 Awesome. This is Pete, Jerry, and Jordan meeting to discuss tiles and scrabble. There we go. So, Jordan and I had a really nice call. Was that just yesterday? I think that was just yesterday. It feels like it was very recent past. So, yes. And we kind of caught up a bit and talked some about this. We then the link I just put in the chat is my little collection of potential tiles, which I will just share on screen briefly. So here's tiles for Massive Wiki and Neo Books. We added a couple from our conversation. So, for example, Jordan, the way I phrase it here, make the Neo Book reading experience special so that it's different from just reading a Kindle book or just being on a website or something. And what I want to do is hear more about what you mean by that. We expanded the Transclusion Request to include cross Wiki requests, things like that. So one way to approach this call is to step through these, add a couple, and figure out where we go from there. I'm open to other suggestions. We should also talk about the funds available and so forth. And I have a, I think maybe realistic idea that the funds available will cover a way tiny bite into this list. So we kind of need to do figure out what an estimate of that looks like a good goal to shoot for is a proposal we can create to draw funds from the grant that says this is what we intend to do with the grant funds. Any other thoughts? It would be nice to capture in your brain related communities or related projects or something like that. There's Neo Books, Massive Wiki. I would actually add Cindy Coons, AI, whatever we were calling it, AI anthology. So why don't I do Massive Wiki, Coma, Neo Books and others, and then add a thought for the other communities. I'd love to. While you're adding those, for the sake of the recording, we have $6,000 remaining on a $18,000 or $20,000 grant that OGM has obtained. And so basically the framing here is to look across a few of the different pieces of work that are moving to see how we can finish out that grant. With the highest level of integrity we can and see if there's some what Jerry calls triple word scores. Some of the most valuable small pieces that we could we could accomplish with that $6,000 in order to advance multiple things simultaneously. I also like Jerry and Pete. Like it would be, I think, an interesting practice to sketch out some kind of a little budget or roadmap for what we would like to have happen beyond the $6,000. And then we can prioritize what we're going to do with the $6,000, but that's kind of a different story. Because then when we're communicating it's like, okay, here's the valuable thing we're trying to do and why we would love if there was, you know, $15,000 a quarter going to advance this roadmap. Here's kind of what would happen, but we have now a $6,000. Therefore, we're taking this next step. And if you'd like to see this, you know. And to add to what Jordan just said, Pete, that sounds like it bleeds directly into some kind of vision for Massive Wiki and what you would like to achieve with it or anything you want to prepare around that. I mean, that would be really great to have. And then second thought is, we should all be using Massive Wiki as much as possible for all of these documents, notes, comments, so that we should basically use the tool that we're trying to improve as we do this. So that, you know, if you do write up some, some nuggets around what and why and how this all fits, then we will weave them into the general context of what we're doing. So for that note on related projects, I would note, I think the heaviest users of this right now would be Linesburg Wikibooks, Neobooks, and the Massive Wiki project in general that's kind of empowering those. Pete, I always fail to spell Cindy Kuhn's name properly so I can never find her in my brain because sound decks doesn't work in the brain, like Google. C-Y. C-Y-N-D-I. I never do the Y. That's my problem. I never find her because I never do the Y. Good. And I'm going to connect it to AI builds hubs. Is that kind of the place to connect it? I wouldn't, well, connecting it to a thought or with a link. Yeah. Well, I could connect it to her or I could connect it to the project, which is my inclination. The project is now AI anthology. Okay. And the Kindle book is in review actually. It should pop out of Amazon in like 48 hours. Cool. Wow. That's awesome. There's an interesting, now that the team is in that position, it's interesting to see what the marketing minded folks are doing. And, you know, we're kind of like baby stepping into stuff. So it's still where the collaborators, six collaborators or whatever are asking each other permission or whatever. But Cindy took her chapter and ran it through a GPT to make a Medium post and a Blog post and probably a LinkedIn post. Kyle took his chapter pretty to depth a little bit for separate distribution as a PDF. And he was doing something really cool. People are making GPTs and stuff like that. So it's, there's a thing that we haven't gotten to in the pre publishing projects is post publishing. What do you do now, you know, it turns out, I think we want a clippings directory, you know, the book got mentioned here, the book got mentioned there. I sent five copies for, you know, review five print on demand copies, you know, to this publisher or whatever. Yeah, there's a whole bunch of stuff that could spin out that I've just watched, you know, April's book adventure over the last two years and I have I have an April's clippings that I just thought in my brain and anytime she gets a mention might drop the link in there and so forth and so on. And then April's talks and all of that. When we collaborate on documents have private links to the documents where we're collaborating on creating stuff so all of that's in there. So it could be mirrored easily on wiki wiki pages. Yes. An interesting thing I realized when we started talking about it is there's kind of inbound clippings and outbound clippings. So, you know, there's the things where you just notice it on the web and then there's the things where I'm sending out of, you know, essentially a press release to either a friend or, you know, an editor I kind of know or something like that. And that becomes more important when you're doing a collaborative work. When you've got like six co authors or something like that, because everybody who sends something out to somebody is kind of speaking a little bit on behalf of the whole group right so you want to kind of keep all coordinated. And it just reflects me that I'm, I'm kind of Pete and I are kind of representing the Neo books project. And there are other writers who are busy using Google Docs to write and but are willing and happy Neo books participants and we should consider what their needs are going to be and how those fit into talking about so Pete you and I should check in. Next Monday probably and and explain some of that stuff. Can you, can we detour just for a second, could you refresh my memory on one of the intersecting gravel board issues that I would like to hit one of those $6,000 scope. Although it's not, it's not, it's not mine necessarily but it would be needed we could do it, which would be accomplishing something that, you know, helps advance and satisfy the intention of that grant. And so, could you refresh my mind a little bit so so we were looking, I think that grant was looking at publishing in the form of podcasting at that point right. And so that was essentially the purpose of that of that grant right and we wanted what was kind of the defining milestone it was it was kind of getting something up and running with a little bit of structure and a couple a couple recorded or can you refresh my memory it's been a couple years. I want to refresh my memory by opening up the grant again but I think you're remembering it really accurately that that I was starting the weaving the world podcast and was going to run a couple episodes and then and then look up and see what was happening. Okay, great. And so one really interesting thing to do is three minds who are have a lot to weave are the three on this call. And so it would not be unrealistic for us as we have out this scope for you to record a podcast with me and record a podcast with Pete, and have those be the first two pilots. And kind of and and we could, we could talk about what that looks like but it might be that that if we set up whatever the scope is and if you don't want to. If you don't have a podcast set up yet we could we could use, we could use above the chaos or one that we already have set up if you don't have one yet if we don't want to set up a new one but but anyway we could have a couple outputs. Also, on the back end I mentioned to you just briefly. Pete and I are exploring how to use massive wiki. And as a back end to host wiki casts, which we could call in your brain neocasts and let's say those are the same general idea. And, and I can, I could show you what we have about but but Pete and I have maybe five podcast episodes up with massive wiki as the back end and so as we advance it at all at all kind of come together and be reportable out to that donor. I'm totally judging for Margarita now Pete you just like totally mean it. I want some chips guac and Margarita. It's got tiles. Oh tiles that's it you just search for tiles. That's great. So one of the items that I that I added to my brain when Jordan and I talked was podcast infrastructure for massive wiki. And a podcast is another kind of Jordan, the massive wiki, the way I'm using it as part of what I call the big fungus which is. Sorry, Neo books are mushrooms, which are the edible parts of the fruiting body of my CVL structure that lives underground and this this analogy I really like it fits really well what we're doing wickily and all that. So a Neo book is a mushroom that we could sell off as a book a Neo deck or presentation is a PowerPoint killer kind of thing and a Neo podcast would be infrastructure for doing podcasts in different ways, which could get way too involved. I mean, some of the things we're considering are multiple humans for a couple years writing code. Some of them are really, really simple and really simple. I think we can get there. Some of them are we adopt some open source code which is a bunch of individuals working for several years and incorporate it somehow as a as a useful thing. But and Pete, this is a little digression but I've been thinking this way a bit and I think you and I've touched this a little bit. I mean that the generation of any artifact like a book or like whatever is an application that rides atop the mycelial with massive wiki. And therefore, you could turn the massive wiki components into just about anything you could make them do whatever so one of my wish list items is a dashboard for authors of Neo books, something that would let you look at metadata, figure out the address on which chapters, what is the sequence whatever like that that would be an interesting artifact. Another artifact, sort of like that but but in presentations is the slide slide light table view slide table view. So you could actually move things around just by moving them around and it would just change the order of the pages on the playlist I mean it's not. It's really easy to envision. It's really, strangely not that much code, unless you start to get really fancy with it. But those are architecturally does that fit your what you're thinking about for massive because partly what I see as massive could be a many headed hydra where each of the each of the heads is some code gotten from somewhere that knows how to publish an ebook. There's a documentation generator like Pelican, but we've adapted it and here's how it works with this infrastructure etc, you know, a lather rinse repeat. It's an interesting question. Thanks, I think that the massive wiki vision, if they're kind of it's such a thing. It's a lot about being a good mycelial network. So it's, it's about using simple text and I'm going to say syndication but I don't really mean that I really mean kind of sharing or something like that sharing and decentralization right making sure that it's it's easy for people to do text authoring and versioning and sharing. So that's the, that's the core of the massive wiki vision. The rest of it is kind of icing on the top or something, you know, so it would be. I guess the use cases are a little bit like the use cases are outside the core vision, but a use case for instance is making, you know, I want to make a PDF out of all of my pages or I want to make EPUB out of all my pages. Or I want to, you know, have a playlist view of everything or a card sort of view of everything or those are all great things but they're not core vision. Okay, so how do I, how would you prefer I think about those things because those things are pretty important to me as part of my vision of how to use massive wiki, and I don't want to. I don't want to co-op what you're thinking I want to call, you know, basically blend really nicely with where your energy is and what you want to have done. I'm just extremely interested in rethinking how media works that like my main goal is not let's build another wiki and make it different and better, but rather, let's let's help people rethink how media actually functions in the world. And then let's be a pioneering example of that, not that there aren't others who've tried in different ways. But if we do it kind of together with a with a vision, and with some structure and with some goals, then people can come in and say, Oh, crap, I didn't know you could do that. That's really interesting. I'd like to funnel some funds into you. I'd like to join the project, whatever. And I think that us describing that vision at some point it with more clarity and more structure will be really compelling for the whole project. And we could sort of lead with that and that says, Hey, here's what this is. And we may want to give this little project its own little name for that reason, in part. But I don't want to trample your vision. I also kind of want to push you a little bit on the vision, as you know, as you know, from a couple decades of us playing together. I don't want to trample the vision because, you know, it is what it is. The other thing with massive wiki, I guess part of being a good my ceiling network is it should play well and adapt to whatever, you know, somebody else is doing to it with it. So massive wiki isn't my only vision either right so it fits with, you know, it fits with other tiles that I'm passionate about decentralized coordination, for instance, something something AI something I don't know exactly what that is but and new media is not quite one of my passion things but public like publishing technology and you know publishing infrastructure and distribution marketing of published information and all that that's that's core for me. Although those things are things that I like a lot, but they're not. I wouldn't call them massive wiki so maybe a different way to think of it as massive wiki is an important, maybe like for, you know, forward tile or something like that or eight word tile. But when you're talking about reshaping media, you know it's one of the excuse me one of the tiles that you want in the reshaping media thing but it's not. That's the reshaping media vision, and not the massive wiki vision. I think that's the way I think about it. And as far as I'm concerned, as as massive wiki serves as elegant infrastructure for all those other things we'd like to build on top of it, that's all great and it's working my see lily as it should so that's cool yeah Jordan any thoughts. Yes, I have thoughts. This is not a surprise to Pete or to me. I love this. Pete I love your discipline about thinking your discipline, what you just said embodies your concern for decentralization and scope and and proper coordination so I just wanted to flag that I admire how the discipline with which you're thinking about discrete objects and their purpose and vision. And, and how those overlap. So that's like a really important thing so cheers to you. That makes me want to, because I share with both of you. Some of the passions that were just articulated and they're on what I perceive as the critical path of getting, you know, voice and media out and consumable in a positive way to help inspire and lift up and coordinate humanity. It makes me think about how we go about maybe naming something that we're working on together that you know this is a piece of but that we can also advance the other pieces. And I'm available and open to be a dynamic member of a, of a team to help, you know, conceptualize and advance that. I want to show I'm going to show you Jerry just really quick. Just so you can see it and it's in the back of your mind and not hidden. As an example of Pete now using what's immediately available for podcasts and we for above the chaos are using Spotify for podcasters as the hub to distribute across the different feeds. We're also posting to YouTube and Twitter full length videos with YouTube and X currently. And then I'm using the Lionsberg wiki here with a basic format. And in order to do, you know, timestamps key concepts and ideas resources and links and then an AI generated transcript, which you could imagine in a context like Lionsberg wiki that has a million plus words and and thousands of interlink concepts like your brain. As we go through here and find this word regeneration, right, it's kind of fun to double tap it and to make it an object called regeneration that links out to that page in the Lionsberg wiki and maybe your brain and whatever right. So, so already just as an example of what we can kind of report back on infrastructure for podcasting. This to me is an example of a very rudimentary use but also very cool use that kind of shows some of that. Some of the power and then the. I love the idea of the modularity and recomposability of the key concepts and ideas that we're interested in exploring. And I share your vision. I think Jerry of how when we write about soil or regeneration or the Giants or big ag, or we talk about that on a podcast that's populating our shared knowledge around a concept that we're starting to get meaning to and the composability and repurposing of those into a speech or another podcast or a PDF or a book or whatever and the ability to reference I think it's really cool. So I'm liking where that's all headed. I love that I had not seen that I knew about the podcast to have a thought in my brain about about for your for above the chaos. But I didn't know that you were doing that is this just is this just a template that you're reusing and massive or is this metadata are you doing something a little more formal about it in massive because it would you could you could hack this by hand just by using you know head sub heads and a lot of work. I'm hacking it, I'm hacking it by hand using sub headset and a lot of work. So I what I wanted to do was was get, you know, five sample episodes up to to force, you know, to get Spotify for podcasters up to see how it was going to relate to and so I just yeah I created a template and then we're just doing it all by hand. And Pete you're probably your brain is likely chewing on how this could be made more interesting or more automated or something maybe. Jordan, I. So I think you'll end up with a page a blank one right and that's, you'd call that a template, you know, here's a page where I just exactly details. And then I can imagine. You could, you could make some kind of form application where you fill out a form and then, you know, it pulls the template and does that now nowadays actually I would do that with a GPT Athena. But there's interesting things to do from this spot. I'm thrilled you've got this much infrastructure it's really terrific. It's really great. Can you send me that link in the chat so I can add it to my notes into my brain. And then I can go follow that around and look at stuff. I think the, the making it link here is a fabulous goal it just takes a little bit of work and stuff. And it's funny, Jordan, I was I was perusing some of your wiki books and stuff like that. And I got to a page where you said that, you know, I'm using the NSB a lot and NSB wasn't the link. And I didn't know what NSB was. So in my brain I have versions of the Bible and I've got the Jefferson Bible, the Luther Bible, the Matthew Bible, you know, blah, blah, blah, I've got a ton of them. I had no cold knowledge of what NSB is not a part of my world. Beautiful example. Just to encourage you that when you say the first instance of NSB on that page, you, I would love to see your, your page on the NSB. Why, why you think it's special, how it's different, whatever else, whatever resources you want to point to outside, that would be a terrific addition to your, to your book. Yeah, it's so, it's so damn cool what what we're doing for that reason right because in the past when you've written something and you read it in a paper or it's like, I don't know how much meaning is getting lost. And that's a perfect example of how it's a lot, you know, and so if you're just reading a PDF like you would just skip that and whatever most people wouldn't bother to go look it up to your exceptional. But yeah, the ability to have all these concepts interlinked. And then, and then I love the idea of getting to where we're, we're finding people that we trust or whatever but we're starting to link like my page on the NSB and why after 20 years that's kind of my first go to with, you know, that can link to the link in your brain on versions of the Bible and what you know what you think is interesting or whatever. So all these things start to spiral out the web of knowledge that's amazing. Exactly. Exactly. And then go ahead. I have one more thought on trust, which is that there's something like humanness and authenticity that is going to become more valuable than gold or silver over the next few years as AI proliferates. And so you could imagine already was something like Wikipedia there's some amazing strengths in that. And there's an editing process that some people may or may not trust and as AI proliferates there's going to be more and more information with more and more issues of what's trustworthy. So I'm going to care more and more what Pete thinks about something when I want an opinion on something in his domain of expertise. And so I think what we're doing here is going to become like super, super valuable to be able to go to sources that have passed through somebody's consciousness that you that you kind of trust or admire. I'll just refund that for one second, which is that we are clearly in a low trust moment we're not in the lowest trust moment civilization has ever seen but we're in a word like tumbling toward a nader, not Ralph. And what one of my claims that I have little proof for is in low trust moments high trust activities and people and entities stand out more. So doing things in a high trust way in a trustworthy way will should actually work greatly to the favor of a movement or attracting people or being credible or whatever else. At some point, if we were to get successful will also attract people trying to stop that from happening. So we should just think about every now and then think about that and think about what defensive mechanisms or countermeasures we would like to implement to notice and then call out and then deal with people who decided that this method doesn't really work or shouldn't exist or something like that. Which I may never happen that would be great, but I like if we really succeed we're going to threaten a lot of people. Onward. Okay. Okay, cool. So, so one last thing I want to add before we leave because you just showed me the infrastructure that you've already built on massive for podcasts. I recorded a lovely interview with Darryl Davis, one of my heroes, and was halfway through trying to edit the transcript using descript, which I found really slow and painful, and my brain was really balking on it so I eventually laid it aside and didn't finish it. I should just go back I'm sure descript is better now. I've been paying them every month and not using them at all which is dumb. But I can go I can have a finished episode of the podcast with that as its currency we could record a couple things and add them in. And I don't know whether leaving the world is now the name I want to use or whatever. I can sort that out and make changes but I've got some material like right right they're just waiting to be applied to this method. I love it. Yeah. I have a comment there. Yes, please. And I wonder if you're using the script to transcribe or you're using the script to edit. Both I did the transcription using the script and then I was editing in the script, which lets you move the video blah blah blah blah blah blah. So, I never I've never seen the output of the edits I made because I just stalled out I didn't try exporting. The script is magical and it's also a pain. Oh my God. I had a revelation recently with the actually it's the plex interviews I was doing. If you've got if you've got clean audio and not too many people and you don't need a lot of edits whisper kind of changed my life. Because you can give audio to whisper and you get back basically a clean transcript without all the m's and Oz and stuff like that and you can use it. You can feed it back as a VTT a caption file if you want. Wow. But it the Jack Park interview for instance, I, I barely edited that. And it's nice and clean looking it's easy to read and stuff like that and there's, I don't even quite know how to describe it except, you know, gushing about it kind of the script was always really hard and it's like really cool that you can press a button and do all the n's and Oz. But whisper just doesn't transcribe those it it fixes the speech so wow you read it and it sounds like speech, but it's got all the junk removed it's it's magical. So, I'm using Mac whisper, which is semi commercial software whisper itself as an open source engine. Yeah, I've been using the large, the large model, which is three games. Oh, come come road. Sorry. Okay. And Jerry, I, my thought that comes up is just that. So I did a different approach which is. So I guess somebody did do a tiny bit of editing, but I basically decided for these pilots to be willing to release. Do not go through the hours of mind of me work to try to fix the transcript and to say this is a rough unedited AI transcript use it as such. And so that has some some pros and cons but especially for these these little like these little sprints like the 6000 sprint $6000 sprint and closing out the grant. Like, I would almost rather see you not spend another four hours that would be de energizing for you because it doesn't matter right you know like we could go back and fix that Sunday. So it kind of feels like sometimes if we get stuck in de energizing activities, just getting it cycled and then somebody can go oh wow that's a terrible transcript Jerry and it's like oh right do we have any bad buddy passionate that would like to fix that because it's it kills me slowly. I love what you just said. Thank you very much. I think I think my plan is, I'm going to go back to the script, see if it's upgraded, give it a go for another like half hour with the transcript as it was just to see if it's any better different. Then take the raw audio raw audio file from that recording which I sure I still have, and feed that to whisper as my first attempt at using whisper Mac whisper so I would do it the other way around. Really just go straight to Mac whisper, but that means I'll probably never go back to the script, but that's okay. Yeah, worse things could happen right. If you need to edit the video then maybe you need to use the script, but the only really embarrassing thing from the editing was how often I was umming and owing and whatever I was like, oh man, do I do that often. And if whispers are not going to if whispers are not going to worry about that then awesome. Yeah kind of to Jordan's point that you know the video if somebody is watching the video and you're going I'm an ah it's like yeah whatever you know. If you're reading a transcript and you see all that crap in there you can't read the transcript but exactly with whisper you just get a nice transcript that you can read and then you can leave the video kind of messy. Okay. I'm I got to get approach. Yeah, I did. Go ahead. Yeah, let's let's all be. I think we should all be okay being raw and just getting ourselves out there and embarrassing forms and then as people go like wow Jordan you could sure use some voice coaching to you know get some mums and Oz out it's like okay hooray let's let's improve. But otherwise we're going to stop ourselves. So is a Mac app store whisper transcription is the right app. And the, I know the one on gum road is. Okay, so let me go back to come run. And there's there are probably, well I don't know, I was going to try to talk you out or talk you into something cheaper or something like that but the guy who's doing Mac whisper is gold so. Okay, so there's a 3030 pounds for Mac whisper pro do I just do that or do I start with Mac whisper. Mac whisper pro will let you use the large model which is more magical than the smaller model so I should just do that. Yeah, you could, you could hunt around and get probably a cheaper, you know cheaper way to run whisper, but you know 30 pounds for a developer is fine with me. Yeah, we're supporting supporting the gold. Yep. Okay cool so let's keep. Okay cool. Okay, so, so we have. Sorry if I distracted us a little bit but I wanted to just show you Jerry. What's happening with podcasts because I think we can include it if you want, we could include it or your version of it or whatever and the report back out to on that grant just so we can we can show some some of what's already available in terms of what can happen on the back end. Okay, and then just to reiterate if you if you need a second podcast or whatever because I think we I think we said we were going to try to get you to two or three I'm happy to. I'm happy to jump on with you so we can tie that out so just just schedule whenever you want if that's a used to. Okay, so with that, that helps me understand how we're closing out the podcast thing. Should we return back to where I think we deviated was we were talking about Jerry, you had talked about reshaping media. Pete had clarified the more specific vision of massive wiki, and then we had talked about some things that we are all interested in that are not really a part of any named thing yet. So we could go back there or anywhere else. We have named things and unnamed things that we're interested in. I, the thing that would be cool to spend some, you know, 1520 minutes on is now having talked about kind of the fuzzy fuzzy use cases that are around maybe a core of massive wiki. It would be great to return to massive wiki and hit like our top, you know, top four or five or 10 things, you know, wishlist things that. So I would value doing that a lot. Yeah, I was hoping we would do that during within this call. So we have a pretty good idea of what we mean. Shall I just, shall I screen share the list I've got, and then we can come through. I think with this crew, I think I would use Hackum D actually, well Hackum D to at least create how about how about if you note taken Hackum D and I'll start from the list and I can in fact I can probably paste that list. Let me get a Hackum D up. I had the funniest Hackum D experience when I was trying to record a 30 minute. Tutorial that that's actually now up for sale for starting at $0 but but anyway, sometimes I have a wireless mouse sometimes the scrolling stops. So I was trying to export the Hackum D thing and the, you know, the, the place where you click on export markdown was gone and I couldn't get to it and I was freaking out on my recording. And I'm like, oh my God, did I like switch Hackum D into some weird mud? It turned out that I just couldn't scroll down the menu. Sorry, it's messy. Sorry, it's messy. I think there's a character train in front of each of them. I just pasted the list into the chat. Awesome. Thank you so much. I'll paste them direct straight into the Hackum D HackGPT. I just called it. We'll see now, man. I'm sure. So should we just talk our way down the list? Yes, that sounds great. Let me copy and paste the list. Say one Hackum D. Jordan, you can see the Hackum D. Yeah, I'm in here now. We could, we could do a couple of things. I'm just thinking for the sake of time, Jerry, I'm, I'm, I don't object to talking through the whole list, and it might be valuable too. We could also, because you and I have kind of talked through the list. And I think Pete intuitively knows what every one of these means. Kind of prioritize out. You and I came up to the little hypothesis on maybe three or four of the most valuable ones that might be near a term. So either way. I would love to hear 30 seconds on all of them so that I know what we kind of think and then go back and say, these are the ones that bubble up obviously. And if we agree on the top three or four, then we're good. We're done. Otherwise, I don't know what, in some cases, what we all mean by these things. So, and we may, we may have some interesting things to say or interesting comments to make about the ones that seem obscure that suddenly make them more important. Yeah, okay. Do you mind? We could also as, yeah, after those 30 seconds, we could also each give each one, you know, like an A, B or C priority or something, while our minds are in it. Sounds great. So just starting from the top create GPTS for massive and Pete, do you want to share your screen into the zoom so we can have sort of see that as we go. We can talk over that way. Thank you. Beautiful. That's funny because I've got night mode on and my side so mine's black here with black with blue text and yours isn't regular. I'm like, well, same document. Okay, good. So create GPTS is lots of different interesting things that one could do to connect GPTS to massive wiki. Pete, you've likely thought of that some this is not high priority for me it just like, Hey, there's a magic wonderland out there to do with GPT. We should think about that. Either of you. I have a question. Go for it. Sorry, I'll go in a salon, a salon has been creating GPTS out the wazoo. They had a hackathon and created 100 and I think it was in a 24 hour thing they do this 24 hours things which is crazy but but anyway, there's a bunch of people doing GPTS and now in a salon it's, it's, it's like breathing like oh, and I'm going to create a GPT, you know, I'm doing anything I'm doing and I'm going to create a GPT or I already created a GPT. So, so when I was talking about obsidian. You know, it was me or somebody else is like, Oh, and there should be a one by one way to make a GPT out of, you know, obsidian fall. So I'm all into that. And I'd love to know what that means. I don't know if that's one of our projects here, or if that's just neighboring fun we do with with whatever but I like that a lot. A lot of our game here is sort of traditional media normalcy and we need to fold in the AI. Okay, so, so my, my question here to is our GPTS a does that so Pete, when we say create GPTS for massive wiki is that going to ingest the million words on the Lyonsburg wiki and enable you to have a conversation with that corpus, or is that a different form of AI. That's what I don't know that the, the, the, like, the intent of the answer is yes. I'm not sure that open AI will be very happy with the million words. Right. It's just too big a corpus for the current models, but that's the goal. I think, I think there's like a 250 meg limit or something like that. So it might actually work. But anyway, the short answer is yeah, that's what I another thing I don't know that I've said it to you Jordan but I said this in a couple places, including in a couple places where I, for me, like Neo books, it's like, you know, there's the PDF version, there's website version, there's the EPUB version, there's the GPT version, it's, it's like a GPT is diva guru, I think for, for books now for a book. If you have a book, if you don't like in a year, year and a half, if you don't have a GPT that goes with it. It's like, okay, I could either figure out how I, you know, like in two years, nobody's going to read books anymore. They're all just going to be talking to a bot that knows the book. Interesting. The same people who will be still reading books are the same people who use buggy whips and ride horses. And they'll all be retired. Okay, perhaps involuntarily. Okay, so this one. This one would be a super high priority for me. Gary Glass, Pete has also been working on how to do this in a decentralized way. So I think you, me and Gary might want to talk about this and see where he's got, but he got at the basic working model where you could ask the lines for quickie some questions. Cool. So this is a good example of why I wanted to talk to the whole list is that for me, this was a low priority. Like we should play with this and now it seems to be a high priority for us all. I think this is a bad one to talk about because it's pretty easy to do and we should have just like, okay, let's let's experiment with that move on because anyway, so another thing we can add to some of these is at least, you know, what would it cost to get started doing this. So I'm going to use up to $5 lines or something. This one is really cheap. Cool. We should decide what that means. What is what is $1 signed. Let's make a little, a little key $1 sign is what's the range be. It's somewhere, but it's it's about maybe it's about four hours, I guess. Somewhere between four and six hours. Okay, so for $1 sign, should we just use for four to eight hours. Yeah, and then $2 signs is like eight to how what would you put there? Probably 24. It should be kind of logarithmic or something like that. Yeah, three is like 24 to 100. So let's use 100. Maybe either 250 or 500 depending or 400, 400 maybe. Yeah. Okay, great. Okay, good. Cool. Next item mass make massive wiki more of a wiki. To me, like one of the things that would be lovely for massive wiki would be when people show up to a page that there was an edit this page equivalent. That could mean one of many different things at this point if you if you know enough to scroll to the bottom and see and you know enough about how to use github. You can actually click a link on the on the page and go to github and edit, but that's that's a technical thing that most people aren't going to find. So the simplest possible solution to this is to put a footer or a header or something some notice that says when you come into massive wiki. At the bottom of the page of every page, there's a link that lets you edit, you know, if you want to go to github that's that that would be like zero cost. But I'm interested in massive wiki feeling more like a wiki thoughts, which means that every page when you're looking at it as a web page is editable in some in some way in C2. You don't have because I have to run over to obsidian make changes push to github wait till it refreshes then come back to another place and find the page again. I have. I have a partially articulated much longer conversation about this. Okay, so the. Let me try to sketch the shape of it and then defer it. The, there's a inverse relationship between ease of ease of use and starting up and power. So it turns out that I think, you know, 90 99% of the people who are reading web pages, don't know how to make a web page. Don't know how to contribute to a wiki right. So, just by making an easy push button interface that says at this page, you've made it, you've unlocked that capability for, you know, actually point 1% of the population. And for 99% of the population, you've just kind of made it worse, because I don't want to edit this page. I want to, I want to comment on it, or, you know, I want to grab a snippet put it on my blog and comment on my blog or something right. I want to be able to send you an email. I want, you know, I want to process where. So, and we're trying to do this we've, we've tried to do this with hypothesis and hypothesis is kind of the same thing it's just too hard to it's really hard to get started and then it's hard to, you know, think most people don't, don't think in hypothesis style and the, you know, this is not true. In 2002 or 2005 right, you could put up, I actually I was on a little team that. I think we, it was edit this page or something it was a, it was a kind of a community grassroots effort that got a lot of steam, where we made a particular kind of button with a pencil and it was green and we encouraged everybody to put edit this, you know, edit this page buttons on everything kind of. You could do that back in that day because the population of readers and the population of potential wiki authors was, you know, in the same order of magnitude or to make orders magnitude. Nowadays, it's like. So, so a little bit further on there you know it's like how do you, I think that the challenge is how do you square that circle so for the biggest population and edit this page button is useless or or even anti useless or sorry anti you know anti helpful it's like. I'm intimidated just by the idea of editing this page. So then those people need a different, a different interface which is, you know, send a comment to the authors, make a comment on this page, kind of like discuss something like that. And then there's there is a use case for make this page easy to use for people who who speak the lingo, you know, so it would be great if Aaron could go to a massive wiki and click the right button. And it just worked, because Aaron knows how to work wikis. And, you know, he's not going to hunt around for the right repo and stuff like that but if there was an edit this page but actually you Jerry, for instance, you would have gone on on Linesberg wiki, you would have put double square rackets around the Bible edition right if you didn't know anything about and and if you had the opportunity you might have even click that and filled out you know this is a stub page on, you know, this Bible. So it's both of those things. So. So I look forward to having this conversation more depth I put in the chat, what the dialogue might actually say hey, do you actually want to edit this page do you want to comment on it do you want to whatever. I think if you'll drop that in the notes we can add you know add that to our conversation later. I think the idea of being subtle and nuanced about this is really really good. I think the decisions about where is the comments, which which comment system do we want to use how do we edit what's the what's the editor those are all technical things down the road. I think your setting for what is the right technical level for people is much much lower than than mine, or maybe it's higher. I am I am like, when I started creating multiple vaults. I obsidian just broke for me just broke. And you're like, nope, nope, new thing new ball. And it's okay for you. So that those settings are just like different. Yeah, this, this is a different thing. Okay. So, when you and I are talking about whether or not something is easy to use we've got a different, different scale. Right. When, when we are talking about whether or not the public will be able to use it. I can't even imagine presenting the list of choices here. Because that that would be too hard. That's too, too difficult. So my, my assertion is that 99.99 probably percent of people will find it difficult to to, you know, conceptualize editing a page. And asking him in that language is just like, it doesn't even make sense. I, this is this even happened back in the social text days. Right. What we found is that, you know, there's a long tail of editors, there's, you know, like two or 3% of people who are ever wiki editors and the rest of the rest of everybody wants to leave it dry by comment. That's when they know what a wiki is right for most people, they never interact with text in in a contributory way right you're reading Washington Post you're reading Gawker you're reading whatever you're reading somebody's blog. There's just, you know, it doesn't even parse to say that hey, could you could you think about changing this text most people don't think about changing other people's text. So the, you know, the grand mass of people it's like, I don't know what you mean by contribute to this page it doesn't even parse. So we are now having that longer conversation which we should skip I am good for the next hour for doing this if you will want to keep going. I don't I don't have a call until the fellowship of the link in an hour but you probably are both free. I would I would like to attend it yes so so in an hour I'd like to be on that call but I don't have anything to get into our whole conversation even longer than yeah yeah no we this you've just turned over the first couple like shovel fulls of soil on this one. Jordan any thoughts on this particular question. And I'll add one thing which is, I would love to do this the simplest thing that could possibly work now to inch massive toward smelling like a wiki, even if that means putting a comment at the header that says hey, look at the bottom and if you know what you're doing you can edit this page. Sorry to get distracted the that's a that's, you know, a tiny step the step that's a little bit better than that is for massive wiki builder to if you give massive wiki builder the root of the repo. It knows where this this this page is in the repo right so you can have a button that says edit this page. goes to the first map cat would be you click that it pops up and another tab, and it's the GitHub page in edit mode, and you can literally just with the GitHub line editor, right. Yeah, yeah, makes great great sense just doing that is a $1 sign or no almost no. It's to really. Okay, to make it actually work. All right, well, let's just throw that as an option and then we can add Jordan any thoughts on this thing and then let's move on to the next item. No, no that this one's lower priority for me. Okay, and this one. This one's kind of my wishful thinking for you, Pete, because I think calling this massive wiki without having it smell like a wiki isn't helping. And just seeing edit this page for anybody who knows what a wiki is would be like oh okay looks and smells like a wiki. Thanks for that contribution. In my view, it's, I have the complimentary view which is expand your idea of what a wiki is. It's a bunch of people collaborating, you know that the material really well and find it easy to collaborate. And there's a web version of it. So, I'm okay with, I'm okay with the way it's working right now. Cool, even though I would love to have it at this page. Yep. My next item is make the reading experience special. Pete my brain is, is hurting a little bit because of how this list is not working like a list. Is there any easy way that like when I hit enter it can make another bullet or I don't know what happened. Which page are you on that's not making a list. The outline. I'm going to pop this kind of funky like making it nice has a bit. Yeah. So, this gap right here is just because there's two lists, kind of. But also just when I maybe I broke my at the top of dollar sign didn't work. First, maybe I broke my my view somehow of hack indeed but it's not like hit dash and try to make a bullet, and then hit enter it doesn't make. I did. What I did to create this list is I did stars instead of dashes, and they work exactly the same. But, and the reason I got stars is because Jerry had a list of things I highlighted that and clicked the generic list thing and then got interesting we just. So what we just did made it so my bullets list now. I just cleaned up the, I just, I just cleaned up the bullets by making them bullets at the top. I think it's probably the line horizontal line at 14. Okay. All right, anyway, it works again. Okay, yeah. Sorry about that. Okay, cool. All right. This was. There's something broken at making it nice here this is causing a weird format in the write up. I think that's line 25. It's switching from stars to dashes is causing that. Oh, okay. Gotcha. Okay, I just fix it. All right. Okay, so this was one that that I put in. So he Jerry and I were talking about, I think in the new books discussion as I heard Jerry articulated. I was thinking a little bit about massive wiki building the content and then a button to publish that out to EPUB or Amazon or whatever, which we'll get to in a little bit. And what this one is about is about creating an actual reading experience on the web that would be special. Because so, so what I'm imagining and I don't know if this is true. I'm imagining that these books are living a little bit and they're they're getting edited and improved over time. And it may or may not be true that, you know, once a quarter or something we're pushing a new version to Amazon that updates those those changes that somebody can read on a Kindle. But whatever we're experiencing is kind of the wiki books reading experience is what this one is about. And so I think from my non technical understanding this is something like a template that would get applied to those pages. And that there would maybe be two there may be one for text and then like one for children's books or things that have, you know, visuals. Okay, so I think so does that make it interactive to or got a little. It's just like, just so if you clicked on a book one of us wrote on on the web, like on the website on the lines per quickie let's say you go to the bookshelf and you click a title like it. The reading experience feels like a book reading experience maybe, or whatever we want it to feel like. So, so it's just a theme. It's not retheming it. So things is another is another item. We could pull this up, they might be the same, they may or may not be the same thing right so I'm going to pull this one up here. And that bullet case a theme. Is it more themes for mass mass of wiki or a theming system, if that makes sense. Okay, so if you build themes, we've got like one, one theme you can use right now but it's got a theming system. So then there's another task which is for children's book or for something that makes it look like Wikipedia or something. Somebody has to write HTML CSS JavaScript that that makes the pages look different. Exactly that's, that's what I think I'm talking about. That's what I think I'm talking about. I have a question. My expectation, my expectation is that if we output to Kindle it looks like Kindle it doesn't look any better than any book can look on Kindle it just matches sort of Kindle capacities for an ebook. Awesome. If we go to the web and join the community, then it looks more like a more or less like a wiki and not necessarily in my imagination, better than a wiki, but it has themes which would fix the, does it look right for a you know age that you could decorate it you could customize it to whoever's coming in whatever so themes for me covers sort of the look and feel, but there's another stage of what you might be saying that I don't think you're saying I just want to check it, which is, should the reading experience be substantially different somehow on the web and one of our friends Christopher Allen worked a lot on kind of comic book kind of hypertext where you follow like a path around the page and you can go up down left right. I don't know exactly what he called it but he was experimenting with a whole different interface for how to interact with the information. I will also point out that there's a bullet second from last called storytelling and massive wiki, which is one of my next next wish list items sort of down the road, which is how do I use nuggets to actually do storytelling, which might mean something more like Prezi, which is itself kind of this this really really cool way of presenting information. So Prezi website killed itself off in the second time they remade the software a couple months ago so it's kind of dead, but doing something like that or something else would be also really interesting and might be the direction you're pointing in, but I don't know. So I'm asking. I don't think we. So for me at this point, I could, I could. What I'm saying as far as our immediate discussion on scope is as simple as a couple themes. As people was just discussing them. I think, and then I think it's great to have a have a note here for what we want reading experience to be like over long term I don't I don't need to talk about that today I would be I'd be thrilled if we had a couple themes that made a decent reading experience. So, so I have this feeling that themes are pretty important for all of us there are high, high, high impact item. I think so. I think it's a low hanging fruit for a couple. I think if we went to the community and we had a had a children's book theme and a textbook theme or something. And they kind of felt good. I think that that would that would be a good support. I would I would love, for example, the ability to change a banner and the default background or something like that on on a particular set of pages in the wiki or something like that like it would be nice to have some more ability rather than hey pick one of these three themes and that's it. Right. Which might mean using some theme software that understands markdown and how to present web pages. I go look at. I go look at Chris Aldrich or a couple of the other people who do who use markdown to publish on the web and their sites look beautiful. But they're not doing very much. They're not elaborate. They've just got thoughtful fonts and formatting and like that embedded. And some of those people work very openly. So, you know, and Andy like that. Andy Matushak for example. I wrote online 31 simple theme is like $1 sign. And then an advanced theme is like $2 signs. Okay. And so then you mentioned something else. Which was, I wish there was a theme for some some subset of the wiki. I would love to be able to. So for me a book is a subset of a wiki right a book is a playlist of pages. I would love if when you're looking at those pages as if they were a book. You would have some visual affordances that say, Oh, you are now in this special context. It's a book. And maybe it has a border. Maybe it has a very, very simple CSS affordance that makes you realize that you're in a subset reading experience or viewing experience of that wiki. Does that make sense. Yes, let's write that. So that's a like totally different thing. And that actually that heads right into the difference between a presentation, a podcast and a book as pruding mushrooms from this artifact, and how do we make them visually apparent that you're now in that artifact, which I think is largely a matter of themes, I think, but also the is the matter of a couple simple affordances. I will say the one sentence thing that I don't want to, well, that I will say the one sentence thing one way to do that is to have separate wikis, each with their own team. I know. And I know some people don't like that very much. Yeah. Maybe many. Yeah, so so Pete on this topic I think if we think about. Can I explain why the lines. Go ahead. Go ahead, Jordan. I was just gonna say if we think about the lines for wiki as an example. The themes as we're discussing them like around books would have to apply to subsets or it wouldn't really make sense right so we can. Yeah, longer discussion that that Jerry and I go back and forth on and and poke each other with a imaginary rapier is that for for Linesburg wiki what I wouldn't do is put all, you know, dozen or two dozen five dozen books in that wiki what I would do is make each of them a separate wiki that and then fix the problem that you know cross wiki linking and and into wiki stuff and a lot, which is what I would do. I think that's. Okay. So it's kind of an important fork in the road I think that we might want to it's actually not work. You need to do both the both work and both that don't work. So, you need to do both. This is a longer discussion. Yeah, we should probably postpone. And I'll just say that having each of these in a separate wiki as a separate entity with a separate theme breaks the idea of neobooks because for me the nuggets are composable and reusable in very different context. I don't want that page duplicated. It doesn't break it because we're postulating advanced into wiki stuff. And your chance, including, you know, pointing to the little box that says magic happens here. And actually it's it's even better at new books and it's even better for tiles it's even better for decentralization because some people look at all of the Linesburg wiki books as one book with chapters or something other people look at this one book that's amazing to them they don't care about the rest of them, and it's one the whole thing by that self. And then you know they, they make their own version of that they copy it they forgot how to participate into wiki linking it's you know. Anyway, it's both you want to do both. Okay, so Pete I have a question. Okay, so let's go let's go next to. I may be misguided here but what I think we're talking about as part of this that I'm going to pull up above metadata. I'm actually just going to pull it up. Next is to do that Pete. Well, so let's say that the reason I'm saying it's a pork in the road is because you have to coach me which one of these ways that you want me to go and I'm going to follow which pork you tell me probably. So if you tell me hey Jordan. We're $1 sign we could make a few different teams. And then, and then we could work to just copy and paste out your obsidian files into a few different vaults and get those set up, and each one of those will look and feel different and that then the thing we would just have to set is we would just have to make sure that when we. I think we would have to solve transclusion cross wiki transclusion right is that the way to say that, or cross wiki linking maybe. I think I would make this different, and I apologize for. question is special form of linking so. Better inter wiki is what I would call it. Cross wiki linking. Cross wiki transclusion sister pages. I don't know what else I maybe one of the other lists I've got I. Anyway. Okay so so Pete intuitively I believe you that this is actually that it's actually better than me building out a giant. If we have a network of these different books because it means that I can reference your your work and Jerry's work in a different way. And so what is better. What is what are these. What are the first two of these costs in terms of dollar signs. Before I answer that we try to write down one more thing which is. I think it needs more research. It's probably. It's more like a well just to get started kind of you know just to get started you could do a double dollar sign thing to a dollar sign thing which is just to have some ideas about it. To actually get something working and doing something interesting as it's more like $3 signs just to start and it quickly goes to four dollars. Yeah. And, and then distinct thing for a subset of the wiki. This is probably a $2 sign thing. It would be pretty clunky but so the low hanging fruit is actually a distinct thing for subsets of the sick things. For a subsets of the wiki. Okay, great. Well I think that's where we needed to get to. Good. Well, the thing to do is, I actually the thing I am stall is the thing to do is both. Inter wiki inter wiki levels things up because I think. If you, if we're a little bit thoughtful about it, all of a sudden. It's not just lion's burger it's not just OGM participating in a cross wiki thing. You can invite other people to participate in that too right. So what you really want is for somebody to make their own version of your book and they transcluded in some of your, your pages and they write more pages around your book in their wiki. And both wikis know about each other or something like that so that you know it works kind of did you. So this is, this starts you on decentralization and other other communities talking to each other through the magic of wikis that can either look like they're separate or look like they're, they're one thing. I think this is going to be the source of more conversation, you know, down the road. I think of lion's bird or Neo books, or OGM as a project space. And within that project space, there are rooting bodies that have different characters, but they don't need to be their own spaces. There's in fact, making them their own spaces kind of defeats a lot of the purpose of what I'm thinking of at least the way I'm seeing it now defeats a lot of the purpose of Neo books as a concept. Well, I can see that I could make my way through having these things all live in different places but for me it breaks the actual creation and generation of it. It actually really gets in the way, because for me, I don't want, well, I don't want 20 different vaults or wikis, having a definition of the new standard Bible. I think it's going to be one that I update and it becomes more or less canonical, and that defeats decentralization, but there will be other people with projects who say no, no, no, we have a really nice definition of the new standard Bible. And I may decide at some point, God, I love their definition of new standard Bible. I'm going to change all of my instances that had here. I'm going to refer over to their trans clue that in the say thank you so much. And that's the authoritative place. So anything everything gets pulled into their version of it, and I am proxying my vote for the best description of the new standard Bible as that one over there. And that that's the higher the higher level process that I'd love to see fold out over time. And I don't see how that works easily within a tiny community. They follow the sudden I have 12 copies of that one page. That's going to happen if everybody's working in separate wikis. So Jordan capture that as issue of canonicity and decentralization quality. Yeah, so that's a great conversation. The, the vision of this is actually it doesn't, it doesn't really mean that you're going to have 10 different pages, 10 different versions of the same page. What it really means is you're going to have a bookshelf of new books or wiki books or whatever that is not just the ones written by Jerry and Pete or Jordan, but other people keep adding books. That can totally happen in the vision I'm talking about. No, no problem whatsoever incorporating that. No problem. All I have is a link that says oh and by the way, here's a list of books that are that use some of these materials that live somewhere else, follow that link and now you're in their space on their wiki, reading their book. That's great. No problem. None. There's no, I don't see any hitch there whatsoever. Longer discussion. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, that sounds like a yeah. Go ahead. These are these are really important architectural things that I'm glad we're talking them through like this. This is really fruitful. Exactly. Yeah, that feels like an architectural like product development road mapping strategy. Question we could get into. Well, okay. I really like Jerry. I also just to note, I mean, I, I appreciate this issue of canonicity and decentralization that you're bringing up and relative quality across an array and how, how we navigate towards truth. It's like super, super important. Thank you. Cool. I'm going to put a subset this idea of navigating towards truth, but the idea is we should be continuously refining and improving our best articulations across this array of concepts that are never, never canonical, so to speak, because they're being progressively improved. And at the same time, they're canonical in the sense that we're, we're not recognizing, you know, all these things as equal, like we kind of agree on what the most faithful representation presently is, as we're working to improve it, something like that. To riff on that, because for me, conceptually, this is a really important issue that I don't fully grasp, but one of the things I wish that this effort would affect a lot is governance and elections and politics and all that kind of stuff. And for that, I love voted things like proxy voting where I'm like, I like Jordan's, I like Jordan's policy presentation ideas about this domain here narrowly within this domain, he has my vote, I'm going to proxy my vote to him. And if what I've done physically is for those areas of description in my belief system as manifested on the web. I'm pointing over to his wiki I'm in fact functionally doing the same thing. I'm saying Jordan speaks for me on this set of issues and the matushak speaks for me on how to, you know, do this thing over here. David Reed speaks for me on telecom policy issues. And we would be doing that merely through our actions by this dynamic of where we reference and where we point in our materials. And the lighter form of it is just a link over to David Reed stuff on telecom policy and making it old style wiki perspective, but I'm really interested in the, not the eternal decentralization of ideas, but the crystallization of things back in toward the middle a little bit. So we don't wind up overgrown gardens. And I'm trying to figure out how to get a garden a flourishing garden but not an overgrown garden that nobody can make their way through. And that was way more philosophical than we need right now, but I feel like that's at the boundary of our. No, no, it's not. No. Yeah, yeah, no, no. I love what you're saying, Jerry, my, the spirit in me recognizes the spirit in you. Thank you. There's this issue of there's this issue of coming to a point of harmony coherence and consensus on around the. I deeply understand the way that you're linking it to governance because it's actually how we want to kind of be navigating. And if there's no concept of what's most right true noble and good among the array. Then we're bound to just fragmentation and so so the ability for a distributed array of this is almost like honey honey be democracy you know that idea of people are putting four things and and we're going to dance and vibrate and resonance and the most true thing is going to win over time. I love it. We need to call something waggle dance and maybe even the name of this project is waggle dance. I like that a lot. And I love what I love what you just said and this this way of looking at it also allows Steve Bannon to use the same exact infrastructure to put up his points of view and other people who agree with Steve to point to him and proxy over their votes to him to do world domination by destroying, you know, the institutions that exist. And those two things can coexist in this no sphere. And I think that then what we're doing is we're actually pioneering a great no sphere. But and that's one of my one of my wishful goals. And also, this is almost like, I'm writing things that I don't know if they're exactly true but I'm just trying to trying to capture but it's something like proxy voting and delegating responsibility and authority by domain is, is I think it's like, so I would, I would take whatever, like based on my survey of the network I would take my votes on the architecture of the decentralized systems that are going to call us towards this. And I would, I would delegate them to Pete, and say okay, what what what passes Pete's test you know as it relates to, you know, the round table of making sure it all stays on track I'm going to delegate that because he's a. And also, it makes me think of the. This is I think Dahlio's term but it's like the believability weighted idea meritocracy or something I forget how he, how he, but but it's like yeah yeah you want to recognize the people who are most qualified and speaking the most true things in a domain and then be able to say okay I put my support behind and that that probably also allocates resources and energy. Okay. Cool. Pete. I will I'm, I'm, I asked you to reflect on how public you would like this conversation to be because my instinct is that because a I think we're mostly working in your backyard right now and this is your project and we're sort of saying what about this how about this let's go. I think our goal is to work openly and we love that. And we had the conversation at the top of the call about what to do with the recording going to suggest we actually post this openly in the normal way that we do and you could do it or I could do it either way. And that we reported on this at fellowship of the link and invite people to some piece of this, although I think that the three of us working together in conclave here is really, really good. I'm feeling terrific. But I'd like, I'd like us to be doing this as openly as we can. Yeah, sounds great. Good if you're good with that. Yeah. And if other people are, I think just reframing that a little bit I think Jerry. I appreciate you respecting Pete's backyard that we are certainly in as we're talking about massive wiki also earlier you know he kind of narrowed that down. I think very intentionally to invite collaboration on some of these other things and what needs to emerge there so And while we're on the topic of sharing this more, more widely. I have to apologize or explain or something like that this is a pretty messy list. And we're not. I, it would be hard to ask somebody to start participating in this idiosyncratic list and I think if something listen to this call, they'd be like, Oh, okay, I kind of get this. I kind of get it but you know we've got some, some in group discussion that we've done a lot of some, but maybe what I wanted to say is this is not yet a good roadmap or even a good backlog or anything like that. It's spaghetti we're throwing at the wall and the wall is getting pretty messy. This is the first conversation at this stage of where we are really fair. Yeah. Okay, beautiful. Thank you for that. I have. I have two quick things maybe I wanted to distract us with, which I've been doing on the side. There are things. There are like obvious things that massive wiki needs that are on some of our to do lists and stuff like that. I'll explain two of them real quick. One of them that we've identified that we haven't that we thought about actually but we haven't ever done any dev with is right now if you're building a massive wiki. The homepage, unlike most websites the homepage looks like every other page it has the same page template the same page layout. It doesn't have a two column, you know thing or three column thing or a hero image, you know, and, and one column thing. You know, we've got every page, even the homepage has got a sidebar and the top nav and the page content in basso the current theme that everybody uses. So, a wish list that should be pretty wish this item that should be pretty high up is, I wish I could have a homepage that looks different from the other pages, the homepage, you know, should be my choice in the theme, but a common page would be a hero image or, or a rotating thing rotating three image thing or whatever, and a big headline and a little bit of text and then you should link off to everything else right so that template looks like everything else, or doesn't look like anything else. And then, so we pretty quickly went from, you should have one, one homepage template and then body page templates to actually what you want to do is just have multiple page templates. Say this is a homepage. This is a documentation page. This is a prose page, you know, whatever. This is a table page. And then have metadata in the page that lets you pick which, which way to render the page it's run. So that is basso your creation or is basso something you found and adapted. It's a good question right now there are four themes. There's, I forget that anyone there's basso, there's actually a half done coriander. It's a skeleton, super skeleton basso is my creation, but it uses a CSS library called Bulma. Another wish list thing that we've got is coriander is half done a non framework based. So, okay, one of the ways our list is getting messy is we're we're mixing the wish list items with actual sort of practical tasks. These are the same for me as these, these are wish list items just the way better into wiki is, it's actually very small. If you actually put a header on those and said Pete's coding priorities that would probably help separate them from the the other higher level things that that were Jordan and my brainstorms for where to go. Yeah. Thanks. And then so my my other question I'll wait I'll wait until you're done with this so you don't lose your stack. Yeah, so the, the, let me cover the other one real quick, which is right now basso. And that means any mass of wiki has severe. This is a bad one. This has got hypothesis, another bug hypothesis, the button the Chrome for hypothesis is covering the hamburger menu. Oh, collapses down. I didn't even know. So you can, I barely see it. No, you can click the hamburger menu but you don't have the burger can't the burger icon be made wider. It can be made wider. I think Chris Aldrich said hey you know this Jerry you were there. Chris Aldrich said hey I know some people hack in the hypothesis CSS to just drop it down a little bit. Right. Let me show you the more important problem. So yay, the nav collapses to a menu bar. I have more recently started to take all the stuff in the nav and put it in the sidebar. Well, and then you can get cooler sidebars. Shoot, I can't think of, we have, we have a good well maybe actually it's massive wiki now I think about it. This has a very nice sidebar. Yeah, compared to everything, everything else. It gets you to the important, you know, place the important sections and has even, even more. So here's the same nav as the top nav. So the problem with the problem with basso is it's old enough that, you know, we end and clever enough that it does the top nav fold into a hamburger menu. And basso doesn't really know about the sidebar except that it has a sidebar. So if you make. So this is what it looks like on a mobile on a mobile thing. This is what massive the massive wiki site looks on a mobile thing. So this is this bug report comes in from Vincent arena who's like Pete. On a mobile I'm looking at massive wiki and I cannot see any, you know, there's there's no page content the page content is totally disappeared because his phone of course looks like this page content is not there and I can't get to it because I don't know about that. So, Bill and I are in a conversation. I might my thing I want to do is kill the top nav actually and just let everybody put whatever now they want into the sidebar. Bill's very good comment back was, wait, wait, wait, don't go so fast. These big buttons are make it easy for my shaky hands my shape, you know, older shaky hands to actually hit. I really don't need this. You know, I don't, I really need you not to take away the support and so me being able to navigate by making tiny little links that I can't hit. So, anyway, two thoughts. This example really highlights for me that you could easily become the full time builder of a website generator, or trying to duplicate what Google sites does which I use all the time because every feature we're talking about winds up sort of out into, well, it could do this, it could do that. And I think that's that's maybe a dangerous road for you because I could easily see that being your full time work but you have as far as I can tell 538 other full time jobs just like that concurrently operating right now. And the other thing is, can't we like go ask Andy Matushak at all. Hey, what's the absolute best highest function thing and just copy their open source code in and start from there with probably a rich set of features to modify. So, I acknowledge the first thing. And that's why simple stuff like this and that basso sidebar problem is actually a very significant problem for the whole community right. It's, it makes the site basically unusable if you want to use a sidebar and you want mobile. It's nearly unusable not completely. So, I, there's a, there's a trade off between adapting any Matushaks CSS and writing our own to. So, because of one because I have 500 and whatever other jobs, we're not doing some simple things that would fix a lot of stuff for the community. You know, I started, I started a, the problem with basso and Bulma the problem with Bulba is the way I copied in, I copied in, it's just a massive messy CSS framework and it's hard to. The reason it's not obvious how you change the colors for instance is because it's buried in the Bulma. It's one of, you know, 2000s or two or three of a couple thousand Bulma lines, right. So coriander is an attempt to make a 20 or 30 lines, 20 or 30 lines or 50 lines of CSS where you go, oh, here's where I change, you know the color or something like that. And, and it would also be easier to fix problems like this. Anyway, I don't think we can copy and paste somebody else's theme very easily, because the themes end up being inter twingled with the way the content management system sees the content. So a lot of times it's an even better example is Wikipedia. Why can't we just make it look like Wikipedia and it's like, well, the Wikipedia theme for Wikipedia knows way too much about the CMS. And it's like, like, it's just a mess of like, you can't untangle it, and even something simple like any Matushak site. Yeah. It's a good suggestion. The thing to do is to look at Wikipedia or any Matushak site, look at some of his CSS maybe and then just rewrite from scratch a theme. And it's not that hard. You know, it's a, you know, somewhere between one and two dollar signs. It's just, I haven't had around to it. Alright, I'm just trying to figure out if we can save you some time and effort from my my theory actually is my theory has been to scrape together 500 bucks or whatever, maybe 200 bucks. And, and hit fiver or whatever, and say, you know, hey, here's the description of what this, you know what the CSS needs to do CSS and each one maybe JavaScript here's what needs to do. It's a commodity kind of thing at this point to turn a description, you know, a screenshot Photoshop thing and some description of, you know, this is how the, by the way, I, we have a whole another situation with that top nav bar and whether or not you want it this stuff to go under it if you want the top nav bar to scroll off. If you embed the wrong thing whether or not it goes over the top. That's all. Yeah, yeah. So this is basically, I think, I just heard you say this is theme stuff we talked about themes a little bit up and I think you just heard, I heard you say that that, you know, $500 or something might pay for the fiver work that coupled with your work would fix this thing. So I think that's, that's a pretty reasonable thing to pause it that we might include in this proposal that we're going to do. Yeah, cool. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, great. Shall we carry on. Let's carry on. Are we on a book writing dashboard or where are we. We, we skipped over, I asked for a metadata, which is important and we have 20 minutes so we might want to. Yeah. So let's just let me let me blast through all of them real quick once and then we can come back and do a little thing so managing the book metadata Pete and I've talked a couple times about where do I put metadata within a document how does it work. There's a whole bunch of really interesting things to talk about about which metadata where does it go. It would be nice. I put in the chat earlier think cut copy paste where today there's a trope everybody knows cut copy paste it happens to map elegantly to the what's other tropes like that that we haven't uncovered yet for for for metadata and what to do when you're here so that that it seems like a pretty involved one. The new book writing dashboard I mentioned earlier is how does an author of a new book who's who's like in there trying to write in a new book way know what the current new book holes, which nuggets are at what level of openness, and there's other sorts of stuff that you might want to do as a writer so it's kind of a it's like Scrivener. It's it's the least common Scrivener like features. The path from massive wiki D Pub and KF that seems like a thing we have to do, given that we want to publish new books. So this this feels like a kind of a must fund, which is which doc, which doc generator or other publishing tool that we incorporate. How do we make it so that what template do we give people to say once you've got all these pieces in place you press a button and here's what happens. How do we get is been numbers all that kind of stuff. I think that's that's all in there. Permalinks for Plex post articles is a tiny tiny thing, but I love Pete's Plex by weekly. I would love to be able to cite individual posts in there, because they don't have permalinks it's like these things and these things are getting longer and longer as people submit lots and lots of material to you Pete. And I think that the individual authors would love to have a permanent that says oh here's here's my article in this version of the pub. That's for post of the permanent. That's it. Exactly. And where each where each offered post is a nugget in a Neo book, for example, and then can get rolled up into a book later. So let's pretend the class wants to serialize his first Neo book, they could appear in the plex as chapters and then she being shabby through the other project. It could be squeezed out as KDP podcast infrastructure we talked about considerably here. I love that. I think I feel like we've done that. Present from a Neo deck goes way back for me to the start of Neo books before I was thinking of Neo books I was thinking about presenting from from a wiki. Kenneth Tyler, the creator of seed wiki did this with me for me in the 90s. Maybe it was the 10s. I don't remember we were in Berkeley together, and he created a widget that let me play a playlist of web wiki pages on seed wiki. And it would, it looked like the most rudimentary of presentations and it was really a cool experiment. I'd like to be able to at least do that with massive wiki. And then it's very easy to then think about transitions themes a bunch of other stuff. And the themes project we already have here. I think we need to adapt it with more resources to do presentations books, podcasts and whatever other kinds of fruiting bodies we think come out of here. Storytelling with massive wiki I said a little bit about which was, I miss the hell lot of Prezi I think there are lots of other interesting storytelling tools. How might we have a brilliant job of storytelling so that the nuggets that we create are reusable to actually record stories and put them out in the world or to live do something on stage, you know, reactive responsive way I don't know what that is exactly. But, but I think there's a tremendous amount of power here because so far everything we're doing is we're creating logical books that have a particular order. And I think storytelling is super powerful. The last item is the multiplayer mosaic, Jordan, I think you might have been part of some of those conversations, maybe not, but Disney to make better cartoons invented a camera that had multiple decks to it, where you would put cells in each deck. So the bottom cell would be the landscape of hills and sky and sun, the middle deck would be trees, the top deck would be yogi and boo boo. And then as you took shots and you would move each of them gradually and you created the impression of 3D. I'm borrowing this metaphor into, how do we explain our models to each other because I find that I have a model where at one layer I want to talk about journalism education, governance, etc. But at a layer below I want to talk about massive wiki and its component parts, and at a layer above I want to talk about people and which interests they have and what they're connected to. And I want to be able to move this up and down and then I want to be able to take an individual cell or layer and look at it in 2D only, because then you can really work the landscape. So we talked earlier about the view from someone's mast when we were doing the flotilla stuff. What is the view from Pete's mast, that should be a layer that is easily generated from what we know about people and their connections through the mycelial links. So that's a bigger project, it's not a priority here, but it's clearly a wish list item for me. That's all I got. Just a quick note on that last one. One of the biggest places I've seen conversations get hung up and just keep spinning, spinning, spinning as people not understanding which level of abstraction we're talking about, where on the salience landscape. And so it really, so even if only a small number of us knew how to navigate the cinematic universe, it would be really useful for some conversations to move a lot quicker. I love that. Thanks for connecting. That's the ladder of abstraction for me because I wasn't thinking about that, but that's totally right. It's like they were, I would connect it to two topics. One is a ladder of abstraction and the other is the idea of domains and the different domains play out at each of the levels of abstraction. And so, and they have to be unified by some kind of a uniting vision and values of where we're headed. And so it's like that unifying kind of vision or intention, whatever you want to call it, spirit down the levels of abstraction and across the domains is something that the community like. And the more we can make that palpable visible, the clearer our conversations will become with different people in different ways. Yeah, this is like making this is making a very important invisible slash unconscious narrative framework conscious slash visible so you can navigate the landscape of conceptualization together. I love that you have an extra you have an extra a and navigate. This is beautiful. Other thoughts. I'm writing in opal and zircon. It's a replacement for obsidian and get and makes get easier, especially. And then I've also got a conceptual thing about. So, instead of using obsidian, you can use zircon and zircon talks directly to get so it's a front end that just. It looks like massive wiki in the front end but it might I mean it looks like a looks like a standalone client maybe but it, it's actually built right on top of the get the get forward to using. So do these feel like basically intelligent word processors or note taking integrated note taking environments or what do they feel like. Interesting opal. The idea of opal was reimplement a simplified version of obsidian, probably with the electron. So it, you know, Jordan would use opal instead of obsidian and the obsidian get plugin, and then the get stuff would be made easier because we have a little bit more control of it. And does that mean does that mean we lose the ecosystem of plugins and extensions that obsidian wins us. The massive wiki thing is always use whatever tool works, because the data is all the same. So if you want to use obsidian and the plugin, amazing plugin ecosystem, you, you can actually point them both at the same, the same repo at the same time. Right. The same way I use type or and the same way I even kind of use hack and do is this also is opal a shortcut for making this wiki editable as a wiki. It's, it's really meant it's, it's still a single single player view into a, you know, it, no, so the show answers no, Zircon. The idea of Zircon is it, it's a, it's basically turning your GitHub repo into a massive wiki and it's a lot more like a classic wiki. Okay, so let's take 10 minutes. If you guys are okay with it to you. So what we want to do is move from this conversation to, I would love to move from this conversation to two different things. One that's more immediate is a grant proposal to Lyonsburg for $6,018 or whatever the amount is. Net of whatever Lyonsburg needs for managing that. So, is that the net number or is that a gross? I'm not sure. I think that I think that's all available, but I'll verify that. I think, yeah, I forget, but I think we did 5% on that. So it would either be 6000 or 5500 or whatever that is or 5700, but it's, it's nominally that either way. Okay, so, so, so now we get into kind of like a resource allocation discussion, which is if we could advance this critical path in the best and wisest and highest way that we possibly could. What would we do with $6,000? And so that means prioritizing these things, which at this point seems a little tiny bit complicated because some of the bigger ones float up high and the bigger ones will easily eat the budget. I think, and Pete, it means you might need some time to sit and reflect on how much budget each of these things needs and so forth. We might need to have another have another call where you've had a chance to sort of think this thing through. Yeah, I agree. And then it seems like it also, yeah, it seems like it also relates to one of the most beautiful and powerful things about this is it also relates to things that we're all want to do anyway. And, and so it also seems like, you know, the massive wiki crew could could circle up and look at its own priorities and time and then go okay, you know, what are we doing and how could we augment that and you know what You might want to bring this up at Massive Wiki Wednesdays or something. Yes. Yeah, and certainly with Bill. Yes. Does anybody mind if we call this project waggle dance? Nope. Is that okay? It depends on I don't know what the scope is. Well, I think I think the project I'm thinking about right now is us together figuring out how to start using what the remainder of the Lionsburg funds and then possibly attracting more funds so so this has life beyond that initial grant. So how do we improve Massive Wiki to do the things that we all want to do with it? Yeah, yeah, if we if we if we take some of this into a broader scope and roadmap that's going to carry on and try to attract more funds I might I might encourage us to have a naming session to take it public but that sounds like a perfect interim name. Cool. Pete, once you've posted this page, can you send me a permalink to it? Thanks. I will also just mirror back your comment Jerry it's a it's a joy and honor to have this time with you both and it feels very nice to have our minds on the same place. It's also nice. Jordan, you are the biggest user of Massive Wiki I know of and you've generated like lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of pages. So you're like very experienced in messing around with it so it's fun because each of us at least is really familiar with what we're talking about and also is pretty clear about what goals we have individually. And I think we're also pretty good at clarifying one another's goals so that's that's working nicely. I am grateful for both of your both of your intellects and time. And my head's too full to do a better job than being grateful. The second. Sorry, go ahead and share. The other, I was just going to close out the other place that I would, I would love to see this co and be willing to personally devote time to to the extent that that advanced and did not hinder efforts in this direction. I would love to see us have a shared kind of tech roadmap and budget that looked a little further into the future. You know, maybe it's into the first, let's see a four, you know, whatever that looks into the first 2050 and 300 grand of this pathway that we're treading down. And I think that we know enough now that we could make that, and I think it's valuable and I think it deserves to be funded. So Peter I think that means, as you think about the first tranche structured in a way that assumes they're more cautious. Yeah, that makes sense. I think. Yeah, it makes sense. There's, there's a place where this goes from massive wiki road map to, I mean, I can, I can manage pretty much, you know, I can manage the massive wiki tile, but then there's a level up of adjacent tiles or something like that that turns into a I would, would you gentlemen be willing to one way we could handle it because how I would like to try to resource them is through grants etc that come in through lion'sberg. So one thing we could do is if you guys would be willing to put on a lion'sberg hat, we could, we could look at, okay, here's, here's a tech roadmap involving multiple projects that, you know, supports the mission of the better world we want to build. What would each different group or named thing do what would the approximate budgets be how would they relate etc, and we could kind of come up with a grant request almost we could almost put together a grant request that says okay, you know, here's a roadmap over a couple quarters of different groups and people that would be involved in executing on it would be like a little federated proposal, and then we could see if it was fundable. That's one of the most interesting things for me is actually that federated proposal process. Okay, well then there's two of us. Jerry, would you like to participate in that. Yeah. Pete I just changed. I just logged in as me and the web brain you mentioned trying that link one more time in a browser and seeing if you get the brain view and shadow the ultimate view. I'm just curious how that works. Same exact link. I'm going to go here. Yay. Okay, good. So the last time I leave that space. It preserves that as the default entry for whoever. Cool. Thank you. I think this tab used to look the other way to so it magically refreshed. Interesting. Cool. Alright, so we pick a time for the next call like this. Pete it's up to you for how much time you need to think. I'm gone this Friday through Sunday. I wonder. We could. We could barge into her over the next massive lucky Wednesday. And we would pick up bill that way. I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing, which is today later or his next Wednesday. Is next Wednesday 31st 31st that'd be great. What time is that usually 1230. Well, Happy to do that if that makes sense for you. Yeah, I think so. Either you. Okay, so you're proposing that. The three of us would join whoever shows up at massive wiki Wednesday, 1230. To advance this discussion. Yeah, okay. Great. That works great for me. Yeah. It's built bill should be there. And Chris Aldrich might show up. Awesome. I don't think it'll be anybody else. Is there anybody else that. Should be there or not. Bentley would be another person that. But it that kind of depends on his bandwidth right now, which I don't think is very big. Yeah, I think we've got the right group. Sounds like I think bill is really the bill is the next important person to loop in. Okay. Okay, great. Okay, so Pete, you'll shoot a, you'd a. Convitation maybe. Yep. All right. Beautiful. Should we set. Should we set an approximate target for submitting the $6,000 grant request to Linesburg like should we try to do that by. Like within a couple of weeks or something. I don't know how much time we need, but it would be nice to not let it sit. Yeah, I think that's a great idea, except that. I wouldn't. Well, I think that's a great idea. I wouldn't. What I would do is set a time limit and. And ship a proposal and maybe that'll fill up the $6,000 maybe along. Yeah, so I think that time, the time is more critical than making sure that we hit. I don't want it the other way around. It's like, oh my gosh, we have $4,000. What should we do for, you know, and have that stretch out a couple more weeks. Yeah, I don't think I think we can figure out how to spend $6,000, but. So let's maybe we should try to ship a proposal by whatever, you know. Yeah, 2 weeks from now. Finalize it up massive with humans in 2 weeks. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. That's beautiful. Thank you guys. I know you have a call right now. So I'll jump out. I really appreciate it. Hey, that was brilliant. I really thank you. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. All right. All right. Is there a reason to create a small channel on matter most for this conversation? I don't think so. Okay. We may, we may feel that need at the massive wiki call. So we'll see. But just, just someplace to keep, keep going. All right. Thank you. Thank you.