 There's a local battle in the All Progressives Congress right now over a judgment that was issued a while ago. And the man in the middle here is the chairman of the Caretaker Committee, Maimala Bhuni. And lots of questions over the legality of his chairmanship, or you juxtapose that with Article 174 of the APC Constitution, which states that no officer in any organ of the party shall hold an executive position of office in government. And also, Section 183 of the Nigerian Constitution, which goes on to say that a governor shall not, during the period when he holds office, go ahead to hold any other executive office or paid employment in any capacity whatsoever. And that's why Maimala Bhuni seems to be a subject of controversy right now in the All Progressives Congress. Joining us to discuss this is a risk and policy management expert, Mr Oshinowo Ibrahim. Good morning. Thanks for joining us. Good morning, guys. Good morning. Good morning. Good morning. Thank you. Let's begin with how you assessed that Supreme Court judgment that has now put the fate of Maimala Bhuni hanging in the balance. Yes. Thank you for having me, and it's a pleasure to be here once again. I would like to make some correction and clear some doubt in terms who are recharging or rewriting the Supreme Court judgments about our great party. I know most of the references that have been found, like mentioned, it's all about the Supreme Court's excellency, about the judgment that was delivered 43. I won't say that the judgment has never, in any, in any chapter of the judgment, I think the judgment came out, but I think these previous, you know, midway, committee, Wednesday, Thursday, you know, some of our party leaders and party members, we just, you know, have to go through it. I'm not a lawyer, but of course I have some very strong background on the elements of law and the rest of it. So at any point this section, Article 17, that has been mentioned, however, this is our constitutional view of the Supreme Court, I'm showing you, it has no judgment under the fact that it has no effect on Governor Bullion's being in office. The Article 17 states clearly that the party, the party can, we have, can organize or inaugurate an adult committee. An adult committee has no salary, adult committee has no benefit. It's just a voluntary job. And the judgment clearly states that the party or the owner of the national chairman's office is not part of the process of nomination. The process of nomination starts from, on those states, from the world, from the world to local government, to local government to the state. These are the people that voted for Achilles Nogu, not Governor Bullion. It's not the one that nominated Governor Achilles Nogu. It's just the custodian, the vacant, in a pristine national leadership. That's all. So there's no merit or basis for cancellation of denomination. Denomination is not, is constitutional, is thorough, is decent. Mr. Pistoshinaur. Pistoshinaur. And if all those are party guys, so everybody should not be mentioning Article 17, Section 1 is the 3 of the Constitution. Pistoshinaur. So it's not going to be clear what the issue is at all. Yeah, so you've stated that, but I think one of the concerns, and the way that it has been painted is, you know, basically has been lucky that he was able to skip this stage and has been, of course, granted the governorship per seat. But the challenge really is with further elections in the APC, and I think that is what Fester Skyamur was pointing out, that if this goes like this way, it is possible that the chairmanship of May Malabuni will be challenged in court with other APC elections in the state and at the federal level. So isn't that a big enough concern, seeing that both the APC's constitution and the Nigerian constitution state clearly, that as a governor, he should not be at the same time the chairman of the Ketka Committee? You just said it, no, Ketka Committee. It's not the only Ketka Committee chairman that we have, of committee chairman that we have. The governor is sexual racing. Governor Suley of Nassarawa State is also a member of another committee. Other governors are clearly one of the two committees of my party. This is one of two. I wonder why this is all about Mune, Mune, Governor Mune. You can pick other committee chairmen, other committee chairmen who are chairing other committees. It's the same process. They are not any salary, it's not an executive job. The one and second one committee of Nigerian constitution you have mentioned, specifically states that executive office is not collecting any salary. It's just a voluntary, a voluntary activity. That's what is coming up. So I don't want to rejoin the issues with my dear friend and brother, Festos Kiyamu S.A. We have what I say in the cabinet. I was expecting, I don't know if you have, of course, see a red work of the national asset. It's one of the sound, one of the sound member of a party, legally. And other member of the party, so he has raised his opinion. It doesn't mean his opinion is legally correct. So Mr. Ibrahim, he's one of the three. And one of the three said an executive position was so ever during the PDP, during the former national chairman of PDP, the former governor of Niger State, so many committees, and I believe it was the committee chairmen. When they removed Muazzou, somebody said, came in as an interim chairman, an interim committee, to champion the activities of the party. So it's not a big issue. Mala Mie said also, as submitted his own legal opinion about it, I understand what all these, you know, what PDP can mention is saying. You know, they're just looking for a loophole, but the judgment is out. Well, it's not just the PDP. And that's why I mentioned Festos Kiyamu. It's not the PDP now. So are you saying that Festos Kiyamu may not understand? Festos only made his own submission. It doesn't mean he's correct. Mr. Kitola, I say, he's a legal advisor of the party. He's one of the best lawyer in this country, especially from the South West. So he has made his own submission, same goes to Professor Yemio Shibani. Same goes to Govno Fashioner. People like Mame, he's also a lawyer. He has made his own submission. And I'm sure you are aware that our Govno's were in Abu Dhabi last night making other submissions, doing other, you know, getting other external legal opinions. So there's no issue. Both Festos' race was just a pure concern. And those concerns have been attended by them through the general consideration. Okay, Mr. Ibrahim, I wanted to ask you. So for me, I believe the party is on the right path and we can proceed with our Congress's convention at the end of the day. Okay, I think this whole crisis all began with that nomination of Akira Dulu. You mentioned here that it did not. But that's what we have in the news that it all begins with the fact that he made that, he nominated Akira Dulu for that election. And moving on, you mentioned the fact that these is a voluntary office that they're not being paid salaries. But that's what we have in Nigeria's constitution. Looking at the APC constitution, it went on to clearly state that, you know, no governor should actually have, go ahead and head an organ of the APC. So in this case, does it not mean that the APC is actually... What's sexual? What's sexual? We're talking about that same section 17. So when you look at how Boni was, you know, ascended into that role as the chairman of the Ketaka Committee, considering the article 17 of the APC constitution, does it not then mean that the APC itself is violating its own constitution? Please, article 17, this is article 17. I want you to mention where that this constitution and a constitution are part of this constitution. The Southwest Committee on APC constitution in 2013, I'm part of it. I'm one of the Southwest states. Now, look at this article 17. Don't mind all those who are diagnosing. During any time that there's a convention, congresses, people try to hold one or two party arms and it's not a big deal that you are seeing this opinion. There is no way here. I'm seeing it here. This is article 17, 10 of... Now, let's go back. What you are saying is that a government cannot hold any office. The same constitution empowers the House to set up a standing and a government committee. This is it. And this will be inaugurated by the National Executive Committee. Mr. Ibrahim, my name... The government is not doing any executive or page job. So you don't agree that this is an executive... This will be a chairman of the committee on agriculture, chairman of the annual committee on digital investment, chairman of the committee on mobilization and party evaluation. Mr. Ibrahim, are you then... So are you then saying that you would not describe him being chairman of this committee as an executive office? You don't think it's the way it is being painted. You think it's just a mere voluntary... Look at the... Look at the Supreme Court, the 4th or 3th, they clearly mentioned that the process of nomination, the way of PDP is that the nomination of a candidate is invalid. But the Supreme Court, the wise men, the 4 wise men mentioned that the process of nomination of any candidate must be constitutional and followed the electoral guideline which the nomination of a candidate is strictly in compliance with the constitution and the electoral guideline. Meanwhile, when it does not conduct primary, it does not, it's not the one that voted for candidate. The process is mandated from understate, from understate, from his work to local government to state and the process to dimensional officers. So that's just what happened. Mr. Ibrahim, I'm... And Mr. Ibrahim, the committee, that's why I mentioned that. Why don't you speak to the next one, the committee? Okay. Mr. Ibrahim, I want... Mr. Ibrahim, I want us to take this step by step and maybe go back to how my Malabuni became the chairman of the Ketoka Committee of the APC. We remember when the APC had that leadership crisis back in 2020 with Victor Guiadom and all of that. And the APC went ahead to actually appoint my Malabuni as chairman of the Ketoka Committee when they dissolved their national working committee. So you're saying there's a voluntary role. He's not being paid. I don't know about him being paid, but the voluntary is what's in contest here because my Malabuni was actually appointed by the APC as that role. So are you saying that appointment is not an executive office? That's what I said. It's not an executive office. It's a committee job that is excellent since during the... It's not doing any paid job. It's just a domination that, okay, come and serve on madam social security, come and chair this committee for ten or three months or four months. No letter of appointment. It's just a voluntary job. So if it's during a voluntary job, acting on behalf of APC. Who knows the activities of the party according to the official? Okay, so Mr. Ibrahim, if you say this is a... Mr. Ibrahim, if you say this is a voluntary job, and we know that right now, the fact that Boonee is the bone of contention, that's the reason why lots of people are concerned. Some people are saying this is unconstitutional, others are saying no, it's legal. Since it's a voluntary job, to solve these issues, would you recommend that Boonee just step down? Yes, that's the very serious question and I will have to take a breath to, you know, to go into that. Personally, personally, I will advise that there is no way we will amount crisis to crisis. If I'm in a position to recommend or to perform solutions to all these issues, I would study the Supreme Court judgment because three is a good number, four is a brilliant number, three is a good number, four is a lovely number. So somebody said to me some days ago, you know the judgment is clear, one is one, the margin is one, so one is the winning number there. What are parceled has to do in one and possibly, possibly because he's doing a good job, is really good job. And we have recommended also to seek further external opinion and this step down, and we have also done, there's a committee I'm part of right now that we're looking into other areas that I can discuss on the national team. But I can with him opinion right now is to allow him to finish what he has started. He's on a lovely path, he's doing very well. He has been able to bring three governors into our party. Uncountable senators, a suppression member, former senators, even a BOT member of the PDP, and some governors are coming, particularly one in the southwest, in the southern parts of the country, in the same, probably two or three in the southern parts of this country, including Governor Wicke, possibly. He's driving, he's a good party man, there are no things he was in CPC, he moves as the substantive secretary of our party, internal secretary, substantive secretary of what we see, is a gentle criminal man. So I would advise the party to allow him to finish his term, to take us into the convention and of course the national chairman, we imagine. What I would say is that the convention should come on time, so that we can have a lot of time to do some other things and look focused, because 2023 is just within 2022. We are just going into electoral 2023 February, all the process of nomination party activities will start in 2022. So what I would advise the leadership of the party is to allow the convention to come on time. There is no time to waste. We know that PDP are watching, they are, of course, labor. Trying to see where we're going to nominate many from the north or from the south, they can take advantage of that. So they should stop opposing. They should stop opposing to our party. A single guy, if another Christmas, as I dragged their party, I took color on another form. A single, just one person, as I dragged their party. Because he has the model for Christmas. So they should stop having their space. Well, I always just want to... APC is on the right track. Like you said, they are on the right track and you would ask that Bhuni finishes his tenure. I really just wanted to say that the conversations here are really not about how the PDP is faring. It's really about Festus Keamo's views and, of course, other APC members that have thought that Bhuni should step down so that the APC doesn't have any legal challenges going forward. Because Akira Dulu's case has, of course, been settled. But the fears are with future elections for the governorship and, of course, with the 2023 general elections. Like you've stated, it's nothing illegal that he's doing. And it's pretty much the same thing with Ovi Omagege who says, you know, pretty much the same thing that the executive seats are the, you know, position as the category committee chairman is not an executive seat and neither is it a salaried seat. How do you, of course, see things playing out in the next couple of years all the way to the build-up of the elections? A lot of things go on foot. One, you know, defections, back and forth. Some people is going to leave APC, that's for sure. The defections season is years to come. It's like a premiership season. By the last quarter of this year, you will see a lot of the infection. After the nomination, probably after the convention, people are still going to leave APC. But APC will gain more from PDP because PDP is still not, you know, we have no position in this country. As a Democrat, I would prefer a very sound position. We wish our party well. We are expecting the president to come back so that, of course, the lack of a party can hold that we can have, you know, substantive guidelines on how to move forward. Of course, our party will increase some of our social benefit, will increase some of our activities in terms of infrastructure, you know, security that has really, you know, especially in South Africa to increase it. And, you know, we, particularly on external board, you know, we are advising as professionals to measure the risk above security for a load, especially on loads that are not, you know, productive. You know, there is no way that you will deal with external and foreign load on capital projects that will, the risk level in terms of payment, in terms of, you know, economic implications and the rest of it, because in the country, it's so dependent on foreign aid, that's its own implication. So we are advising and passing professionally on how to measure and calculate our risk in terms of security, you know, foreign loads. You know, also, what is the risk level on some of the projects that are, you know, kind of a minister works, how are they mentioning the economic impact of those projects in terms of, you know, building roads, rails and, you know, major infrastructure, like for the bridge in the southeast, forward. The second Niger bridge. Second Niger bridge, which is one of the major, you know, investments in this administration. Is it going to be a PPP arrangement? Is it going to be, you know, a toll free? Because of course, right now, there is, of course, from my own record, almost about 40 billion is on that project, you know, projected for. Are we going to commercialize that to have more revenue? You know, I read in the paper, the fact of our submission that I would increment in, you know, plate numbers and it was okay, you know, because of the economic aspect right now. Who advised, actually, at the moment to, you know, discuss with these agencies that, you know, increasing, you know, some certain level of, you know, social realities, you know, like plate numbers, like travel lenses at this point in time, you see really, man, that is not the way to increase your revenue. You know, what is custom doing? How do we propose it custom as a, you know, right now, we can look into what custom means doing after we've blocked the proposed, our land borders, what's going on there? You know, people come in from, you know, other parts of the country, like, like, like, casino, like, like, car, you know, you know, they share a lot of boundaries, you know, with all this, you know, coming around in the jail. People are, you know, a lot of smuggling after we protect our land borders. What can we do to, you know, to mitigate, you know, loss of revenue and increase their travel? Do you think there's still enough time, between now and 2023, to get these things, you know, sorted? These challenges that you've mentioned, you know, and also bearing in mind that there's also been complaints with regards to loans that you've also mentioned. You know, how profitable have these loans been to the Nigerian populace and how are we ever going to pay back these loans? We currently are borrowing every year to finance our budget because of a budget deficit. Do you think that by 2023, we would be in a, you know, much better place economically and we would be bold enough as a country to say that we've achieved, you know, very, very much with the amount of money that we've borrowed? I can tell you for free that this government, no government anywhere in the world, especially in a developing country like ours, will survive without, you know, going for, you know, foreign aid, foreign loans. You can do it with aid, foreign aid is important. For instance, you can't build a real, in this present, you know, defective microeconomy that we are managing in West Africa. We are so much dependent on foreign, you know, products and production level is so small, you know, we can't really produce more because of, I call it the argument, of course, to invest hugely of power. Because when you have power, sustainable power, you will be able some segment of the economy will be able to try, you know, some SMEs will be able to survive in terms of, you know, the activities are contributing, they are contributing to the GDP of the country. Right now, there's no country in West Africa that will survive without foreign aid. So, how do I mean? To build, of course, I have taken away from Lagos to Ibadom and from Ibadom to Kano, or from Lagos to Kano is coming up soon. So these are capital projects, capital investment. We don't have the job. I don't know if you will remember that when we came into office, the high prices at that time was about $24 or something like that. These are certain things that were forced on a new administration. We don't have order in Ibadom that. I was advising the minister of Miners too, the architect He was my colleague back in the days at the state level. We have advised that both federal government can generate on mining a loom in this country is sufficient of agriculture. We have also made submissions on devolution of power. Agriculture is on some concurrent list. Of course, states can also do one or two things in agriculture. Why don't we do mine and steel also on concurrent? So that the state can make use of what they have at their back. I don't think and I've said this over and over that I don't think we have lack of ideas on what we need to do as a country in order to increase our revenue. I've spoken about blocking leakages. Of course, the mines and steel development agriculture, what the customs like you mentioned is doing. There are so many ways with Nigeria can increase its revenue and reduce its need to borrow. But in six years if we are where we are today do you think that we maybe could have done better with the time that you said we got into power? So do you think that your party could have done better with regards Nigeria's revenue generation? Unless we are honest with you we are doing very, very fine what we can do better we are doing very, very fine. But we can do better. The president has done well. I can tell you that. The president is currently not in the country according to reports he's in the UK for it doesn't mean anything he's not in the country. I'm just saying for health reasons once again and of course this was not part of our plan today but let's bring that in. Do you think in six years we could have had better health care enough to have the president treated here? We are developing our next sector. Look at the last budget I don't know if you have seen it. The president is able to manage a pandemic that could have consumed more than more than over 10 or 5 million Nigerians for free. The president has done very, very well in that sector in the next sector. We have to curtail the pandemic the America the superpower of the world couldn't do that they had a president that could not manage look at the numbers in America look at the cases they start the fact they have all that it takes to manage this pandemic they could not do it the Americans are frustrated they shouldn't their frustration and the poor by forcing that gentleman out because of the pandemic it could not control it it could not use hold at his disposal to shred and contain but he is able to do that he contain he contain all this the the programming and I give it to the secretary of the federation as well Bosmo staffer they are working all night alright Mr Ibrahim did you and I would not be here we don't have anything to do that we don't have somebody close to me so we have to I want to employ the media to give it to Mr President he has no value when it comes to health management and you know in this country and not to give it to the minister the minister for state as well alright we wish we had more time we wish we had more time to go deeper into these issues but unfortunately we have to wrap up here but thank you anyway for joining us we appreciate your time this morning always interesting to listen to your perspectives always it's my pleasure, nice to have you guys thank you so much alright seeing that he is a member of the APC if we had more time I'd love to ask him more questions about this caretaker committee we know that when this was instituted in 2020 it was supposed to be just for a few months with the whole crisis with the national working committee of the APC when it was resolved but then you know this has now gone on longer than expected the president has extended the tenor of May Malabunia's chairman but we know that the mandate should be for the organ of the national working committee not for the person regardless of whoever is chairman of the caretaker committee so I was going to ask him how soon should we be expecting to see a well constituted national working committee of the all progressives congress so is it going to be just the caretaker committee in 2023 but I guess we'll have to wait and see what the answers will be we'll take a break here and go straight to the southeast to check up on the IPOB citadel