 Hello everyone I think I got that right kind of kind of a smooth transition but not so smooth but it worked so we are live we are live okay thank you everyone for showing up today this is the breeder syndicate I need to remove the background from everything I'll eventually figure all this out this is my co-host not so dog there he is and this week we're doing a show on feminization and can you try to go through feminized seeds a to z what they are why they are some of the the mechanics of how it works as far as the biosynthesis and how to make them so yeah where should we start should I bring in my presentation I mean I don't know if we should start with the presentation do we get to see how many normally we we uh we chat I was almost going to break your rule there for a second normally we chat for a second until people join can you see how many people join yeah it's the live the live on the youtube is going to be way different than the live at instagram going to be drastically different in numbers so okay so um yeah anyway uh I don't know if the I don't know if the presentation is uh is the gig or whatever maybe we could just start by the first feminized seeds that I ever knew of uh were just herms yes and there was a lot of false information um you know uh we used to think of herms as like an accident before we really understood like the the reasoning behind it um and we used to think that if you used herm seeds you could permeate the line yeah with future herms but uh that was pretty much I think the first feminized breeding uh that most people ever did was accidental yeah trying to grow seedless figured out that if stress or if they let their plants run long that they would make seeds and when they pop them they tended to be female yeah very much so you know and but I don't think people realized at that time I didn't certainly that those were actually feminized seeds oh yeah I'm sure I'm sure that was just like a an afterthought or something they might have noticed after the fact after planting them several times when it happens you know especially if you only get a handful maybe you just think that like you just didn't get a boy yeah left on your side for once and you know we also call that bag seed and uh bag seed is sort of the backbone of the elite cuts history yeah in a lot of ways well a lot of bag seed too is from leftover males you know so it's not all feminized bad all not all bag seed is feminized bags correct very much so very much so in fact like in you would say that like in imports and stuff like that um uh you know a lot of them get pollinated by straight males all the time yeah absolutely and uh so yeah but that was that was um that's sort of the start and then for a long time most of my breeding career really it was what we call regular seeds that was the only way that people did things for the most part uh I don't recall reading about or knowing anyone except for some very weird experiments trying to make feminized seed uh sometimes people would just stress out a plant and try to get it to make pollen yeah that was I think that was probably like one of the most common things that was tried in like feminized seed infancy right yeah um mohan ram and his partner did some work in 1982 with uh feminized sex reversals and the first paper was written in 1982 on the the feminized sex reversals using silver nitrate and sodium thiosulfate and they tried a bunch of different things but they found that in a certain concentration that the best results came from using a combination of silver nitrate and sodium thiosulfate they would use this the silver nitrate to get the action the ethylene blocking action and the sodium thiosulfate to keep it from being as phototoxic but I never did it right phototoxic yeah yeah damaging so this is the man we kind of owe our our whole feminized heritage to as far as you know developing the process trying it out figuring out what works best and it goes as far back as 1982 but we didn't quite see that start coming into the cannabis world until if I remember correctly dutch passion was the one who started pushing it real big they did they started defining the term feminized and instead of saying that they were all female seeds they would call it feminized just in case you got a male or two popping up they wanted to denote that it wasn't always going to be female as it were and maybe people should know too that um when when that first started happening being dutch they kept what they were doing very close to the vest oh sure there was zero explanation given or way of how they were achieving it so for a lot of aspiring breeders and things like that there wasn't uh you know there wasn't an easy reference of anywhere to go uh on how to what what to use how to do it a process you know mixing instructions any of that yeah um and it was held pretty tightly yeah they tended to hold things much tighter than a lot of other communities and and notably so I mean every time that they seem to share clones like every single dutch seed company would have it the next year and be competing with it in the cup so there was kind of a reason that they did it but it carried on into other avenues and areas even when it came to like breakthroughs in in different technology for cannabis seeds and I also think too that you know for a long time as well the technology was unknown and it was also sort of looked down upon as cheating yes uh and cannabis enthusiasts for the most part did not look at it as a particularly viable method yeah they thought the male and female method was everything everyone needed uh and but you know in other forms of breeding and certainly in other uh in other industries and agriculture and stuff uh reversals feminized seed s ones you know all that kind of stuff have a long history yeah it's the agricultural standard to breed using selfing techniques because it's the fastest way to achieve uniformity which is really what they're trying to achieve in agricultural breeding they're trying to yeah consistency uniformity dependability all all aspects of the same thing they're trying to lock in certain traits and have those be dependable yeah I mean farmers need to know what they're growing each year they need to make sure that each one's going to stand up to to whatever's coming being thrown at it they can't have a bunch of diversity you know and that's that's a lot of money this is a commercial operation so yeah and and so I think what happened is is there was a cultural shift in that in the 70s and 80s and certainly a decent chunk of the 90s for a lot of people it was a seed culture right and you would just buy seeds and you would grow seeds and you would kill the males or remove them and you would grow the females and sometimes you'd make seed but you were growing from seed and then clones started becoming more popular as people found certain specimens specimens yeah and what that led to is you know the first wave of so on elites right yeah and then that led to breeding with those elites yeah and we covered a lot of those elites in a previous episode I think it we called it the can of bible clone list so uh do a youtube search for that you can you can find that episode so people started well what happened if I take my male lines and I start breeding them to these elites that have all these qualities that people like um and then on what happened I think with dutch passion too is as in Holland and Amsterdam as they started to lose actual lines but still had clones remaining I think they went feminized as a way to like you know maybe they don't have a line of it anymore but they still have a few select cuts oh yeah yeah and I think they also they did look at it as a way of keeping other breeders from breeding with their line I know that was big with the white widow like feminizing the white widow the reason behind that was because they wanted to make sure that people couldn't use their white widow cut they wanted to make it theirs you couldn't make it like theirs and if it's only female you won't have a male to make your seeds with when in fact we all know that you can take a plant from a feminized seed reverse it use that pollen just as well as any clone so yeah I will say back then now that is as the industry has shifted now that's very wide knowledge but before I think it was not wide knowledge yeah so it probably for some years um protected them just because I mean I can't remember was it icy mag I can't remember what year it was where people started posting an actual recipe oh I don't know um I believe CSI said it was originally on old canna world or cannabis world or wherever grow I always attributed it to FET because that's where I first saw it was when FET would pass it around okay ice brothers but it goes back much further and there's there's someone who actually that that I forgot it was like five to 2.5 it was what we call it the the recipe where it's five milligrams silver nitrate to 2.5 milligrams sodium thiosulfate mixed for the stock solution and that's the old recipe that someone and I I I regret it but if I can figure out from CSI I'll update it in the show notes there so people can have it so yeah I mean it it's gone it's gone from sort of being the the uh cheating undesirable way oh man this breeder's feminizing he's lost his his mojo yeah um to being the industry standard yeah you know where regular seeds now are very rare compared to feminized yeah so it's been based a sea change really I've talked about it in a lot of other episodes where like the first I would say even 10 years of making seeds when I and I and I came off the bat making feminized seeds that's what I started with as far as seeds that I was selling I was making femme seeds and selling them just off the bat and for the first 10 years I was told constantly daily emails you're ruining the cannabis fucking genome that it's going to be done you're ruining it for good uh taking males out as GMO you're killing it you know this isn't natural it's not nature's way you know there were all kinds of different reasoning that people would use and it was almost like this religious belief that they had like God made it this way you're gonna tinker with it your way and it's gonna be Satan bad you know that's the way I felt yeah I mean it's it's funny I was thinking about it when you were talking about the uh the part uh you know about like having all these other seed companies steal the work the next year because you just buy regular seeds and then you have the pollen yeah and you know uh when people think of GMO uh I would say that probably the first name that comes to mind is probably Monsanto right oh sure in everybody's mind and they made they famously got around that issue by breeding specifically for uh you know so that their stuff was sterile and then you we've seen this in cannabis as well talked about because there's a there's a problem and never everyone's talked about it every single breeder has talked about it where there is no there is no um there is no patents there is no way to control your genetic work so once you've released a line to the public it's just out there yeah and the only the only system that regulates who does what with it after that is the honor system yeah I mean we all know we all know like from theory and practice that once you let a clone out of your hands once it leaves the one spot that it exists what's two people hold it everyone holds it we've all learned that time yeah I mean it's that it's that old saying right like three people can keep a secret if two of them are dead exactly exactly it's true it's true you know and uh but the other part that I will say to that and this is a little bit of a tangent so I apologize but sure um you know using the og for instance which had like an enormous uh impact on Southern California and sort of the cannabis market in general if greedy people hadn't sold it and leaked it it probably never would have gotten as famous as it did because there would only have been a tiny group of people that had it and one of the issues that we had with the chem dog back in the day was there was like four garages in California growing yeah so it just wasn't very much market for it so it never really could build because it didn't leak out fast and get everywhere and have this huge wave of everyone having it so fast yeah it like it was like here and there yeah like it took push there's a there's a weird thing between people don't want it to leak too fast too far and make it worthless yeah but if it doesn't leak enough where there's actual available flour of it it can't ever catch on as a as a weight yeah we saw that with the clockwork orange in San Diego like we tried to keep that in the hogs breath super tight and the only reason we ever saw a hogs breath take off the way it did was because James got it had a collective called unified collective and had he not had that collective and had it not gotten big I'm not sure that hogs breath would have blown up like it was because it wasn't in a bunch of different rooms it was just not and if and if you're if you have something really special that you know kind of gets out there you can get a little bit of buzz with it and people want it but you don't fulfill that with flour ever and people never get to try it that just that that is a hype that dies fast it does you know or another level is it becomes legendary enough now that like people can can you know offer high priced whatever on it because there's not enough people out there that can call bull Asian fantasy perfect example one person ever has had this clone never gotten rid of it never let anybody have it but to this day I still see Asian fantasy in collectives it actually it went so far as to make itself totally unpopular because nobody else could really get ahold of it that it became so rare that it proliferated fakes eventually you know it's funny as way back in the day sometimes when we would try to sell people chem dog the funny thing about brokers and people like that is that they would diss it sometimes because they were so connected pretty much all the best weed they see yeah so if they were unfamiliar with it it couldn't be that good yeah you know um just so everybody knows too this this youtube is much better but I can't see comments this week the way Matt can so I apologize uh if if uh if you're asking me things and I don't see them you know he can't see anything um I don't worry I'll type for him anyway yeah but I mean getting getting back to the to the sort of the the focus of it is that um you know even before feminize seed people started just releasing elite stuff and hybrids only yeah because they didn't want to give out the pure line yeah they wanted to release it mixed and then feminize started coming along like he said with dutch passion but I don't think in America it really started spreading to anybody using it Matt can correct me he's way more into it than I am on this one but probably like 070809 era yeah I think 06070809 and a little bit before with hive obviously hive was a big proponent of of reversals and doing feminized seeds I know uh there were people like golden eyes doing supposed s ones of cuts that weren't I guess I should clarify and and say that like as feminized seeds started hitting the market where cannabis members you know cannabis people could get access to them yeah I think that there was some experiments going on like and there was certain I'm not going to say like before this date no one was doing it because that would be silly um but as far as like a marketable thing where people were you know selling feminized seed yeah I think it was about that time like 06 and on but realistically like there was there was never a time up until the last few years uh the past five six seven years where you weren't getting insulted to do it though like you were looked at as like the bastard child of the cannabis industry for making those available I mean people would people would give uh Caleb a bunch of shit oh yeah good friends would would bullshit with you or with him or with whoever that you know that they were making feminized seed it was cheating yeah it was cheating yeah it was like oh only the untalented do that that's the short that's the easy shortcut anybody can do that it's selecting the male that that's that's where the real breeding comes in that's where the real that was usually the propaganda for it well it's not like like most propaganda there's a pretty good amount of truth in it in the sense that when it comes to selecting males it is hard oh sure you know and um and but you know I don't think you know I used to joke with you or whatever that like all my regular breeding I I never had a single failure yeah because when you're using regular males uh it's really hard to fail yeah you know you can only you don't need a few of them and they produce a copious amount of pollen and you can heavily seed your entire room pretty easily yeah um I've never had male failures so to me the the art of uh regular seed breeding is like fans and a bamboo stake and beating the male yeah or cutting the male off and shaking it above the the plants it's extremely basic and successful but as you know uh Matt can talk about at length and some of our friends getting the feminized process is a lot trickier yes it's it's certainly uncertain in terms of if it will work how many seeds it will make how much pollen there is there's a lot of the actual act of getting the the the fertilization happening yeah is is a lot more difficult oh yeah and that's sort of like the name of the game and there's a lot of nuance and part of this show is going to be Matt talking about some of that nuance yeah so let's talk about first why why feminized seeds why why would this be a tool in any breeder's tool belt what what are the advantages what are the disadvantages um what are they so first off a feminized seed is a seed made with using only female pollen that has been induced now technically you can induce it in many ways you can induce it stress chemical um or i mean even i guess that's it stress or chemical because letting it flower extra long is still the stress kind of trait for it to throw those uh for those male parts i don't want to interrupt too much but you could probably throw in genetic as well yeah i mean there's some things like ties and some different strains that seem to herm easily and often even when happy oh yeah that's true yeah intersects natural intersects plants definitely yeah they exist yeah they definitely exist in nature um and you know this trait exists in cannabis originally because the main goal of a cannabis plant isn't for us to smoke it like in its in its system its main its main purpose is to make more seeds and carry on its its genetics and in doing so somehow some way it has a a trait in it i don't know if that's a correct word but it has the ability to detect if there are males around it and if not and it knows that it's going to be dying soon or unable to make seeds soon it will start making its own male parts even with even if it's missing the male chromosome it will use its environment to manipulate its own hormonal system and kick out male parts to make essentially female only chromosome to pollen so what you end up with the in the seeds is a single chromosome plant only female and that can look like two things uh it can look like what we call you know our our our general term for it in the cannabis industry is bananas uh which are basically like little yellow uh pollen sacks that pop out of fent of female bud right and they contain a small amount of pollen realistically speaking but there can be many of them and they typically little anthors little anthors and they just grow they just grow they look like a little bit that's why we they get called bananas because they're little yellow curved things um and that's the most common type of hermaphrodite but there is also hermaphrodism where some part of the plant or even out of of maturing female flower you will get actual male parts grown yes and and when you do reversals a lot of people don't realize this until they actually perform it and see it in person when you're spraying a female plant when it turns when it starts growing male parts it does not grow male parts like a male does like we're used to seeing now in cannabis when we have males we're used to seeing the the the the parts grow up in like the elbows or armpits you know right there hang lower you know they they grow up and hang lower that's not what happens in reversal it keeps the structure of the female like a bud and groups the flowers super tight the male parts super tight and ball so they don't necessarily hang um sometimes you know successful reversal they'll kind of extend and hang a little bit and droop and so that it's very pretty you know easy for it to drop pollen everywhere but most of the time most of the time in a reversal when you're using a chemical reversal it'll it'll be very hard for it to to uncluster and a lot of times you'll need to use tweezers and pick them out by hand and shake the little pollen out in a baggie like it's there's a lot of tedious things you have to do sometimes to coax pollen out of a reversed female because of the way the bud structure is much different than a male uh yeah i mean it uh i almost think of it like is the flowers pack so tight that they can't open up yeah and drop pollen the right way it can't mature it doesn't it seems like from my conversations with matt and other friends of ours it it does seem to me like over the next decades or so we probably will continue to learn a lot more about how to successfully reverse cannabis cannabis obviously since feminized seed are the most common way that people breed now people have had a lot of success with it but it is very hit or miss very inconsistent failures are common and even successful um successful can be anything from like a light dusting of pollen that you get a few seeds to a heavily seeded room where you're extremely happy at the number of seeds that you got or anything in between really and and the one thing to note and a lot of people don't understand and i'm going to cover this a little bit more in depth later but one of the reasons why you'll see feminized seeds tend to cost more is because even when you have those like extreme successes where it seems to get you a lot of seeds it's always less than you would get from a male always always you never get as much pollen from a reverse plant as you would a male so that's super important you know like a lot of people always say why are they more expensive i don't get it it's the failure and it's the amount of seeds you get you know i mean even you know just to use an example i think when when csi reversed the the triangle um he failed twice yeah and then he used he used one specific spray and had success but he only got about 10 or 15 percent of the volume of seeds that he would normally expect on a well done reversal yeah and we've had other friends of ours um you know our buddy pip or whatever that reversed uh his sour diesel cut yeah um and he never even got a saleable amount of seed yeah exactly you would get if he got a few dozen you know 50 or you know or whatever you know whatever um so sometimes it can be essentially a failure yeah uh in the sense you know and and then you go you go hunt through a bunch of weed uh and you find a few dozen seeds yeah and that's it so it can be pretty frustrating in that regard uh where is it there we go okay so essentially the why why would you make feminized seeds one if you want to have a pure version of a of a specific line let's say you have a deep chunk but you don't have any males of the deep chunk and you want to make you want to have a pure seed line of deep chunk and all you have left is one deep chunk clone you have no access to any males at that point you could either hybridize it bring in outside genetic material a male and cross it and then take the generations forward and select toward the deep chunk or you could reverse another deep chunk or you could take a clone of the same deep chunk reverse that onto another clone of that same deep chunk and make seeds with that it would be pure deep chunk and this time all the work going forward has already been done as far as making it purely deep chunk and look deep chunk and etc so it's great for having a really pure seed line um it's great for people who especially when a lot of people when I see them buy feminized seeds they tend to be buying feminized seeds because they have a plant count in whatever state or country that they're in and they can only have so many things growing and they can't afford to keep using pots container space light the money electricity on males they can't keep you know building up a nice even canopy if they're constantly yanking males out and having to replace those with a new seedling and popping it hoping the same thing so in a lot of cases feminized seeds do real well especially in Europe early on it was really popular because there are a lot of smaller apartment and house grows there with the open the open market of the hemp industry we've seen feminized seeds and auto flowering stuff really take hold in that market as well I mean auto flowering's always kind of been looked down by on by breeders mainly because there is a lot of problems getting good root or alice hybrids out there early on nowadays there are companies that supposedly do a really good job with it and I haven't tried any but I'm sure they do much better than we used to back in the day but the feminized thing is is definitely a staple since the hemp times people are definitely I think it's becoming more comfortable in America ever since the hemp market opened that people are more comfortable talking about buying feminized seeds and trying to get the real science behind it now as opposed to even five six years ago you know you could also say too that like on a commercial level you know when you start growing acres of of weed of any kind if you have you know you you end up having to hunt a lot for males yeah too you know yeah you know it's really hard to get people to keep male stock for you like let's say you're moving houses or moving rooms and you know your friends offer to keep your clones for you and you want to get them back it's really hard for people to be like yeah I'll take that male for you no problem because nobody really wants males kicking in their room taking up space possibly pollinating their their flower so there's a lot of advantages to having this this tool in your tool belt I mean as a collector it's hard enough to get people to back up females you love that aren't currently popular yeah definitely much less a male that they're never going to bloom yeah so that that kind of breaks down the why I mean I think that kind of covers it unless you have anything else on the why I had a little bit of color to what you said you know when Matt was talking about cell thing and s ones I would say that the vast majority of elites that we have out there on the cannabis space today are not lines anymore they're specific clones yeah and so one of the cool tools about it is it's not perfect but by selfing a a you know clone only if you were you can get an idea of what else might be in there and that can tell you a lot about the line yeah is it does it have a lot of diversity in it is it pretty narrow you know like what kind of traits does it tend to pop so it's it's imperfect but in a lot of cases from old elite cuts that have been held from the 90s or the 2000s it's our only way to get a look at that line yeah because there simply are no males in existence that we know of there's no regular seed sitting out there so you only have the one example of what that genetics holds yeah and it's a really good way to in that yeah and by out crossing it you're never sure what's you know what the other plant influenced it yeah so it allows it allows you to like look within a line and you we draw a lot of inferences now these days from what s ones do it tells us information about the mother plant that we might not have otherwise had yeah but i think it's important for people to know uh and i think matt would probably agree here that consistency usually comes from out crosses um you're going to get whacked and weird shit in most s ones yeah because it is inbreeding um so you can you you have a much better chance with s ones of looking for individual plants you want to keep as new moms that might be amazing but the consistency might be all over the board yeah i mean you might get you get high high highs and low lows i think is the best way to put it yeah you could get more junk you could get more hermaphrodism than normal um so out crosses using femini seed or more stable but s ones give you a glimpse into a line that might be your only way and and it's important to note that like s ones might give you more uh the high highs and low lows but taking the just a single generation further whereas in the f one generation at taking it another generation further makes it more diverse with s twos usually it tightens the line up if you're bringing correctly it tightens the line up you know um and and and so on s three even more tight even more tight it breaks true to tight essentially when you're doing further generations of selfing and then you can also the more generations of selfing sometimes you know they talk about plants getting weaker or unhappier because what happens is is there are experiences where the more you self something the deeper you go uh the more undesirable recessive start popping up yeah two yeah so it's a tool and it's a cool tool because for most like I said most old elites we have one or two clones surviving and that's it yeah and it's a good way to keep those in a in a form that you can keep reproducing and keep stored in a fridge so even when you're you're down and growing let's say you want to take a vacation you can at least reaccess that genetic material even if it might not be identical you can at least get that genetic material again and if you pop enough you'll find something very similar so yeah that's pretty much the color that I would add to it it's just all right so that was the why the why feminae seeds we went over the what they are uh simply simply put it's a breaking down it's a blocking of ethylene when you're reversing a female you want to block the ethylene so that the jabrelle inflows through freely um on the flip side when you want to reverse a male you wouldn't use the same product or chemicals that you would to reverse a female if you're reversing a male and people do do this um you would use something like uh you you want to block the jabrelle and and spray ethylene you know give it give it a little more ethylene which is like ethophan or florelle if people are actually looking down that road so what I would say when it comes to feminizing when people first ask me what to do I'd say step one you procure a recipe earlier we talked about the the recipe that I referred to as vet's recipe but someone else wrote it um which again is the five grams to two what was it or point five grams to two point five grams uh silver to sodium thiosulfate that's the old recipe and that works it may not be the most effective recipe any longer but it will work so if you're if you're short on funds any of that that works you can get those chemicals fairly affordably um and and remember when you do make the stock solution using that recipe always keep your stock solution and that is the undiluted mixture in the fridge until ready to mix and spray this ensures a long stable shelf life also if your spray has been sitting longer than two weeks it's imperative that you shake it like you mean it aggressively shake and mix that silver around in some bottles that can cling to the surface of the plastic uh this is expected or expected and an active amount is adjusted to account for the average amount lost from sitting if you're using the the right reversal spray but if you're making it from your own keep that in mind when you store it when it sits in the stock solution bottles silver will build up and not come off very well off the sides um even if you do mix it there's there's a certain amount of loss so you want to adjust for that uh the planning session here's here's where it gets fun what do i want to reverse what plant do i want to receive the pollen how do we beat the odds of sterile reversals and is everything introduced to the same room all at once these are all things to think about when you're building your plan for doing your first reversal am i going to do it in a tent am i going to do it in a big open field is this going to be outside is it going to be inside all these are super super important to know um so what plant do i want to reverse uh let's let's pick one for example not so let's say we are going to reverse the la kush the headband la kush we want to reverse that what plant do we want to receive the pollen do we want to make s ones so we want to be hybrid i would i would say i you know obviously it like depends on people's personal goals sure but i would say like most people want to make some amount of s ones to trap the clone only in a seed line that's not contaminated by external external genes yeah and then it usually is a combination of crossing it to other clones you like a lot yeah or other clones that are currently popular that you think will hit a market i guess yeah those are probably i saw a question someone asked um and this is a good question is an s is an s one a reversal technically yes and no um all reversals are not all s ones uh f we refer to like if you're hybridizing something let's so in this example let's say you're reversing can be onto the la kush it's still going to be feminized but it's not considered a self line it's considered uh an f one reversal so that's that's the way we refer to it so i just wanted to point that out um i'm not sure if that's the the actual answer to the question you had but i know that's one thing that a lot of people confuse and call like f like f one hybrids of reversals they refer to them as s ones and that's not quite correct it's not it is a selfing it's a you're reversing the plant but it's not selfing it or pollinating itself and just so people know i can't see comments in this yet we haven't figured that out so if you don't get your question answered it's matt's fault entirely yeah and our one is uh our one is for recombinant genetics and that is something that we are not even discussing right now so no it's not our one um see how do we beat the odds of sterile reversals so this is the one thing that i talk about when i talk about reversals me and me and csi probably spend more hours discussing reversals than anything else that we talk about um trying to beat the odds of of when a uh plant will reverse all plants do reverse not all plants drop pollen and even that said i'm speaking very generally when i did that um 3000 plant reversal i remember there were two plants in a hemp field that didn't even reverse they just stayed there normal sex they were they were they just were not chemically able at that rate and it was a high rate to to reverse so it is possible that plants will not reverse but very very very too in 3000 plants if that gives you an idea of how rare and that was in hemp as well um where was i at how do we beat the odds of sterile reversal so what we figured out was maybe reversing one plant and rolling all the dice on one plant one big plant to produce a lot of pollen isn't the idea maybe it was smaller plants and more of them and that's how we started beating the odds and getting reversals to to be to be more predictable you know instead of a a single plant in a five gallon pot taking up you know a whole light reversing it and failing if we put you know 50 clones in a bunch of small pots in a single section under a single light reverse all of them the odds say you're bound to get it to happen so um that's that's really how we beat the odds numbers beat the odds maybe i could throw in something that i've noticed and that pretty much comes when i've ever asked matt or csi or anybody else that does a bunch of reversals as far as like what uh what the methods are and what's frustrating about it is that to me it seems like they can get a very successful reversal uh on a strain and they can go to make those same seeds again and they can do everything measured out exactly the same that they did before and get a different result um and so sometimes they'll have a situation where they'll have like 10 plants that they're reversing and like you know they started doing more numbers just because a couple of them will fail some of them will partially do it and then this many will actually successfully do it and throw off x amount of pollen and these are plants all within the same tiny little micro climate too if people don't understand this like it we really don't understand why like if it's the angle of light changed by x amount like they're all getting the same amount of spray it's it's so similar everything's so similar the same feed and sometimes it'll just be that some do and some don't so you could in a in a situation that i'm familiar with regular seed breeding i could put a couple of males of the same thing into a room yeah and be guaranteed that they would produce enough pollen to uh pollinate the entire room yeah but you know these they've developed an enormous amount of strategies in order to get enough pollen to pollinate the room so it's not a failure yeah i mean every single failure is is very expensive and shout out to aj gucci our very first super chat ever since we've been monetized on youtube so thanks a lot man thanks for the five bucks uh we really appreciate it all right so now the the next question and this is probably where it gets the most complicated is everything introduced all at once so here's the scenario we've got 3 000 plants of hemp cush that we're reversing onto 13 000 plants all right so the reason that that i would do choose that many is because of the ratios we want to make sure we have enough pollen to do it and in this situation this hypothetical situation attempt and one thing i've learned with hemp which is very different from my experience in cannabis is that there's no staggering when you're introducing everything to be pollinated so in this scenario with hemp in this big reversal i did we started by reversing i want to say a thousand plants first the first week and then two weeks later we started reversing another thousand and then a half a week later we started the last thousand and at that at that last week that last half week we introduced all the females because usually there's about a two and a half week stator between when you start reversing the plants and initiating into flower the ones that are going to make the pollen and it's usually about two and a half two to two and a half weeks before you introduce the the females that are going to catch the pollen but in the hemp reversal it started going off almost immediately upon flower which is it it reversed so fast usually it takes three and a half to four weeks so we're talking 24 to 28 days to see balls and not even not even to begin to drop pollen but just to see balls three and a half to four weeks however with this hemp reversal in three and a half weeks they were dropping pollen so the answer to is everything introduced all at once is it depends know the plants you're working with I always recommend if you if this is a do or die scenario make sure you know this plant and have done test reversals and all that because you can lose a lot of money gambling on a reversal okay let's see now this is me talking about the three to five four weeks and then okay so with our spray those two different instructions and and this is this is going to be with any kind of SDS base you can choose to spray daily which is you know once a day you can choose to spray once a week you can choose to spray once now I'd never recommend spraying once on the first time because it's hit or miss but the reason I I impress that you can you can spray once and have a reversal is because a lot of times people will practice this in a room and they only want to reverse one plant and they're spraying it and they're not seeing all the overspray going on all their other plants and all of a sudden they've got like five or six strains that they're reversing and they only had overspray once but it only takes once to flip a plant sometimes but there is no set recommendation sometimes doing it once a week works better than doing it once a day sometimes once a day is too much and causes a cluster too hard it's just too much of the hormone so it really depends it's everything is very very variant with this it takes a lot of work to find that sweet spot and every single clone and and every single time you use every single clone is a different experience and when you're spraying we're less concerned with covering every leaf we're more concerned with hitting the nodes so the armpits elbows all that that's where we want to spray we don't necessarily need to spray all over the leaves that's kind of a waste of the spray it mainly needs it in the nodes and we also recommend keeping as much of the spray and stock solution form as you can and only mixing exactly what you need refrigeration is everything so yeah when you spray okay one thing I should mention because Matt hasn't yet is as far as I'm aware you know the plant doesn't like the spray that much and so especially if you want to go with like a single spray or you know or a couple of strong sprays and that's it you could definitely think that you hurt your plant yeah because it what while you are going to you know hopefully your your goal is to successfully induce male flowers but the process to get there can be a little rough yeah absolutely and also when you start spraying it immediately stops stretch that's one thing to consider too because a lot of people are like you know I'm going to flip it now and then it'll stretch x amount I'll expect it to be this big by the time I'm done spraying when you start spraying it immediately starts squatting making that plant stretch just gets really slow it doesn't it kills stretch quite a bit so keep that in mind for height for space requirement for how big you want the plant to be when it starts dropping pollen keep that in mind you want it to be as big as it's going to be before you start spraying and yeah I think this is um I think that's uh that covers the presentation Scrooge didn't ask does the spray you have made have to be put back in the fridge every day in between sprays or just make enough for each day like I said in the presentation stocks keep your stock solution by itself make enough for each spray always keep the stock solution in the fridge um you don't really need to put the the the dilute solution in the fridge as long as you use it within the next few weeks but the stock solution can last as long as I mean we've had people use keep it four years and use it and it's totally fine as long as they kept it in the fridge and mixed it well afterwards so it has a long shelf life if you if you give a love and there's some mystery to it too in the sense that Matt's offering up the standard spray Matt has a spray himself that he that he offers that's his own tweaks on it there's a there's a couple other gentlemen that do it too and strangely it seems like uh with Matt's and other people's um sometimes that one that one type of spray seems to be the winner for a specific reversal yeah um so the only time I've ever heard of anybody having any trouble was with triangle and literally what we found is you have to kill it you have to kill it to get it to reverse like it is almost dead before you reverse it so one thing that I've learned is the one spray that was being used was very phototoxic right it's very phototoxic that's usually a sign of no sodium thiosulfate and strong silver nitrate so you so it might be that whenever the sodium thiosulfate was doing uh was inhibiting how much the the silver nitrate was actually getting in the plant even though it's damaging it it wanted more and more and more and thicker you know but you can always adjust your spray ratios to to compensate for that and some of you could play with that play with the spray you don't necessarily need sodium thiosulfate to accomplish it I mean silver nitrate reverses just fine on its own um it does really burn plants it really hurts them but sometimes that's necessary like the plants that we reverse we're not worried about how pretty they are or how pretty they're gonna look or how much resin they're gonna throw we're only worried about pollen and a lot of times that means a really ugly burn up plant to get to that part so keep that in mind that's very helpful because a lot of people I think would look at it and be like oh what did I do yeah you know like it's supposed to reverse and stay gorgeous looking yeah so the number one question that we get are feminized seeds more likely to herm no and yes and no is the answer again everything varies if the breeder is using a clone that tends to be sexually stable even in highly stressful situations the chance of intersex traits will not be increased with that said if a person makes seeds whether regular or feminized with a sexually unstable clone the likelihood is increased that the resulting progeny will be intersex moral the story know your seed maker not everyone making seeds is a breeder and I'll just throw in my uh my traditional take on herms which is uh everyone complains about this one trait but you know hermaphrodism is a very successful breeding method that the plant has used for forever and we've decided to start breeding it out in the last 20 or 30 years when people were growing seeded pounds from Colombia or Thailand or Panama or Mexico or wherever they didn't care about hermaphrodites because their weed was seeded anyway yeah you know I mean we can be thankful but at least there are companies like seed flunky and cookies bringing bringing herms back into the gene pool with cookies so I'm not saying it's desirable I'm just saying that it uh you know it it's misunderstood yeah but you can certainly breed it towards it on accident yeah I see people giving colloidal silver recipes in there I don't recommend colloidal silver to anyone it's been scientifically proven that it's very subpar to to silver nitrate sodium thymosulfate but you can try like if you can't you don't have access to silver nitrate there's a recipe it's I think it's put up in here 500 ppm's for colloidal silver you know you can try it at home I mean silver is the action for for doing that there are other different chemicals you can use to there's one that we tried for a little bit called retain and you know there there are other methods of action that aren't silver based that are very effective but it's it's very complicated and super expensive let's see trying to look for any uh new comments in here is it possible to get a male and feminized seeds we see that a lot for a long time I was I admittedly was a big proponent of because I'd see it I would see males and fem seeds pop up every now and then some lines more and over time I I noticed that if people were having them tested they were coming out female so what it seems like is when you see a plant showing male parts from fem seeds typically what you're seeing is a plant that is expressing male for whatever reason um it's not necessarily a male plant by chromosomal status but it is a plant showing male parts so it's possible to see a plant show male parts from fem and ic yes and and only showing only male and being truly you know uh like not not very many female parts it is possible to see that and that's it seems like cannabis is uh for the most part pretty sexually fluid yeah but it should be said um that there are some rare plants out there that will not reverse yeah um or they won't make pollen you know uh or if they do reverse and make pollen their pollen is sterile so there's a whole spectrum out there from failure just to reverse from it makes male flowers but not not actual pollen there's a whole range of like partial reversals we call them where like the physical reversal happens but what you're after active live pollen grains that are capable of fertilizing and creating seed don't actually occur yeah and we've even had friends that you know in order to get 50 or 100 seeds they had to take all the male flowers and grind them up through you know strainers and stuff to try to extract the few grains of pollen that actually existed yeah so yeah here's here's my final thoughts on my little presentation I had uh I wanted to make sure I covered everything so I made a little presentation apologies it's not a video I only know slide shows so my final thoughts are make sure you're using a good sts based project or product uh no one uses colloidal silver anymore like I said earlier that doesn't I mean I could I if anybody needs to see it there's a paper uh by mohan ram from 1982 comparing them all and they found that you know sts was the supreme for reversing cannabis um you want to think numbers numbers numbers that's how you win that's how you beat the the odds numbers numbers numbers spray in the notes spray in the armpits watch for overspray you don't want a whole room full of herms and you don't know what the pollen toner is um sometimes less is more when it comes to how often you spray that's very important sometimes spraying once a day is too much for whatever plant you're doing uh move it down to once a week uh keep it in the fridge and female reverse still have but the female bud structure with male parts they do not hang and often cluster tight that that really covers the whole how to make them um I don't know if you want to go into anything else into you tell a lot of feminized seeds or if there's anything else you want to cover um I mean I think you did the the timing thing is pretty interesting because maybe we could expound upon that sure for a second um perhaps you know uh what you're saying basically is for most people they would want to reverse what they plan on being their male pollen sources three to four weeks ahead of when they actually flower two and a half two and a half to three two and a half to three because yeah I just wanted to mention to people you know in nature um you know nature's worked out over a long time the when males drop pollen versus where the females are at yeah but you break that when you're doing it yourself and so you have to you know pick the right time yeah and that's another art too where um you know Matt and CSI and others have told me that you can have a situation where there are some rare plants that you can spray right at the same time as you bloom everything else because they reverse very fast yeah most of them are in that two and a half to three week range uh but it can vary and there's definitely plenty of stories that Matt could talk about about you get a successful reversal but you mess up on your timing yeah yeah I there's a there's a state of flower for the females that like it's it's formed enough pistols and enough bud that you'll if you you actually want to pollinate it yeah right and so you're trying to make sure you're introducing pollen at the perfect time for where your buds are yeah I mean there's always too early like if you introduce pollen too early let's say let's say you you miss the window and it's two weeks in you just have a few white hairs and they get hit um it stops it stops producing more white hairs for the most part it's like okay we're pollinated now our job is to produce the seed and finish the seed and that's the plant's internal uh kind of memory and time clock how it flips and that's the seed you're going to end up with not very many seeds on the flip side you want to make sure that when you pollinate you have the the largest amount of white uh stigma I think that's right I always get that one wrong I always call them pistols but I think it's stigma you want to make your statement stigma um you want to make sure you have the most uh most amount of white stigma and the least amount of brown um if it's brown it can't catch the pollen and it can't make seeds and it's a little ovule down there so you want to make sure that maybe we should just explain the science for a second so each one of those white hairs catches a tiny little pollen grain and there's a tube in that white hair and that pollen grain then falls down that tube all the way until it hits where it's supposed to fertilize and that's the core beginning of the seed yeah so what he's saying is is that if you're if you're you know if those white hairs are damaged by wind or pest or sprays or this or that if they're withered if they're you know they won't have the tube to shoot the grain yeah into where it needs to go yeah right so basically each one of those sort of each one of those is sort of a slip and slide if you will for a pollen grain yep one pollen grain a single pollen grain it's all it takes someone said they were on mushroom so i turned up the lights oh so so that that that's why like those those basically are out there just to catch a pollen grain in the wind yeah and then shoot it down into the actual flower itself where it can meet and fertilize and begin to grow the seed yeah that's how it does it and then and then the plant just focuses on on seed development because at that point the plant knows okay i've done my job i've flowered i've i've i've i've got seed in me this is what i do i make seeds so all the energy goes to that usually less on resin production less on anything else and so people should know too that it tends to be not with everything but it tends to be somewhere around you know the two and a half to to four weeks in of the female flowering for it to develop enough white enough flower formation that it has a plethora of white hairs everywhere sticking out yeah but it still has enough time left that when you fertilize you have enough time which is usually four to six weeks to make ripe seeds before the plant starts getting extremely overdone yeah and the bud starts rotting and issues start happening yeah um this is a good question have you grown seeds for example strain one reversed on a strain two and strain two reversed on a strain one how the results vary so um try and think of a good example i i just got some um bubble gum by durban poison and durban poisoned by bubble gum uh first time bubble gum was reversed second time durban poison was reversed or however it was and uh we're going to see the differences in those but usually the mother plant tends and this isn't always again it depends but generally speaking the mother plant tends to dominate most of the time so you're seeing little slight variances on the mother lying with a little input from the reverse plant but not always sometimes that reverse plant can can dominate co-dominate uh i mean there's you know there's all kinds of different ways i think there's a lot of discovery in that world and it also goes a little bit to uh the current state of seed making which is um most breeders do one-offs and then they move on and so by definition in order to get what what was just asked you would have to reverse the you would have to reverse one female to do one breeding and then at a separate time reverse the other side of it you know you'd have to do both so it's two separate breedings in order to get the parents flipped yeah yeah it's it's it's a task because not again not all not every time is a success so sometimes it might be four trials just to get two things just to flip the parents you know but it is something that we we talk about fairly often is like does the does the parent male or female make a difference yeah is there an influence in that regard um and i think it's an area of reversals that needs a lot more study yeah i think i think it's just like everything in cannabis whether it's male or female it just depends on how how the alleles line up you know like it just it's always going to line up differently using a male onto another genetic line it's or a female reverse female onto another genetic line and vice versa switching them it'll always line up differently so you'll see things similar between the lines obviously there will be some similar expressions but there are going to be differences too you're going to see uh some expressions occur more often in one of those crosses versus the other cross if that makes sense 61 likes there's more people in your net please like share and subscribe i always forget to say that since you're on youtube we can like share and subscribe well yeah i mean there there is i i think that there's a lot of feminized breeding certainly techniques and knowledge that needs to be expanded upon we might we as far as cannabis goes we might still be in the you know the child stage of our level of knowledge yeah um and at you know there's a lot of room in there for science um and for experiments to teach us various aspects of things yeah you know and a lot of and that's why so many breeders uh swap stories because they're always extremely curious how the plants respond and why did they respond a certain way and why did they respond differently at a different time but they were treated the same so there's a you know there's a uh i tend to think that there's probably a threshold which varies from strain to strain on how much silver is needed to get the correct effect and in some cases you're probably overloading the plant and in some cases it probably needed more but that's just i i'd say yes not it's not even plant to plant it's plant per time per plant per time you know like it's going to be because you could do the same strain the same clone at the same strain the next time the same amount it's not gonna work so it's like per plant and it's interesting too like i even think like methods of reversal can be can be played with as well i think yeah sts has been settled upon because it it works better than the alternatives yeah but yeah you know we're still experimenting and playing around with um different techniques uh especially with hard to reverse plants that we really are interested in making feminized seeds yeah you know and and things that often fail with sts um is there a different pathway i mean matt mentioned some other products earlier on the show yeah that guy's a dick to me so i i kept pushing his product forever as much as mine but i'm not gonna do that no more because he's been no i mean i just i just mean in the sense like i wasn't even talking about him i was talking about the um what was the other product that you mentioned um retain retain yeah there's there's there's different methods of reversals that were that that have barely been experimented with yeah there's there we're gonna find some some stuff in the near future i think that it's just it's been a bunch of us us like pseudo farmers that are just weed people trying to figure it out and like i'm not a scientist and i'm one of the guys been figuring it out trying to figure it out some of the longest and that's not appropriate there's people way better than me and more qualified to do this and i hope i hope in the next few years we're gonna learn a lot more as they come in with in agriculture they can bring in colleges and universities they can bring in ag departments they can get scientists you know who are helping kids work on their phd's and stuff study certain things um and so yeah like the typically the farmer isn't actually doing a bunch of wide-scale experimentation yeah you know um one thing that i'm i'm learning as i'm talking to more and more academics whether it's interviewing them for our show or like trying to you know schedule that or just trying to talk to them about genetics in general and these are the people that are working hands on in the universities with the genetics and it's a one the one thing that i've run into the most is that they really don't think cannabis people have anything to offer them as far as knowledge of history knowledge of science knowledge of genetics they really really don't think that we have a good handle on what has happened over the years and they are of the opinion that and when i say they this is this is pretty much everyone that's done any kind of genomics work in cannabis via the big company that did it for a while the universities they are still using the method the crowdsourcing and getting whoever when they crowdsource let's say the crowdsource blue dream whatever they crowdsource and the most occurs that is what they use is their legacy clone and trying to explain to scientists how that does not work for cannabis because the tighter something is held like the more rare it is usually the tighter it's held and it doesn't proliferate the community as much it works in reverse it tends to work in reverse and you really have to be on the ground have access to these people in in the circles and they have to trust you before they're going to tell you stories and i think that i'm learning that they think we're very incapable of getting this done and and it's going to be one of those bridges that we have to learn to cross and work with each other on because that's going to busts amigos like you know like i i feel like i i've put in a lot of work to history stuff when people tell me that i'm like well you know why is it true why do i know because we put in the work you know but that they don't see it that way so it's it's going to be interesting establishing those boundaries and and new relationships and science and working against each other's egos because it's it's hard to talk to phds when you've been doing something your whole life and they've been doing it for a year they still think they're they're gonna know much better than you and in many cases they do i mean you know there's a i'm not exactly sure what to say about that one but um i'll say this right which is not exactly what you were talking about but i have worked on various projects as things have become more legal and things of that nature right and you know i've crossed paths with you know uh conventional ag guys and stuff and there was a big fear in our world where we just thought that oh man once the once the ag people get a hold of it right they're just gonna crush and we're just these little hobbyists and they're gonna push us out of the way okay and i think a lot of those ag people think it too oh yeah for sure they come into it with a big swing and dick and they're totally confident in it you know um and they flail yes because they realize all the sudden that many of the chemicals and many of the different sprays and things that they use in their conventional agriculture are specifically banned yeah and they based their career on doing it and they're used to growing while i get x amount of tonnage of blueberries per acre yeah and that's what i'm going for and i grow the same clone and i treat it the same way you know and i get x amount of fruit or i get x amount of produce or i get whatever and this produce has been bred to make my life easier yes like almost all agriculture is not bred for the consumer to be happy it's bred for the farmer to produce a lot of it and ship it easier and store it longer and yeah i'll give a perfect example like tomatoes tomatoes their primary goal is weight they don't want it to rot they don't want it skin to crack they want it to store and travel well they want to be able to pick it green ship it green then blast it with ethylene and ripen it before they put it out on the shelf yeah and then after all these different factors come in then taste and texture and flavor come in where cannabis is the opposite of most of this shit everything you go into the grocery store and you buy vegetables they're like the blue i'm not i'm not trying to diss blue dream but i'm just going to say like blue dream has enough qualities that it's an obvious commercial cropper yeah right all your food for the most part is an obvious commercial cropper that's what it was developed for and so big ag gets involved and they're like what are you doing growing all this stringy bullshit yeah why aren't you growing you know and like what do you mean the consumer likes it like we dictate what what the consumer even can eat yeah these tasteless strawberries give us x amount more per acre so that's why we grow them yeah the flavor ones they tend to rot and they don't give us nearly as much weight and so even eat normal tomatoes all they eat cherry now damn it so there you know well that's where the whole heirloom thing came in yeah yeah because we just went back to like when people bred tomatoes to taste good yeah and they taste so much better than the ones that are just made for weight so you know to get back to what i'm saying is like i thought with big ag a lot of the techniques they've relied on for most of their career um you know they can't rely on a cannabis because it's banned yeah and cannabis is a much different so they don't have the lifetime of knowledge of growing that specific crop and they also can't go to universities or older guys in the industry and just learn from them about this specific crop most big ag has been building on the people that came before them and big ag for decades and decades now yeah nobody has to reinvent the wheel and big ag and right now in science what like kind of what i was talking about was that they really genuinely do not think one i i don't even know that they know that there is like a clandestine nature to cannabis and that there are these guys in these hills that have these stories of the they really the person people i talked to they really didn't think that anybody was really doing a good job of keeping track in cannabis they didn't know that anybody was even trying like they didn't care to love didn't nothing and the reason why i brought up that story about big ag is it the same thing that matt was just talking about with phd's they have a lot of assumptions looking from outside in right and they don't really realize the depth in the level that already exists within it yeah and they have there's a lot that they can teach us but there's a lot that they have to learn yeah and that's that's where i'm coming up against a lot of problems i mean i realize that there's a lot that i can learn from them but i genuinely think that they don't think that there's anything they could learn from any of us and it's it's humbling because it's like wow they really don't take any of us seriously but then it's also concerning to me and and i'm really trying to make an effort to make inroads there because these are the same people that are going to be writing the history books and the textbooks in universities and colleges that tell the history of cannabis and if we don't make those inroads and the person that eventually ultimately is in charge of writing these textbooks because there's going to be a few of them a group of them if they don't go look at the real history they get to write the history and it's lost except for these little podcasts here and and little bits of notes of history but that's all lost anyways and doesn't it's only real if it's in the in the textbooks and history books and we've seen that happen time and time again so i think it's important to make these inroads but i'm definitely definitely having a hard time doing it they're really nice people over there even the people who don't necessarily understand the need for us or want to work with any of us are pretty nice and i think if they can just be shown our culture and understand how it worked you know since the 60s and 70s they would have a much better appreciation for the people who did long before i came around to keep the history going and keep tabs on all this stuff so i hope it'll work i hope it'll happen but who knows i mean there's there's always been a sense of there's the above board of what's going on in the world and then there's the there's the underground and there's the black markets and there's the there's all kinds of things and so you know um they you know arrogance about what you don't know is a common human trait you know you get older and you get humbled by how much you don't know and by how many things get turned on their head about what you think you know yeah and the problem with them when they're trying to do the cannabis the cannabis you know i don't want to call it genome or whatever but like when they were doing it for say humans they could go to like pure Scandinavians oh yeah or pure aborigines you know or this or they could they could go and they could test so many different humans and they could build a basis yeah you know um and uh you know and and with cannabis they can't really do that yeah um and so no these people would never get invited to any inner circle tables anywhere because they're assholes about it and they get they wear it on their sleeve they do i mean i'll i've said this before on the podcast but i'll say it again um you know they like even right now that's the problem that you have with testing right is that testing to my knowledge you know testing for potency doesn't explain what kind of a high it gives me no not at all there's a lot of what what people consider 30 percent you know or 35 percent or something that we all consider to be extremely bland yeah and boring and it testing can't tell you why this high makes me want to like giggle and run around and crawl out of my chair and have a little anxiety yeah and why this high wants to make me pull up the covers and is warm and comforting and couch lock and easy potato chips i i i learned a new term yesterday i mean it's new to me obviously it's not a new term new to me term called biphasic and it it was used to describe cannabis i believe chimera said it he said the cannabis is biphasic remember um we've we've learned through science that you know things that are in the six percent uh i want to say he said 12 percent or somewhere in there have a more you know peppy jingly type high to most people generally speaking and things are you know that are in the upper 20s to whatever it can give you paranoia and then have a quicker descending high faster so it's biphasic i like that word i wanted to bring it in thanks i mean but the i guess the point that i was trying to make is that right now there's all this testing going on and they think they know what the hell they're talking about and they're not even testing for most terpenes yeah most they're not even testing for most cannabinoids yeah they're testing for the known ones that are the most common yeah and so if there's 150 cannabinoids or something and they're testing for 30 or there's hundreds of of terpenes and they're testing for two dozen yeah and they don't even really realize how they all blend together science is in its infancy on it and so you know science is the best tool that we have but like they only know what they know until they're proven wrong yeah i remember early on when cbd became a big thing i do remember that they were saying that there's no psychoactive effects or effect on the central nervous system with cbd so for a long time i didn't think that cbd like giving someone a large dose of cbd would do anything to them but i mean let's put it this way right uh the human body is one of the most studied parts of science because it's one of the most important things to us right because it's us yeah and what year did that israeli scientists discover that we had a cannabinoid system within our body oh i don't know who is uh um malutium i want to say malutium i think it was in the eighties was it eighties malutium i think it was in the eighties you could probably look it up no no i'm gonna say eighties it could be it could be i could look it up but uh uh i'm gonna say i don't think we discovered we had a cannabinoid system until i was alive oh really yeah it could be and so we didn't even realize that like that existed i don't think no i yeah it's it's really hard to to even figure it out because like it was a legal thing to research you know yeah yeah they go through so many hoops to even do it it's pointless so i don't know i mean they well that's the other thing too is that when it comes to cannabis and cannabinoids um they only allowed study for harm yeah so to prove that it was bad essentially yeah a lot of these phd's and stuff like that um like you know they basically it's like they get handed this thing that like no one is real no one has studied extensively in decades yeah and they think they understand it but they really don't yeah they don't no they just handed it and they're hoping to figure it out and they're smart and they're used to figuring stuff out but they they will eventually need people to figure it out correctly that have been doing it for a long time but whether they're gonna figure that out or not i mean i remember everybody was telling uh the company that begins with the P that was doing all the genetic stuff they're everybody that every consult was telling them this is who you need to consult you need to talk to this guy because he's really good with x amount of clones in the united states he can get you the legacy cuts at xyz and everything is spelled out for him and in the end all they said was no we're just crowdsource them don't worry about it yeah sure well i don't think they obviously had a different uh um goal from the beginning yeah you know uh i don't know i i think that in our lifetime uh it's going to be immensely changing what they discover about it yeah and i don't think that um ah here we go the existence of cannabinoid receptors in the brain was discovered in studies in the 1980s yeah yeah it's christian said 88 but they discovered thc in the 60s i think that was malucham the guy was referring to at the israeli um the israeli dude that was figuring out it shows how in 1960s they discovered thc in cannabinol yeah and that led to the 1988 discovery of the endocannabinoid system so they discovered it before they knew how it interacted with our brain and essentially the endocannabinoid system is the largest receptor system and the master regulatory of homeostasis in the human body there you go and we didn't even know it existed until 1988 yeah and that's not that long ago really not no it's not that long ago i mean i was like you know it's not that long ago it's only been a number it was already 40 and yeah it's only it's been a number it's only been a few decades really yeah three decades you know and and so how does that all interact or why does it do what it does i think phd's um are going to be shocked when they start delving into it and they think of something as simple and it's going to be like a lot of things that was spread by war and conquest and trade and move and migration human slavery and yeah and all there's going to be an enormous amount of of interest that pock because it's going to tie into all that stuff yeah which is kind of far away from feminized eating but you know that's all part of it i mean um i think the only other thing that was going to touch on a little bit and i think we've already touched on it pretty well in fact was the boaty thing i know that was big news this week and everybody was talking about it um boaty working with cookies he made the announcement just wanted to say again that's my boy i'm going to stick with them through everything y'all don't like it tough like i don't i don't think there would have been a breeder's syndicate without boaty i would have never started any of this stuff without him um i i you know if i get why people are are hesitant i've seen a lot of uh partnerships have gone down in in flames over the years i just hope if anybody can do it he can i mean the only thing i'll say on that is that um the internet is certainly a place where people can pile on sure um and i do understand people's feelings uh because and i'll say this um boaty has a special place in my opinion in the cannabis world sure and that he is pretty well universally regarded as a great human uh a traveler an explorer someone who brings back all kinds of oddball genetics yeah and that that aren't popular at all weird sativas and odd things from his travels and he preserves them in various ways and he's just a generally nice human and so a lot of breeders i know look up to him yeah as sort of an example of you know uh how to be right yeah and then he goes and joins the borg yeah right and so a bunch of people um you know while they wouldn't they wouldn't harsh on other folks for doing that that doesn't seem like it fits with boaty's purist you know adventurer you know heart soul spirit kind of person yeah um and the only thing i'll say to that is that in a rapidly changing environment um where uh you know where a lot of where there's a lot of change happening fast yeah people are trying to figure out how to how to adapt yeah how to survive how to move forward how can i make money ethically how can i you know how can i and well there's a bunch of people that aren't even thinking about how to make it ethically they're just thinking how to make it but yeah yeah yeah but um but you know but how to make it ethically is even harder yeah you know and it's hard to be an outsider rebel warrior who is never going to touch base with anyone that's larger or corporate correct because large corporate groups and large players and stuff like that are now for better or for worse they are going to have a not the only hand but they are going to have a stake in the cannabis industry moving forward yeah they are and so how do you interact with them do you try to work with them from the inside do you try to just lob model 12 cocktails against them and hope they burn and go away yeah that's my method that's what i do you know um and uh still gonna do it but you know and and so there's there's there's an impact there where you see a lot of different people trying to figure out well how do i move forward oh man the environment is totally changed the market is totally changed my sales are in the toilet this is how i support myself this is how i support my children what do i do how do i make an impact you know and so you know i will i will say that there's a lot of debate going on in the community about that um everyone's free to have their opinions about him sure to people that actually know him um you know uh he's still a good hearted good person yeah that's the core the day before he made that you you know and he still has dozens of lines that probably no one watching would ever grow yeah because they're weird and they're odd and they're from here and they're from Cambodia and they're from the highlands in Nepal and they're ugly as sin and he has a love of cannabis and he loves his family well that's just really it isn't it like the people that are upset all i can say is if you're upset about it and if you're worried that uh you know like the mainstream people are going to start seeing some of bodhi stuff there was a time where you could buy bodhi seeds and that wasn't happening and everybody had that chance to support him bodhi should have been more successful than cookies in my opinion he should have been way bigger than compound or any of them it doesn't make any sense to me and and people have that voting privilege with their money that's how we vote in our cannabis community is with our money we don't like someone we want to have gone don't buy their stuff that's it they'll go away eventually but we had that chance with bodhi and that we've had the chance with a lot of the bigger companies that we're going to watch slowly go away and people are going to get mad at their decisions for going away and retiring and doing all this or just still growing not selling seeds but we all had the chance to change that and not enough people gave a care at the time i think in my opinion you know if you look at it like this because you know uh breeders unfairly mostly but some you know a lot of them are regarded as artists in a sense um you know you watch some of these like uh acceptance speeches for oscars or whatever and a lot of famous actors though admittedly they took a bunch of crappy jobs for work yeah and they hope that they get successful enough that they can take some chances and make some really cool stuff every once in a while in between these commercially successful ventures um you know and you know i'm not a musician or whatever but if you're a musician and you want to survive it really helps if you make a hit single every now and again playing punk rock ain't gonna make you rich as i found out you know if you know like you know there's a joke oh i don't hear a single yeah right are you gonna get popular are you like because so there's an aspect of commercialism where sometimes you have to bend a bit in order to keep doing the cool stuff that you want to be doing exactly and you can be like oh this this artist should stay completely pure and not even touch capitalism but you know we live in a capitalistic society and and you know people are going to be weighing who to work with how to work with them what's ethical what's not can i change them from the inside can i do this can i improve things can i move it toward in my direction a little bit uh and i think that goes with a lot of art a lot of art i wouldn't have taken the chances but he did with that particular group i admit that like i wouldn't have done it but i'm but that's i'm very pessimistic about everyone and certain things maybe maybe there's a reason he's the one that did like maybe there's a reason he was there and he's the one that you know about that chance he's he's he's much more open to people not all being snakes and seeing the good people than someone like me so i would say that and i'm i'm glad he is matt matt's always telling me oh you should have expected that and i'm like oh i don't know he was nice you know i didn't see any of that and you'd be like oh dude you're good lord you're just you're just naive and so you know there i'm not even like i'm not even saying i like like matt i'm not even saying i defend the partnership necessarily i certainly defend the person yeah everyone is capable of making mistakes you know whether it's a mistake or not will only be known in time yeah correct you know um because cookie has a bunch of clout you know and so if um if we widen the gene pool like who who do you want them to work with seed junkie they already did that yeah exactly chris compound yeah you know like think about like think about the people they're already working with wouldn't you want somebody with the power and reach of cookie to work with someone cool and drink better things and try to have some better herb i mean that's kind of the goal and uh you know believe me i wish all of us artists out there were independently wealthy and were able to make every decision based on a strict series of ethics and a punk rock ethos of fuck the man yeah you guys see what happens you guys see my company over the years it doesn't work as a company like i it just doesn't you can't you can't just buck everyone it doesn't work there's a totally random story that i always think i talk about with matt because punk is his world not really mine but i remember watching this interview with the the lead singer and guitarist of suicidal tendencies and he was talking about how in punk rock they basically at some point want you in your 40s to be homeless dead broke addicted to heroin uh all your equipment doesn't work and you commit suicide via a bomb on stage and you go out just like a raging inferno to the man that's punk rock yeah and he's like you get a little older and he's like you want a guitar tech yeah you want to be able to sleep in a decent room the kids that you made you want to actually be able to feed them and maybe send them to college even though you're punk as fuck yeah you know i don't want to strap a bomb to my chest and diet 45 on stage everything breaking screaming howling homeless yeah but he's like that's what the fans expect of me and so there's there's always that push pull between art and and commercialism yeah and where on the line do you fall and you know some and a lot of times right um in order to make cool art you have to deal with commercialism yes and we got lucky for a time and that when 215 came uh cannabis for a while was quite profitable and the risk was lowered and it allowed this amazing burst of creativity and energy yeah where a lot of small time farmers could take their hearts desire and do whatever they wanted with and then we grew it to the point where it got popular and it went from underground to not underground and then big money starts coming in and rich kids and everything else and now all of a sudden the scenes all twacked yeah and then they give us hemp and all the hemp fields start growing weeding it everybody gets greedy now we got too much weed it's too cheap no one's got weed jobs and there you go corporate quality of weed has gone way down you know the quality and dispensaries is way down i mean it's a it's a big shift and so if he wants to survive you know everyone's looking around at how do i survive to be able to do more things that i like yeah and everyone out there is going to have to make their own generalized opinion about which steps are acceptable and which steps aren't i suppose yeah that's all within everyone's purview but um you know it was surprising to see the outpouring of anger because i just don't think that they expected it to see it from bode i was shocked because this was announced like four or five months ago it was a topic i wasn't super shocked to be honest because when it was announced they had burner had to turn comments off and he deleted the post yeah you know so there was a big outpouring of rage and then it kind of quieted down for a while and then you know then it happened and then it's getting released and it's getting released with this cd and da da da da and you know um it it's the community is split in a lot of ways right now yeah i think the the there's a fracturing of the scene um and there's a lot of new people jumping in the scene and they and and there's a lot of change happening and it's very it's it's very intense for people our age yeah that have been in it and it's been one kind of consistent way for some time yeah this is the this is the first real cannabis recession i think we've ever seen in cannabis period not just our age but any age this severe um i'm pretty sure yeah you know and and so it used to be it used to be a small subculture yeah um and and you know and now it's now it's like a it's going to be a ginormous industry yeah and with that comes changes and and uh you know somebody like burner couldn't exist 20 years ago no no because he's all scared out he's just all i mean forget about scared out it's just like there was no marketing of self yeah you couldn't be famous famous people got arrested yeah you know and and you know there you weren't able to market yourself that way and so there's just there's just been a lot of change and i think change will continue to happen and the important thing is that the people you like need to figure out a way to survive so they can keep making cool shit yeah well you know i think we've hit already the hour and a half mark and we started talking about maybe shortening the time a little bit sure let's do it so i wanted to real quick we we were starting to do different things like yesterday i put up a strain review for one uh Santa Cruz goat farm strains from pax so check that out we're going to try to be doing all kinds of like cool content like small things not so it's going to do smaller little talks too and try to get get more stuff going for everyone we just i think we're getting approved for the youtube membership stuff so we're going to incorporate that we have our super chats available now someone gave us our first soup to chat earlier so that was super cool i didn't even know if it worked them out so it's cool to see it work we really appreciate it from the bottom of our heart and um yeah i guess that's it go check out riotseach.com for all your seeds and spray not so dog you've got anything coming up you want to talk about or anything cool um maybe before next week okay i'll be i'll be quiet this week all right well it sounds good then i guess that's it all right hold on i gotta i gotta bring up the stuff real quick because i gotta have the exit song so oh man i gotta do this right right okay hold on hold up i gotta put up the thing the background first we gotta take this off and see you next week