 Sorry, of course, nothing good starts without a mute on when you're on Zoom. So thank you everyone. Hello and welcome to this public knowledge webinar on the importance of classifying facilities-based interconnected VoIP as title 2 and why that has become critically important now that we are seeing the beginning of widespread retirement of traditional copper systems by the incumbent local exchange carriers and to summarize the Commission has actually been thinking about this and trying to figure this out since 2004 at that time the Commission was confronted by a petition asking it to classify this voice over IP services or VoIP and the Commission did what it frequently does in these situations and hedged the Commission was able to say well, okay services like the one we're on now Zoom, which don't use public telephone or the standard telephone numbers and just use user names and ride over the top of the Internet and you need a broadband connection for those those VoIP services are Information services and that was a pretty straightforward and easy call Then the next question was services like Vonage what the Commission decided to call nomadic VoIP or the growing number of at that time growing number of cable operators and other carriers who were offering not traditional circuit switch telephone Using TDM, but we're beginning to offer a managed Interconnected voice over IP service, which was indistinguishable from traditional phone service it was in fact marketed to consumers as This is your phone service. You can bring your phone number to it Use us instead of the telephone company for your landline needs while you're still using a landline Which I will point out many people still do because many of us still need one the this Interconnected VoIP both nomadic and Facilities based The Commission decided they didn't want to answer that question right away. So instead what they said is we are gonna Leave this in limbo We're going to instead say that when we have to deal with these Interconnected VoIP services We are going to Regulate them either as title to if we in fact decide someday that they are titled to services or through our Ancillary authority. What is ancillary authority? Well, the Commission has General jurisdiction over all communications by wire and wireless From the first Part of the communications act what we call title one and the Commission has authority to Regulate entities that are communications if that is necessary for it to fulfill its other Statutory duties, which is the important hook here You can't just say well, you're an information service and you're involved with communication So I get to regulate you as the DC circuit has said ancillary Jurisdiction must be ancillary to something. So for a long time. This was very easy facilities based VoIP was ancillary to Traditional telephone service what we sometimes call the public switched telephone Network because that's the one that the public uses and that's how everybody communicates with each other and This which we call the PSTN or sometimes just the public switch network the PSN Was still the primary communications network and For a long time this didn't raise too many questions, but then VoIP and facilities based VoIP and began to displace and has now Displaced traditional legacy copper line TDM for those who are familiar with it voice service as the dominant form of service that and wireless Why is wireless important here? Well wireless is very interesting because the voice component of your mobile service The part that is the phone is a Title to service to the extent that it plugs into the PSTN. That's the definition in the statute and the Commission has been was clear in the Restoring internet freedom order in 2017 along the way of repealing net neutrality They also said we are not expanding the definition of PSN to include IP addresses PSN interconnected with the public switch network means The 1994 style telephone network Does not mean necessarily VoIP does not mean anything that's IP based To qualify as a title to mobile service. It has to be interconnected with the public switched network so as the public switch network the traditional Public switch network fades away We start to have a real problem here because the Commission has said SMS text messaging is not a title to service Okay, then it has also said that broadband is not a title to service. Okay, so where does the Commission's authority? come from for the Remaining regulations and people like oh, well, there aren't any well there turn out to be a lot that we depend on Network reliability and resiliency the fact that you have to report your outages to the disaster reporting service the fact that you have to You know participate in Certain types of Commission rules such as truth and billing or that Voice communications are protected by very strict privacy rules the CP and I rules that protect The metadata as well as the actual content of the voice convert discussion in ways that internet and other non telecommunication services are not Protected and you know this goes on 9-1-1 is a You know what a telephone Obligation we have we have a bunch of these that we will talk about But these are all dependent on the rapidly fading Traditional legacy network So the Commission this is not a surprise the Commission has been planning for this since 2010 when it was first raised in the National broadband plan we spent a good deal of time after Hurricane Sandy Talking about this and looking at what's gonna happen as these Networks are retired and again the Commission decided to hedge and they said well We're not gonna make a decision about whether this interconnected VoIP is titled to but instead We're gonna rely on the fact that you can't turn off traditional TDM without permission from the Commission and We'll use that as a hook to make sure that everything works out. Okay, of course The Pi FCC rolled back the vast majority of those rules as well, but so now we are proceeding with the phase out of these Traditional legacy networks, which are the entire basis of the FCC's authority over communications infrastructure in this country at this point And we don't have an answer so we've Tackled this in some ways piecemeal. We've had some workarounds, but all of these work workarounds Depend either on Congress having passed some special legislation So for example when we had the problem of rural call completion Congress passed legislation, which again didn't decide the status of the service. They just said well for any kind of advanced Telephone service, you know any kind of voice service, you know the Commission can make sure that those calls get terminated but as More and more of these problems come up it becomes harder and more complicated for Congress to do these piecemeal and it becomes Less and less feasible for the FCC to use ancillary jurisdiction to regulate interconnected VoIP without an actual underlying 1990s style public switch telephone network, which provides the basis of the authority This past winter AT&T announced that they were kicking their efforts to retire their copper footprint into high gear And that as part of this retirement up to five million people in rural areas were Would no longer have a wire line option, they would be entirely dependent upon Rural cellular and as frankly those of us who have dealt with these issues for many years. No, and certainly those who live in rural areas, no Rural call quality is not necessarily That you know comparable to landline quality in fact in some places it's virtually non-existent so We are a country that is now actually moving backwards in terms of telephone penetration from nearly 100% Penetration to some number that will end up being significantly lower than that so What's the solution? well either we can Prevent people from retiring the copper network so we can have a permanent 1990s style PSTN on which the Commission can base its authority which Nobody wants and certainly nobody on this panel wants or We can answer the question that the Commission has been refusing to answer for more than 15 years If it looks like a phone and acts like a phone and uses your old Telephone equipment like a phone and uses your phone numbers like a phone Shouldn't we just call it a phone? So that's what brings us here today And that is why we filed a petition asking the Commission in March to finally decide that question because Frankly the time to decide this is running out as we will discuss there are already problems that are emerging From the Commission's paralysis on this issue There is a real confusion in The states because of contrary decisions in the federal court one in the 8th circuit one in the 9th circuit as to whether The FCC is refusal to classify VoIP one way or the other has De facto preempted the states from regulating it as a voice service So even the states may not be able to take up the slack and protect their their customers and also the impacts on network reliability as our networks are falling apart around us and on competition where the Barriers that are put in place because we have not you know as part of the 96 act. We did a lot to make competition possible those rules don't apply to Interconnected VoIP service and unsurprisingly the Dominant carriers are not interested in helping their competitors by Applying the rules that support competition voluntarily In an unregulated market. So with that, let me introduce our panelists who will be able to discuss these issues first we have Olivia Wine who is a Yeah Been the representative for the National Consumer Law Center as I have said, we've both been at this for more years than either of us would care to admit and She is also on the board of the Usac the Government corporation which manages the universal service fund We have with us also Brian Thorn who is with communications workers of America Obviously the people who Physically build and maintain the networks and are therefore well aware of the the problems with reliability and where the unregulated networks have been falling apart and With me also is Sana shake She is with granite Communications, they are a competing local exchange carrier or select who can speak to the competition Problems that we are already seeing emerge Due to lack of FCC oversight. So Olivia, let me start with you What does all this mean for consumers the day that the last copper? System is rolled up and retired and the FCC hasn't done anything What does that mean for people in their phone bill? Okay, first off. I thanks Harold for the introduction. I do need to clarify so Olivia Wine staff attorney at the National Consumer Law Center I am also a board member of the Universal Service Administrative Company Usac But I'm not authorized to speak on behalf of USAC or the USAC Board of Directors I'm here solely in my capacity as a staff attorney at the National Consumer Law Center and then now back to Harold's question What would this mean? Well, it's it really is like an a lack of certainty a lack of a you know a strong regulatory, you know clarity And then probably what it means is uneven consumer protection depending on which state you live in Because it it will get patchworky for a while while workarounds and other ways to try and address particular one-off situations arise, but What is housed in title two right now? For consumers is as Harold mentioned, you know, there's strong privacy protections about your billing information That is your CP and I protections and they're very very strong I think consumers would be very sad to see that go another thing that's there is the ability Of the Commission to do rule makings like the truth in billing rulemaking Consumers can easily be Slammed or crammed if they don't understand their bills. It's really important to have clear regulatory authority So that we're not in the oh, please don't do that. Oh, you can't make me Who made you the boss of me? Oh, please. Please don't do that Design your bills this way. So so when we're in that situation, we're clearly in a weaker consumer protection Framework another thing that I think consumers will see is When you look at the playing field who they can choose their service from so I'm hoping that Sana will get into the competitive piece of this but also that universal Ubiquitous affordable reliable phone service consumers right now Probably aren't aware of the underlying technology when they're picking up what they have known all along is their phone and They're dialing a phone number to connect with somebody, you know, as Harold said it looks like a phone It acts like a phone. It is your phone. This is voice service. This is traditional voice service All of those expectations and protections with that voice service shouldn't depend on You know some very very detailed archaic You know architecture of the underlying mechanism for delivering that phone call Universal service is embedded in title 2 and this was really important to ensure that all consumers everywhere Had access to voice service During emergencies, you need voice service staying connected to friends and family is critical You know calling a hotline to figure out more information How you get benefits or if something bad has happened like a natural disaster in an area, you know, where to go Where are the centers to go to get help? What happens after a disaster like how that Communications infrastructure is rebuilt is really these are important questions But underlying it all is that knowledge that there's firm regulatory footing for strong state and federal regulation Versus, you know a framework, which will potentially be patchwork ad hoc Workarounds and very issue specific workarounds that will differ depending on the type of protection. We're talking about so You know, I guess maybe the short answer is the easy way out of this is the reclassification of the interconnected VoIP As title 2 or not reclass just clear classification. Let's declare it. Let's treat voices voice. I Will have a caveat later when we get to you know talking about nomadic voice and TCPA, which I like to let's get that out of the way now because I want to emphasize for everyone just how narrow This is just how light the lift is for the FCC because this tends to get blown out of proportion By opponents say, oh, you're gonna, you know impose all these 1934 monopoly regulations on zoom or or Vonage and you know and no We're not asking about This service which has already been classified as an information service We're not even asking about Vonage, which is enough different from The traditional facilities based voice service to be a different question We are just asking about that thing that's connected to your wall the facilities based phone service and we're just asking the FCC to say that a phone is a phone, but Olivia, I know you want to explain why that's an important distinction now with regard to robo calls. Oh, right the nomadic VoIP providers are The ones that tend to well They're the ones that are sending the fraudulent will tend to be the ones sending the fraudulent calls to voice subscribers in the US and so They are nomadic the non-facilities base. They rely on just, you know riding on top of the broadband to connect They A lot because If they are outside of title to there are some current Activities there's current litigation in a couple of the states with state attorneys general using other laws unfair state unfair deceptive acts and practices laws as well as I'm sorry, yeah, I'm just falling off base. Anyway, they That needs to stay outside of the title to realm to move forward We just need all the tools in our tool belt to fight the robo calls Which is the color I said authentication issue is different Which is an aspect of the robo calls problem, which would be covered in this a phone is a phone is a phone But the nomadic It is going to be treated differently It's more complicated exactly is more complicated. They don't have their own voice delivery network Through which they serve their subscribers these nomadic providers rely on Another company's broadband internet service to perpetuate, you know, their fraudulent activities So we just want to just be clear that that's outside of the scope of this very narrow ask We are focused here today to talk about the interconnected Voip right sweep away all the potential distractions, you know get away from all of these You know possible complications we can deal with that another day, you know to preserve the FCC's authority over our National communications Network we need the FCC to just do one little thing say that a phone is a phone And with that let me turn to Brian To talk about the the importance of this to network reliability and network resiliency Yeah, thank you Harold for the question and thank you to PK for inviting CWA's perspective You know, as you know, one of the Commission's core Responsibilities is promoting public safety through communications technologies and ensuring a reliable and resilient communications network including one that can withstand Natural disasters and emergencies However, once traditional phone service is phased out The Commission's authority over Voip will be questionable because the agency will no longer have the ancillary authority Which you Harold talked about earlier This will prevent the Commission from amongst other things ensuring that phones work during emergencies by By mandating that carriers work together to cover each other's traffic But also by requiring providers to replace discontinued and destroyed networks With networks that are at least as good or better than what was previously there So in other words failing to classify Voip services title to will result in a crisis of authority that will leave the Commission unable to safeguard the public and Ensure a reliable and resilient communications infrastructure and we're already starting to see some of the trouble of this right when the Commission sought to impose mandatory backup requirements on wireless services Pursuant to its ancillary authority in the wake of Hurricane Katrina The Commission faced strong resistance from the DC circuit and ultimately abandoned the effort and When you don't have meaningful requirements Companies won't restore service in a timely manner and our members have seen this on the ground. So for an example This was an issue in Florida in the aftermath of Hurricane Michael in 2018 and based on interviews with CWA members It appeared that unity which is a Verizon wireless subcontractor, which opens up a whole other realm of issues This company had relatively few employees in-house and was not able to quickly deploy a high number of restoration crew personnel One AT&T technician technician who was on the ground Stated that he did not see unity linemen placing fiber until seven or ten days after the sort after the storm If this pace this pace if true is unacceptable And it's what will happen more and more frequently absent FCC authority to put in place meaningful requirements Yes, and just again to remind folks we're talking about This impacting wireless networks as well because the title to definition for the voice component of Mobile services is dependent on interconnection with this public switch network That goes away then while there is some authority through title three over Wireless providers the Commission will not be able to treat them as common carriers And therefore many of the protections that we take for granted it will in wireless phones will disappear as well So saying just let's all switch to wireless isn't going to solve the network reliability problem And isn't going to address a lot of these problems. So in fact, let me now turn now to what sauna You represent a A select that serves rural America as well as urban America Why is Competition so important here and how does title to make that competition possible Absolutely first off. Thank you Harold and public knowledge for hosting this webinar is really important topic I'm glad there's a lot of attention on it and hopefully this is going to press the Commission to Classify VoIP as a title to talk communication service sooner rather than later. I think that's direction that we're headed in So for those of you that aren't familiar with granted granted is a telecommunications carrier based out of Tennessee, Massachusetts We provide communication solutions for businesses and government agencies not Consumers directly but consume consumers and in that way through those businesses throughout the United States and Canada We started in 2002 as an aggregator of plain old telephone services nationwide with one priority in mind the customer That's our focus. What does the customer need? What does the customer want and how can we get that over to the customer today? We service over two million voice and data line to large and small businesses and government agencies ranging from that mom-and-pop pizza shop All the way to the United States postal service We've become a leader in phone service But we've also extended that unique value proposition of one company one contact one bill to include a range of other business Communication services including internet access sd. When wireless when Hosted sip trunking mobile voice and data again focusing on what the customers want and to answer your question Harold What do customers want they want competition? Why do they want competition? Competition gives them affordability in services competition gives them a superior customer service competition gives them Options it gives them choices. Nobody wants to be told. Hey, your only provider is let's say Comcast That's the only person you can choose. They can Comcast can then go ahead and they can price dodge. They can Limit their customer service. They can really hurt a business if they're not focusing on at least what granted focusing on Which is the customer competition allows and makes that available. So how to how does title to provide? Competition so we've covered this a little bit But I'll kind of go into a little bit more the protections under section 251 So currently the FCC has jurisdiction and authority to regulate interconnection between carriers under section 251 So this means that the FCC is required to enforce a carrier's duty to provide another Carrier with interconnection to that carrier's network for the transmission routing of telephone calls with at least equal Quality at rates terms and conditions that are just reasonable and non-discriminatory Those protections are important This only right now applies to traditional telecommunication services under title to so these are usually those telephone lines that are operating over copper Infrastructure, but over the last few years granted for example in the last year We've seen 20,000 pipelines pop up we service now Hundreds of thousands of pipelines because that's what our businesses want that's where the technologies had it especially with copper retirement However, despite the fact that copper voice and VoIP are newly identical in the eyes of consumer The FCC has failed to classify VoIP as a telecommunication service So this limits the FCC's ability to enforce the interconnection obligations to VoIP carriers that can lead to a host of problems These include technical problems which can impact service quality This can include competition problems stemming from the lack of regulations to ensure affordable access to the network for competitive carriers And this can include issues with legal and regulatory authority Which others have spoken to including the CP and I rules and network-gathered reporting rules and USF contributions Interconnection has always really been the hallmark of competition. It's based on the founding principles of free trade and multi-network options Historically it was actually the lack of interconnection that led to the 100 year AT&T monopoly in today Because large incumbents can treat VoIP differently than other communication services We are seeing confusing and inefficient practices in the marketplace Issues that have generally just led to higher prices and market power in negotiations with smaller competitive providers such as Granite It's really important for us to learn from our history so we can avoid repeating it By partisan competition laws put in place in the 90s helped to launch a tech and telecom revolution We've brought millions of jobs in trillions and investments companies like granite They wouldn't exist if not for smart competition laws Competition brings innovation and granite has developed and deployed the innovation for one-stop-shop services helped many businesses From fortune 500 companies, card dealerships, banks, schools, small businesses to grow and expand nationwide Harold I think I'm you. Thank you. And you know, we haven't even touched on some of the more technical things like Poll attachments, which is so critically important But you have to be either a cable service or a telecommunication service to get access to those necessary utility poles So if you're not if they're if that doesn't exist anymore, then you know, there's no Access for you But just to drill down on one of the things that that you mentioned in passing But that is critically important to so many people is universal service In 1996 Congress included this provision in the Telecommunications Act which Created the formal universal service fund that we have today and They made it clear that that was for telecommunications and telecommunication services so We've seen what happens when one service text messaging goes from assumed to be titled to where they make contribution to disputed over whether it's titled to where some people make contribution and some people don't to Definitely not titled to and now nobody makes text message contribution anymore. So Olivia acknowledging of course that the FCC by its ancillary authority added facilities-based VoIP to To what the universal service fund contribution if All of the legacy you know wires go away and there's nothing that this VoIP is ancillary to and therefore that requirement also disappears What happens? I mean, is there anybody paying into the universal service fund anymore? Oh well this I'm sure that there will be a Workaround Devise I'm tempted to work around who knows that a workaround. Yeah, it It is destabilizing to have regulatory uncertainty here Yeah, I mean the the the short answer is that you know We don't know we hope everything turns out okay on a Service on which millions of people rely for a basic need is Not exactly a happy way to live and the to imagine that You know, well, we will quickly come up with such a workaround that nobody will challenge this and everything will work out Just fine is you know Possible I suppose but let's face it. That's not the way anybody would want to bet So, you know, we're we're looking at a fund that is already having enormous difficulties And of course on the flip side if there's no telecommunication service to fund Then what happens there? I mean, you know, we saw this with the broadband where You know the Commission tried to do some hand-waving when they repealed the title to classification of broadband and You know, the court said no, you can't hand-wave that you have to make a decision So, you know, I think You know destabilizing is probably a polite word for For what we'd be seeing but Brian Let me ask you part of the This is the high-cost fund now repurposed as our doff which is a part of You know the USF structure, but What kind of shape our networks in now particularly those in rural networks and what can we expect to see going forward as These traditional legacy networks are retired Yeah, that's a really important question As traditional legacy networks are retired, of course, the FCC will lose its authority Because the FCC's authority as we've mentioned relies on those old networks And so as you mentioned, there's been some really aggressive activity recently by all carriers, but AT&T included as well as Lumen CWA members call it retiring in place RIP But then there's also official retirement under section 214 So not only will this leave people without a reliable alternative, but as I've mentioned it will get rid of FCC authority and so the real risk here I think is that the FCC without that authority cannot ensure customers have good alternatives once these the Technologies in the rural locations are retired and I want to provide a really stark example here Lumen submitted an application to the FCC to discontinue Legacy voice service on Little Gas Barilla Island, which is a small seven mile long island on the Gulf side of Florida And according to Lumen only 26 customers subscribe to the phone service there. There's no broadband But there was no other wire line provider on the island So Lumen would have left these customers without an adequate alternative landline product, which is a really frightening thing And as we know in the wake of tropical storms these landlines provide More dependability than does cellular service So the copper retirement there would have had a really important impact on on the residents of this island Fortunately after objections were raised including by PK Lumen withdrew the application But this just underscores why we need titled to classification so badly so that the FCC Can ensure customers have good alternatives to current technologies And since all existing phone regulation governing universal service consumer protection and competition rest on the existing copper network Once that network goes away as it is beginning to in rural locations as you mentioned So too will the regulation protecting these customers So well, you know, we're talking about a lot of potential problems here particularly in rural areas But problems for everybody You know what sonna one of the things that I know is happening now is that The incumbent providers will not negotiate Digital interconnection because they don't have to and we've seen filed at the FCC That this is Preventing the implementation of shaken stirred the anti spoofing protocol Because in order to get a phone call through You have to go up to the the old TDM legacy interconnection gate point downgrade your Signal from a digital signal to a TDM based signal and in doing so that that breaks the The shaken stirred so that it just doesn't work So but in addition to that I understand that it also imposes tremendous costs Can you tell us about how just from a cost perspective? this You know interconnection is one of the most basic things in telecommunications one of the the primary purposes for which the FCC was established refusal for interconnection was You know was something that Created the AT&T Monopoly back in the beginning of the 20th century The FCC seems to think that the market will just provide for digital interconnection has it That's a great question So historically going back to your point right now the way that granted operates in the way that a lot of competitive local exchange Carriers operate is that we have wholesale agreements in place with incumbent local exchange carriers because they're required to by the code by the law to Provide these services to granted and to other selects at wholesale rates in order to create competition in order to give businesses and consumers options and Currently that protection does not apply to VoIP providers. It does not apply to Broadband providers internet providers. So currently VoIP service providers They can provide competitive service packages by relying on regulations that allow them to obtain reasonably priced wholesale TDM based services from incumbent local exchange carriers these Regulations are tied to the traditional TDM based copper loops And there's just no equivalent of those types of regulations on fiber optic digital networks So as a result when those wholesale packages are unavailable because of the retirement of the old infrastructure or for whatever other reason Then the incurb incumbent service providers can force their competitors including granted to purchase ink for connection at exorbitant prices So other than the notice requirement for the for retirement of copper networks There's really nothing that provides that regulatory safeguard to avert the anti competitive effect of the transition to these digital networks All right, and another important impact on competition has to do with The licensing itself what we call section 214 Again the Commission through its ancillary authority has extended the 214 requirements to facilities based IP Voice IP services, but again if the ancillary authority goes away that 214 obligation Goes away the Commission loses its jurisdictional hook to review these kinds of transactions or the obligation to To of these carriers to give notice even where they're discontinuing their service to get the permission before they stop providing is More consolidation going to be good for America if that happens Sorry, is that question directed at me? Yeah, that was a do I could open it up to the panel But yeah, but but I figured it's as a competitor You know is is more is more competition in an unregulated space going to be good for competition and good for America No, it isn't because historically we've just seen that these players don't play They don't they're not they're not they don't play with us willingly Because they want to they play with us because the rules and laws are in place to promote competition Why would carriers offer us and you know You know these services that wholesale rates for dust for then us to provide that to Businesses for this us to then provide that to schools into libraries if it was up to them They would just get all that business themselves I mean, this is what we've seen historically with AT&T It required the government to go and it required the government to break it all up and create these competitive rules in a competitive environment and That's how we're seeing such as we we saw some success from Businesses from federal and state governments that have benefited from that competitive resale on the provision of TDM based telephone service We don't know what's going to happen if that's not applied to VoIP services, so we need that we need we need the FCC to step in Yeah, I want to let folks now I want to open this up to audience questions And the let folks know there if you're watching this on zoom there is a Q&A Icon that you can click on and type in questions if you're watching this through YouTube We have folks who are watching that channel who will be able to provide us with You know Who are we're gonna provide us with The questions I see one question already in the chat Which is are there interconnection requirements with the ii j a infrastructure money? No Now there is nothing that prevents NTIA from making that a condition or Requiring that as a waiting factor and saying, you know, you're more likely to get the Money if you will provide that so we have certainly urged NTIA yet to do that other Parties particularly The carriers unsurprisingly take an opposite view they say First of all that because it's not explicitly required it must be prohibited and even if it's permissible you shouldn't do it So this is an open question, but unlike the The broadband money in the 2009 You know infrastructure act The the broadband money here does not have any kind of interconnection requirement So well while we're waiting for any additional questions. Let me go back to Brian The one of the things that people love, you know may say is well, okay, let the states Step in if there's really a problem here and the FCC isn't doing anything Then you know the states Can do it is that First I feel constrained to point out from a from a lawyer perspective that that's complicated because there's actually a split Now in federal circuits as to whether the FCC's refusal to classify A service as title to effectively preempts the the states from any kind of action at all So in the 8th circuit, thanks to the charter decision the States in the 8th circuit are preempted from stepping up if the FCC tries to be not, you know It's a question. Where's in the 9th circuit. Thanks to the the net neutrality decision The states in the 9th circuit have the authority To act where the FCC has abdicated authority, but let's assume You know, you have the opportunity states have the opportunity have states been Stepping in on this even where where they they know that the their networks are already starting to fall apart They have but there's a lot of Confusion at the state level right generally states can regulate to fill gaps in federal policy We know this but in the case of VoIP service federal courts as you mentioned and state PUCs have Interpreted the level of preemption differently So this has caused confusion in the states who are not sure what authority they have to protect customers in their states And so we've seen the impacts of this confusion that right the the CPUC has recently adopted in order to consider Expanding its service quality rules to apply to VoIP as well as wireless providers and broadband providers We will see what the outcome of that is but here's here's another concrete example that highlights the importance of Title two classification in Minnesota 9-1-1 service under VoIP is not regulated CWA has heard from the Department of Public Safety There that they encounter periodic challenges with VoIP providers with respect to their 9-1-1 call delivery and associated Location database accuracy and management. So this can be very problematic for the end user of the service if they need to reach 9-1-1 and it hasn't been set up correctly. So as a result There was a bill in the Minnesota Legislature to give the Department of Public Safety The authority to oversee 9-1-1 for VoIP This would have allowed DPS to hold VoIP carriers to the same level of responsibility That they require of both landline and wireless carriers so that consumers can expect to receive an Equitable level of 9-1-1 service regardless of what type of communication Service they they choose now just yesterday. I received word that the bill is dead Industry lobbyists had it pulled and this then is yet another reason why we need to classify VoIP as titled to at the federal level So therefore to reiterate our point Regulate the service to avoid this type of confusion not how it's delivered As you've said over and over a phone is a phone And so customers who make calls using VoIP technology should have the same protections as customers That may cause using other technology and classifying VoIP under title 2 will protect consumers ensure Regulatory parity and will clarify the the confusion for these states that we're seeing All right. I mean it's hard to think of anything more essential and more basic than 9-1-1 service and the idea that because of a inaction the FCC That there are going to be Any Americans let alone a potentially a substantial number of Americans who are not guaranteed a connection to 9-1-1 Should be outrageous to all of us So I mean Olivia, let me let me put a question to you a lot of people You know this brings up a point a lot of people will say well, you know Internet who needs the phone anymore, you know, well, I just use zoom. Why do I need? You know, why do I care about a phone connection? Who who cares about the phone? You know if it's Are there still people who use it and are they you know people who are particularly? You know vulnerable who need this kind of communication Yes One I would argue that we would all we all rely on our phones particularly in times of crisis and emergency to you to reach 9-1-1 to find out, you know post disaster where to go Certainly to receive emergency alerts, but low-income households the elderly households and in rural parts of the country are It's still very much rely on their phone. I would also say that You know There's a reason why we still have like toll-free calling toll-free numbers to To find out information on how to get benefits, right? It's not everybody. We have a digital divide Not everybody is online And we have segments of the low-income population that we know are heavily smartphone Reliant as their only form of broadband connectivity to the extent they have brought in connectivity, so This is essential for all of us again going back to the public safety reason But it is also essential for those who are some of the most vulnerable households in the country and you know voice Remains a very popular service and again, we're talking about not just your home landline We're talking about how it extends to To mobile and wireless as well another example that occurred to me is we're all moving to two-factor identification I recently had a Personally experienced with this where my mother-in-law lost her cell phone and then she yeah was trying to access the yeah you know what the Website to what to try to what? You know get it corrected She had a different phone that she was using with a different phone number And you know was trying to access the yeah service and in order to access the service It said we have texted to your phone number And of course that's the phone that's lost You know she had a with her gmail account and you know needed to get into gmail account and you know Couldn't remember her password and you know again. It was like well two-factor identification We have texted the confirmation code to your phone number of the phone. You've lost so you know we don't think about the many many ways that we That we all still use phones and are connected to phones and now why this is a service that remains So important and even though again, we're talking about a narrow classification question of justice facilities based Interconnected VoIP. That's the the thread Or the line if you will on which the entire FCC Jurisdiction over this critical infrastructure now hangs I would also like to point out Not just the consumers, but I think government and local governments rely on phone service for delivery of information For access to benefits. There's a reason why phone numbers are always listed on who to contact for what We rely on the the phone trees the IVR, you know when you call in That's a way a lot of businesses sort of handle first-line inquiries from their consumers So it's not just consumers rely on their phones to connect But also the rest of society is relying on that phone as a phone to connect Yeah, and the you know, there are a lot of online businesses that tried not to have a Yeah a voice helpline and you know, they certainly still try is it but you know, they can play from it So many people need it now who have one question here from Oddwhite who is Full disclosure was here at PK is a External who asks now in the era of fiber and cable and wireless brought and with no underlying copper Should Congress do away with the separate definitions of telecommunications and information service and just merge them into one And I will say it's you know a good theoretical argument as to whether what we've you know called the stove pipe Arrangement of the communications act that makes this kind of Definition service definitions so important To what the authority in nature of regulation whether we ought to get rid of that whether we should somehow but you know That's a question that is Complicated and you know where there's no clear answer and where you would need Congress to act and move a statute through and By the time we got done with all of that you know Are the FCC would be well out of authority? Yeah to to oversee our critical infrastructure, so You know, whatever the right answer is there. I will say yeah, we've given the FCC a softball here We've given the FCC the lightest lift possible take the thing that is clearly a phone And just say yeah consumers Businesses all of you people who subscribe to this you're right. That's a phone Not a weird thing that looks and acts and you know pretends it's a phone But is somehow not a phone for our for when it comes to Making sure that it works and making sure that you have the protections that you're used to enjoying over a phone so I see we've got just A few minutes left. I don't know what Michelle do we have any? questions on the YouTube Channel Okay, I'm told we don't so I will close here by just asking each one of the panelists here if you were you know sitting there with the The FCC the five hopefully some day or at least for the moment the four FCC commissioners and you had just you know one minute to tell them why this is the most important why this is so Important and why they need to move on this and it it's not about you know politics or any or you know Republican versus Democrat. It's about it's just important. It needs to happen. What would your What would you want to tell them? Let's start with the sauna Very thanks Harold. I would tell them that Technology is moving forward in competition laws need to move forward with it and having a cop on the beat like the FCC to protect consumers and small businesses from price dodging and Horror service is really important. We're two decades into VoIP services and it's it's time to really enshrine some core competition principles by classifying VoIP as a telecommunication services talk to me to service and providing it with all those protections Great and Brian, what would you want to tell them? I would say that this issue is important for for consumers and for competition Yes, but also for workers who want to be out there building and maintaining networks who want to get Restoration up quickly following disasters, but of course don't control deployment decisions So title to classification for VoIP would help ensure timely restoration regulatory parity and quality service which are important to telecom workers Thank you, and Olivia, what would you want to tell them? well certainly just the regulatory certainty With the facilities based VoIP is just essential for core consumer protections and expectations which Consumers have had the privilege of you know benefiting from all along with privacy truth and billing Ensuring there's a reliable affordable Quality voice service Available when you pick up that phone and you need it the most, you know, you don't want to say, oh my god What's the underlying technology because this is not working And I'll just say for for me the one thing I'd want to tell them is guys I Wrote 70 pages on this just read the petition and give us what you meant what we need because that's the law and that's the right policy So I want to thank our panelists here for participating. I want to thank all of you Who came this afternoon to listen? We will I think in a relatively short period of time have The recording of this panel on our public knowledge YouTube channel So what hopefully you tell your friends? that this is important and that You know when we get the link out that this is something that they need to to know about and be prepared to fight for So Thank you all