 Well, our guest is an expert. She is currently working as the principal prosecution council at the office of the director of public prosecutions. This is Jacqueline Omoe, who will help us understand this conversation. Jacqueline. Thank you. It's quite a pleasure having you with us. Thank you for having me. Welcome. So let's get into this first before we start. Well, tell me what are some of the stereotypes associated with the career of being a lawyer? Because Mimi, at some point in my life when I was young, I wanted to be a lawyer so much because one, it's a prestigious career to be associated with lawyer, doctor, engineer, those types of career. But later on, someone told me that you want to be a lawyer. You want to be a lawyer. So basically that's what they said. That's the first one. That's the first one. There's the stereotype that lawyers are just in it for money. We are rich. We have money, which is not entirely true. We are all trying to make it in this life. There's a stereotype that we just like to argue. It doesn't matter whether we are right or wrong. We just like arguing. Exactly. You know, as some people in school, you're like, I know how to argue a lot. So I think I can be a lawyer. Yeah. You know, and you find you'll come across people who don't like arguing, who are actually lawyers, who are very quiet. There's always often people think we are very loud or noxious, you know. But some of us say just polite, say chilled. And chilled, yeah. So there are very many stereotypes, but as we were doing breaking the bias last week for the women, there's also that breaking the bias we are doing for lawyers. All right. Hopefully that goes hopefully, you know, the perception changes and break the stereotypes. And so now maybe you can tell us what you do exactly, what exactly you do and your roles before we start. Yes. So I work at the office of the director of public prosecutions. I am a principal prosecution counsel and I'm currently based at Makadara Low Courts. So what I do is I prosecute criminal cases. I only deal with criminal cases. So our office has the mandate to institute criminal cases on behalf of the government and the people of Kenya in a criminal court. So that's what we do. We institute the criminal cases. And we prosecute them to completion. And we also give the government advice on issues pertaining to criminal law. Okay. So basically you go and represent the state in a court of law. Yes. Okay. Perfect. You got it. I'm not so bad at this. I have an idea. Okay. All right. And then just to make it clear, you know, some jargon is, you know, associated with law. And we just want to make it clear so that as we go into the conversation, people understand. So give us the difference between being a lawyer and being an advocate first and then also being a prosecutor and being an attorney. Okay. So being an attorney and being advocate is kind of like the same. It's just that the jurisdiction words are different. But being a lawyer means you have gone through university and gotten your LLB. Then you have graduated. And as soon as you graduate, you're now a lawyer. Okay. Right. So for you to be an advocate, you go to Kenya School of Law. You go and do your pupillage. So once you do that, you become an advocate. You get to an advocate status when you're admitted into the role. Yes. So you get into the role and then you're admitted to the bar and then now you can practice before a judge or a magistrate. As a lawyer, you cannot appear before a judge or a magistrate. If you're a private practitioner, then you have to go to LSK and pay a certain amount of money and get a practicing certificate for every year that you want to practice. For us who are in government, we have an exemption to that rule. We can still practice before the magistrate and the judges without us having to obtain a practicing certificate every year. Okay. So taking you back to after you finish your degree, that is four years in school, you become a lawyer. A lawyer. Yes. Okay. But you can't represent anyone in court. You can't stand before the magistrate. No, you can't. So you go to the next Kenya School of Law. You still go to Kenya School of Law again for two years? One and a half because one year is like the teaching and then you have half a year where you are in practical. Right. Okay. So that's what you call the pupillage? The pupillage, yes. So after that, after you finish that and its success and you sit for your exams and you pass, then now you're eligible to be admitted into the role and then now you go get admitted to the bar and now you are recognized by LSK. You get a number by LSK and then you can pay for your certificate. You have advantages that come with being a part of the society. All right. Yes. So what are some of those advantages? Advantages. Just last week they were doing the elections. So of course if you're part of LSK, you can run for office. Okay. They have different associations within the organization that allows you to get like the Advocates Belivellent Fund. They have things that give you access to like insurance at a better rate because they have negotiated for you already. So they are parks to being under the LSK society. Yes. All right. And you know, being admitted to the bar, people make such a big deal out of it. Maybe it is. It is a big deal. It is. Okay. So how hard is it to you to be admitted to the bar? It is hard. It's not easy because it takes a whole lot from you to actually go through the coursework and pass your exams. They are not easy exams, by the way. So it takes determination and it takes a lot of work for you to get to where you are. Yes. So what if you fail at that point? There's an option for you to recede your examinations just like in any other course. Yes. All right. There's an option. So with all the, you know, the process and everything, why is this career important for someone who wants to get in and they're thinking that, ah, if it's such a process, such a hectic process, six years to learn and getting to get into the market, you know. So why is it an important career for someone to get into? Into it. And maybe I should say it depends on why you want to get into this career because there's very many aspects but basically a lawyer is someone who advocates for rights. Right? And everyone needs someone who will advocate for their rights. All right. Yes. So it depends on now which area this person is advocating your rights on. You will find like us prosecutors, we advocate for human rights mostly in the criminal courts and for law and order and peace and security. That's where now we are. Then we'll have a company lawyer or a corporate lawyer who will be ensuring that your organization is running smoothly, that the laws and regulations that are set by the government pertaining to companies are held to esteem in your own company. So then we have them, they're checking your ethics as well. So they make sure you're right. So they're advocating for you as well. You wouldn't be in trouble with the law when it comes to any civil cases. Then we have people who would probably be advocating for civil rights. We have people who'd be advocating for immigration rights. Right? So at the end of the day a lawyer is someone who advocates for the different kinds of rights that you have that are set out in your constitution for all rights. So the different parts in being a lawyer and we'll get into that in depth later on. So basically it's why you want to be a lawyer that counts. So okay, all right. And what's the difference between a lawyer in the public and a lawyer in the private firm? Okay. So I think like if we say it in layman's terms, so a lawyer in the private arena would probably someone who has employed themselves or even if they're employed, they are governed by the rules of the particular law from that day they are in. And in government, as I told you before, we are exempt from getting the party certificate which we'd see as a park. They are here or sometimes we don't see it like that but sometimes we don't see it like that because it excludes us from certain aspects with the LSK as well. Because like right now we cannot stand for office under the LSK. So basically lawyers who work in the public sector we are employed by the government offices, right? So you can be employed by the public service commission, you can be employed by the IEBC, you can be employed by the EACC, you can be employed by KRA, you can be employed by of course ODPP or the Atoni General. So we see we fall in the public in the public sector. Then private is like when you finish your law school, you can open up your own law firm and run it as a one-man shop. You can decide to employ other people, come into a partnership and then you get to pick and choose what cases you're going to do, right? And for us we don't pick and choose which cases we're going to do. Once I am there I will handle every matter that comes before me. Yes. And okay so now in the public space when you want, we know you're from the law school and you want to open your firm, so do you get a license to open a firm? Yes, because it's like a business. It's a business. So after that you're good to go, you get partners and everything. Now being a lawyer in the public space, again we have some perception, I don't know if you represent people for free. Yes, that's exactly what we do. That's exactly what we do. Okay, okay. So in the right direction. So now people say that you know you like represent criminals, crooks and is that the case? So now you're mixed up again because in the public like now if I speak as a prosecutor, so I prosecute the criminals, right? So they will get a private lawyer to represent them against me who represent the states and as much as I'm representing the states, I'm also looking into the rights of the person who has complained, right? So if for example you're assaulted, right, and you go and report to a police station, then you become someone who we call a complainant, right? You're the one who is complaining. When you come to court, you don't necessarily need to have an advocate because now my job is to advocate for you as a prosecutor. I present your case before the magistrate so that the magistrate can see that you are rights were infringed upon by the person who assaulted you. Then the person who assaulted you will hire a private lawyer to come and represent him as against what I am saying, trying to disprove whatever facts I am trying to prove on your behalf. Yes. So what's the process before you take on a case? Do you go into checking if they're really, if the complaint is really true first before? So that mandate falls under the national police service because they are the investigators. So when you see EACC, you see DCI, you see the national police, they have the mandate to investigate cases. So once they investigate their cases, they bring for us a file to look at. And when we look at a file, we read the facts and we say, okay, this one seems to have enough evidence that can convince a magistrate beyond a reasonable doubt that this person is guilty. And that's the kind of file that we will want to register and take to court. So they will investigate and we will prosecute and the magistrates will again make their final decision. So it's a stakeholder kind of thing that goes on. We cannot all work in isolation. We all work together. We have to work as a team. Okay. All right. So Babtu, if someone wants to be a lawyer, you said first is the reason why you want to be a lawyer. So if this is well established, so I want to be a lawyer because I'm passionate about social justice, defending people's rights. So what next after that? What next? So you, okay, when I was going to law school, right, to get into a law school to do a degree, you had to have at least a B in English or in Swahili. Right? So either of those. Okay. Then of course, your grades must be good. You have to have a B average altogether. I don't know if there's a C plus. No, it's not. When I was going, it was like a B average. You don't know if they've taken it to a C plus, but B is safe for you. For a public, for you know, for anyone who wants to be a lawyer. Anyone. For anyone who wants to be a lawyer. So you will go to law school for your four years and graduate. Right? Then after that, then you apply to join the Kenya School of Law. This means that you want to represent people before court, but you can also decide, you can also go to Kenya School of Law and decide you don't want to enter a courtroom. So these are the different parts that a lawyer can take? Can take, yes. So what are those? Because you can be a corporate lawyer, right? Yeah. You work behind the office, you look at documents, you do contracts, you attend meetings, you can partner it with your HR so that now you can be doing the HR legal side of the company and things like that. Right? So at no point will you be needed in a court? No, because you'll find that many of these big companies will definitely have a panel of lawyers who can represent them before court. So you as the legal officer in that company will just be liarsing with them. So you don't necessarily need to go before court and appear and represent them. All right. Yes. So there's that. And then you can, if you look at activists, most of them you'll find that many lawyers are actually activists, right? Because we see what the law says and then we see where it is not being followed and we always raise a lump about it. And that's another power that the LSK branch holds, the society holds because they are to keep the government in check in ensuring that the people's rights are not being infringed upon even by the government itself. Right? Yeah. So to take you back to your question, being a lawyer is not just appearing before court. You can do it in very different ways. You find, even at the UN, we have very many people who are lawyers who basically would sit and run projects that would be advocating for certain rights, like I was talking to you about immigration rights, about the refugee rights. So you'd see that there are lawyers who are needed in all those species. I think we need lawyers in almost all aspects. Actually, that's the thing. Lawyers are very, it's a good career because you can fit in anywhere. Anywhere. Yes. Because when you want to get married, you need a lawyer for something. Yes. When you want to get help, you need a lawyer for something. So yeah, different aspects of life need lawyers. And you can, you can, journalists, how many journalists do you have who are lawyers? Think about it. Not many. Not very many, by the way. Law can be paired. There's a cost that's called law and journalism and the law. Yes. Right? Because you guys also have certain rights and you have certain restrictions by the act that governs you that you also need to know about. So who's going to tell you about all those rights? Okay. It's a lawyer. It's a lawyer. Yes. Right. Okay. So either way, we are here to protect and serve the rightful citizens. That's what you do. Okay, to more service. It's a career in service. You were speaking earlier about whether jobs are a calling. Yes. I think, I think most jobs are for the people, like even us, is definitely a calling. Definitely. So okay, on that still, so if it is a calling, so someone can just wake up, you know, and decide, I think I might want to do law, you know, to become a lawyer just because I can, just because, you know, I'm smart and I can understand the law at some point. So that's not enough. Is this, is that enough? It's actually it's enough. It's it. The thing is, when you get in there, then you will find that the game is different. You understand? Many people in our time got into law because we wanted to make money because looked rich, right? And we're like, this is best able career and I won't have to hustle too much. Exactly. And people respect me in the society, you know. Exactly. So now you get here and you get a job like a prosecutor and it stops being about the money and it starts being about the people. So you can decide at whatever point because you're smart, you want to do this, but once you get into the field, things are different. You may get there and you just into ensuring that everyone who is trying to buy property is, is not swindled, right? So you go into convincing law, right? So your job is to ensure their contracts are proper, their stamp duty is properly paid, they've done their searches properly, and all those things. And you get passionate about it. And then at some point stop being about the money. And I'm telling you lawyers, we do a lot. We are therapists, yeah? We are counselors, we are confidants. Yeah, those people, people call in the middle of the night like, I need to, yeah. People will always be coming to you and asking for your advice and things like that. So that's what happens. So what are some of the cases, maybe one particularly, before maybe you got into criminal law? I don't know if you did something before, something different, but a case where you represented a client and you got attached maybe to the case or the client of the particular issue. So before I joined the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions, I was working for the Atoni General's office and I was still representing the government, but in civil cases. But if we want to talk about attachment, then I'd tell you where I am right now is where you actually get attached to people, right? Because every complainant, survivor, victim is someone who you have to interact with on a daily basis and hear them out and listen to their concerns and assure them that they will get justice. And that's why I was telling you when you get in there. You have to be a counselor. You are everything for that person. You wear many hearts. Yes, you're everything to that person and you will often get attached. There's not one case that you will do and just be like, you don't care because everyone approaches you is different to that different story. And the story of their life, which they will share with you, that will change the way you look at everything in that case. And you're not supposed to get attached to a case, maybe? You aren't supposed to, maybe, but you're still a human being and you will have empathy for people. So either way, you'll still get attached to it. And okay, so back to what we're talking about before we come to a close. So tell us about what you do outside your office because I also know that you have Linda Salama. So your passion goes beyond what you do in the office. Okay, so Linda Salama, I found it in 2018. Can I stuff you just for a bit because we want a good on a break and then we'll come back to this. Tell us about Linda Salama and what you do and more into the career of Lowe. So thank you for being with us. Let's take a small break and we'll be back to continue with a discussion. All right, welcome back. Well, this is still one in the morning and we're continuing with the conversation understanding the lawyer's career. If you have any questions from what we have discussed so far, you can share your questions at Y254channel using the hashtag Y in the morning. My personal handle is at Stephanie Yeta. Well, our guest's handle because I did ask about that. Where can people find you in case they have questions which they would want to. On Twitter at Jacqui. On Twitter at Jacqui. So that is your social media handle. Okay, so before we went on a break, we were talking about what you do outside the office and it shows the conviction, the commitment, the passion that you have because it's similar to what you already are doing. So tell us about it. Linda Salama. So I attended our training with Yali, Young African Leadership Initiative. And after that, I formed Linda Salama. So Linda Salama basically is an organization that I created to create awareness on sexual and human rights, basically rights of children and women. And this was because of the number of cases that I was coming across in the office, which were regarding a lot of sexual assaults against women and against children at the time. But that doesn't mean that we don't also sensitize and give awareness to the other gender being the males because they too, and often not, they do get part of the gender-based violence at the end of the stick. So we are here to give, to create awareness and to give information as to where you can go when this happens to you, what you need to do, what steps you need to take and even merge you with a counselor so that you are able to get counseling and just to put you back in a path where you can proceed with your life without having too much trauma left within you. Wow. This is quite a nice initiative and it comes from your passion really to help people fight for their rights and know the rights that they have. And so if someone wants to reach out to you, maybe they're going through something and not you in the office of the DPP but you in Linda Salama. So we have our Facebook page where we do take in messages that you can do it even anonymously if you want. So we have a Facebook page that's called Linda Salama. Just that one word Linda Salama and you will find us and then you can give us an inbox and then we will follow up on your request. All right. So I believe that will help a lot of people. So back to it. So one wants to be a lawyer but they have a personality, a shy personality and you've mentioned this at first. So you know you have a shy personality and you're maybe an introvert but you want to be a criminal lawyer you know because the other aspects of being a lawyer you've mentioned it but I want to be a criminal lawyer but you know I'm an introvert but I have the passion to represent criminals in court. So what do I do? Well if you're an introvert I don't know how else to put this but you don't have to be loud or an extrovert to be a lawyer or to even represent anyone before court right? But you have the passion okay maybe you should apply to the judiciary side as well. You can also think about that. You can apply to be a magistrate. You can apply to be a researcher. You can apply to be a low clerk. You know all those everyone it has to take hold of their relationship. Everyone is important but again I must reiterate that you do not have to be an extrovert to appear before a court of law and represent someone. You don't have to be the loudest person in the room even if you're an extrovert and you're good at your job. So long as you're able to represent your client's case that works. Okay so the personality doesn't really matter. We are all very different personalities by the way. Okay okay all right and for someone who's already in this particular career but somehow they're lost maybe because you know I have a case where a friend finished their studies. I believe they got their accreditation as an advocate but then they've never really gotten a job 10 years later down the line. So why is this you know someone can be lost. This is your career but you're not getting the opportunities. But would you be lost or probably you would be looking for something specific and you don't want to try out anything else. You know because as I told you earlier there's law in everything. There's law in journalism. There's law in medicine. There's law in HR. There's law in everything. So you can try out different areas and even just try even just like as I see in the civil society you just go and volunteer then you see if it's a fit before you can decide then this is not my path this is not what I want to be doing. You can decide and come and sit in a courtroom and be like no this is not what I want to be doing then you'll find that you're better at convincing. So you'd rather be advocating for people selling property and things like that being the real estate business. So law is in everything so you don't have to restrict yourself to a particular kind of law or wait or just know that once I finish school and go to LSK to KSL then I must go before court and represent criminals or on the other side you know. No don't close your mind to it because it is so wide you can pick anywhere you want to go. So basically what you're saying is that after you're done with school you should be open to opportunities and one way to do that is to volunteer in different areas to see where you fit in best so that you can decide let me go with this because this is my thing. And for those lawyers that's actually some are lost they're here they're there you know I'm in criminal because I'm also trying to find my way and I'm past the pupil age stage you know. So I get a case in criminal in criminal uh is it criminology criminal case. Yes criminal case. I get a case in criminal case I get a civil case I get um you know a conveyor case so you know I'm neither here I'm neither there. Well you know it's allowed so that's a general practitioner yeah so you generally you can handle all kinds of business right so you can be as if you can handle that civil case you can handle a criminal case and you can handle a convincing case and I think that makes you more marketable in this Kenya that we live in right being able to open just like the way supermarket open branches everywhere right. They're getting more clients when they have branches in all parts of them of the country if you are able to handle all the three facets then it is fine. But is it not better to be identified specifically with one like something like being a jack of all trades but a master of one? Well you can be a master of one which is good as well but then and that would make you an expert in your field right like if you're doing only um divorce cases then that would make you an expert in your field then probably you can charge a higher rate because you are the expert right but then remember that you what if something changes what if something changes and only me maybe you're a convincing lawyer and something changes and now the real estate business is down then what happens exactly but in that case you will have you know because being a jack of all trades but a master of one means that you know all these other areas but I'm better in one in one yes I'm more identified you know when you have a criminal case this is the person to go to so I think that would be better it's better but I don't think there's a problem in in knowing all parts of the law because we learn all those different parts of the law in your training and and for me I am in the criminal side because that's where my passion is yes but if anything happens I should be able to hold myself up and move to the other side okay so what about those lawyers that are there but want to get ahead in the career want to have that extra factor you know that's extra factor that people are looking for what should they do what should they do yes what are some of the advice the tips to get I think is it are we talking on our private side or on our public side well general because um you like even for us even in our field even as prosecutors we will find that some of us are we handle like sexual assaults better than others because for others it's a bit too much for them to handle we'll have people who are doing murder cases only and therefore they can be called experts in that particular field so for you to advance yourself further and you want to be to move further ahead then there are certain courses that you can do just to make yourself more marketable because often you find there's a training here and there that you can attend and pay for and you get a certain certificate that will push you further ahead than the other people okay right and it doesn't just happen in in the public side also in the private side all right you can find a lawyer has gone and done the higher diploma course in HR so that that's already given that particular lawyer a push factor of a someone who has not done any extra course so what are some of these extra courses already depends on where we want to yes exactly now that again depends on you as an individual like what is your passion so having that extra certificate is a good thing yes all right and what are some of the areas coming up maybe uh that lawyers can look into maybe especially now with technology you know technology has come up and things are changing lawyers already in it lawyers are everywhere they're everywhere because lawyers are everywhere remember before any law is passed a lawyer will be consulted right so there is actually law in IT right now and lawyers are already there that's something you lawyers are everywhere you cannot do law and not get a job unless you're very strict and constricted on what specific kind of thing you want to do but if you're open-minded you can fit in anywhere so basically in school like you know most of uh this other courses you're taught at the far you taught general things the first maybe two years and then in your third year you major in something specific maybe like for journalism uh you know about the lighting sound but when you get to third year you major in broadcast print whichever area that you want to focus in so in law there's nothing like that you would find that there's some optional courses that you can do like you can decide to do the law and journalism course in in in campers and then I can decide to do uh the child protection law because that one's not a compulsory a compulsory course so you can pick which of those two to do right but basically you find that all the other major parts of the law we all do the same thing yes when you go to ksl we all do the same thing there's no there's no specific course that you could pick selective courses no you all do the same thing so you do the same thing and then you later on yes so now when you go when you want to go do your masters you see that's a different thing because now you can decide to go master in environmental law right I can decide to go master in criminal law so that's why now you can decide where your speciality will be okay yes so all right just as we come you know to our close of this conversation there are some of you have some achievements that you have made I believe in your area of specialty so just to encourage someone what are some of those achievements the successes in so that in law yeah in being a lawyer you know a prosecutor in your organization I also know that you're there with legal sisters yeah so what are some of those wins the wins okay so I'm the legal sister we started the petition to have the border border operators regulated yes yes and we got very we got a lot of public support which we are so grateful for and we are pushing forward to ensure that all the regulations that the government has indicated that they want to set we want to make sure that they actually do it because this conversation has been had before and there was no follow through so we want to make sure that the follow through happens yes I'm also part of a group called positive circles we curate positive conversations in the society basically around the women because you know they say as women we never come together for good so we do create positive conversations around the women in the society and yeah that's what we do okay all right as we come to a close as we finish actually what is the last advice that you'd like to give to youths who are looking forward to becoming lawyers you know it's a viable career path it's a very viable career path I would say if you have the heart for it because it requires a lot of studying or as well but if you have the heart for it go for it you will not miss a place where people need you to advocate for rights at the end of the day you will always find a space in this table for you all right thank you so much for joining us thank you for having me it's been a great conversation and I believe very informative for us youths and those you know who specifically want to pursue the lawyers career so if you have any questions feel free to uh converse with us at y254 channel using the hashtag wine the morning and we'll be reading out your comments later on in the show that has been a wonderful conversation with Jacqueline Omol who is the principal prosecution counselor council at the office of the direction director of public prosecutions well we take a short break and we'll be back with