 Thank you everyone so much for coming to our second ever hybrid brain club where we are here on the Vermont Statehouse lawn and with you on zoom and Today, I am thrilled to introduce our guest presenter Matt Mulligan who is officially now on our board of directors here at all Brains belong Vermont and Do you do you like want me to talk about your background? Do you want to talk about your own background? What do you want to do? Okay, I can say what I know Matt is one of the coolest people I've ever met and And Great, I also forgot to introduce myself because there actually are some people on our Call who I've not met yet. I'm Mel Hauser I use she they pronouns and I am the executive director here at all Brains belong Vermont Anyway, Matt is one of the coolest people I've ever met and hi and Is a mental health therapist and a Has a really important set of life experiences that has informed his perspective on the environments that contribute to self-actualization and What we are going to have the opportunity to hear from Matt about today is a book that he wrote about About this theme and then I'm sure we will have or what will be a really important conversation With some panelists and and discussion from participants. So Matt, I'm gonna pass this to you And you're gonna move to the picnic table. Okay, cool. All right. I'm gonna read the book I would like to read my book and then I want to entertain questions How are we going to? Will you see the questions? Okay, come in or kind of once you're done reading. Yeah It's a it's a very short book So I won't be reading this book This this book is called tomatoes and peppers Inspired by an idea that popped into my head while I was driving to my internship about Who seven years ago? this book would not exist in any way without My best friend of many years Sonya Spalding she was the project manager and Basically made this book happen so You know a good Example of partnerships where people have different skill sets and work together to make things happen And I also wanted to give a shout out to Chen Fei Was is the illustrator of this book? originally from Beijing she lives here in central Vermont with her family and Her art added just the right Touch to the book. So I'm grateful for her contribution as well And now I'm gonna read the book So tomatoes and peppers a metaphorical tale for anyone who cares about kids The dedication I'll read that to to my mom and to Sonya who both played a huge part in the growth of this tomato Spring has arrived and it's time to plant your garden You go to the nursery and you pick out two seedlings a tomato plant and a pepper plant You plant them in good soil in a spot that will get lots of sun You keep a watering can nearby in case they need extra water You find a trowel to dig up any weeds that may pop up along the way Then your work is done Then you remember that you need a cage for the tomato plant Even though it's a seedling you can place the cage now to give it extra support. It needs as it grows Pepper plants don't need the extra support their limbs are stronger and their fruit is lighter You might need to stake it and then it will do fine Tomato plants, however, have skinnier limbs and heavier fruit And so without the right support the tomatoes will bend or even break the plant. They might grow in the dirt and spoil We provide different supports for each plant without a second thought Do we blame the tomato because it needs extra support to produce good fruit? Nope Do we question the character of the tomato plant because it needs more support as it grows? Nope, do we believe that there's something wrong with the tomato plant because it struggles to carry its heavier load? Nope, do we believe that there's something wrong with the tomato because it weighs the plant down? Nope We don't criticize the tomato plant for not being able to carry the load And we don't criticize the tomato for being too heavy We simply anticipate the need based on what we know about the tomato and the plant and Understand that if they end up in the dirt we are to blame We do not label it as different in some way and we do not blame the seed it grew from We don't blame the seed. We don't For the motorcycle. We don't blame the ground in which the seed grew We simply give it the supported needs On the counter in the kitchen you see a pepper and a tomato. You don't think twice about how they got there fully grown Their seedlings have the same potential with differing outcomes and different needs for support Our communities are filled with seedlings that become tomatoes and peppers Why can't we care for our children the way we care for these plants? Why can't we see our children in the same way? We see the tomato and pepper as they sit side by side. We need to Their potential growth are our work and with the right supports an abundant harvest our promise to keep and There is the book It's a it's a short book that's taken a lifetime and a master's degree to write It's a simple story. I think it tells an important story That will help It really it's not a book from four kids. It's a book on behalf of kids who who struggle in any way and the adults who are around them in helping roles and really What I hope this book can do is seamlessly and gently redefine all helping relationships From a strength-based point of view where Where we can all become strong Because equity allows us to succeed based on our merits and I you know, it's my hope that it makes the world a better place So thank you for listening Matt, thank you. Thank you so much. I'm wondering are there questions in the in the chat. Yeah. Oh Yeah Well before I have lots of questions for you But I also want to just first just thank you. I mean, I think that when we have conversations about Um Environments that like the goodness of fit between the environment and someone's needs like determining like how they do Sometimes no one has thought about that for humans, but like thinks about it all the time for gardening plants like Anyway, so I think it's genius. I think the analogy is genius and I I really really really appreciate that this I know that You maybe did you did you have you had questions? I was interested actually in hearing from you the science around The well-being of people who are neurodivergent I was interested in hearing from you Mel about You know the impacts on people You know my story is about creating a foundation for success but You know equity as I've learned across my life is not an easy request and I think it's because Equity doesn't necessarily counter what's illegal or blatantly wrong a request for equity challenges simply what is and And and when somebody seeks equity very often the systems around them Where there would be family schools employers the gamut a request for equity Becomes almost the fault of the person that's requesting it and Because it it Our brain is a is a simple Machine on some levels and one of the simplest things our brain struggles with is change and so any perceived change that That threatens what is Sends everybody on some level into that fight or flight and And it and it makes moving through the world more difficult and I think I said to you the other day that I wish You know, I've come to a point in my life where I understand that The strength I have has been realized because of the struggle I've moved through and I said wouldn't it be a nice world? If we could all develop that strength Because of equity based on our merits. I think there'd be a lot fewer, you know scars along the way and But the reality is that's not the world we live in and You know, I was hoping, you know, some of that science some of those statistics behind What people do experience as they move through a neurodivergent life in a normative world And I would you know, I was thinking that would be a nice way to support The notion that the book describes I can totally do that I'm gonna take the laptop and I'm gonna come back to the floor. I feel more grounded on the floor That's where I go. Okay. Here we go. All right Now I can see kind of okay so I Think what you're really referring to is when we think about how one and I guess I should sit here, so I'm like I'm trying to not turn my back to anyone in like three different directions, which is hard I can turn my back to the tree. Anyway, you know one in five people Thanks learns or communicates differently than the so-called typical brain even though like that's not really a thing And it's really just that there's like the assumption that there's a one-size-fits-all life even though there's not one type of brain like there's This infinite number of ways in which our brains do things but for these one in five people who like Whose brain significantly depart from this like the type of brain that society has deemed most desirable and that most things cater to like like The difficulty accessing everyday life is substantial and the the poor like let's even think about the the experience of a young child Who's play looks different than The so-called typical play and so play is the pursuit of joy Like only a person can decide what brings them joy and yet Many kids are given the message that their interests and that the things that give them joy is fundamentally flawed and broken and needs to be fixed and Then the messages that come from healthcare providers or mental, you know and and and including doctors mental health therapists all other kind of teachers like sometimes there are the Expected defaults of like What kids do? Well, you know, you're you know, you know, you're you're a big girl You know, you should be able to you should be able to do X right like as though As though there's a default brain you should be able to do things or that there are Like like things that are attributed to like laziness, but we're really talking about executive functioning differences This this this is common. So neurodivergent kids from very Early ages are getting the message that and and You know that that that we're effective over time that really takes a toll and when people are either Forced to hide their true selves to fit in or to not be found out Or any anything like that that takes its toll on mental health. So neurodivergent kids experience more bullying experience more anxiety and depression experience more Just everything More and here's just a trigger warning even in neurodivergent kids higher rates of suicidal thinking and Special when we think about the intersectionality of all of the different ways in which people are Marginalized and othered, you know, and we think about the you know, known relationship between neurodiversity and gender diversity and sexual orientation diversity like all of these Stack the deck of Invalidation and other ring it's trauma toxic trauma of Being made to feel like there's something broken about you and Then we make it to adulthood and let's see even when we're when we're even we're talking about when you think about autistic adults and the average life expectancy being aged 36 to 54 years and Not dying from autism, but dying from premature cardiovascular disease and suicide so Toxic chronic stress from growing up in a world that's not designed for you These are the consequences so The other thing I'll say is that risk of suicide and autistic adults is also This risk so it's nine times four four to nine times increased risk of suicide and autistic adults as compared to non-autistic adults and We're also thinking about the fact that those rates are higher in those with lower support needs which and and and separately research showing that Suicidal thinking and completed suicide highest in those with who've felt Pressure to mask and camouflage and hide their true selves. So really I think This is a really long-winded answer to your question, which is that The brain science is that there's no right way to be a person But yet there are messages from society that there is a right way to be a person and that this has an enormous toll on physical and mental health Oh, no, well, and I just have some observations from my own life That that, you know match up, but yes, what's the question? We have one question definitely lots of people saying what a wonderful book I love the analogy and how you build on it great message. Thank you Matt. The one question we have is Would Mike please share more about his metaphor regarding if we leave them in the dirt it is our fault Sure because Children depend on adults They you know the adult in the child's world is their beginning and their end it's their it's their their literal survival and Life I'm not I'm not here to blame Parents or schools I'm not here to say That it's somebody's fault What I am here to say is that So often when kids are challenged in some way The world around them tells them that something needs to be fixed And I'd like the question to To change and shift from what do we need to fix to what help can we give you? And And that's basically it, you know, I I understand I was born in 1971. I think Letted gas was still legal lawn darts were still a good idea Smoking might still have been healthy There was so much that people didn't know And and I was born with a long set of challenges. I was born at 28 weeks I caught bacterial meningitis I had a shunt put in when I was four months old. I've had a total of 30 surgeries in my life 19 of those neurosurgeries Five of those were two summers ago You know, I've been neuro divergent my whole life, but only was diagnosed with a learning disability at 40 And I got accommodations for that learning disability and I got a master's degree So, you know Potential is tied to support And but very often our brains operating the way they do You know, we see something that's not in the norm we see something that's different And part of our brain goes to that place of, you know, fight, flight, freeze or flock And it's easier in the world we live in to modify the child than it is the environment And so, you know, so much comes down to cost But when I you know when I talk about cost and I'm going to do something that I don't do very often I'm going to take off my glasses. These glasses, by the way, they don't help me see They they help balance my perception of of everything I experience and So I wanted to give a shout out to the Mind Eye Institute because they Do work that changes Neurodiverse people's lives every single day But I don't take my glasses off a lot because I I see them or I came to see them as a mask Something that would shield me From a world that's been commenting on what I look like or how my face is shaped for my entire life And, you know, that's when when we're talking about impacts on kids Things that are different draw our attention. It is it is absolutely natural and okay And it's part of the way we survived for millennia What I've come to understand that the the impulse to notice Is completely healthy and innocent What our brains then do with With what we notice Can be less than kind, you know, I've been I've been teaching people about Who I am in relation to my experience since I was very very small four or five years old getting asked by an adult In a grocery store, you know, what's wrong with your face? And I had to come up with an answer One of the most I guess Yeah, I learned a lot about myself in the moment. I was about 30 years old and I was Driving through Bethesda, Maryland and I just rescued an inch worm off my leg and deposited it safely on a on a branch and I got back in my car and I was driving and these kids probably, you know 18 19 years old they they stopped at a red light next to me and they rolled down their window and I thought Oh, they need directions or something. Well, too bad for them. I don't live here So I rolled down my window and I said can I help you and the kid said, yeah, tell me what's tell me what's wrong with your head And I said and I said to them Um, well, I was born this way. What's wrong with yours? and And then I then I drove To a side street and I parked my car and I cried Um, I was a grown man, but these messages have been coming to me and at me for my entire life And it's because I simply look different. Um, the thinking different. Um Was added on top of it, you know, I was 40 years old before I found out that I was Um that I could be a hard worker that I could achieve that I wasn't lazy that I wasn't Not smart. Um You know, those are the messages that the world sends to neurodivergent kids and We're focused on neurodivergence kids who are different in any way and you know, my my nickname in in first grade was egghead Um But I forgive kids because kids don't have any perspective in terms of their experience. Um Everything is new Everything is foreign. So when in a child's environment when something is out of the ordinary, man, they focus on it like a laser and um You know, this this is the life I've lived and and I've gotten to a point and I've done the work where I'm absolutely grateful for the experience because everything I've gone through has made me the person that I am And I like that guy. So these days I take off my glasses with a little more ease And uh, you know, I just like people to know that really just lead lead with what you value lead with kindness And when a kid comes to you And they can't explain what's happening in their experience and you can't understand it Don't think automatically that it's a problem with them Find somebody to give you another point of view on what what's happening for them and that way they can move through life Based on what they're good at and what they love and um, that's where all the Good parts of human development come from so um That's that's the bigger picture about this book And uh, you know, I just hope people get something from reading it seven-year-old who's listening who um said paraphrase this book is being about balancing a balancing act for brains because the tomatoes need something to climb like kids Have needs like they need to drink water That's amazing I love how kids think about things They think without rules they think without the boundaries that eventually get installed and um You know, it's why they're you know, some of my favorite people because um They're not yet aware of what people think isn't possible And uh, that's amazing My five-year-old Um, is whenever we watch a movie where there's a you know, a villain um Recently she shared Mama, I don't think that villain is a bad guy. I think they're just angsty Amazing right like um Or and and so, you know, we'll watch Cart you know cartoon characters like common everyday kids movies and comment like huh, um This is how this is and The the other characters are kind of judging in this way like kind of neutrally observing that this this is what goes on And luna will be like They shouldn't do that I know um So so it's it's it's really the younger That we can teach young kids that we all have different brains that Learn think and communicate differently You know even typically developing kids in my practice like I They'll say something and I I don't want them to think the way they do something is the default either So i'll say like, you know, they'll they'll make some comment like oh look what I did with this thing and i'll say Oh, isn't that interesting that your brain did this My brain thought about this and there was a kid this morning who thought about this other thing isn't that interesting we all have different brains because That that message like I didn't learn that until I was like 35 years old um And and and and really what what happens a lot When you don't so sometimes it comes up um where the family of a nerdy virgin child will say well, you know like I'm not I'm not gonna tell my kid about their brain. I was like, um Please tell your child about their brain like everyone needs to know about their brain um and it it's really when a child is not provided an explanation for What they are observing and the feedback they are receiving from the world they make one up and The narrative that a young child creates Is usually a narrative of like I'm broken. I'm defective. Um, and so The earlier that you know that that that anyone can learn about, you know, this This is how I'm wired and these are my access needs. This is what I need to participate in my world Um, I'm wondering um, and I can I can I can start with the folks here. Um like How how how is this message playing out in in your lives? What have you seen or thought about um um So you both kind of talked about the standards that we create to classify people as normal or abnormal um, which made me think about some of the tools that we have To screen people and you know identify kids who need more support um, so how do you balance identifying Kids and creating systems which which can put more supports in place for those kids without othering them That's a great question. I mean we are especially when we think about young kids and school for example, um in 2022 you Can't readily receive accommodations for your to achieve your access needs Without having some kind of diagnostic label like that is that yeah, because because really um universal design offering things in flexible multimodal ways like That would be preferable that that is supposed to be the gold standard But we don't have that and so right it is it is absolutely a balance um as far as um screening tools I think that The the screening tools that are out there for example, um, like if I just think about autism for example um, you know screening tools diagnostic criteria, they are based on stereotypes. They're based on um Autistic stress behaviors and so the more dysregulated someone is the more likely They are to receive an autism diagnosis. Um as opposed to recognizing like Modern-day brain science like knows so much more about autistic nervous systems know about monotropic attention systems of fewer things capping even in our interest at a time and doing some more intensely than other brains We know about sensory processing Asynchrony we we know about these things, but they're not even part of the criteria, but the stuff that's in there. They're stress behaviors um and that and and and Sorry, I have the kind of brain that when I hear motorcycles, even though they are nowhere near me They are they may as well be like the you know right in front of me. Anyway, by the way that language I have the kind of brain that x I use that all day long um and at first You know when I first started talking like that before I even knew I was autistic. Um like it it It felt funny to me but Very soon thereafter. I realized that It had no adverse consequences to me Like it was really just Oh, okay Um, and it's just like normalizing these conversations. Um, you know, I have the kind of brain that loud sounds are like really bothersome Or I have the kind of brain that you know fluorescent lights give me a migraine like these these kind of basic Sensory experiences turns out when you normalize talking about it People talk about it and it's not that bad um, you just it takes practice and when we can model that for little kids That goes a long way like when I hear a sweet little love like a patient of mine like using my I have a brain script like Oh my soul melts. It's just so magical because like they're gonna be okay um What was I saying before the motorcycle? In our culture of interdependence. See here is my external working memory Oh Yeah, right, right. Yeah. Yeah, I have the kind of brain that feels like somebody stabbing me in the brain with a screwdriver Right. Um, anyway, um, I think what I was talking about access needs anybody Oh, oh the stress beat. Oh, oh, yep. Thank you. That was super helpful. Thank you Um culture of interdependence and I would actually about that. Um, I think that for young kids Kids get the narrative that like independence Is so glorified as like the thing that you're striving for um, like like like as though it's bad to rely on other people right like that's Oh, like it just when you think about like the subtle yet profound messages that are sent like that is that's that's That's a big one. Um, oh, you know, um You're your ex-age, you know, you should be able to wipe yourself by now You should be able to sleep by yourself now. Like I'm a I'm a grown adult I really prefer to sleep with my husband. Like I don't like it's like at what point is it like That that you like get over wanting to sleep side by side with someone, you know, like So just just kind of normalizing that stuff too. Like we we all co-regulate with other humans um, but About the about about diagnostic criteria and stuff like in my practice um, most of the late identified neurodivergent adults, you know autistic gdhd dyspraxic like all the various neurodivergencies people present in chaos and crisis That is often the impetus to first do the like the start the process of coming to understand and learn about your brain So like wouldn't it be better that people could learn about their brains with Outreaching chaos and crisis like that would be I think we'd have Like a way better way more comfortable world Um, but but but but often late identified um, or late diagnosed autistic adults, for example, um present in something called autistic burnout, which is a Profoundly dopamine deficient state with an implosion of executive functioning It's like the consequences of being profoundly dysregulated and losing the ability to mask which is a a significant cognitive load um, that really takes its toll on a nervous system And that's often how how how people Get their autism diagnosis and it's certainly how I got mine There's a question. There's a comment in the chat. I've started using that terminology regularly too I have the kind of brain etc. It's empowering although. I think I'm speaking Klingon to everyone around me even well informed and caring Um, and that just don't get it no matter the explanation. Yeah, I think it's just practice I think it's just yeah, so you know, thanks for thanks thanks for naming that um, but but I I think it is just just practice and um And a lot of it, you know, I I I definitely can say that um, I I have it's a privilege that I live in a world where I I I have all social capital I have autonomy. I did have to quit my job to achieve that. Um, but like that that is Something that when you don't have that it ends up not always being safe to show up as your true self and like just to To name that and honor that like your limbic system decides when it's safe to do something um, but what I what I what I would also say is that um, uh neurodivergent kids Um often um not not always because we you know, it's it's certainly not a homogenous group But but many times those with um, sensitive Neuroception systems so threat detection systems um often kids who don't feel safe in certain situations and name that to their grown-ups Are often invalidated are met with oh, you know, be a big boy. You can go do the thing or what are you talking about? It's fine. Go do the thing. Um, so and then why are we surprised when kids lose The ability to trust their intuition So we have adults that feel unsafe and end up in relationships or situations that are unsafe um, you know Objectively subjectively what are there is it's not safe and don't trust themselves to leave um because got messages that like you know your interpretation of reality is not valid I wonder if anyone in zoom world has any questions. Oh, there is a question Yeah, sure. Go ahead. Um, we have another question Given that most educators would completely agree with the message of mike's book What's to explain the gap between them and students getting what they need in school and other social services? Here's one example of which I am most familiar Half of students read below grade level, but only a small percentage I'm scrolling Sorry about that. Um, only a small percentage receives specialized services and oftentimes these services do not actually lead to learning gains What are the disconnects? And we also have a question. Where's the best place to buy a copy of your book mat? A link is going in the chat Um, it's book, baby Um So school is a is an incredibly complex environment. I worked as a pair educator at berry city elementary for Five years while I was in my master's program, which took me six years, which is twice the normal length Um, but it makes sense because most accommodations that are given involve increased time and um You know I um Teaching is one of the hardest jobs. There is um the convergence of of you know, social pressures and and everything else and and every child Comes from a different experience and then they walk into this environment that is supposed to teach them and um Um, you know that so the question about kids and their their different reading levels you know, um The thing that I saw um Working most effectively and I think all the best science around education Talks about this right now. It's sort of the I won't say sort of it is the hot topic, but that the um The best indicator of um positive outcomes in educational settings is the relationship between the helper And the child being helped whether it's a teacher whether it's a pair educator um Um or any school staff and so you know because through education um, we learn um about You know with the relationship we learn about each other and and in that learning Um, you know, maybe maybe the gaps are uh more exposed But at the same time I also admit if you've got 25 children in your classroom You know, how are you supposed to do that? So, you know, I think this is just part of an ongoing conversation um, and it's interesting to me that the um the science around psychology and education You know, that is the place they agree the the um largest indicator of any positive outcome Is the relationship between the therapist and the client or the um the helper and the child being helped In school. So, you know, I would just go toward doing Everybody doing their best to deepen those relationships. Um, because that's where that's where struggle can be identified And um, and the strength that comes along with it. Um can be seen too I would also say um, because I don't think I could make it through a brain club without saying this um But there's also a lot of brain rules in all systems so like um Uh for those who've not not heard me um talk about that term before um, so like Brain rule a thing that we think is a universal life truth But we really made it up or someone else made it up And then we were like someone who trained us made it up or the someone who trained The person who trained the person who trained us made it up. Anyway, it's still not a world rule like a law of physics or something um, so Sorry, it was the motorcycle thing again. Um, but like a brain rule like Well, um Oops, did did zoom just crash that I just lose zoom Something just happened. Yep All right, hang on. Oh, that's great. Then I'll just talk. I don't need my zoom. Great. Um, okay. Um, thank you. Um, so One uh, uh, maybe that's four months ago. I went to one of my patients IEP meetings and um The the the topic came up that you know, so and so is unable to um, you know It's not motivated because they like can't they think they just can't do the work um, and I found myself wondering like what was the work was it being delivered in a way that worked for the kid's brain? Did they understand how are the directions of the assignment given? um Where was that in a way that worked for the kid's brain? Like it's just the the there's the brain rules of like well well kids You should just tell them what to do and they should do the thing as opposed to recognizing that You know, if you have the kind of brain that is taking in so much extra information um, you you It's it can it can be very hard to auditorily process information um sequence the steps retained in working memory and then like anyway and and oh and by the way like something some some other competing stimuli, you know just came into my awareness and and so just As though there was one way to do a thing and that there's anyway these there's a lot of a lot of brain rules um or um, you know, uh, you know So and so should be able to shoot anytime that we hear like so and so should be able to do something that is almost always a brain rule um Because that's again the assumption that there's one right type of brain A cool example from my own life and again, uh, not anybody's fault, but um, I just recently discovered that i'm cross dominant Um, I always knew that I was but I never knew the name for it and it means that I write with my left hand and I um like play tennis, uh, right-handed sports different things like that and um, I can't write with my right hand When I was a kid kindergarten, I remember this is my first encounter with with the world that, you know, didn't understand me and I I wrote with my left hand. So in kindergarten, they gave me left-handed scissors, which I couldn't use to save my life And I remember going to the meeting with my parents With my mother, I think and we sat there and we talked with the teacher and it was a real concern that I couldn't cut a straight line um Nobody nobody thought to give me right-handed scissors, but when I had the scissors, um I don't cut a great straight line But I did way better uh with my right hand than I did with my left And so, you know, again, you know a problem is identified The brain, uh goes to that fight or flight, you know, oh, we've got to figure this out and um You know if I'd gotten the right handed the right hand scissors, um, there wouldn't have been a problem to begin with Any questions from anyone here at the state house? I think mel already answered but just to verbalize it. Um The question is do you see this metaphor applying any differently to adults? I teach college age students and this feels just as relevant to that age group as in childhood It feels like the same message across the lifespan and mel said Oh abs absolutely. Um, I I would say that, you know, like as a as a I teach medical students and when I think about just the The ableism like I you know, this is this is something that no one Talked about in in my training and that like I am super guilty of Of all of the things that were like attributed to lack of motivation self-direction Sloppiness like all the stuff that was is really just about needing supports for executive functioning or um, uh, you know Step steps for motor planning like all these things that are are just really not not talked about um, and in the chat, um Thank you, shana Um, so so so helpful and new to me to think about the fight or flight reaction in the teacher provider caregiver Oh that yes Um, so, you know, it co regulation or co dys regulation is it happens all the all the time You know, it's happening in our in our homes It's happening in the classroom between, you know teacher and student and student and student and like all the ways in which nervous systems interact and And especially if you know when I think about brain rules like brain rules and if if if if um if you want to go back and Find the when did I do that march brain rules world rules? Yeah, maybe a march brain club on brain rules and world rules like we think about Brain rules are a are cognitive self regulation I have so many brain rules and I make them up to make my world make sense Um, so like a you know quick example would be like it's a you know, we can't eat tomato sauce on the white carpet Brain rule not a world rule, but like it's a brain rule that makes my world more orderly So a lot of the brain rule is in a classroom if you've got 30 kids with conflicting access needs So like we need to sit in our chairs. That's a brain rule, but like It's trying to resolve chaos and it's still a brain rule. What do you want to say? No, no, I was just I was smiling at the um, and I don't remember what I was just saying Well, well to tooth maybe like I don't know how many thoughts happened in between But if you want to say something about applying to older learners like young adult and adult learners I think that's you started talking and then I interrupted. No, I mean, you know, those those stories I've got those stories too. I in um in undergrad I failed I don't know before I failed like three different foreign languages five different times and because it was it was small pieces being added onto um, uh Larger pieces which were the other part of the words and my brain just couldn't do it And I remember latin was my a special my special nemesis and I remember sitting there and and I was You know 20 and my latin professor just looked at me and just was like, why can't you learn this? And because latin Um, I think from a from a normative standpoint is is a learner's dream because it's all on a grid and um, so but my brain just doesn't do that and that was 1993ish So, you know, um, there's still more work to do to um to help people feel comfortable in their efforts um to learn about their world and and I like to think about um lev vagotsky. Um, I can't remember He was alive maybe in the 1800s, but uh, um a russian uh psychologist and he developed a Scaffolding theory on education where where the adults in the in the learning environment Their job was to help children move From what they know to what they're about to know And um, and I think that overall that connection that that scaffold that ladder that assistance Um Is is a a good place. Um And this I think applies to any system where well Every system uh has moments where learning occurs And if we can broaden the notion of what learning looks like Um, maybe it will feel differently for those people who need it most um It also makes me think about how um as a as a parent I've had a had to unlearn like a lot of brain rules about what it means to be a parent also and like what it's gonna look like and I Like I thought I would have A five and a half year old who would like Be going to a school And that's not what's happening because that is not what her limbic system Has decided is safe for her right now And oops, hold on Laura got bumped back on um, and so like Matt what you said about like Like recognizing all of the places in which learning takes place is really Really important Um, oh Um, it looks like I'm I've I'm frozen, but am I like I don't expect it um, so My five year old I thought that I would have Um, you know, I'd be the parent of a kindergartner who attended kindergarten in a in a school But that's not the child that I have the child I have um Needs autonomy at all times and when You tell her what to do She has a limbic response. It's automatic. It's involuntary It it just is um, and so What she needs is different and so earlier um pre pre tech situation matt made the comment about um How learning can take place in all different settings and like is happening in every day to day life um, and like that's That's What unschooling is for us, um Like today we um, we we we went out. We had a snack. We had um, we had we were we were discussing like We were doing like content analysis of disney movies and like talking about keys to the universe and then like We ended up having this like really interesting historical conversation about Marsha p Johnson and like all of this stuff that like I never thought I would teach my Five-year-old even like it was it was way cooler than anything. I think she would have learned at a school so anyway brain rules and get all Comes down to like deciding which ones are helpful And replacing the ones that are not Anyway, thank you matt. Thank you so much um, and and um when I send out the recording I'll also send a link out to your book because I think that you know we Speaking of brain rules like people don't like to have their brain rules challenged So when you share a a disarming metaphor about something so Like irrefutable like it it I think really makes a The point I don't know if if in zoomland, um, if you could hear matt's comment Did you hear did you hear the comment about the tomatoes matt said that some people tell him that he grows That they grow their tomatoes without cages And I'm not a gardener so I don't even know that is that like a sacrilege to do. Yeah, I don't know either anyway I grow I like I I just kill all my vegetables because I don't take care of their environments. Anyway, thank you all so much for coming and um next week at brain club Neuro diversity and employment Um, we are going to have a variety of panelists next week Because because on past brain clubs, we've had a lot of Neurodivergent folks talking about their experiences with employment. What's work? What's not work? We're going to hear from employers next week of Of what the process of um learning about neurodiversity and access has has has been for them. So Uh, thank you all and I hope to see you next week