 Thank you for staying with us. You're still watching The Breakfast on Plus TV Africa. Well, now it's time for our hot topic and it says, federal government issues executive order on health workers leaving Nigeria. That's the hot topic we're looking at and we have a guest. Our guest today is Nick Agouli, is a public affairs analyst and we're just going to be having a conversation. Good morning, Mr. Nick. Thank you for joining us. Good morning and good morning to all of you. Okay, fantastic. So there's an executive order issued by the federal government on health workers leaving Nigeria. Now we've seen the rise of people leaving in general, not just health workers, people in the tech industry, people in the banking industry. People just leaving because they feel like the economy isn't the best at the moment. Healthcare sector is not so great. When you think of the security as well, so many things, so many factors, leads to their decision of leaving. But one thing is for sure, we have a brain drain in the healthcare system because we don't have so many workers and the little that we have, they're all leaving to in search for greener pastures. So let's start with the root cause of the matter. Why are people leaving? Before we can now even go into the executive order that is being issued by the federal government, why do you think people are really leaving Nigeria? It's very clear why people are leaving Nigeria. And for the records, it's not only healthcare workers that are leaving Nigeria. A lot of people are leaving Nigeria. When flights depart today, a significant number of people on those international flights departing Nigeria are going without the intention of returning. Some of them have proper documents in their hands. They've got like immigration documents or they go work permits and they are going legitimately to relocate to those countries. Some of them are carrying the wrong papers. They have visitor visas. And yet with the visitor visas in their mind, they don't want to come back. They never intended that they were coming back. And unfortunately, that increases the difficulty of other people, other Nigerians to secure visas to those countries because perhaps unknown to the people who are engaging in this man practice, the countries abroad all have data. If they issue a visa, they know that this visa has been issued. And when you arrive the country, they know that you have arrived. When you leave the country, they know you have left. And if you didn't leave the country, you also know you have not left the country. So as they see more and more people carrying the Nigerian passport arriving and not leaving, they make more difficult. The grant of visas for other people, regardless of the reason that they want to visit. So it's not just head care workers. The Nigerian situation is becoming difficult. And it will surprise Nigerians to know that a chunk of those living, I will even say that the majority of those living without the intention of coming back are also actually doing supposedly doing well in Nigeria. They have good paint jobs that they can fend for themselves. They have their homes, they have their cars, they have good salaries and all of that. But it's much more than that. For a lot of people, there is something we call in Nigeria that Nigeria happens to you. You know, perhaps you have seen someone close to you kidnapped or perhaps even your say kidnapped. You know, your parents kidnapped, you know, friends kidnapped. You're thinking about it's possible that you could be the next kidnapped victim. You know, you have your cars. We don't have the good roads to drive them on. You have your home. You come back home. There's no electricity. You know, you have to find a way to get electricity. You know, if it is the generator, of course, the diesel you were buying at 100 and something, Naira is now 1500. You know, and then you're talking about education for your children. The education for your children, you have to go abroad to get education for your children. Which means you are any Naira to translate it into foreign currency to pay school fees. Same thing for healthcare and things like that. So all these things put together get to a point that Nigeria just decides that they have had enough regardless of the jobs that they are doing. They have had enough and they want to go and they sell off everything and just depart. So the only way to solve this situation is to try and make Nigeria more livable than what it is now. That's just the only way that this thing can be resolved. So it's not just healthcare workers. If you take the statistics, there are people in the IT sector, any of the hot selling skills, healthcare, IT, you know, and then, you know, anything that has to do with especially skills. You find that Nigerians are living there because they are attracting better pay as well. And I can tell Nigeria something that will probably shock them if they are not away. In the UK here, where I'm speaking from right now, they are also having a problem. A healthcare worker is relocating from the UK to Australia, you know. So this is a big problem for the UK. But luckily for the UK, as their healthcare workers are relocating to Australia, Nigeria healthcare workers are moving from Nigeria and are coming in here. So Jack Bah is a syndrome that is probably global. But Nigeria's on is a bit too much now because on every young man's mind, today in Nigeria, they want to live. What is prompting this, you know, the government's decision? Because now the government is issuing an executive order and people are having that wants to live Nigeria. So what is prompting this decision? Are they trying to stifle, you know, people not being able to live when they want? I want to understand why the government is doing this at the moment. Yeah, definitely. Obviously, that's what the government has been doing. We've had cases of the government taking the wrong approach with this Jack Bah syndrome, especially the one in the healthcare sector. There was a time that I think there was a bill in the Senate where they wanted to force doctors to serve Nigeria for a period of time. Yeah, about two to four years. Yeah, before they were able to live. And then there is the recent one with the the the nursing council bringing in draconian draconian policies to try and stop nurses from living. I mean, I call it draconian, for instance, in a nursing council that actually certify the nurse as capable and competent to practice nursing in Nigeria is not demanding 100,000 naira from that nurse to to certify to to confine their certification. Because that makes sense. This is the body that awarded the certification. So if a foreign body now rise to them and say is this person certified by your body, you are now looking for 100,000 naira from this nurse to to be able to to say I awarded the certificate, you know, and then they put the period to do it to be like one year or a year or two. The nurses came out protesting. I don't know where that matter is right now. And then when I watch the I don't know whether it's the director general or whoever is in charge of the nursing council come on TV. I really felt bad the way the man was talking, you know, because, you know, I don't think Nigerian leaders understand what leadership is all about. You are leading nurses. Your job is to ensure their welfare is okay. And you are sitting on TV and arrogantly talking talking against them and making life difficult for them. And then this this one that has come now, which is the executive order to say where you have to resign before you go. Okay, to me, I don't have a problem with that. I mean, the government position is that a head care worker that wants to jacquard decide that they will take leave of absence instead of resigning. And because it is leave of absence, they are still on the payroll and the government is unable to replace them. So first and foremost, I don't even know if the government will be able to know that those who took leave of absence are in Nigeria or abroad. But if push comes to show for me, if a medical worker is faced with that obstacle or hurdle, they can resign. Yeah, resign so that your position is declared vacant. And somebody else in Nigeria can take your job. But on the whole, the approach of the government to this issue is very wrong. There are two ways that government could have approached this issue. The first way is that you need to figure out why am I losing my head care workers to other nations? What is it that these nations are offering my people that is taking them away from me? Because you know, going abroad, a lot of people don't understand that going abroad is a major sacrifice. You are leaving your comfort zone, your homeland, your country, the place where your passport cannot be revoked. And you are going to this new place. You don't know why you're going to meet there. You know, it's going to be a new culture, new weather, like Nigeria, new weather that we speak now is vitally cold because of weather, you know, and then new people new way of doing things and all of that. It's a big change for the people who are living. And then, you know, it's not as if the life abroad itself is all roses, it's not. The things abroad that you will find okay are the basic things of life which Nigeria lacks, things like security, good roads, electricity, water supply, fine transportation system, good health care, education. These are basic things. And because we lack them in Nigeria, when people come abroad, it's as if they gain something. Ordinarily, we should all have these good things in Nigeria as well. Once you take away those things, those basic things that you will now come and find abroad. The rest of life abroad is hard. You earn your salary, you pay your bills. And there are people in this abroad who are unable to break even at the end of the month. You know, so it's tough. People are still on full stamps or going to food banks in the UK here, you know, to try and pay for themselves because things are expensive. They too have been suffering from inflation. So for instance, you come to the UK, you earn like 2000 pounds. You probably use half of that for your rent alone. And you are not yet talking about your other bills like water, electricity, gas, and then you're feeling all those kind of things. So it's a big challenge. And the government should therefore be asking themselves that why will people leave their home, abandon their home, and go to this place? And the government will quickly find out that the reason people are living in those basic things we're talking about, security, water, electricity, roads, education, healthcare. So why is the government on Nigeria year in year out, budgeting, budget out, not providing these basic things in Nigeria? Why are we still driving on debt traps called roads? Why there are no railways? See if I want to leave a budget to let go. So I can just do that journey in two hours. Instead of doing it in a whole day now, at the risk of kidnappers and all of that, you want to go and fly. And I hear that flights are costing like $150,000, $200,000 one way. There's no water here. This thing has big borehole. There's no electricity. You have to look for electricity. Education is nothing, healthcare. Nigeria government should sit back and say, why can't I provide these basic things for my citizens? And I look, if they provide these basic things for their citizens, you will discover that a lot of people are not going to leave Nigeria to go anywhere. They will be in that country enjoying those things. So that is one approach the government can take. The other approach, of course, is that there are still a lot of head care workers in Nigeria who are not in jobs. So instead of government lamenting and weeping like a small boy on this matter, as they are living, why not be recruiting monocies and doctors and pharmacists and all of that in Nigeria into those jobs? Well, I have some statistics to that. In 2021, it was being said that there's a ratio of about four doctors to 10,000 patients. However, in 2023, there is one doctor to 8,000 patients instead of 600 patients in Nigeria. And then it's been said that it would take about 20 years for us to be able to produce enough healthcare workers to cater for the population that we have. So even though you're saying that they need to recruit more people, what if they don't even have such resources? Because people who are studying right now are thinking of how to live. So I think maybe they should be a deep dive into what can we do? So now the question is, what can the government do to ensure that people don't even have to leave? I was having a conversation with a guest some weeks ago, and he talked about the push and pull factor. We have a lot of push factors in Nigeria that is pushing people out. And then all these other countries, they're quite attractive. So they're pulling you into their country because they have all the basic amenities that you need. So what are the things that you think the government can do in Nigeria to ensure that our push factors are not so much? Just like how you're saying in the UK, for instance, people are leaving, migrating to Australia. But they also have push factors, but it's not as much. So you still see a lot of people staying there. And then for a country like us, a lot of people from here are wanting to move there. So that is their own greener pastures. So what can the government do to ensure that our push factors, we're not just pushing people away? Well, as I speak here, I'm aware of nurses who are at our job, looking for jobs in Nigeria. I'm aware of doctors who are just looking, they're just jumping from one clinic, one hospital to the other, they're serving, they don't have a job head down. So what the government of Nigeria needs to do in the short term is create a portal, create like a portal, a central portal where every head care worker can go through and see available job opportunities, whether in government or in the private sector. So private hospitals and clinics and all of that can go onto this portal and advertise the jobs that they have. So that it's easier for nurses and doctors and pharmacists and physiotherapists and all of those people in the head care sector to go to this one place and see available jobs and fill these jobs. So there is definitely a gap between demand and supply because, as we speak, there are doctors and head care professionals, other head care professionals who are at our job. If the government has this portal, they could quickly go to the portal, see an available job and within days they have interviewed and they have filled the role. That way we'll be making maximum use of the available manpower in the head care sector in Nigeria at any point in time. That's not happening right now. So that is one thing the government can do quickly. And of course every year we are producing doctors, our medical schools are producing doctors, pharmacists and nurses and all of that. And it's time for government to, with that portal, as they are finishing, they are already on the portal looking at their available job opportunities and filling them. If that happens, you will discover that there will be no head care professional who will be at home today saying, I'm looking for a job. No, they will all be utilized. And I believe that is going to help to a very substantial level the problem that we have now between where jobs are and those who are seeking the jobs. Then the other thing of course is that government can support the training of more head care workers. You know, if you are training them and they are going abroad, you know it's for our benefit because at the end of the day they will try to save some money and send it back home. And that is what we call diaspora remittances. This diaspora remittances goes into the tens of billions of dollars every year. And it's very helpful to the Nigerian economy. Actually, if you train head care professionals and send them abroad, you are exporting. That's what we need. This economy needs export. So we're actually exporting manpower and we will get some dollars to come in into the billions of dollars. Is that no more helpful to us? So the government can actually see this as an opportunity rather than as a problem. You know, I want to see that as an opportunity they will begin to support the training of more head care professionals across the country. Sorry. Okay. So I was going to ask what are the impacts of this new executive order? I mean, like we said, I think I would say that this is an HR situation, not even people just having to leave and say we don't want them to leave. So when you look at it from the human resource aspect, you know that if you are leaving a place, you should resign, especially if you have no idea of coming back or you don't have the decision to say, oh, yes, I'm going to come back here. Your decision is more I'm leaving and I'm leaving for good. But with this executive order being put in place now, and you know it's been issued, so it's almost like a law sort of, what impact do you think this would have on our healthcare sector? What I think is going to discourage those who want to leave, it's not going to discourage them at all. I think the government on Nigeria needs to understand that they are setting policies that they take. They have to think through those policies carefully. I can give you an example, like they think that there's a lot of money in the economy and people are using that money to buy dollars. And that is the reason why the exchange rate is crashing and inflation is going up and all that. And then they decide that they will hack interest rates. You see why that hack in interest rate will not work? Because the man who has money, who not thinks that Naira is becoming valueless and valueless of no value or the ordinary paper? Who now wants to save his money in dollars? Even if you hack interest rate to 100%, he will not go and save the money as the government thinks. Because that man's singular objective is that he wants dollars, he wants his money in dollars so that he can keep it because dollar is the most stable currency. Nigeria Naira is not. The man who has a child abroad that wants dollars to go and pay school fees for his child, even if you hack interest rate to 200%, he's not going to go and put that dollars in the bank. He will not save it because he wants dollars to go and pay his child school fees. And that is why consecutively these interest rates have not done anything to the inflation that the government thinks. So that is where government gets it wrong. They just take a textbook policy and think it will help the situation. And that is the exact thing that is going to happen in this executive order. If you ask the nurses and the doctors and other hacky professionals to resign, I can tell you, if the man gets a job in the UK or Canada or Australia or US, and you say, oh, I'm not giving you a leave of absence, instead, you have to resign. He will resign. He will resign. So this is not going to solve anything. I want the government to know that this is not going to solve anything. I mean, the government can decide on their own to say, well, we're changing the policy to say when you take a leave of absence, we're going to replace you. And when you come back, when you come back, we'll see whether we have a vacancy for you or not. They can do that. That's fine. They can say resign outright, but let me say that this is a valueless executive order. It's not what the paper that the president signed it on, because it's not going to stop these healthcare professionals from going. It will never stop them from going. The only thing that can stop them from going is for the government to sit back and ask the fundamental question. What are the push factors that are pushing our people are just like you said, and then what are the proof factors that are pulling our people to those other nations? And the government don't have to work on those things. If they don't work on those things, they can't stop the syndrome. Where to advise the government on what they can do with certain policies that they can put in place? What would your advice be? Okay, so what I would advise the government, just like I said earlier, the first thing they need to do is a short-term measure. These days, it will just take a day. I think Whiskies can create for them a job portal. Do you understand? Here in the UK, they have the kind of job portal. It should go on the government website. There are jobs that are valid. There is a job portal where you can go. That job portal is going to help the government bridge the gap between head-k workers in Nigeria who are looking for jobs and then the available jobs. Do you understand? There could be a head-k worker in, say, Abuja now who is out of job looking for jobs. Not knowing that there's actually a job in a big portal or in Lagos, you know, in Potakot, where they can actually go take a good job and they are able to fend for themselves, get themselves accommodation and contribute to the head-k delivery in Nigeria. So once government builds that portal, all government jobs, including private sector jobs, who want to subscribe to the portal, come and put their job there. So there is a nurse in Abuja. She just lost her job yesterday, but today she's on the portal and immediately finds a job and she moves into the job. So you now discover that the gap between head-k workers who are available to work but not finding work and the jobs that are available looking for head-k workers will be breached immediately. So there will be ease of movement of head-k workers across board. So that is the short-term measure the government should take immediately. Then, of course, in the medium and long-term government has to say, why am I losing my head-k workers? Why am I losing them? You know, and government has to start dealing with those matters. Some part of it is not just the environmental conditions, but security and good roads and trains and all those things. Part of it is money, pure money. You know, how much have people been paid and how much can what they are being paid command in the market? You know, so you discover that people are actually in jobs, but they are poor. There is poverty in jobs. So government has to be dealing with all those things. But that is going to be on a medium and long-term basis. So that to me will be the two ways that I believe the government can begin to tackle this matter and not the shenanigans that they are engaging themselves in, including the sham of a policy by the nursing council. Well, we hope that they would put certain policies in place that would, you know, actually want people to even stay more and then train more people, like you say, because this would be a great avenue for the exports. So I hope there are things that, you know, they are looking at that would tackle all of these things and just maybe make our economy better and people don't have to leave. But we want to say thank you for coming and having some valuable contributions on this topic. Thank you so much. Thank you and have a nice day to address. You too. Thank you. All right. We've been speaking with Nick Agulay. He's a public affairs analyst and we're talking about the executive order issued by the federal government on health workers and living in Nigeria. We'll go on a short break and when we return, we'll be looking at our next hot topic. So please stay with us.