 The bigger point here, I think, is we have to come up with a positive model of fatherhood that does not rely on the traditional economic relationship between men and women. Husband and father used to be almost like a redundancy in the sense that it went together. The problem with that is that in an era where the women's movement has largely successfully achieved its principal goal of economic independence for women, which at the risk of repeating in a way that sounds defensive is a great thing. What does that mean? Fathers. And my argument is that we have to ensure that fatherhood matters in and of itself. Dad's matter, period. Not dad's matter because they bring bread into the family. Dad's matter as husbands. Dad's matter because they can help mom. Dad's matter, period. Dad's matter whether they live with the kid or without the kid. They matter whether they're married or unmarried, whether they're divorced or not divorced. And the problem here is that on the conservative side of this argument, there's a view that the only way to resuscitate fatherhood is to bring back marriage on its old terms. No chance. No one wants it, and there's no way to bring it back anyway. There's no way back where we can't steer this car using the rear view mirror. But on the other hand, there's a kind of view on the left, which is like, well, do dads really matter anyway? I mean, like mums can do just as good a job on their own. Are they a bit surplus to requirements when they're once they've done the fertilization bit? And not taking fatherhood seriously because, quote, father's rights is now seen as this sort of alt-right toxic thing that feminists need to be against. Whereas in fact, of course, feminists should be at the forefront of helping fathers to be more equal partners because that will be good for women as well as good for children. And so we need to refound fatherhood just as this independent social institution because otherwise the message to dads is, well, you didn't make it as a breadwinner. You didn't make it as a husband. So see ya. And that's a very, very negative message. And I honestly think it's how a lot of men feel today. And it's a classic example of this gap that they're falling into. And so the message has to be dads matter in and of themselves. So among my proposals are equal custody in the event of separation, especially for unmarried fathers. Unmarried fathers have terrible legal rights right now in the US. In every US state, if the parents aren't married, the default is full custody for mom. The father has to go to court, right? Whereas if you're married, then you have some rights built into the marriage contract. But as we just discussed, there's a huge class gradient in marriage. So the most vulnerable men are the ones that are going to struggle with this the most. And then secondly, if we're going to have paid leave, which I think we should in this country, we should really give more support to families that should be on an equal basis for fathers and mothers. We need to send the message in practice and in rhetoric. Dads matter as much as moms and they matter whether they're with the mom or not. And regardless of what the paycheck is. Now, that isn't to say that it's not good to be committed parents together. And it isn't to say that fathers don't still have a providing responsibility. It's just to say that they share that responsibility now. In a world where 40% of our family's breadwinners are women, we ain't turning back the clock to the world where it was all men. And so let's not try and turn back the clock, but that's, but the alternative of turning our back on men is, which is the right one to turn back the clock and the left one to turn their back. And then we wonder why men are being drawn off into some uncomfortable places for us. It feels like there's this perverse incentive that's happening societal where you touched on this earlier that men on average are earning less now than they did in the past. But we still want to be the breadwinner. So that forces us to stay longer hours, pick up the side hustle, take on more work, and of course, alleviate ourselves of the responsibility of the kin work. And it's really the kin work that we're arguing for as fathers that has a huge influence on the child's development, their ability to understand how to communicate with both genders, how to reason, how to solve conflict. We had Warren Farrell on the show a few years ago to talk about this role that, again, many people don't realize that fathers actually play in a child's development. Intuitively speaking, we view women as nurturing. We can very clearly see the motherly role and the influence that a mom has on children. But classically speaking, societally speaking, culturally speaking, we do just put dads in the breadwinner category. And if they're falling behind and they're unable to earn at the same rate, well, that just further incentivizes them to find a second job to be the Uber driver to take on the side hustle and put the kin work either onto the woman or outsource it completely. And what we've seen with the rise in childcare costs, that becomes a very toxic brew where the dad really has no incentive to be further involved in these relationships because he can't possibly keep up economically. I want to be careful here not to give the impression that we think that those dads who are still the main breadwinner aren't doing a great job. I think it's just more about the choices that families are making now.