We brought this as a market for Cade, but looking at Cade is something we can reasonably easily measure. But I think if we have an arcade, it's not something we can translate, it's actually what I would say. We need to improve this, and we need to improve the other things too. In addition to contributing something like 70% or the 70% of Cade commits, also due to the reviews by tax or not self-reviews, you find out that more than half of them are also held by corporations. So there's really quite a significant impact there. My companies also continue to invest in the ecosystem, although, you know, it's a relatively small inflow. And some of them are making bosses, which you can also consider as an investment. That's great. And again, of course, there's some degree of profit-taking companies like to make profit. Any questions? Do people or, you know, something, if you have a problem? So there are some alternatives that we could structure only just in different ways. I'm just talking about Russia, but here's one that's sort of, I guess, Mozilla as a business. That probably does this. You know, in joining the brand and the consulting or development enterprise, I think it's generally a sort of a centrally planned way to manage things, and it doesn't hit every price point. There are people who have a passion for serving a bit of a charitable resource and need to earn, you know, a small amount of money from other people who have a passion for, you know, and their own language translation and want to build business there. And these are all things that are very hard for a single company to price them, this cost structure, whatever. So why would I give the TVF doing everything? Excuse me. It's going to be to a centrally planned and disaster area that doesn't serve all of these interesting niches that a diverse ecosystem can potentially serve. So I might not have had this, but it's certainly an option. And if you assume that people would continue to do this and so on, then this might work. I think the problem is that the existing professional service companies would eventually collapse into the TVF because having one customer is not great because it's small. And in consequence, it's very unlikely that people invest significantly because there is giving them features that act as a separate ecosystem. So I think you'll just see a gloss there. And so it's possible that we could restructure ourselves like this and turn it to a centrally planned TVF because it's a business model. I didn't like the TVF. This is part of the problem. Certainly an option. Another thing is that we could just get down the extreme bit at least in some experience. The freer is in there, where everything is free forever and always. And we then continue to get nothing from TVF pretty much, from enterprises. Presumably the consumers are, you know, happy to get software and continue to donate. Perhaps there's still some consultancy that goes into here. But then again, it's very hard to sell a product against everything is free and forever. There has to be something like a migratory scarcity that some of them pay for. So TVF provides everything, or consultancy, migratory treatment, whatever happens to be. It's very hard to fill the business. And so I think this would potentially harm our actually it's quite significant in illicitry. They very substantially grew this number. This is actually far less money because we're missing a million euros versus the previous numbers. Assuming because business is a greater free road, free writing. If they can avoid paying they have something more. And we see that in many ways. So that's a very different business. So as other people suggested, we should, as TVF, use a shared on-telling supported version. We should do a more free as-in-via version. And we should provide that for everyone over in charge for the small, hugely increased the amount of uptake of software. And in the end, profit. So I think this is an approach with monoclonal data with VOTU. And we see the end of that which is decimating the Linux desktop ecosystem in terms of other companies and ultimately failing and firing on desktop. So I'm not particularly thrilled by that approach. I just want to say but I'll say that there's an engineering problem here. If we wanted to long-term support all of these releases that we have a formidable engineering problem of doing that. And that's something that's really hard to do particularly because companies today do this and that's really, you know, there's a huge amount of work there funded by Internet Process that do it. Of course you can reduce the number of releases that you support say as engineering. But actually you'll notice that Ubuntu was eager here to not shift the version of Red Hat worshiping in the shared engineering problem but to shift something slightly newer in their ways. And so they ended up being many people that supported Red Hat. So a lot of that extra work and so on supported this branch. And so it seems that people really want to shift the latest thing on their time and that overrides any concern you're going to support in the two years or four years or whatever on your own. So there's no free lunch there. I think the other thing about TVF providing an RTS version is that many of the staff working in these distributions of whom there are a part of justifying their role and slightly organization to say we do this if we provide this or we back all patches we give this a derivative effect again. And if another organization outside says we do that suddenly have even less investment in your ecosystem because it's even easier for the districts to free write as well. So what was other do that then and a half a billion dollar a billion cash account from search. The other thing to say about TVF doing this is really a corporate problem not a consumer problem. And it's unclear why all of our home users donating 10 euros which would be very great for them. Should be subsidizing companies avoiding the abilities avoiding the need to invest themselves. So what why should that so I just like to look at how our ecosystem currently works and the several different business models in that how that's shaped. So consultancy is a professional services a contribution is this year it's very clear of us as a need and they go to the next and they've deployed the brokers it doesn't do what they want or something like that. What's this happening? So typically they the idea is they deploy the brokers they find they have a problem they find the budget for it sometime later three to five months I mean the budget's a yearly problem and then they tender sometimes they tender twice as a framework tender a year later another tender the actual the task and then eventually they sign the contract hopefully with one of the vendors the vendors all compete with each other so the price is significantly lower so in terms of the money that's invested so you as a buyer want the money to be low a big young standard we as a community want as much money coming into our ecosystem as possible so in fact if we have a world where everybody tender maybe it could be 50% less money coming to our ecosystem we have to tender at the end we have to what I just pointed out so then you you do the work it's often quite quick the prepayment for it often arrives after the work is done there's then sometimes a three month validation phase meanwhile LibreOffice is releasing this standard and then there's a final payment and eventually they deploy the state release this process is horribly inefficient extremely risky makes many people estimate the same work reduces the amount of stuff that comes in it's also very very risky the first thing so the first thing to say is a consultancy business is not things people invest money in significantly if you go to a venture capitalist and say I want to start a new consultancy business it was something not that you know quite aggressive way they want to see a product they want to see a service product only title is a N.A. and not seen as a scheme of work I wouldn't say that I think I think they would invest in a consultancy but typically they the amount they'll loan you is insufficient for you to start the business because the return they expect from the investment is about two times the back way here at the top point of the investment and to put it out I've been I have to take my company to VCs and I was investing and their main point is that without an accepting of the customers in they won't loan you enough money to start the business I think that's I think we've brought you saying something we're saying they would they would invest in something with a consultancy model if they like for example title if they can if it is presented to them in a way that indicates that they're able to start the business on the low investment that's possible given the money so it's it's all money but since a good thing to see is that a lot of the consultancy are typically reaching a new layer grace margins the you know professors and maturity ventures are again a lot of grace margins on the consultancy are 20% you know as of 2019 which means and 20% is no problem if you're a product business like Intel and you can make it up on the low margin you have hard-core and estimating and then you have the pipeline to start very aggressive so you have loads of contracts and the pipeline at once to try to hide this latency and that results in very slightly business and if you win lots you have fees but if you don't win lots you have famine it's very hard and so I think trying to keep people going and keeping the motivations it's as you grow a consultancy it's like trying to get worried faster in the pot you still don't see any further ahead just because you're working faster so consultancy you know it's a great business what we do off our business on that but it's hard to escape the other the other piece you miss here is the file the bug up screen paper someone takes before you freeze which is another phase in the last quite some time so that's why I think the ideal model of the every consignment screen is the temperature or to the same product fixed cost and you can play and make it larger and actually when you build a product this is the most you have lots of parts customers or whatever want the same feature and you can implement it for the parts and you can tell what's done for them which is true but this is the three parts and you can aggregate lots of smaller bits of money together in a simple way to actually the other things so that's that's what we do and of course from the SLA perspective if you've got this or you can deploy this thing you can get patches back and you can close this very quickly because you have your own version that just works so within within one week in the best case you can have a fixed view of this within a month or a half hour you can have one too so anyway that's just some idea of some of the models there very interesting but this is basically teaching people to suck eggs there's a bank account yeah you're getting an interest on that probably not so you think I'll put my money somewhere else right I will invest it in something and you can invest it in horses if you get out of the racetrack you can get great returns you know it's 57 times a return but the reason of that is it's not going to win and you will move everything or you can put it in a house most people when they invest their hard earned savings for lifetime what they're probably interested in is not so much the return that comes back but getting their original capital back okay so you know you smash your piggy bank in the Libra office when you smash your piggy bank you invest it in Libra office like this this is the easy bit writing the checks it's fun and then all sorts of good things are done but we need to make sure that what happens is not this one if you get a smaller return or you lose your money which is then are you going to continue to invest in this thing? I think the answer is no and so nothing happens of course if you get a larger return you may need a marginally larger if your idea is but at least getting your capital back you will like you to re-invest which is good so if this money then effectively comes around the system again if you get a significant larger return what you discover is that this is a significantly larger investment so in fact by getting a return you can crowd more money it's obvious I don't want to hate to say obvious things but sometimes they are things that are not said so what I think TVN is interested in is getting more investment and getting more and more diverse vendors to invest in this so so how is it having put something into Libra office you can get a return say we go away and we put 100,000 euros into writing some cool new feature for Libra office how do we get a return on that? how does the company get a return but for that it how do we even correlate those things together so here is my thing on private marketing so marketing is hard but at the end of the day what you want to need is some customer of course not only me actually buys anything and sells this product right they have to go out and buy them and camp their children and go to the bar all of this stuff and then eventually they close something that can be re-invest and there is lots of ways of marketing obviously ways of web advertising two euros a click something like that for for your advert here right and these things they don't they basically don't work so we put quite a lot of money into this product and it doesn't result in in leads that we can close at least certainly not in proportion so it doesn't result in leads but not enough to pay the customer a click now of course TVF gets free money from Google to do that right I knew this is an effective way to get people to download it and free we think yeah actually looking at what get making a better analysis they click on it I think that downloads are negligible in comparison with clicks on that it's so it's a more branding exercise than than download because it's it's really if you look at the conversion it's less than 1% so it's not really helping our downloads yeah so one of the things that I'm thinking sorry is to change the page where they're going to see if changing that brings something different to donations or any involvement or any other activity yeah so it's less than 1% to view through a click and then you tweak it so your things are cheaper but if you yeah absolutely you know how much Microsoft beats on the on the world office 25 dollars right so there's no space for anyone else so that's we're going to get that back with our developers and make a maximum of bit yeah so we all of our bits are under two euros per click no no they're way below because we're capped there so we're not interfering with your if you advertise you get the clicks first we could advertise we spent I think how much we spent a thousand 10 or 15 thousand pounds on this I mean we looked store invested and we tweaked it we optimised it but the reality was this is not a great way to advertise you'll think you can do conferences and they cost around 5,000 euros minimum to go to conference and do the sponsorship of the conference so you actually get to move travel to there and so on if you're a sort of pseudo and source project next to our own cloud and you're really a sort of corporate control project often get a free move and a free brand one tip like TTF does but in a vendor neutral non-profit like you've got this whatever service doesn't go conferences Patrick government April source well-meaning people compared by Simon Fitts Simon has generously said look you know you can have a response to the conference you can do a lot worse buying sponsors you know like this other solicitors much appreciated as steers to the conference 150 people in it which you know are the right people still belong in the market right so this cost is far too expensive to replicate the scale of the major return so you don't get these there or you have to pick your conferences extremely so other things you can do you can have a brand so like organic search is a big part of our business our brand is people are aware of our brand our brand our office our money I don't know why but they search for it and they find us and so we get some degree of that that's often driven by news so a lot of people on these news items they're about the cool new things that we've done and so on and possibly you know another huge thing is linking you know if we can attach ourselves to another project if we drop this or which we do some work then it's reasonably cheap to get leads from that if you're interested and so that's that's my take on product marketing I don't know if it seems realistic but if it's reasonably helpful so here's another kind of problem I'm saying framing is really important how you present your product is simple this is a particularly pathological example though like we are the next desktop isn't the most I mean if you run about I was at Susan so I saw a different side of the isn't it all wonderful and free and forever group club you know the logo is a group club isn't that great no cost at all nothing LTS support is free forever and you can just you will always be there for you but the reality is what's the marketing message an extremely powerful result of a very large usage the actual work on this desktop was primarily being done by Brett and also Susan to a large extent was that Brett's desktop architect and his team I saw the impact of the entry of the Sentinel market and the de-resourcing of it now of course Brett could have invested much less in the desktop much more in marketing which is good for marketers and we could have a D invested if all investment if the truth is in marketing technology now that's the project we brought it's what we want it's lots of investment in technology not lots of competing marketing messages I don't know maybe maybe there's a bit of a difference but this is certainly a pathology that some particularly are bad one way around it is it's brand sharing all the way by a open office everybody comes to it or just or next cloud or own cloud but it's really a corporate thing so there is a and it's a community website it's very thin everywhere you go there's a buy there's a pricing there's a get support there's all these these vectors of steam there I don't think that's appropriately wrong it's obviously but it explains why other open source projects perhaps have easier writing there is a company that makes that a brand so here's an example of just something we haven't done this is quite interesting so this is for commercial branding so to have a line of something we've modded into how we use a code obviously is off consumer brand we get news and search and things from that we get leads from that that allows us to sell something and so we put a code back into Leigh Roberts which is great everything is open if instead we have a massive marketing drive on Leigh Roberts online then we can have a whole layer of interest there we drive people to this page instead we tell them about Leigh Roberts we build that brand they all head to a global foundation and at which point almost none of them can discover a collaboration which since our investment here is proportional to the lead flow however life is potentially instead of being a hundred percent it's a fraction of a percent that can potentially kill Leigh Roberts and so I'm really grateful that in a large part in a large part in quite restraint about how that goes on where does that point zero point percent come from when this comes from the professional sport page here has some twelve and a half thousand links when you look at the bounce rating you're adding a million versus the nine million unique page views for the download page for some of our up top pages who do not need top code and donated versus anything coming through so you see that nine million into six million not everyone thinks that's right but basically no one comes to the professional sport page which is a shame our whole ecosystem you know the business is their certification you know so quite my greatest trainers and people their business is being seen and if you are a small individual certified trainer getting visibility is hot I mean it's hard for Canara to get to get into a big team of they turn to people and blah blah blah all the staff right but if you're an individual and you want to build a business around Leigh Roberts we want you to do that we should be trying to help you and get that it seems to me just to visualise 0.05% so this is the code contribution by charge or some of the companies of course there's mentoring going into part of the volunteer events and this is the proportion of people that are coming to Leigh Roberts then notice the professional services that go and what to acquire so I'm lucky that we can do better and actually it should be easy to be better going from 0.05% to 5% or even 1% or even 0.5% is potentially a very large win and hopefully it can help so as of today TVFSR is a very small proportion of Leigh's for Leigh Roberts and it's a shame what else? so I think you know what we love to talk about I think there's a lot of improvements here and one of the things I've used a lot yesterday is it's all about security situation which is outstanding and I'm always thinking they're going yes it's all done by way of you know and I was just thrilled to see you credit way of it because Red Hat this is a Red Hat investment we have a secure product and a much more stable product mainly because of Red Hat there's practically no one else investing in that and so it's great to say that I think that's a new bear I'm a bear reasonable that's a new bear but I think in terms of what we talk about and we start to talk now and Laura and I press releases about how Leigh Roberts has developed it's great but I think we need to have much more humor to focus on you know what's the relationship to the press release and how that actually ends up in driving behaviors we want I think the other thing is that if we market a product and we say Leigh Roberts is awesome which it is come and get it and use it it's great which it is we don't necessarily prepare people for the it's a camel problem right there's a real camel issue here and so when they come back and get my camel I have to beat it in these cases it doesn't do what I want there can be some upsets there and people write you know why is it not working and they expect support we get these things saying I donated why are you supporting and I've got some things in the paper which I'll publish soon you know my company uses the latest I think version of Leigh Roberts and we have a problem with integrating with this tool can you help me this is a request on security yes for free companies fixing our security rights read it out reply and say well what version have you got we've got 4.2.0.4 which is not really the latest version Leigh Roberts I'll give you these people who have not understood their need for getting a supported version so it's not actually serving them and it's not serving us which is slightly unfortunate and so I think as we talk about the product we need to talk about the product of course that we also need to talk about the community because actually this is a real moment it's not just for me it's not just for companies it's for volunteers for all the team clean clean staff I think crediting individuals for their contribution is something beautiful that we can do and we should do prominently because we are a product made by people and even if they pretend to wear bubble t-shirts red t-shirts and be a company first of all they're not different from anyone else they're green t-shirts and do marketing and it's a great work happening and I think celebrating individuals is a really important part of what we do we need to do that more and more effectively and talk perhaps less if in a zero sum game move the balance of the scales here to talk more about our community I think in the marketplace it's typical in our industry to say look at this amazing demo come and buy it and the subtext there is of course when you bought it we would use your money to fix it and make it actually do what we told you it would do so that's the investment that's the investment so that's the investment cycle hype cycle in our industry the Cigrada Vermeer model can we see the sports in cathedral it's not quite finished and in paying you you make it better unfortunately our marketing can sometimes it's an amazing product it's entirely free and we'll work out how we can actually fund finishing and polishing and making it secure but some of that is a problem you know later and I think a more helpful approach is come and look at our amazing projects our contributors and getting involved improving this great product right so we're talking we're leaving with project contributors software open source and you know the subtext they need but clearly should be fun and we should talk about that as well as we sell the supported Libra Office I often meet people who seem to think that it's not authentic there's actually a problem with buying something that doesn't have Libra Office on it I want the real stuff I want the real Libra Office and unfortunately TDF are the only people who can fix that and convincing them it's hard for us to be perceived as being a fake knockoff of the project that we do so much to build and that's very real I'm sorry Torsten's in the air too you know back me up on this I was talking with him the other day I think he said it's a repeated problem and if we cannot sell you know products that people can use no it's very important so we'll today become I think that I have all of the conclusions I think I had time particularly to so one of them I think is pretty clear I think a whole lot of little details that we can use change in this area one of them is just this bit of text here which is my next one if you deploy Libra Office in an enterprise or corporate environment or a conservative user please choose this version I would argue you need to choose Red House Libra Office Sibs Libra Office from Sib how I sell for all collaborators I think so this is leading there's a good thing here about getting support alongside it but I think the way Libra Office it's released it's really schedule it's support schedule and so on is not what enterprise users should be using they should be using a professional product from someone that does the orium for five years or we don't care about the consumers and so how we can then focus this more on the consumers who pay our bills and donate to us and encourage people to not use it in a way that actually hurts our health so I think you want to add some good ideas there about positioning this for being system on profits I should point out again we're not suggesting changing anything about the software particularly but you should get rid of this particularly or have something different so you can still come and free ride if you want if your business is based on this so be it but in terms of how it's presented we want to steer people away from deploying as a government in large enterprises because we should be taking some of that saving and putting it into improvement after I probably simply won't you know have a successful future system I think that was by the end of this good call this morning but I think it's free now the consumers are as famous for the pointing out if you call stuff free software you're immediately going to lack a price free network and actually if you all care but there are better ways to say that Libra office not free office we have it in our name but when you hit the website the first thing you see is free office suite giant banner at the top download now and this is well tuned it works no I'm not there's nothing to be wrong with but I think the framing can potentially be problematic and all of our calls to action are downloaded now and I think if we need to emphasize more on community and growing that I think potentially starting maybe with fantastic people you know just that should really go to the get involved page yet I've talked about changing this I'm not sure if it's possible with this because it's it's but yeah it doesn't make any sense that I've downloaded all of that we need to be separate messages yeah absolutely and I think which one we've presented to people maybe we reduce our downloads slightly but increase our people performance I mean that's a brilliant trade because actually contributing far more than any 10-year-old donation 1% conversion rate or a you know the one year we get from you know losing a person we lose we lose a person we can get 50,000 euros contribution we could never have definitely we could grow that community and you know more people more fun so yes then I ran out of time to put all sorts of other actions yeah so you think Mike and Natalia have a long ways but I think really just celebrating corporate investments which is what we do there's a lot of it we can do that factually we can find creative ways like to make that possible I think but I think we need to stop doing that and making it making it clear that everyone is a welcome body just as we should be celebrated I think from a strategy to say TDF really needs to remove the fear of doing something wrong accidentally promoting you know somewhat something you should because you know whatever whatever I think we need to get a bit less tight about about that clear guidance if you're doing that and I think we also need to give confidence to to people invest I think we need to be really upfront about what we're doing so I think if you look at this picture the problem is this step here when you take this step to put your money down and actually invest it all you need to be sure is by the time actually anything happens you actually get return because the returns are not immediate anytime you invest it's a year later it's two years later five years horizon or trying to build your product proud right it's it's debilitating the rules you think the rules can change underneath your feet in a random a semi-random way or a way that actually make it worse you can do other things or it's connected to all sorts of other things it's very very problematic so there's a serious risk obviously of any kind of investment but having a well-defined structure it's very very very powerful on that so just as an example if you're investing here and writing a smart part it's nice if actually you get credit for that really clearly you know and that's presented as something that has been done by this party and the commentator fair reasonable and so then you know people see that hopefully a great amount of opportunities to write something so I think that's pretty much my talk but whether I said it was not much in terms of development or change of road maps or you know how we develop stuff I think the wrong things that we can do are at least more and sensitive and actually have a disproportionate impact so we've started to do something like pop-ups this little little bar that says if you're investing here join our fun community which is showing you the results already on my head and this is something you're unlikely to see in a commercial product and so we start to remove this to be a consumer product and this to be an enterprise product sort of creating more room for all that by qualification so that's good I think we could do more of that talking about free software source I think we could change every time so it's more more consumery I don't know if that makes sense but I'm trying to make you guys agree with my ideas of hey well we can make it a minimal thing we can make it you know we can configure the defaults there's always still the enterprise version there but actually the default looks like a more fun captain UI experimental unit there's all sorts of things we can do the art style there's not consciously boring there's more hey let's have fun stuff we can bring back Easter eggs so it's amazing how much the idea of Easter egg brings out all the customers in a rash they think it's some kind of virus that can kill them but it can just be like with the Tetris gave you a spreadsheet right I'm going to license that basically never kill anyone but actually that's something we really really hate and potentially we could remove them in the past for our enterprise users but actually if we're a fun consumer-focused product well actually you might like to go and discuss type fun games like our gaming and watching our videos why not right so do you think then if users and enterprises are still after professional support that's something maybe we can fake into the interview box itself we've added things to the help menu for instance to get involved in companies we've had an info bar now after 30 days of installation to get involved do you think there's some scope for like professional support or just a blue sky idea and that says this is a community supported version so I'm excited but I think we have to be really tasteful about how we do this I don't know I think so I hate pop-ups I don't think it's great to put in the help you know that's kind of clippy you know you're pit-by-easing this for new boards have you considered buying professional support yeah yeah I would put in the help I would you know I would advertise in fact that we have a community yeah within the code but I I hate pop-up that only comes up once and tells you to join the community and I would take even more a pay now you know pick one of the columns for your service providers now snooze for one month yeah the problem is it's very hard to distinguish Simon as a let's say consumer user from IBM to playing million seats in their things already related but in some cases it already has this concept that if you're using it for more than 10 documents and 20 current users probably you're a business not a home or a charity or whatever and so then it puts up a notice saying this is not suitable to do this where it's at so I have a question so one of the things you didn't mention anywhere in the presentation was addressable market sure and one of my concerns is that because of the way the world is going into cloud-based software the addressable market for the amount of money actually available for a collaborative capture is declining on a desktop product and I wonder whether you have any market research that shows the addressable market and whether you are able to give any indication of the opportunity you believe you have lost by TDA's current behavior that's a really good question to save you so much I don't know what the addressable market is but I do know you have already downloaded this year anecdotally I meet people repeatedly who think I go to the global I should do the world group it's one thing I was going to and to use an enterprise for the future somehow not the right thing to do and we see large numbers of the companies deploying out of the global so you can capture no support they just put me brought us on machines so I think I think small steers kind of a huge impact but I think my point about then is I wonder whether we we went through the phase of enterprises believing that there should be to be supported and whether we narrow into a phase where enterprises are not convinced they need a help desk because users are because users are sub-supporting and deploying off the shelf software particularly in the user space where the software is not customized actually there isn't an address with marketer there's people it's not that they they're they're not spending the money with you and it's not that they are harming themselves by not spending money it's that actually they don't need to spend money and there's nothing that you can do that is going to make them spend money with anybody so it's hard to quantify my strong feeling and then actually positive stories like the entire world was in the story that they realized they should need some sort of actually productism that they need so they do them showtime over 200 phone calls to me over two years and me refusing to tell them we will develop that for free right have you considered a premium rate no I think it's absolutely fair what I've done is part of what everyone in the in the community should do so if someone calls you independent that is general order you say can you solve that for free and say no because if we do that for free for a long time for a longer period at the end you will not have anything for free not even the product so you should understand that the product is for free the basic but if you cannot be for free then you can discuss on the cost of support and that is a different story because you go into commercial but I can tell you that Generalis Ileo has poked me every night after his job at home on my mobile can you do that for free and me telling them no way unfortunately other people in the community telling them TDF should do that for free and this was not nice but I think that probably and thinking about that over the last few weeks is we probably have approached the entire situation in the right way when we have launched what we have not done we have not been thinking regularly on how to update our website and at the moment I think that our website it's not because it's free or it's outdated in terms of supporting the business model yes and I'm not blaming you I think that's been no no no we should have let's say that we should have paid more attention to that but at the moment we have to pay attention because for instance if we want to start serious fundraising and I showed our website to serious fundraisers they said no way the first the first image that they see they should find some something for themselves so I'm a single user I'm an enterprise I want to participate and this should be in the on-page so the first the on-page should divide people according to their interest and not try to catch anyone since I'm very worried that I did it wrong because that's unfortunately it was an Indian after you so we don't have the Indians because of the reason you really don't get more feedback that's the type and tomorrow when I will be talking about fundraising I will one of the first thing I say is that we cannot start serious fundraising now because we have to change our websites at least the on-page content can be the same but has to be looked down in in the tree for instance even the TDF website should be I'm a member I'm not a member and I'm a member is the actual website and we should tweak the pages for I'm not a member because I'm not a member I want to understand which are the advantages of being a member which are already in the pages but just to tweak the point of view so I completely agree and I think it's just about having at least an eye on how the ecosystem you know, how that flag is it's pretty good but I'm not going to in a way that's been a neutral objective you know, how do you grow your ecosystem no but I think when you when you spoke to me with your document I said we should have been more carefully thinking about the website and probably what we should do in the future is at least once a year have a kind of brainstorming about the website is it's still good or it has to be improved because it's five years old or four, five years old and this is too much for current timings and I think as you said Simon had a very, very helpful frame it's very similar I don't know but it's about when we started the draw we made a whole lot of decisions in this area but in perfect seconds for the time we have the giants some microsystems coming Oracle and also IBM trying to you know work very hard to make sure that this can be balanced and so on I think we're in a different situation now yeah by a hundred and twenty people different so you don't so we we succeeded wildly because you've got the number you had up there you have 1.5 million on your picture but at the point when the lead office was created they don't believe that the market was delivering that much money to develop I think the income that Simon and Oracle had had fallen to a level below that really? I don't believe that the amount of money that's read out and social receiving as a consequence from their investment is a less than that I believe that TF has created that market crisis and succeeded wildly and now seven years on what we need protecting from is not people who would stop us creating that market but people who would diminish that market and so the way we need to market ourselves is different we need to be we need to be encouraging and stimulating the growth of that market and helping people who are aggressive to invest in the product by being part of the community and so I wouldn't say we've failed oh no but I would say but I would say but I would say we have coasted to this yes we can succeed probably we should have paid more attention before to that but of course we were you know the fact that open office still exists oh yes gives us a bias anyway especially the people that were there since day one and know what happened yes because people that came in afterward when when people listen to me talking about open office and IBM says they should have done something really wrong back to you I said you're speaking this way and if you're not being if you're not being involved of course today you don't understand why well there there was a nasty tweet right along those lines so I just I just didn't want you to speak back I mean there's a lot of you in the businesses involved in the system I guess but anyone else would like to take questions Ron what do you think about what do you think you're happy I think it's the volunteers being threatened by the system sorry but after we hit the space that is not my empty and we'll do a counseling while you go but I hope you're fine so the reason I'm talking about the addressable market and whether there's actually any money out there for us to help get is I believe the market is in the process of changing yes I believe that the open office our office their competitor was Microsoft Office and always our thinking was in the context of being competitive with Microsoft Office I believe Microsoft has basically left the desktop market they obviously haven't in fact got nearly a billion people still using it but if you look at where they are if you look at where they're hitting sort of in ways it's not where it is because it's a nice way to go if you look at where the puck is going the puck is going to host at their stops it's going to online productivity integrating in both tools and I wonder whether we need whether we need to be asking a question about how we are going to enable our community to address that market as the market we're currently addressing diminishes and I wonder whether you have any thoughts yeah that's a really good question I think one of the problems is so can I rewind if you brought this online whatever it is it's not terribly easy to develop the form we see this in Android the Android space where the combination of a large C++ database and Java and a difficult build by a whole C++ database and Java script in the browser just in the largest and skill base you need I think human brains are all of a certain finite complexity size and we have a good experience on both sides but even so I don't feel like I'm a Java script myself I'm not an idiot and I'm sure there are many Java script people who also don't feel it's very common in C++ and they're not ideas either and so I think from a technology perspective it's quite quite difficult to find people that so we've done easy hacks and good sort of code things it's it's difficult so you I don't think the strategic thing there would be to reduce the cost or the difficulty of developing on that I think I'm really going to be in marketing terms thank you because so there's some different marketing strategies in that space yeah some some vendors are deciding that they will they will use fair use make fair use of the leader of this brand and collaboration has decided to create a separate brand and so then the question is you know what is the right way for us to help the emerging addressable market to find our community members yeah in that new gap I think that's that's really the question I suspect we don't want to answer that question no no no so you see again I think that you know marketing is very powerful so it's bringing needs and attention to people and I think that attention needs to be in some way related to investment so I think marketing is a very creative you know providing big links to them they don't find company but they haven't contributed much so I think we need to carefully balance in a factual and in a good way the presentation will take place and we should do that I think we've got already some links up to this and we're not I'll show you the name I'll say this we are in this TVF and we've obviously we're not even providing we've got this and maybe that makes it a bit similar to say you've got to go to somebody else and you want it you can't just get the quick cheap version to the most pretenders know or forget this in terms of support yes but possibly so it's just a second these will provide source I think instead of we do provide docker images or we can download those and we should I think if the market is this way you know we can get the investment right there will be more interest basically science and fact or any I think I see the problems and as we improve it and as we have the last year we've seen increased interest in it so as soon as there is you know money to be seen we everybody will be coming in I'm really optimistic about the future we do so much to invest in that in the system for the science research and strategic occupation yeah I was asking from from like the system is there any kind of system of treasure you have to consult yourself for that of course you would sell you wouldn't because you couldn't even sell it you would have a clean battle to just say you're something different people who should know what's different they will say that everyone else and maybe they are all money by doing almost nothing so let us take this guy's life then is it for me as I've discussed with several of you where the system integrators are are taking Microsoft taking their big much my taking 365 a billion historically there's less there's much less to do as a system integrator because or to convert people you can know their actual records how much money is it for the system integrators it's no future a lot less yeah it's a bleak future for the future but going forward it really draws the line if that's combined like Microsoft or whatever they can create a service that they can sell that they can market themselves and they can create the relevant that you would say like as a C companies are doing with these kind of products say here's your solution that is similar but but it's cheaper and so better and at the margin space that it isn't being changed because I already decided that Europe is more potential office as a all-translucent it's a market though it's a kind of way I want to just give you this question if he has a lot thank you thank you I think yeah a lot of good ideas but I thought I'm not going to say I'm giving just one two three four okay it was brilliant it was it was it was it was it was it was it was it was it was it was it was it was it was it was it was I'll be showing you why don't you you're right the biggest people provide everybody you're not having it's just the major phase if you're not involved in anything yes and there probably can be nothing to do and nothing to do okay you'll be at the top of the mutual pros so I think Linux runs on your Android phone your Android phone, it's called Android. Linux runs in a super computer in a store, trust of a NASA or something like that. But at the end of the day, these people do bring you something back, but I think you're right, we just need to encourage people to introduce you. And I think this all brings these to us. We can at least try and steer people the right way. Yeah, it's a good start, I think you care about one and one. And I'm sure that this is the first of the things you ever liked about it. Awesome, awesome, look at that. So you say, so that's a good sign of yourself as I'm kind of shifting back. We love you, we love you, we love you. Anyway, thank you for your time. You've been wonderful.