 So please tell us a little bit about the early life, the early gay life you experienced in London. What sorts of places and things did you experience? Okay, well, again I'll have to backtrack slightly. The first London experiences were trying to find anything sexy anywhere. Okay. So as a very gauche 17, 18 year old I used to go trolling around Soho just to see what I could find. Just being the Soho Square and all these sleazy side streets with porno magazines, shops and stuff was really quite exciting. In those days you could actually look at them. Later on it turned out they've shrink wrapped them all so you couldn't see them. So that was where it started and then at some stage, I can't remember exactly when, I thought I'll try a strip club. So coming off the street and there was this woman sitting at the bottom of these middle aged women sitting at the bottom took me money. And then going through another door and they wanted some more money. I said I'm just bloody paid. I said I'm not paying twice. I haven't got no money. Oh well go on then because they could see us quite young. And that was a straight strip to see. It was actually quite exciting having a woman taking all their clothes off in front of you from about four foot away. And then I found the name of a cinema. It was a Bijou. Around the back end of Leicester Square somewhere I believe now. And in that cinema not much went on in the cinema but I did notice a lot of people kept disappearing off to the toilets. So I thought well I probably need to go and look. I might even need a wee. So that was quite interesting. But that was, well I was a young bloke then, that was more older bloke. In fact I got caught on to that by the first bloke that moved in here with me. That was that we bought the house with because he was a Bijou fanatic. Every time we went down to London we'd be off around the Bijou. And then having got round the Soho and also I used to buy or get all the magazines I could find. Gay ones, not porno ones I mean just general info type ones like Gay Times, Gay News and all these sorts of things. They'd had personal ads in which in those days were couched in careful terms. Like professional solicitor type would like to share his briefs with you and this sort of thing. Stuff that's all in your window. So I started placing one or two ads and answering one or two ads. And then I'd meet quite a lot of people in their houses or wherever. Some bloke did try to pick me up once just near Piccadilly Square. And I was quite happy to go with him but I hadn't got anywhere to go. I didn't have any hotels because I wasn't a rent boy. So that faded away, that was a big disappointment because he looked quite well hung. And clubs as such, I never did clubs a lot because well I suppose his studies got in the way a bit. And also I was never a great one for really late nights. But however what I did do, I gained through, see actually I got to know of parties that were going on. So I'd be off down to various London party venues, more so than clubs. I'd go into, I had by that time looked up gay bars and where they were and they were quite nice. And it was a good comfortable place to chat to people. In some ways they were better than they are now. Because now they're, if you like, fashionable for the straight world. So it's changed the whole sort of look and feel on this change. And he made no sense, he liked them as well. But declined. Saunas, that's the next thing I'm going to talk about because saunas. So again, went to saunas more often. They were good. Used to enjoy saunas. So that's really what the early days in London were like. This would be, let me think what years would be. Well actually, probably not that early by the standards you're hoping for. But that would be around early to late 70s. It was most of my time down London. By the time we got to late 70s I was much more involved with my mate. And so I feel like the scene we didn't get in on as much. Which I did do most of the free time. Certainly before he moved up here anyway. The two years before he moved up. All weekends were his or mine. Just doing trips out and stuff. It was definitely improving. We did go to one or two of the clubs. Heaven and something else I can't remember. We then found out about SM Gays, I think. I'm not sure when they started. But go to some of their events. That was it really, I think. The world's greatest clubber. Because they do like the music. They stop playing rock and roll by that time. Do you even know where to find the publications that then led you to the places around London? Okay, well as I'd said. One of the CHE groups. I got to know people in then. The CHE groups and friends. They would know where pubs were. Because obviously there's some older men as well. And they knew some of the pubs in London that were gay. So you could go to the pubs. And a lot of the pubs stopped free of charge. Gay literature of the time. So gay news, gay times. One or two other sort of more contact type magazines. And you just picked them up on your way out. And that would sort of tell you where other places were. And then you could use that as a sort of chain reaction go from place. And then that would tell you where saunas were and things. And when you get to saunas you chat to people and they'll tell you where the other ones are. So it's just sort of grapevine, if you like. As much as anything. I think that's the main way it worked. I didn't have the internet in those days, of course. So it really had to be that sort of method. And of course if you met people at parties and got on then you could change details. And then you meet other people at other parties and carry on like that. The mid-1970s, which is the time you're depicting. Historically has been viewed as a very sort of swinging time in soho that soho was very free and liberal and lots was going on. How did you see the soho area? Well I did see it quite like that to be honest. But as much as anything I think that was probably optimism of youth because when you're young you see everything optimistically pretty much. And everything seems exciting. And of course the more you discover something new the more exciting that tends to feel. And it reinforces the idea that this is a good area. I mean I used to go in and around the soho pumps quite a bit. The main problem was not so much finding the venues but really connecting with people sufficiently to see them again several times start possibly relationships and things else was if you like a slightly harder aspect of life. But that's the same for Gallifogue these days to be honest. So I'm sure even with the internet I feel like friends on the internet but having friends that actually exist and that you get to know and trust that's different. So it did feel good and the laws had moved along a bit and the press was not quite as horrible. So it did feel better than it did in the 60s and of course before the 60s I was too young for anything about scenes I was much more into dinky toys and things. SM Gaze came up a bit ago in our discussion. Tell me how you accessed that and what that afforded you. Well when I said earlier about how I felt when I first got into the day of the tour which was just wonderful because I was with people on one and I always had liked the exploration of pain for pleasure. I mean it started as a self-interest that's the way I could put it which went quite away and then of course naturally after a while you want to meet some other people that like playing about like this and I do consider it in terms of playing about I don't consider it in any of the terms that would come on too late to use by the media and the courts and the police and so on but for me it was exploring as I said I used to have a quote pain is pleasure and that's how I used to see it because it doesn't appreciate you in door things it gives you a buzz so I'm in the modern equivalent of PNPs I can't say P is good honestly I think I'd rather just carry on with people than exploring pain so that's why I liked it and I wanted to find other people to try it with and on me I mean I was definitely a switcher I tried either way round if people wanted to try something and I didn't think it was going to be horribly dangerous there's only once I actually felt unsafe was I met one guy he was actually a hospital nurse trainee nurse or something I went out to his nurse's quarters once and he tied me up this was in a sort of bondage bit of a thing and then his eyes went sort of glazed I can't, it's hard to explain but he was just almost not there he'd like someone to click to switch and suddenly I didn't feel safe and I spent the next quarter of an hour talking him out of continuing and could he sort of just untie me and I did actually get a letter from him I left then, the following day I got a letter so he was sorry it's just a problem he had with it sort of thinking because there are dangerous people I'm not saying he had any ill intent as such but it just felt totally uncomfortable whereas I always wanted to be comfortable with the people I'm with you get more out of it if the two of you are feeling relaxed and comfortable so we explored the gay world SM Gays I can't remember where I found out about that but as soon as I heard it existed oh I know, it was some friends of ours that we'd met through our transport interests that's right, they belonged on the transport group that was a gay group, still going I believe what group is that? it's a group of gay folk who are interested in well it says transports but essentially they're trains and trams whereas to me transport is trains, trams, aeroplanes, ships sort of all transport and they also there are what you'd call a few sort of geek timetablers and charming the roots and all this sort of but that's them if that's what they want to do good luck to them we used to go to that, they used to it was much like a sort of transport version of CHE you'd meet round people's houses there'd be slideshow presentations you'd meet round people's houses and there would be slideshow presentations and talks and so on so that was there and then obviously with some of the members you'd get to know them a bit but all your fans see them a bit, let's be fair so you start chatting them up and in particular I chatted up a lot I used to go round and see him quite a bit and he knew someone else in London and it's going down to him that I found about the SM Gay thing and this they used to meet I think it was under Vauxhall Bridge it's one of these sort of arches type places and I'd go along to that and that was nice because that was basically SM related folk so you'd have lots of leather gear guys people would be bonded to have some games equipment you know cages, slings all the usual sort of gear nothing, they didn't have for instance lots of sex toys because I think infection risk would be too high in something like a club which was basically a club but certainly you could stick someone up in a swing or tie up to a cross or whatever you wanted to do plus chatting and all the rest of it so it was a nice atmosphere and that of course is a little bit like a sauna except you haven't got to go through the rig and I would be explaining what you like because the very fact that you're in this club that's SM based means they know fair enough that was of course, I've forgotten this that was the days of hanky codes I suspect your followers are familiar with hanky codes there used to be a whole list of them must have been awful, been colour blind but that was quite exciting as well and I used to have a variety of hankies depending on how I felt such as red pale blue which I think was wendlin I'm sorry I mean we really rubbish these days but I had a variety of hankies shall we say and they used to pop me in left and right pockets according to choice and so on the only thing I wouldn't ever do was any drugs apart from poppers cannabis was alright I didn't smoke, I've never smoked but I'm not averse to parties that had cannabis because it always used to have a nice sort of sweet smell to the rum and you'd drift off into a sort of, not a haze exactly it's not really high it's a sort of very relaxed state with cannabis and poppers and things well no, poppers isn't up and cannabis isn't much relaxed so that was alright, I didn't mind any of that but I wouldn't ever try LSD and all these things not for any moral reason because I was too much of a coward I wasn't sure that I might enough try and jump out an upstairs window to fly and have people in apprenticeships and aircraft industry and I'd already discovered that no matter how much I've flapped my arms I can't get off the ground and I carry on doing that well into my 60s I had to give up after a bust my shoulder one day so that was it, so that's where I found SM Gays and after that it was like as before you just get to know people and other people and then you'd have different groups and maybe little orgies I started doing they used to do orgies at this place as well definitively sex nice this was still against the law at that time because it was still counted as the more than two people then and it was private in the sense that certainly in the early days you had to be a member to get in that's the way they got around a lot of the laws was making the membership clubs which I think all to the position slightly but I couldn't tell you in exact what detail but I'm sure if the police had wanted they would have raided it book shops they used to raid regularly in those days trying to find obscene literature like pictures of men with erections that sort of thing and that was it really what attracted you to even the concept of SMGs oh well it's fact that I knew I liked pain and pleasure scenario in life and it was a good place to find like might as the court said later like minded people they made it sound horrible but in fact I thought it was wonderful so I found other people that liked the sort of SM that I enjoyed I mean I was never into beatings or anything particularly I like CBT TT and all this sort of thing was much more me bondage, well it's too much hard work but now it's doing them up and then they can't do anything I'd rather have them like loose and naked on the floor and then get on with doing what I want with them or telling them what to do this sort of thing so that was much better that's much more me now how did you qualify for membership to SMGs in those days almost everything that you had to be a member you literally signed a small bit of paper as you went in the door so it was rubbish it wasn't being a membership it was actually a way of getting round the law to say the place is private it's a bit like porno cinemas when they first started they had to say when they became all common member of the cinema or something but it was literally signed a bit of paper saying I'm a member I think there was a rule about you to wait an hour or something to make sure you're a proper member and not just coming in off the streets I mean obviously if you're going to do something you I can see that you would need to have been interested for at least an hour it's all rubbish so it was just a way of bypassing stupid rules you told me when we were preparing for this interview that you're more SM than you are leather would you please explain that how do you see the difference between these two things I think leather people enjoy not just the look but the feel and the whole experience of the dressing up and if you like the sort of power look a lot of leather guys like I mean I can give you an example of how the power looked right in the shit out of me when I was younger we'd gone off with two other friends to California for a holiday for a couple of weeks and we were in San Francisco and we decided we'd visit a bar that was just up away from where we were staying and we went into this bar and it had a sort of island serving area with high stalls around it and it was virtually filled up with head to toe leather guys with their hats and chains it actually looked brilliant you know but it scared the shit out of us because we thought this is a dangerous looking lot but there were a couple of suits still spare so we sort of tended to be like could we sit here oh yes love have a seat and after that we didn't feel at all scared so I think for a lot of the leather guys they like the look and the feel and I'm not averse to it because I used to have leather gear at one time I used to dress up but to me it wasn't the most important thing the most important thing for me was alright being in leather gear and looking like a leather guy introduced me to more people that might be into SM because a lot of SMers there's more SMers in a ratio I'd have thought in the leather scene world than there are in the ordinary game world so it was a good way of meeting other people into SM but personally once we'd done the sort of early club type interactions and things I'd rather just get all the kit off you know so it was it looked good, it felt good I could see why people really liked it I never wanted to march around as a Nazi or anything like that I don't want to people did I never quite saw that myself because given that gay folk were persecuted very badly by the SS and the Nazis I couldn't quite see the attraction of it unless you're a royalty of course in which case it's family history isn't it some of their princes have had silly days but no I still quite like leather I like the smell of leather and the feel of leather, new leather I think is a wonderful smell and that's also evocative for people people may have got into the scene in the first place may well have had some leather based experiences in childhood like either perhaps even been beaten or something with a brand new strap or you know that sort of thing where they've I mean I even used to like the smell I mean it's called satchel when it was new in fact I remember saying to someone they asked me about smoking do you smoke this is a health person do you smoke no I said I tried it when I was about 12 and I didn't like it so I gave it up I said everything I liked at 12 I'm still doing and of course smell of things I still like the same way so yes I'm sure for the leather scene it's hard of course I like motorbikes a lot of them and that was a bit of a quandary for me I wasn't the first to motorbikes per se but actually I was more of a mod in the younger days for dressing I dressed more as a mod and made a scooter and I nearly got doffed over once when I was out and about some rockers turned up on their motorbikes and were not at all friendly but I said to them and it was true I said I don't like mod music I said by and large I can't stand it I like rock and roll then the 50s and 60s rock and roll that thing and it still is so that saved me for that so that's where again that's I think the motorbike scene for a lot of leather folk come from and of course a lot of those are straight anyway so the leather scene encompasses all starters of society urges and I'm sure the look is a lot to do with it the only weakness for a particular uniform I've ever had is for the Canadian Mounties I also thought they looked wonderful and they're sort of red tunics and silly job put things in one of my hobbies I've got some Canadian friends and I wanted a higher Mounties uniform to greet them when they're cold but all you could get was fancy dress ones and they were rubbish they looked rubbish so I'm not bothering with that I wouldn't have been able to get a horse but yes I'm sure for the leather world it's the look, the feel and I'm quite happy with that I enjoyed that and I did enjoy my leather gear when I had it although I was a bit lazy with doing boots up that's another voyage having a slave of course they can do all that rubbish but you have to put mine initially and the dogs rubbish at tying up my bootlaces so I prefered I liked the actual physical sex side more than the dressing up there are two different elements there I find oh I thought you were going to expound briefly no I'm just acknowledging so one led me to more people that would enjoy the sex F7 side that I liked more they've had protest marches and things after that stuff and they had the pony cart folk they used to dress up and use them as ponies and all the little carts by the mistress that's great I've been to one or two straight SME type things and I used to go to swingers parties and things as well oh well I can feel the noose tightening even as we speak I hope I've answered that one you have how were you introduced to SME you mentioned the smells when you were younger but is there something to which you can actually pinpoint this was the beginning of it for me no not really I think the main thing goes back to where we started with a sense of loneliness I didn't have really many friends at all so if you can't play with other people you tend to play with yourself the more I did that the more I experimented and then I found that squeezing things felt good and pulling things felt good and twisting things felt good and playing with your nipples felt good so that's really where it started I can't say there's a moment when I thought oh I'm into SM and pain but due to a process of exploration as I was growing up pretty much isolated apart from during school days and things I did have a couple of clubs I started at school in order to qualify for membership you had to pop into the box and show she bum whole and it had the bonus of the sooner you applied the more you saw the more you were entitled to see all the other people that joined but they couldn't see you I got up to about four members I think and some prefects found us and turfed us out but that's the sort of thing I suppose in today's terms I'd be considered a sex mania at risk or something to anybody but I always thought it was just fun and harmless I'm pretty much sure the straight kids boys had more fun than I did in fact because they didn't worry people find it out if you see what I mean so yes it started very early days but I liked all the squeeze pull push bang squash everything else aspects of it and the more people I met that were into that the more I liked it and of course then you led into other things there was one epiphany moment that wasn't SM as such that was to do with sort of anal there was an 8mm movie some friends had once and the bloke was putting chrome balls up his bum and I thought wow that's exciting because I've never seen anything like that so you know straight back into the kitchen and see what's around and I found things around quite soon after that and that's where all the bathroom experimentation and everything started off we're not thinking back at it now it could have looked really bizarre so parents or someone had caught me but once I'd left home it didn't really matter because my mate used to go off to London to work so he'd leave quite early for a train I didn't have to leave till later so an awful lot went on before going off to work so for the benefit of the audience whoever me someday watch this video we're here primarily to explore the circumstances surrounding Operation Spanner and your involvement within that so before we get into any of the specifics around that would you give us a general idea about Operation Spanner