 Hello my friends and welcome to another edition of running with Ryan today. I'm going running with a really awesome guy He's in town all the way from Lancaster, Pennsylvania He lives out there on a farm in the middle of Amish country with his family And he's got all sorts of cool animals and we're gonna learn all about one of the coolest animals Sherman he wrote a new book about him. It's called running with Sherman. Yes, people do run with donkeys It sounds weird, but it is a thing. He's also written a book called born to run. You may have heard about it. It's inspired Countless people all over the world to get out and run Myself included that inspired me to actually go down to the copper canyons and check out the Caballo Blanco race for myself That place has become near and dear to my heart. I absolutely love the copper canyons Ladies and gentlemen get ready for Christopher McDougal Here he is all the way from Lancaster, Pennsylvania What's up, I'm up. I'm awake. I'm out here in Boulder. Yeah living the gorgeous life, man Want to go for a little jog? Let's do it. First. I want to show that you're wearing the Luna sandals Look at that. I must bust these out because these are original pair of OG Leadvilles. No way You can see how like grooved and those are good today are yeah I told Ted man when he first gave me these things like I don't know how many years ago So it's a stop right here. You've got it. This is the perfect show He keeps redesigning different stuff, but to me. This is the only one I ever need. It's pretty sweet. Yeah Shout out to Barefoot Ted So you just said that Ted visited you in the Amish country Oh, yeah, so a lot of us from the whole born and run adventure. I've stayed really close I'm not here with Scott and Jenny, but Barefoot Ted actually showed up to visit me in Lancaster, Pennsylvania Just like dropped him among the Amish, which you know You want to talk about if an alien in a foreign culture Ted and the Amish? I mean they just stared at them like what like Martian are you? What is it? Did he bring his little one-wheel thing scooting around he did okay? Good old Barefoot Ted When you came out with born to run did you have any idea that it would have the impact that it did This is a weird thing to say Got the impact with the popularity. Yeah When I had that adventure I was thinking to myself Dude if this book sucks It's your fault This material is solid gold. Yeah, I hear the truffles Put the omelette. Yeah, don't mess it up. Yeah, absolutely. And so yeah, I just thought I had this amazing story my hands good morning and All I had to do is tell it right and why wouldn't people want to read it? It's funny Yeah bear for running chapter. I was that close to cutting it. Oh, really? It's the only chapter that isn't narrative. Yeah, it stops the story Well, let's just keep it in and see And you left it in there and it essentially sparked a barefoot revolution. I felt like that power cake Was ready to blow. Yeah, there's out there people were already suspecting it This whole running shoot thing was kind of hinky And that gave them the experience, you know, I put the idea Into a bigger context. Totally gave it validation. Yep And You not only wrote the book met Micah You know went on the entire adventure, but you also you ran the race that was that your first ultra. Oh, yeah How does that go? I mean you talk a little bit about it in the book Mostly you focus on Scott Narnofo, but you ran that race. So nine months earlier. I wasn't a runner at all Yeah, and that to me was One of the biggest surprises of the whole adventure was every step of the way I thought This is the last step, you know. Yeah, I can't run but I didn't say I can learn how to do this barefoot thing Well, I can but there won't be any race. Yeah, there's a race, but no one's gonna show up Yeah, yeah, so for me September Not running March, I'm trying to 50 Only tried it, but you finished the 50 miles and it's a hard 50 miles. It's hot down there Well, luckily, I'm okay with heat. Okay. Everything else was a major ass ache But you know, think about it was you know it. Yeah, so fun. Oh, yeah, you are so stoked. Yep I want adrenaline. Yeah, absolutely. Good morning guys. Hello and Being down there for me the race is great But it's everything that surrounds the race. That's so magical right the canyons the people Mama Tita's beans. Oh my god. There's pancakes, dude. The rest of the and born to run That's making so sorry. I'm good. Oh, I should cook with her one morning Oh, you did just to learn the recipe And it's amazing because you talk about that restaurant in the book and then when I went down there Oh my god, this is a real place and there's Mama Tita and the beans and guacamole or as good as they say it is My life is different because of that book and I can't say that about a whole lot of other books besides like Clifford the big red dog or something. Yeah, it's actually the only book. I've ever read twice. All right. Yeah Anyway So thank you for that. How you feeling? Little, you know Altitude, yeah, we got some of that altitude in your face up in here. Oh, yeah You did like showing already to my eyes like bulging. You wrote a book. It's called running with Sherman. You essentially saved the life of this donkey that was Kind of left for dead and you gave him a purpose in life So let's let's just kind of start at the beginning of how it all happened. Yeah Yeah, let's do it See now we just catch our breath. Yeah, we just enjoy this beautiful scenery look at this This is my backyard So so grateful man. So, yeah, the thing about it is that coming from basically zero sea level, yeah This altitude makes me suffer Other people doing a hamlet pretty well. Yeah, I'm not one of them. So we're running with Sherman You know, we took these donkeys from Really like 200 foot sea level. Yeah up to 11,000 for a Fair play. Yeah in the first day. We're there We weren't like this far. We're like a half a mile. We're like, oh my god And the thing about it is the donkeys they didn't have a problem with it and What you're trying to do with a donkey is Persuaded that everything's cool. Yeah, they sense you in distress that tells them something's wrong There's danger out here. And so to get them keep running you gotta be like The second I start breathing like whoa It must be a mountain line That's funny. So so quick tell people what people probably like what are you doing running with a donkey? Not everybody knows about this whole donkey running world. Okay, you're good. All right So what happened was We live in a place called Peach Bottom, Pennsylvania. It's an Amish farming community and We got wind that there was a guy Holding a donkey in a little stall. Yeah He's a hoarder and our neighbors wanted to get that donkey out of there They're desperate to get him out and away from the hoarder But they didn't know where to place him because everyone else is a real working farmer. Yeah, they don't have time or food For some hobby animal But we did yeah, you know, we're just some small-time farmers a couple little sheep and goats So you said you want this donkey? I mean, I didn't know any better make sure I got kids. Yeah, I'll take a donkey. Awesome. Everybody's wanted a donkey. Who would say no to a donkey? Yeah, let me see this animal. I think he's in horrible shape hosts that sort of form to can't walk and so Good morning. Have a great day for you guys And the thing about donkeys is they have to move they're creatures of movement But they can't move they can't digest they can't live So look at this idea of like, you know Like what if We can heal this donkey I can make him my running partner Get him out there doing a few miles every day and then maybe I knew but the bird races in Colorado. Yeah, well guys line up With their donkeys and they'll do like 29 miles Run inside by side with their donkey and that became Like my kind of goal of my dream. Yeah, take this sick invalid heal it train it And then you go get my ass kicked in a fair play Colorado. Literally two asses. Yeah Yeah, one donkey one jackass and did you have any experience with donkeys with animals of this size before adopting him? No, uh, so And now I moved out of Philadelphia to Lancaster Never had pets growing up in Lancaster We took in a few animals a couple sheep goats for my wife to milk You don't train the sheep. You just stick them out in the fields. Yeah So No experience and never try to train anything and Also the donkey You just went basically to Olympic level. It's not like a chihuahua. Yeah. Yeah, this is the most stubborn animal on planet earth So we're gonna walk now. We're gonna uphill. All right training a donkey You've set yourself up for masterclass MMA style combat And that's what we got into And you know, I haven't read all the book I skimmed through it recently And it's one of your more personal stories. A lot of the other books are about other characters. Good morning. Good morning This one's about you talks about you falling in love with your wife. It's it's really sweet How is it was it for you to to be more vulnerable in this book? It was hard. It was uh Something I've wrestled with actually from the beginning with born to run. Yeah, you know when I first wrote born to run I turned into my editor And he's like, I gotta see more of you. You're not even in this. Yeah, of course. I'm not in it You got jen and billy. Exactly. Scott. You got a runoffo. Yeah, you got to buy a market. You know, I'm the least interesting guy We had a thousand miles of that story. And he's like, that's the point these people are so Outsized, you know, there's such X-men mutants That they need uh A normal human as the access point. Yeah, I got it I put myself into born to run But as you say, it's mostly a Scott normal football. Yeah, I'm like a bio book to be honest. Yeah, true and then Natural born heroes. My editors are the same thing That's about I'm running about world war two resistance fighters, dude. I'm not put myself in that class. Yeah and finally With running with Sherman I finally got what he's talking about. Yeah, it's not saying that you're as good as these people. Yep it's showing the reader What your experience is like. So it's one thing to say, oh here's barefoot Ted So another thing to say here. I am with barefoot Ted. Yep. Here's like what it's like to get this tidal wave tsunami Of a human Yeah of a human So it's running with Sherman There are two things one was this really was my story. Yeah, and secondly, I thought This is like the next Evolution for me as a writer if I can do this well Then I'm really telling the story the right way. Let's have a quick moment to enjoy boulder. Look at this beautiful view Thanks for turning me around. Yeah, look at that. So that's the pretty part right there Got the flat irons. This is Wonderland Lake Flat irons home of my my last arrest Do you know about this? No, I don't let's hear it. Can we record this? Oh, yeah for sure. Okay, so um what happened was I was here for I think it was a paperback tour for born or run. Okay And so we had this thing because you know that amphitheater that greedy amphitheater up on flat iron So we had this thing where we started boulder books and we'll run up to the amphitheater And everyone could sit there and I should do the book talk up there like, you know, it's like Sophocles, you know Except and I got a permit for the um auditorium But you need a permit for the trails any run more than like 20 people you need permits I didn't know this and then like the day before the event I got a call from like boulder police saying I understand you're doing this trail run You're expecting 100 people You need a permit. It's okay. Good. I'll do it. It's like no, you don't have time. It takes like two weeks So we did it anyway That's the way to do it ask for Forgiveness not permission So what we did was you busted up into groups of less than 20 and we just came out from all sides Like, okay, you know legally I'm following the rule and there's a park ranger up there Really? He goes, are you Chris McDougall? And I said like no I'm barefoot 10 No, why do you want to know is like this your thing and I'm gonna all define He's like here's your citation. You know, really? I'm gonna see you in court He said to me basically he's like either you identify yourself or you're getting in the back of the car and going downtown He has his hands sitting on his gun. What? Yeah a ranger? Yeah. Wow. That's Jenny Jenny Jorker who's there So uh boulder takes itself too seriously sometimes. Well the thing about so I'm all indignant. I'm all like, you know, keep boulder We're free. We're probably could boulder. Yeah, you know fight the man And that's not the sand rock. Sand rocks like look dude. Oh, hello, you know There's a rule in your broken. Yeah And he's no pushover. Yeah, there's a rule you broke it so you can do one or two things You can you know be a dick or you can just admit you made a mistake and and take the hit That's good life advice. That's great advice. Yeah, so that's where it all happened. That's what we're talking about right up there And Jenny took this great picture of me like like this and it kind of like, you know So these houses it's like this place like impossibly expensive Oh, yeah, so the average the average family home in boulder is one million dollars So these ones are not your average. These are the big boys These are probably 1.5 to 2 and a half You gotta sell a lot of books to buy one of those houses make a lot of youtube videos You're right here people I'm running with Sherman. So I Don't have a whole lot of experience with donkeys. I've actually seen some down there in the copper canyons Yeah, but they're known as very stubborn and difficult to work with What did sherman teach you through this whole process? Well, number one that that's a misconception Okay, and I think there's a life lesson for you. Okay good These intractable problems you find morning You gotta ask yourself Not what's wrong with that guy. Yeah, what am I doing wrong? Yeah What am I where have I not tried and so with the donkeys? Coming into it from a place of ignorance. I'm trying all the wrong things yell and hollering pulling and now Much later in the process. It's all about the tool tool kit. Yeah So I got now a flower and it's never the same run flowers are a giant mammoth donkey And she'll do different things. Yeah, I just keep pulling different tricks out of the bag So I run to one side run to the other I'll get up on top of her. I'll get next to her. That's what I learned is Every creature is Your potential partner. Yeah, not your slave of your pet But your teammate If you treat him like a teammate If I come out with you and you get a headache in your bad mood I want to do one run You want to do something else, you know you compromise you adapt You don't just insist and push So what we started doing with sherman was We went to run with him. He wasn't having it even a little bit. He wouldn't even leave the front yard And then finally clicked on my head This is an animal that had been kept in isolation In a shoebox For years. Yeah, and now he's in a green meadow surrounded by Other sheep and goats through his buddies The last thing this guy wants Is to be by himself Why am I pulling him away from his friends? Yeah, I expect him to like this So we uh We tripled down We got two more donkeys And my poor wife who's a hula dancer not a runner Signed on so I run it with her own donkey. Oh, wow. I know dude. Holo fame. I love it. Holo fame And so once we created a herd Me and Mika and our friend Zeke Sherman flower Matilda Game changer But it was me like saying I said to me hammering on you got it. You got it Is understanding. Okay, where's he coming from? What's he want? And then changing it and it just made everything greater not a lot of people know about the history of Burro racing like why do humans why what why do they do this? Yeah Why the hell they do this there's a lot of questions I have about humans But this is one of them. I know you could answer This might be the ultimate why question of all the things you could do with your life at the time Why a donkey in the mountain? Yeah, exactly. So The story goes that back in the 1800s these prospectors Which stray gold up in the mountains up in the Rockies and you throw all their gear in the back of the donkey And then run to town Fast as they could to register the claim. Okay. So now you got a bunch of You know minors with gold jangling in their pockets hanging around town Fast-strong runners and say start racing each other up in the mountains and back, you know betting all their gold. Yep So that's that's the the mythology. Okay, and the tradition continued in the 1950s They turned into an actual race, you know the Leadville Fairplay world championship pack bar race 1951 It was wherever was 24 miles or so up and over mosquito pass where you run from silver dollar saloon in leadville up to the prune statue in fairplay and to be going on ever since You can make an argument You know people say that the oldest marathon in america is the boston marathon but bullfucking shit It's the oldest marathon for dudes Yeah, it's not the oldest marathon for all americans. That's true because women were not allowed but here first barrel race marathon Women were right there and they've been there ever since and this whole adventure Sounds like a sweet little animal love story, but it was tough man. We had a lot of Bad luck and I don't know if it's bad luck or good luck. Yeah, you know, I can't you got Where's the glass half floor half empty because we had bad luck But we immediately have good luck on top of it. So I've counted five broken bones and one broken marriage And one suicide attempt because in the course of this story. Really? Yeah. Yeah, you'll see man. It's crazy But every time I would drop an anvil on my foot Somebody would step up and help out. Yeah in a big way. So one thing was how he didn't get the donkeys for peace bomb to Fair play morning And he's two wild ladies 172 almost 58 about all about five foot three From virginia. Okay volunteer to drive our three donkeys And they're hardcore right wing bible something red state conservative ladies and I ain't any of that and the three of us were locked in a truck For two days Wow three donkeys in the trailer We had a ball. Well, I bet you did Sounds like the Beverly hillbillies part two with donkeys Also, I just noticed there's a helicopter above us. Did you pay that ticket over for flag stuff? Are they out here for you? It's the oj run. There's a helicopter It's here for Christopher fire up the Bronco, man. Let's go AJ Cali How much are donkeys way? Well, she flowers north of 700 700. Okay. Wow the little guys are 150 to two. Okay. So that's a lot of weight to To move for however long in 29 miles for some of these races. They handle it. No problem Brad won. He's one of these guys from here who really meant toward me like a boss too and He says the donkey can go 60 miles at a clip No break no problem. Wow And with almost no water, huh? They're like camels like they store a ton of fluids in them. So Yeah That's fascinating. Think about that 60 miles. I just and think about it is that I don't know if you saw a little You saw a little video last night, right? Mm-hmm Donkey rhythm, you know if you want to get your running form stored it out run with the donkey. Yeah, it's a It's totally rhythmic, man. So what'd you find yourself doing? You know you find yourself running straight rhythmic hitting around popping up I can be sloppy when I run, you know, like like this kind of stuff. Yeah, exactly So it's really cool. That's great. Who would have ever known the donkeys are great coaches for running for him, right? Right Oh, I think I asked about that netflix. Oh, yeah. Yeah, um You sold the story. Does that mean it's going to be a a movie or something or a documentary? that's gonna be a feature film and Oh, it's cool. Here's the view again. So here's what I know and it's not a lot but it's kind of exciting They got a advanced copy. They got a copy of the book before it was edited. Wow my agent just sent it out to netflix and reason-wise because They need family content. Mm-hmm. So yeah, sent it to them. They bought it. Boom. I edited Rough draft and I'm meeting with a screenwriter this friday when I'm in la to talk it over so You know, congrats. That's huge. Oh, it's cool. Yeah, I tend to sort of pump the brakes until It's actually already happened. You know, yeah, exactly. But because we've heard this one before McConaughey is going to play kabai obama movie, right? Yep, your website says that still by the way. Oh, yeah, well, you know Until it's proven false. I mean hasn't not happened yet, right? Yeah. So is there any development on that movie? There's always development for no movie. Gotcha. So yeah, uh, uh, they were supposed to roll cameras in may this past may Didn't happen and I'd say, you know There's things in your life out of your hands. Yeah, good guys And not worth the mental energy. I got enough in my life. Yeah, we're out like, hey, what's going on? So we're talking about the born to run film adaptation McConaughey was slated to to be the lead. He was going to be kavao or scott kavao. Okay Let me throw something at you, Ryan. See what you think. Yeah So when I wrote Born to Run I had access to this treasure trove of Masterpiece photos. Yeah, Louis Escobar's photos. Yeah Well, you get arguably say are some of the greatest running photos ever, wouldn't you? Yeah, I was totally I mean Top 10 the photos of scott and ornulfo side by side. Oh epic I feel like that's she'd go up in like a time capsule Daily and culture run my camera beautiful beautiful gorgeous pictures. Yep, and uh I shared them to my editor. He's like, yeah That's not the story Living people's minds. Really? Yeah, huh? Why give them an image? Then I had their own image. Okay, and I processed that I said, you know, I've never actually read a book Where the photos actually helped. Yeah And so he sort of flipped in the middle. Oh, it's not my thought. Oh, he's shorter than I thought whatever. Yeah and so with this movie I kind of had this feeling like Maybe this is all for the best. Yeah, this story Is A moment in time that I was really lucky to be Boogie boarding along with you know, all this stuff's happened. I'm hanging on the boogie board. Yeah, let it be, you know Kind of like surfers are totally passes. It was his own work of art Never be repeated. Yeah, morning And that is kind of the magic of the book Is that you do get to form your own visualizations of what the canyons look like and what these Native Raramaery look like. Yeah Gliding through the air with their sandals and the dresses flowing in the wind and Yeah, yeah, so You know, I try I leave it Um, I'm happy you tell with the book Let it be. Okay That's good That's good life advice too. And you can only control what you can control and yeah And it's interesting when you go morning. Good morning When I went down to the canyons, there's quite a few gringos that go down there now, maybe 75 to 100 ish And you ask them Why they're down there and they're all of them will say I'm here because of the book And the book is your book. It's almost they talk about it like it's the bible I'm here because of the book It just goes to show What a Gripping story it was and you know, I'm getting my mom to read that book and she's not a runner at all And I'm like, you don't have to be a runner to like this book Yeah, I'd say sort of I wrote that for non-runners. Yeah to me this best sports films Are About sports. I don't care about yeah off Couldn't give a shit. Yeah, I love tin cup White men can't jump bull dorm to me the best art About a sport He's designed for people who don't play the sport, you know and born to one run was so influential natural born heroes What do you hope people take away from this story? You know, it's funny a friend of mine read the book Not a runner not an animal person And she I love it And I said cool. I wrote some feedback. What do you love about it? It's a book about joy. Yeah, like bam. You're so smart. Thank you. Yeah, and I think that's it. You know I was on this run recently in Hyde Park in London and I had an event across town I saw I was gonna run the event, but I really didn't know where I was going. It's getting dark I'm afraid the parts are actually gonna close and I'll be climbing the fence It's cold I'm stressed Then all of a sudden I was like, whoa, dude You're in Hyde Park. Yeah It's beautiful the sun is going down You're going to an event with people who like you How is this bad? Yeah, exactly. How's this a bad moment in your life? I had this thing which I had first Come up with horn donkey run and I forgot about which was Oh It's a glassy smooth lake. Oh, man. I'd learned this with the burrows. Yeah, there's one time we're out in a run It's hot. Hungry thirsty Flowers fits in around not running turning circles and I'm like starting to steam man. Like I don't know dude You're out in the sunshine with your wife and your friend and your donkeys Make a fucking breath Anyway, remember I had this this mantra that was which is that The run is perfect when you start. Yep. The moment you start the run is perfect and you got you go one or two ways You keep it perfect or you can mess it up. Yeah I think the way you mess it up is you bring all of your preconceptions What the run has to be well someone else ran this on straw in 25 minutes. Oh shit. I'm at 26 You know I suck. I suck. Yeah, exactly. I gotta pick it up. Yeah Instead of whatever it is is what it is. It's perfect. It's perfect. I love that and so morning That's my goal is to make everyone perfect because See you dog at the dog. Yep, find out about algae in the pond You know and breathe some fresh air enjoy the Leaves on the ground and take it for what it is. That's why I like running in general I've been running all my life is yeah, it's an opportunity just to get outside and Just be free like the run run free. I mean this moment dude. Yeah, right now It's a Tuesday morning. Yep And the rest of the world is doing whatever. Yeah, what are we doing? We're having a great time out In the boulder open space. Hopefully People who we run with Sherman is to ask themselves. Okay. Well, I don't have a donkey. Yeah, what am I gonna do? Yeah, and there are a lot of programs around the country Where runners can volunteer with rescue shelters and they're trained to run with the shelter dogs Oh, I know guys Philly Is now hot to 57 dogs He is personally had adopted no way he takes them out to different running clubs or in the Philadelphia area He does it three times a week And you'll take a different dog to a different shelter. I'm sorry to a different running club. Yeah, and 34 people show up and they'll be running with this dog and People like falling in love with these dogs and adopt them. So There's so much going on here. So imagine You know, oh man, I'm stressed. I'm tired. Everybody don't want to run but Find a run at dog system in the cage today. True get some out the door does his run The dog loves it the people in the running group will go berserkers. Yeah, so I'm hoping This kind of initiative can really gather momentum You know running clubs partnering with these shelters Getting these puffs out For the exercising Socialization. Thank you so much for doing this. I really appreciate it. My man This is blessed. Thank you for writing all the books that you write And just being a good human, you know, we need more you I'm not sure about that man. You mean we're gonna check and do a little survey Okay, I don't know all about your history, but from what I do know you're a really good guy and I appreciate that Open your random sample before you make a commitment there All right, so everybody out there Give him a high five go buy his book go buy any of his books His first book was called would girl talk or something girl trouble girl trouble. That's right. Yeah Go by running with Sherman. Yeah, and get off your couch and go out there and run and maybe bring a donkey with you next time What do you say? All right guys, thanks so much for joining in joining in. Yeah, you're joining it. You're joining us We're in again. They're they're joining us in