 It's all good. We are here. I'm so excited. Every day when I see the purple, I know it's going to be a really robust conversation, fun show, and it's what I love to nerd out on. So the cause selling cycle and fundraising academy and with you, Tony has really been a joy. So let's get started because today we have a little different episode in regards to overall our shows, but in particular with the cause selling because we are doing today as an ask me anything episode. So this is anything going back to the cause selling method and we will re familiarize everyone with what that method looks like and how you can implement it, how you can get started. And Tony Bell, again, you have just been a joy to work with senior director, office of program administration at national university. So thank you for being part of the journey and being a partner with us here at the nonprofit show. We are just so grateful to have you and the fundraising academy along with us for this journey. And again, those of you that continue to join us, we are so grateful. This is, I want to say our 310th episode. So we are, I know we are getting on up there. Thanks to our presenting sponsors, you see all of them right in front of you on the screen. We start every episode extending our appreciation to every single one of these companies. Many of them have been with us for the entirety, 310 plus episodes and they're staying with us. So again, we are really grateful to have the continued support and the investment of our presenting sponsors, including today's guest fundraising academy. And Jared, if I can just jump in, it was such a pleasure meeting so many representatives from your sponsors. When you activated one of the steps of the cause selling cycle and pulled everybody together to kind of steward the relationship and give us an opportunity to meet one another. So congratulations on such a robust group of sponsors and such great individuals and organizations. Well, thank you, Tony. I'm so glad that you did say that. It's really, it really has been fun. You know, when we started this back in March of last year Julia literally picked up the phone and said, I have this bananas idea. Do you want to do this with me? And I was like, yeah, sure. You're only promising two weeks. You know, what am I really getting myself into? And here we are over a year later and every episode is phenomenal and really just packed full of like just knowledge and expertise. So thank you to Julia Patrick, CEO of the American nonprofit academy for creating this wonderful opportunity in our sector and allowing me to continue alongside you to be of service. I'm Jarrett Ransom, also known as the nonprofit nerd, CEO of the Raven Group. So again, we alluded to a little bit that today is going to be different with Tony Bell. Everything with the fundraising academy has been a part of a cycle and that is the cause selling method or system. I kind of use that terminology interchangeably Tony. So please do let us know if there's a structure into how we should name this. But welcome back and please, if you would just briefly share a little bit about what the previous episodes have been in regards to these three phases but the eight step cause selling cycle. Thank you so much, Jarrett. And again, it's always such a pleasure to be with you both and to share our passion for the space and hopefully the end result of us coming together in these shows is that we're helping folks raise more money for the causes that they support. And that's ultimately what we hope to do with the fundraising academy and certainly what we hope folks achieve as they kind of lean into the cause selling cycle. So you're absolutely correct, three phases, eight steps. Each of the eight steps are really well-defined. They're easy to follow, really utilizing and I've said this before but really utilizing the best of the best strategy, sales strategies and the for-profit sector and taking a look at how we can benefit from those in the non-profit sector and the work that we do as fundraisers. So the eight steps are as we see them here starting with prospecting, taking us to needs discovery which we often refer to as the heart of the cycle because that's where you're really asking a lot of terrific open-ended questions with your potential donor and really getting to know them. This is all about relationship driven fundraising. So you really, you know, so certainly we would want to cycle that would support that and provide lots of opportunities for you to get to know your donor. So I guess- And I'm gonna interject again. Just looking at last year and the navigation of, you know, such just horrendous times, really I think the word of the year besides pivots and maybe there's two words of the year, right? Is that relationship? So really focused on that return on relationship. And so this cause selling cycle is perfect and really evergreen because it is something I believe and I've said and have witnessed multiple times during the episodes. I wish I actually knew this cycle and this method 20 years ago, right? But it's never too late. It's never too late to learn the cause selling cycle and to start implementing it into your organization or university. So I just wanted to focus on that relationship piece because that is so critical. Thank you for doing that. So yeah, so that, you know, so prospecting needs discovery. And then last but not least, it takes us all the way to stewardship. So once we've received the gift, you know, how do we stay in touch with our donor? How do we keep them engaged with our organization? How do we elevate their gift? You know, the next time around. So it's all of those kinds of strategies. And Jared, I love what you said. And we've said this many times about how, you know, I certainly wish I had this structure when I first started, you know, doing fundraising over 20 years ago. But what is great about it is that it's easy to jump into it regardless of where you are in your tenure in the fundraising space. But it also, for a lot of us that have been doing this for a while, we're gonna find that we've been doing a lot of, a lot of these strategies. We've implemented a lot of these, I'll say organically or through our experience. We just might have historically called them different things and they weren't necessarily bundled in such a methodical step-by-step fashion. So again, for those that our curriculum really is designed primarily for fundraisers that are one to five years in the fundraising space or executive directors that are wearing multiple hats. But we've certainly had plenty of fundraisers that have been in the game for a while that have found a lot of value in the curriculum. And again, they're like, oh, well I was doing this but I called it this. And I didn't necessarily, because it wasn't so structured, I didn't necessarily see the association between step two and step six or how, you know, step four support step five, right? I always ask questions, but I never really saw the degree in which the answers to those questions can help prepare me for my presentation. So here I go, I got all passionate about it. So here he goes, but... It's great, and I would tell you, I mean, as somebody who's been asking for money in my community for more than 30 years, I could see when it worked after studying this with you. When it worked and why it worked and maybe more importantly, why it didn't work. Right. And, you know, I have been thinking back on all of these conversations on all of these lunches or coffees or dinners or meeting with people in their homes. And I was never afraid. I was never afraid to ask, but I would be bitterly disappointed when something didn't turn out the way I thought it should. I could never really go back and say, well, this is why. And now as I'm replaying all of these times, I'm like, dang it, dang it. If I had known, you know, maybe I would have done this. And so for me, I have to witness, it's been really powerful to see this. I mean, really powerful. As part of this, Tony, as you've been guiding us through this process, and I think I heard a little bark from maybe one of your board members. And I wanna tell you that that's okay. If that's what I did here. Or somebody's a bark and back. I've had a lot of questions. And a lot of times my questions come to me as they have from our viewers after the broadcast is over. And so we've been, you know, filtering questions. We've had our own, Jared and I have been talking about these things. And so today is we are putting you in the hot seat, my friend. I just gotta witness this is it. So this is our first question. When an existing donor has a new spouse, how do we engage that person in the cause selling cycle? Because maybe we've had these relationships with one person. And now there's another person engaged in this through, you know, life loss, remarriage, whatever. What do we do about that? Well, I think that, and that was my little board member letting me know that they were very pleased with the work that I'm doing today. So I just thought, you know, we love positive reinforcements from our board members. So yeah, so this is pretty broad and there are lots of dynamics around, you know, again, a lot of times we wanna have these kind of turnkey solutions and answers, right? That are really cut and drive. A lot of the very rarely is anything relationship oriented, very cut and drive, right at very turnkey. So here's where I would say, you know, this is why building a relationship with your donor is so important. So that you are aware of life events that take place with your donor. So in the one example, I think that you were sharing Julia, if, you know, a spouse, if there's a change in a spouse, a spouse, you know, passes away, whatever that may be, you have such a relationship and you're checking in with your donors often enough to where not only are they sharing this type of information with you, but it's being shared in a timely fashion so that you can react appropriately, you know, based on your relationship with the donor. So, you know, Cause Selling Cycle teaches us and encourages us, again, to know enough about our donors to where you're sending anniversary cards or you might be sending a birthday card. The, you know, one of their children just graduated from college, so you're acknowledging that in some way. So again, you know, it depends on where you are with the relationship, but because you've developed a relationship, it should be a lot easier for you to engage a new spouse by inviting them to come tour your facility or, you know, just other ways to invite, you know, invite them to get engaged in activities with the organization. Well, and as I think of this, you know, and I can't help but relate this to, this could be more than a spouse. This could be a family member, it could be a child, it could be maybe someone managing, you know, their finances, there's so many different individuals that if you replace a new spouse, you know, having this conversation or having this question, I would imagine Tony really is multifaceted and multi-leveled. So it's really going back to that relationship. I love what you said, let's bring that person into the fold. You know, we always talk about, there's 1.8 million nonprofits in the U.S. That is registered charities within the United States. So I like to say, you know, we all have our pet charity. We all have that favorite organization. And really when you look at the philanthropy practices of men versus women, it's interesting to see how statistically, men give a lot of money to one or two organizations. Women statistically tend to sprinkle that wealth or, you know, really just the assets around multiples. So I would think it is critical to bring that individual, be it a spouse, be it a child, be it someone managing finances into the conversation and, you know, inviting them to attend or be a guest at a function, if that's doable, I think is a wonderful opportunity to really engage and to continue building that relationship. Mm-hmm, yeah, absolutely. I always made it a best practice to do my best to be introduced to or to get to know the spouse or the significant other of any of the donors for the causes that I supported and worked for. Absolutely. That's good. Fascinated that you brought up, Jared, the concept of advisor. Because financial advisors, trusted officers, I mean, you know, as we have an aging donor population, we are gonna have more external inputs from, you know, these outside folks. It's an interesting conversation. It's a lot to think about. A lot to think about. Okay, Toni, well, you know, we wanted to start you off with an easy question. I don't think we did. So let's go to... We're only going up from here. All good, all good. Okay, so now let's ask another question. Would it be a good idea to have our board trained in the cost selling process? We feel it could help them to understand how long it takes to develop donors. Yeah, that's a really great question. Let me just start by saying that I think it's really important that board members participate in some type of professional development related to the nonprofit sector, whether it's cost selling or something around volunteer recruitment or how to be a better board member, I mean, whatever that might be. A lot of the organizations that I've consulted with, we've added professional development for board members in the bylaws. So as part of your responsibility as a board member, you must attend at least one nonprofit professional development workshop, webinar, whatever during a calendar or fiscal year, however, they manage that. So I just wanted to start there and say, yes, huge advocate of board members participating in some type of professional development, specific to the nonprofit sector, just as they would for any of the sectors that they work in in their for-profit careers. Again, what are best practices going on in for-profits that we need to make sure that we're leaning into and mirroring in the nonprofit sector and investing in professional development is one of those that we could definitely get better at in the nonprofit sector. So yes, definitely at a minimum, some type of professional development, but certainly I think cost selling is one of those strategies that board members can benefit from. Again, not only in terms of helping the cause in which they're supporting by serving on a board, but I think ultimately helping them in other areas of their professional life because these again are definitely strategies that you can apply whether you're in a for-profit or nonprofit or whether you're trying to convince your three-year-old to eat Brussels sprouts. So there are ways to use a lot of these strategies in day-to-day life because everything is about relationships. Right, and I love that because it is so applicable. And just as you mentioned, when we first started this episode, Tony, I kind of innately used the cost selling cycle with our sponsorships. And we had a sponsorship soiree and it really was just a feel-good virtual meeting, virtual gathering, but I really think it's important to show the cycle to the board in particular, not just the board, but the fundraising committee and all of those involved to provide that level of education. Because again, I've been around 20-plus years in the sector doing what I love to do. And I have had people tell me like, oh, I better let you go so you can get back to dialing for dollars. No, that is not what I'm doing. Let me show you the cycle. Let me show you the fundraising cycle and what that looks like and truly the longevity of the time, energy, effort and really that relationship building that goes into stewarding a donor. So let me ask you this and I'm curious for both of your answers and that would be along this line, how do you feel about having a board member come in for a meeting? I mean, you know, they might have been shown the cause selling cycle or they might have had some, you know, yeah, we know that that's what you do, but they don't really know and yet they're asked to come in and participate in oftentimes towards that end for the ask. Do you think that's disruptive? Do you think that's positive? What are your thoughts on that? So I think there's a lot of value in having a board member participate in the process and throughout the process at some point, right? I mean, I've gone to meetings where we made the ask and I brought a board member with me who was not engaged in the process and that had mixed results. In some cases, total home run, there you go, Julie, I said home run, I used a baseball analogy. So there was a total home run, other times it was a foul. So I know, impressive, impressive, right? So I'm into basketball right now. Oh, okay, well, I don't have time for that. Slam dunk? There you go, a slam dunk, a three pointer. I don't know. So because some donors are really going to appreciate that a board member took time out of their day to come and meet with them. Like they are so, their investment in the organization is so valuable and their participation is so desired that this board member has come to this meeting to be part of the ask. If you wait until that part of the cycle, just really give a lot of thought to who is the person. This is going to be a stranger, perhaps to the potential donor and just keeping all of that in mind. If you can engage them earlier on, that's great. The difference around that is if you're bringing a board member into an ask and that relationship that you steward was based on a referral from that board member, then I'm super confident about them stepping at the ask because there's the assumption that the potential donor and this board member already know each other because that's where the referral came from. But yeah, I more times than not lean into the idea of having a board member participate in the process. Again, Julia, not only for their own education to understand what it takes, but also because of the feeling that it gives the potential donor when a board member invests their time that way. And Jarrett, what's been your experience when you've, you know? Yeah, I love what Tony said. There's been multiple ways and opportunities where I have brought in a board member. In particular, I'm thinking of an international organization where we literally were in another country. And then when we came back to the metro area, the metro Phoenix area, the board member was able to share his personal experience of being there on the campus. And so that was a wonderful opportunity. Now mixed reviews as to what Tony's saying, there are times when maybe you bring in a person that is just ill-prepared or really uncomfortable and they could just botch the entire meeting, you know? I mean, that's why they say we have two ears for a reason and one mouth for a reason. To listen more than you talk. And oftentimes because, you know, not just board members, but other individuals, if you're not properly trained and properly practiced, there are times when someone will speak, when really we need to have that awkward silence that we've actually talked about before during the cause selling cycle. Right, right. Okay, cool. Well, I think that's really interesting and I appreciate that feedback because I think, you know, so many just as the viewers of the nonprofit show come at these things from all levels. And so I think it's an interesting thing. Yeah, and like I said earlier, there, you know, as much as I would love to give a one-size-fits-all answer to some of these questions, right? So it's like, here's the solid go forward answer for that. Again, we're talking about relationships and individuals and that's diverse and varied and interesting. Right. And you know, for me, I have to say I like that because I think this gives you more authenticity and you can be more fluid to work with what your reality is at that moment in time versus like, nope, this is the way you have to do it. And if you don't do it, you're a failure. I mean, no, I think that's what's been more, for me, more natural. Okay, now I wanna get into kind of that professional development aspect and ask the question, you know, does cost selling have any relationships or endorsements from some of the national, and I'm gonna call them trade associations, that's not really the right word, but professional groups such as, you know, AFP, CFRE. I mean, even any ones that you can think of, I'm kind of wondering like what that might look like. Sure, well, a lot of our distribution network for our curriculum consist of universities around the country. So we have a number of universities that we partner with to help facilitate curriculum in their local markets. And you can see that mapping on, you know, on our website and get better acquainted with some of those university partners. So we have kind of that endorsement and that, you know, these universities have seen credibility in the curriculum, recognize the benefit that it would have or the impact that it would have to the nonprofits in their community. And so they've partnered to help facilitate curriculum in their own backyard. I've always felt like the cost selling cycle and specifically the work that the fundraising academy does is a value add to the sector and not meant to enter the space as a competitor or kind of muddy the waters or make it confusing for folks. So we do have a terrific, you know, partnership and relationship with AFP. We have a terrific relationship with CFRE. They have a strict and formal process for having our curriculum or anyone's curriculum. It's not unique to us. To have anyone's curriculum kind of verified and certified for folks to, you know, accrue, you know, continuing education units and, you know, through our curriculum. So currently all of our curriculum and national webinars are CFRE approved for folks that are renewing or seeking that credential. But our biggest endorsement really comes from the folks that go through our certificate program and share their experiences once they've gone through the training and earned that certificate, you know, really and how this new education has significantly changed not only the way that they do work, but the outcomes that they're seeing from the work that they're doing. Okay. Well, you say, you know, it complements what's out there. So it's not in competition. It really complements the methods, the models, the accreditation, the endorsements of others. And that's wonderful. There's so many models out there. I'm thinking in particular one that involves a breakfast and then you cultivate, you know, you cultivate the individuals from there. That itself is a model, right? It is. The selling model really moves into that moves management conversation. And I wanna say maybe our next question is about how do we integrate it into the CRM? And I apologize if that's not the next question, but I feel like that's one of them is really how do we integrate that cause selling education into tracking and institutionalizing this knowledge into our system? So, right on cue. I'll read this aloud here. We are adapting our CRM to include the cause selling phase donors that they are in. And I love that. Are there percentages where our pipeline should be filled? Yeah, so that's a great question. I don't, you know, I would really lean in. I don't have an answer to that. So that's, you know, that's Tony's transparency. I don't have an answer to that in terms of the percentages. I can tell you that a lot of the graduates of our program have utilized the cause selling cycle very much in this manner where they have, you know, put each of the steps they have incorporated each of the steps into their CRM regardless of what platform that they're using. And they have attached their donor profiles to those steps. So at any given moment, they can, you know, go in and query that data and see how many donors they currently have in the needs discovery part of the process or how many donors they have queued up for the ask or how many potential donors they have, you know, in their pipeline, you know, for pre-approach. So it can be a terrific tool that you kind of again, kind of overlay into your CRM to help you kind of track the activity. And again, where that donor is in the cause selling process. I'm just not sure about a percentage. Well, I don't know if there would be a national, like, you know, standard percentage, but we all know, you know, if you, like I talk about with the grants, if you want to bring in a million dollars, you need to prospect $3 million. So looking at the eight step of the cause selling cycle, looking at that, at that phase threes, there's a couple of ways that I think you can divvy up your percentage. You could do it based off the steps or based off the phase. And I think that would be important as a temperature check for every fundraising committee meeting, every board meeting to say, you know, year to date or percent to goal, here's where we are with our revenue income. Here's what we forecasted and here's what we can project based off of where we are either in the stages or the phases. And maybe that's set per organization and you know, per CDO, Chief Development Officer. Yeah, and I love the idea of measuring that on phases. Phases? Yes, I love the idea of measuring that based on phases. Yeah, I think so too. I mean, I think that's crazy powerful. And I also think that it would help everybody to kind of understand where things are moving along. Hey everybody, if you've joined us for another episode of the nonprofit show, you know, a lot of times, well, not a lot of times, every day we are a 30 minute show, but when we have Tony Bell on, we actually go a little bit longer, generally because we have so much to talk about. And frankly, we just couldn't squeeze it all into 30 minutes. So I just wanna give you the heads up on that because that's just the way it is. So hang in with us and know that you know your clock's not broken and yes, time has blown by. Okay, now I've got another question for you. And this is something that Tony, you have like touched on in and out of our conversation for these three months, but I gotta ask the question, in terms of laps donors and the process of like getting them slotted back in and reconnecting them, where would you put them on the cost cycle? I mean, do you start all the way at the beginning? Or I mean, I've gotta imagine it's somewhat of a fluid process. Yeah, it is pretty fluid. And when we talk about re-engaging laps donors, it does depend on where you are currently with that relationship in terms of where you might reenter them into the cycle, right? Because their laps, for some reason, they've fallen out of the cycle. So really looking at, and we talk about, and we won't have time to take a deep dive into it today, but one of the tools that we talk about in cost selling is this Madden approach, right? And it's kind of this measurement in terms of where is this potential investor compared to other investors, right? So you have like six categories, you just kind of check them off on where they fill those categories. And of course, the laps donor that fits in all six of those categories is your low-hanging fruit as the one you want to invest time in, as opposed to the others, right? Because now, again, you're looking at this list and you're qualifying them. And now you've qualified them to know which ones you should immediately start investing time and resources in. And part of that investment in time and resources is getting an understanding of where your relationship is with them currently. And that will help you know where to re-engage them in the cost selling cycle. I think in one of the shows, we might have used the example that you may run into them at chamber meetings or different kind of just social events. So it's not a cold engagement. You've seen them, you've probably said hi, and kind of reconnected them with them in a pretty light manner. But they're not someone you need to start at step one. You might start them at step four where you bring them in, you start talking about the needs discovery and getting them to answer questions to help you understand why they fell out of the cycle and where you can jumpstart them again. I love, this is one of my favorite. I know it is, Jared. I know it is. Is to re-engage laps donors or individuals that have fallen out of the cycle. And I always see it as a wonderful opportunity when you have a new executive director or CEO, really any new executive level, anybody new in the fundraising team, really anywhere in the organization, right? Like when you can engage your entire organization to reconnect with this person, it really is the power of relationship. We talk about that six degrees of Kevin Bacon, that's no longer it. I think it's like the two degrees now because everyone really is connected. It's true. But looking at, okay, who did fall off the cycle, right? When did they fall off? Was it last year, two years, three years? Sometimes I even consult my clients to go back five years depending on the individual. This is a great opportunity to again connect the dots. Who is this person? How do we know them? Who's the best person to re-engage? Bring them back into the fold and make it a fun challenge, right? Like really a fun challenge. There is a reason they gave to you. I'm on my soapbox, so I probably got like much taller. But there's a reason they gave to you in the beginning. And so I think that's a wonderful opportunity to re-engage them, tell them what you've been up to, share with them the impact of the last 12, 16, 18 months and invite them to learn more about the, you know, the organization. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think that one of my most interesting lessons was a campaign and I am not a Catholic, but it was a huge, huge campaign in the 80s called Catholics Come Home. And it was a masterful approach to, you know, recognizing that there had been members of, you know, a structure that had been engaged and then for whatever reason or not. And so one of the things that was really interesting is that they had to kind of, I don't use the word face or demons, but they had to have dialogue that said, why did you leave? Can you, you are welcome back, you know, what can we do? I mean, it's a very interesting success story in re-engaging a population that for whatever reason left. And I think you're right, Jared. You know, if we just say goodbye to people that had a relationship with us, the cost in the process of building something new is so hard. It is, but it also goes back to, you know, when we prospected this individual and it could have been decades ago, right? Really institutionalizing that knowledge in our donor database to know what engaged this person in the beginning, right? Was it children? Was it education? Was it a certain program that still exists or has an expansion product? How can we go back to that individual? So it really does go back also into how you're managing your donor information. Yeah, I think it's a, I think it's something that we've got to as a sector really recognize that it is a value and it's an asset. If we walk away from it, then we're imperiling our organization. It's just not safe. Okay, this is kind of one of our last questions, so to speak, and Tony, this speaks, I mean, too, when we first met you, we were in the thick of the pandemic. Nobody knew one another for more than this, you know, hype. Yeah, because, right? We haven't been meeting in person. Right. So now we're moving from this virtual relationship to the in-person and we're wondering, do we need to reorder things or is that going to shift or just don't worry about it or what are your thoughts? Yeah, no, nothing really shifts in terms of the call-selling cycle. I mean, it's, you know, whether again, the interaction is face-to-face, you know, meeting across a table, literally like a table from each other face-to-face via Zoom. I think it's safe to say that this part of our landscape will remain and that folks will continue to lean into this kind of, you know, this kind of engagement and communication. But no, it really doesn't. You know, step one, your prospecting doesn't change, your pre-approach doesn't change, you know, probably, you know, not until step four, step five, might a few things change. But again, that's only in the way in which you're convening. Nothing changes in terms of the strategies or the philosophies that support those individual steps. So no, that's the beauty of the curriculum and what really supports, I think, Jared, like you were saying earlier, kind of the evergreen nature of the call of selling strategy is that it works. Whether, again, we're sitting across from the table, across the table from each other or whether we're convening virtually via Zoom or some other platform. And I don't think this virtual component will go away. I think it is here to stay. I think some individuals may, you know, prefer this over in-person for multiple reasons. I know, you know, invitations have started to come into me for networking and in-person events. And it's like, I cannot be at these three places within this amount of time. If they were online, absolutely. I sit right here and I jump in and out, you know, accordingly, there is no more transportation time in a setting like that. So, you know, I think offering this is a great opportunity. And we have talked about with you, Tony, that in-person doesn't always mean, like, physically, sitting across that table. This is an in-person meeting and a digital vehicle. And I do think that a lot of people will still prefer that. We look at, you know, all the statistics and polls that are going on, LinkedIn and other social media platforms asking employees how they wish to continue their engagement with throughout their career. And I kind of think we're gonna see that same parallel or that same crossover into donor relationships. Yeah, I think so too. Absolutely. We have to be mindful of that. We've talked a lot, I mean, in terms of, you know, the evergrade even of these episodes, we haven't talked, you know, a lot about kind of the landscape that we've been experiencing during these shows being, you know, being recorded. But, you know, but we've seen folks, you know, folks really leaning in and again, embracing professional development in ways that they never did before because of the accessibility and because, you know, of us removing the travel component. Right. Okay, so that, you know, some donors understand that there is a large expense. I shared, my brother does, I'm fundraising for a large university and he closed a multi-million dollar gift via telephone. So, I think that's, I think that's one of those things Jared, I think you and I saw in the very beginning of this pandemic where those folks that were like, oh, you can't ask for money, you know, in a virtual environment, that's, you just can't do that. And then the others that were like, are you kidding? Let's go. And so big, big difference. Now, okay, we have one last question. And so, you know, again, one last question, we'll have more questions for you. But today, do you think that it is a good idea to use the knowledge of cause selling strategy in job postings? Tony, you know this, we are seeing so many jobs opening up, postings everywhere. It seems like there aren't enough people to fill, you know, these jobs and it's such a critical thing. I'm wondering what are your thoughts on this? Well, you know, I'd certainly like to think that for a candidate that's applying for a position for them to say that they have earned a cause selling certificate through the fundraising Academy of National University, that that would, you know, kind of elevate their chances and help them kind of rise above the crowd. But definitely, you know, job postings should specifically inquire about an individual's success with one-on-one fundraising or, you know, you should incorporate, you know, ask for the candidate to share a story with you around their success and securing a gift from an individual. So, you know, so I definitely think being more intentional in the hiring process, whether it's something in the job posting specifically around this or where you're crafting questions as part of the interview process where, again, you know, please share with me a story where you secured a gift from an individual and what was that like for you, right? So that you're getting a good understanding of their skillset around securing gifts and their capability of building relationships. And please start posting salaries and job postings. Yes, absolutely. Thank you. Thank you. That's a whole different show I know, but since we're talking about, you know, and I would say we know, you know, we know at the fundraising Academy that our terminology like cost selling is, you know, is different for the space. So, you know, saying cost selling may not resonate with a candidate, but if you say, you know, if you use, you know, get our, the secondary part of that is cost selling relationship driven fundraising, right? So if you talk about relationship driven fundraising and you're posting again in your questions, I would totally encourage that and I think it's very appropriate. Cool, okay. Wow, well, this has been great. And I love that we got to fire so many different questions at you. We run a remind everybody that the cost selling strategy with all of the phases and the individual steps, we have taken all of that content, put it together so that you can catch up or brush up depending on what it is that you need or your team needs. So we want to encourage you with that. Here's Tony Bell's information, Fundraising Academy, great website, really an interesting approach to what is going on and I think, Jared, we agree what we need in our sector more professional approaches to this process. So Tony, thank you for championing this. We really, really appreciate it. Again, I'm Julia Patrick. I've been joined by the amazing nonprofit nerd herself, Jared Ransom, CEO of the Raven Group. We want to make sure that we recognize Fundraising Academy that came to us with a really innovative idea about taking this vast amount of information and training and putting it into a process whereby our viewers could kind of engage and keep going throughout the course of a time where there was a lot of change and a lot of questioning about how we were all going to be working. So this has been a really cool relationship. Again, our presenting sponsors without you, we would not be here. Jared, you just let me know that we've got some new sponsors coming in and that are gonna be moving forward with us. So that's very, very exciting. What another great episode. We are so honored to have your time today, Tony and Jared. Thank you. It's been a lot of fun. I've learned a lot. There's even more to learn. And until next time, as we like to remind everyone, stay well so you can do well. Thanks, Tony.