 Good. Hey. Hi. Welcome to EFF's live stream about net neutrality. I'm Corey Doctro. I'm a special consultant to EFF and this is our legal director, Corinne McSherry. Hi there. Thanks for joining us. We're talking to you today live from our offices in San Francisco and we're talking about last week's net neutrality decision and what will come of it. So Corinne, can you tell us like what is net neutrality? What did the FCC just rule and what does that change? Okay. So net neutrality boiled down to its simplest form is basically a set of rules and principles that say that your ISP or service provider like Comcast, Verizon, AT&T can't unfairly discriminate in how it handles the data that travels over its pipes. That's really what it boils down to. And that set of principles, net neutrality principles have pretty much been in operation and shaped the internet for well over a decade and since around 2005 really and it's really kind of how the internet grew up. And in 2015 the FCC adopted a set of rules to codify those principles and make them legally enforceable after 10 years of back and forth. So that was great and everybody was happy about that or at least 83% of Americans were. But we have a new FCC and the new FCC is chaired by a fellow named Ajit Pai who's been against net neutrality rules from the beginning. Last week the FCC, a majority of the FCC voted to get rid of not just the rules that were adopted in 2015 but importantly to get rid of any net neutrality requirements whatsoever. So that's the really radical move. It's not that the FCC took us back to where we were in 2014 before the order was adopted. What the FCC did is said we don't think we need net neutrality rules at all. Yeah and I think it's significant that not only did they roll us back but they rolled us back in a world in which the ISPs are really different from how they were when the internet started. You know I started with dial-up modems and DSL. There were a lot of phone companies in America and a lot more cable companies in America. There had been a lot fewer mergers and acquisitions. It was harder for them to coordinate their action. So it feels like we had penicillin to fight early germs and then we developed better and better antibiotics to counter this worse and worse pathogen, this concentrated market power. And now we've gone back to penicillin but we've got super bugs. Right. Yeah. That's exactly right. It's incredibly ironic that right now is the time when we would get rid of net neutrality when we desperately needed the most. Yeah. Yeah I remember seeing that more than half of Americans only have one broadband provider. That's right. Yeah. That's right. I mean the FCC tries to tell a story that that's not true because you have options beyond broadband. But the reality is for most Americans for high speed reliable internet access that our companies need and that regular people need to access health information, education, login to school, yeah that's broadband. So does this mean the fight's over? You know the FCC is chaired by an ex Verizon lawyer. He comes along and banks his giant coffee cup and says net neutrality is no longer the law of the land. Do we just go crawl under a rock until the next administration turns over? Absolutely not. There's actually a bunch of paths forward and we need to pursue them pretty much all at once and we are pursuing them all at once. So first initial path we need to lean on Congress. Congress has an option under what's called the Congressional Review Act to basically reverse what happened last week. It has approximately 60 days to do it from when the order is published. That's kind of complicated but basically it needs to happen relatively quickly. But Congress is already hearing from all kinds of constituents and saying we do not like what the FCC just did. So Congress is going to be under a lot of pressure to reverse the FCC's order. So that's job one and that's pressure point one and we will be talking with people over the next couple months and giving them ways to make sure that their representative knows. Then the second thing that can happen is you know state's attorneys general and legislators around the country are looking for ways that they can protect at least the people in their state. And some of those options are harder than others but definitely there's a lot of attorneys generals that are very very focused on this. Related to that we're all going to court. I mean there's no question there's going to be litigation. It's going to take a while because litigation is slow but there are many many people who are ready to go to court and challenge what the FCC did because basically what the FCC did is it said everything we said two years ago the entire world has changed which doesn't make any sense. And as we've pointed out and other people have pointed out also if you look at their sort of the evidence that they put forward to justify what they did just suggest they don't understand how the internet works. So we're going to go to court and explain how the internet works and we think that we can help a judge understand that what the FCC is doing is what's called arbitrary and capricious which you're not allowed to do. Then the last thing that I'm urging people around the country to do is look local. Look local. Lots and lots of cities are interested in creating their own broadband networks. There's lots of different models for doing this and a lot of energy behind it because net neutrality begins at home and cities, mayors and local representatives understand that just like the states need to protect the people in their state the cities need to protect the people in their communities. Yeah I think those are all really good points. I remember reading Tin Woo, the guy coined the term net neutrality, wrote a great op-ed in the New York Times and said that the Supreme Court says that the administrative agencies they're supposed to act on the base of evidence and they can't just make stuff up and that you know the way we know they had enough evidence to make the 2015 order is they made it. And so we're like where's the evidence that the whole world has changed since? So you know that at least gave me a little hope. Yeah I think it's right and one of the things that we noticed in the order is they relied very heavily to justify the switch on evidence that was put into the record by the ISPs themselves which is perhaps not completely reliable. Yeah putting a fox in every hen house is not exactly what we signed up for. Yeah so you know I I wonder about like wireless because we do have a lot more wireless carriers than wired carriers and you know the argument has always been well with enough competition maybe we the net neutrality order doesn't matter because if the cable operators are so crappy that people don't like them then maybe they'll switch somewhere else can we just let competition from wireless solve this problem? Well there's a couple problems with that approach one is that wireless isn't equivalent to broadband for people in many many communities so we're in far from being there yet that's one problem the second problem with it is whether it's wireless or wired when you set up a world in which your ISP your infrastructure is a gatekeeper between you and some service that you want right that's not the internet that we've come to know and love and that's not the internet that we want in fact one of the things that that's going to do is make sure that people who are worried about you know big incumbents like Facebook and Twitter and Google being too powerful without net neutrality rules for wireless and wired you just make sure that they stay powerful because they're going to be the people that can pay the extra fees to make sure that they can you know get the fastest access to the subscribers as opposed to you know the next Twitter the next Google the alternative services that we would like to come to know about yeah I often find out what companies are really thinking by reading the stuff they tell their shareholders because you know ever since Serbians Oxley you know executives that don't tell the truth really face both criminal and civil liability so I read with interest when the CEO of Netflix said you know back in 2015 we fought really hard because it was an existential threat we thought without net neutrality the ISPs who competitors of ours are going to put us out of business this time around we're still going to fight hard but we don't think it's an existential threat to us because we can afford to pay for extra carriage and people like our service you know it's if it's the next Netflix that we really got to watch out for not because we don't love getting video from Netflix but because if we it you know it seems really unlikely that this Netflix is the last great company wherever gonna have all the innovation happened ten years ago we're done now right right exactly I mean if you think about we have this political moment where people are quite critical of Facebook and Twitter and other platforms or how they handle information well don't you want a world in which maybe you could experiment with an alternative yeah now a GPIs congressional allies like Marsha Blackburn who's running for the Senate next year I understand has put forward a bill that they call a net neutrality bill and they say that it kind of finds the balance point what does that bill look like and is it isn't going to address the concerns we have no it's not we're that it's basically what's happening is that people are putting forward woefully inadequate pseudo net neutrality alternatives that are signed off on by the ISPs they're fine with them maybe but don't fall far short of what we had with the 2015 order so the Blackburn bill in particular it does ban throttling so that's a good thing and blocking so that's a good thing what it explicitly does not ban is paid prioritization which is the sort of code word for creating internet fast lanes so what's actually doing is it's making sure that net neutrality protections do not include prohibiting internet fast lane so it's actually the opposite of what we want in my view is if Congress wants to step in and do some good here that's great but we're not gonna accept anything less than what we already had sure yeah I mean I always say it's not fast lanes it's slow lanes right it's all the traffic is now in the fast lane the way that they'll put the what they propose to do is like it's like you get in a cab and you say take me to Walmart and they circle the block three times because Costco is paid for premium carriage we may think that Walmart and Costco might be better it might might be improved by like breaking them up into smaller companies or having more competition but even so when you ask the cab driver to take you to one of them that's where you expected to take you not to slow you down because the other one is paid for a fast lane yeah that's exactly right and really what's going to be in the slow lanes isn't just you know services for commerce and so on it's gonna be healthcare it's gonna be access to government information it's gonna be access to job information it's gonna be this kind of basic services that we actually all rely on the internet for every single day I mean we spent a lot of time talking that when we talk about net neutrality we talk about like Netflix and brand names that people know and that's fine but think about all the ways wouldn't that you use the internet it's you know it's it is basic infrastructure now yeah it's that one wire that delivers like free speech a free press freedom of association access to tools and education and civic and political engagement everything we use to measure a civilized society so EFF we started here in the US I used to be FFC European director and I know really well that we have contacts and we do work all over the world we have colleagues in Germany and in South America what about people in other countries what does it matter to them that if that the FCC and the American network providers are going to be able to prioritize some traffic over others well one of the things that's actually happening is it's quite interesting if you look on the international stage because other countries are handling net neutrality quite differently and are prepared to be a good deal more aggressive than our current FCC is prepared to be so I think that's great for people in other countries they have got regulators that are prepared to really step in and protect the open internet for those countries but the reality is internet is international we all know that right and so the worry that I have is that precedents that get set here in the United States eventually get followed in other countries not least because companies here in the United States will pressure people in other countries to follow them yeah I mean one thing we've seen over the years is the US trade representative is like patient zero and an epidemic of crappy internet policy whether that's laws that protect DRM or equivalence to the computer fraud abuse act that the US really likes his trading partners to you know jump off a building with them right that's exactly right and keep in mind just as with in copyright where you talk about you know the mouse that controls everything with Disney you know there's the ISPs that we're talking about are massive and massively profitable and they are very happy to spend a lot of money to make themselves even more profitable yeah yeah well so let me remind you you're watching a live stream from the electronic frontier foundation here in sunny San Francisco this is Corinne McSherry a legal director of electronic frontier foundation I'm Corey doctor I'm a special consultant here and we're talking about net neutrality and I'd like to move on to talking about the arguments of net neutrality opponents so they say that all the FCC did was roll us back to 2015 and you said earlier that they rolled us back to year zero square those two circles for me yeah well so what they want to argue is that all that happened is that the FCC reversed the 2015 order well that certainly did happen but that's not actually what the FCC is proposing to do what they voted on was actually a whole new approach that said we don't actually need prohibitions against throttling or blocking or fast lines or or slowly you know any of those things all we need is transparency so we just need for the ISPs to be sort of basically honest about what they're doing and then the federal trade commission will come after them if they're being unfair and deceptive so that's a whole new approach that is very ISP friendly and it's not the way we had it before what we've had from the earliest days of the internet was a sort of set of principles that just said you can you know unfair data discrimination what the FCC is saying now is we're not going to enforce that at all and looking to the FTC to do it the federal trade commission the federal trade commission's focused on consumer protection and policing unfair conduct and that's a fine thing for it to do the problem is number one let's face it these ISPs are going to have clever lawyers that are going to write disclosures that won't really disclose very much secondly it's going to be very difficult for the federal trade commission which is busy policing everything from you know bleach to children's toys to I guess now internet access to actually detect what's happening even it and even if they get complaints and reports from independent people they're really not the people who are best equipped to do this job the agency that has store historically been in charge of internet access is the FCC so it's really strange that it's just decided to sort of abdicate this response abdicate this responsibility completely yeah I mean it's interesting to think about how the FTC might manage this because first of all as you said the FCC has this like deep bench when it comes to understanding telecoms policy which is a pretty difficult and obscure subject but also you know the FTC their their modus operandi the way they're mandated to operate is they warn you and then if you don't comply then they get to do something so I remember when designer wear in Pennsylvania was making spy wear for a laptop larenta own laptops and the larenta own companies were spying on their customers whether they were covertly operating in cameras they were circulating videos of their customers having sex their children in the new they're plundering their hard drives for interesting music to listen to and when the FTC slapped them they said you are required to stop this unless you put it in your fine print from now on that this is going to be the terms on which you rent to own these laptops you know I think we want more than that from from this one wire that's so important in our houses yeah so you know one of the arguments that I've heard from pie and from his colleagues is that well if if this were the kind of thing that carers were really interested in we'd have seen them doing it all the time before that but there's only this handful of examples that we can think of what did the carriers do this kind of discrimination in the past and and will they do more of it yeah I mean they've experimented with this kind of discrimination many times and it's just that we occasionally caught them but actually I think one of the reasons that they didn't do it more is because they weren't allowed to right we had net neutrality principles in place and they got slapped if they got caught doing it but the thing is what happened in 2015 is we had actually legally enforceable prohibitions in advance right we had rules in advance rules of the road that said this is what you can do this is what you can't do I think now they're free to experiment as much as they want and they just have to disclose that they're doing it but again I think you're right you know I don't think disclosure is going to be adequate because no one's going to write a thing that says hi guess I'm slowing your internet down yeah yeah it's like now with now with fewer features it's going to be you know down in the small print underneath by like the thing that says by being dumb enough to buy your internet from Comcast you agree that we're allowed to come over to your house and punch your grandmother and where you're under where it makes some long-distance calls and below that is going to be the thing telling you what their network management rules are so let's name a sheen a little which companies were most heavily involved in lobbying for this all the household names you already know and of course this is Comcast this is AT&T this is Verizon you know some small ISPs also supported it but lots and lots of small ISPs did not so for example speaking not naming and shaming but actually naming and praising like small ISPs like Sonic here in the Bay Area said we don't have any problem with these net neutrality rules from 2015 we're fine yeah yeah I mean I my phone providers a company called Ting and they own small ISPs across America they bought up all these little mom-and-pop cable operators and put in fiber loops and they're definitely very pro net neutrality that it's great that there are those carriers but like it's not like I can get fiber from them you know the town I live in Burbank it has a great fiber network they're just not allowed to let me hook up to it in my home it just it serves Disney it serves Fox it serves Warners it's operated by the city but I don't get to connect to it in my home with my home business it's pretty frustrating yeah well that's your change I mean that's the kind of thing actually I think community should be experimenting with yeah I would say the city of Burbank perhaps should open up for regular people yeah so is this going to hurt network investment or help it you know they said that they said that this was that the 2015 order held back investment are the carriers gonna roll a bunch of money into giving us all fiber now I think not no but the investment argument actually I found particularly frustrating because the thing is that they said the carriers said a lot of things in what they submitted to the FCC and these sort of self-serving comments that they put into the record but they said a very different thing to their investors yeah which is where they're actually legally required to tell the truth and when they're legally required to tell the truth as in their SEC filings they said net neutrality rules the 2015 order is not affecting our investment whatsoever yeah and I think that you know we think about the investment the carriers make we always zero out the biggest ledger item which is the actual rights of way which the cities give them you know if you wanted to like start your own ISP and you wanted to negotiate street by street block by block house by house for the right to put up poles to you know just run wires into the ground to do all those things you would spend trillions of dollars and you run into money long before you finish because the people with the last bit that you needed to cross-connect would understand that their optimal rent for their land was your total expected profit minus a dollar and so you know that this is a common problem economists understand it really well and when Disney bought all that land in central Florida for Disney World they kept it a secret they had all these shadow companies these front companies because they knew that if if word got out that the prices will go up and up and you know we get the public we give the carriers all of this subsidy you know the only one company will get the cable franchise for your city and we ask them in return to give us some public value and I think that's a fair deal you know if they don't want to offer public network that offers the public what the public wants that when you click on a link you get the page then they can run their own network without the public subsidy they can pay those rents for all that sidewalk but until then I think if you if you take the public subsidy you should offer the public's network right well this is the thing where that I think people should be looking at very carefully over the next year because one of the things I think that's going to be happening is that state legislators are going to be looking hard and local you know representatives are going to be looking hard at how they treat carriers in within their jurisdictions and that also me as they look hard at that I look at seeing what they can do to protect their citizens you're going to see pushback yeah and it's the kind of thing that gets complicated and people don't always follow it so it's going to be the kind of thing we want to make sure we stay alert to so if state legislators are actually trying to do some good in ways that seem maybe just a little bit wonky it's still going to be worth paying attention because there's just going to be so much money against them and the only way to fight that we saw this with the fight for broadband privacy here in California where we were trying to sort of put in place good consumer protection privacy protections data privacy protections and you know when you've got a ton of money on the other side the only way you fight it is overwhelming public support yeah I remember that with SOPA you know eight million phone calls to Congress in 72 hours it turns out when you melt their switchboard they pay attention yeah yeah and they say all politics are local so how do you know if your ISP is missing with your neutral network it's actually pretty hard I think for ordinary people the good news is there are lots and lots of researchers who are pretty interested in this issue and so you know are trying to monitor it as best they can but it isn't easy to know for sure what's happening with your local ISP which is why it's so important to actually have rules in advance as opposed to trying to have enforcement leader because someone managed to actually detect when they're messing around I know that we have colleagues in DC that the M labs people who've done some pretty good work on that kind of measurement but this is this has been a real problem is wiring up the internet for like telemetry to figure out when bad stuff's going on our colleague or friend Julia Angwin from Publica did this amazing thing where she got her readers to download stuff that told her which ads they were seeing on Facebook that's pretty strong this amazing journalism just today this thing about how companies are discriminating against older people when they when they send a job ads and Tim Wu did the same thing in New York where he when he was with the State Attorney General he gave everyone an open-source tool to measure the speed of their network so that he could see whether or not Time Warner's claims were being honored you know they're advertising claims were being honored but it's really hard and obviously like it's much easier just to make the companies behave themselves than it is to get millions of people to sit around the edge of the network and try and pounce on them when they do wrong well and that's another thing I'm glad you reminded me of so one of the things that the FCC is also trying to do is actually make it really hard for state attorneys general to bring those kinds of claims so the FCC is kind of an essence thing if we don't regulate no one can we're not going to regulate and no one else can either yeah I think that's going to be challenged but that is pretty scary because I think state attorneys general are going to say no actually we think it's our job to protect our citizens and we think we can do that are there ISPs that we can look to that will help us support that neutrality well yeah so there's a couple things so there's you know Sonic is one that I know off the top of my head is good monkey brains is good yeah but there's also a group of ISPs that submitted comments for the record that they all signed on to that said you know we like the net neutrality rules and we want to keep them so you know those are the ISPs I would probably you know look to but let's face it the reality is you live where you live you know right yeah you're not going to move based on an ISP I mean you might but most people aren't going to do that and I think that's not an option for them yeah yeah it's an interesting point I wonder if people will someday advertise in the same way that like in London property that's near a tube station is worth a lot more because being able to get somewhere has some tangible value or being near a good school I wonder if being near a good fiber loop will eventually be a thing that realtors start to look at I think that's actually exactly why cities are getting interested in this because they want to be able to say like we're a connected city we're connecting as many things but you know where city come here yeah that's here because we're actually going to provide real infrastructure for you to build your business I think that's been the South Korea and soft diplomacy pitch for 15 years South Korea land of gigabit you know the land of imminent nuclear threat and gigabit symmetrical broadband you know I think a lot of people in our circles weigh the two of those and go imminent nuclear threat gigabit symmetrical broadband actually is like it's a disgrace I mean this is the one thing that's kind of falling behind it it's not exactly a problem it's just a problem which is that our broadband investment has been pathetic but it's not because these companies don't have the ability to do it spending their money doing different things but our speed is so far behind much of the world it's embarrassing yeah and just to remind you again we're here at the electronic frontier foundation with Corinne McCherry the legal director of EFF I'm Corey Doctro I'm a special consultancy FF we're talking about net neutrality in last week's order here so you talked a bit about state ag's and state state houses taking action on this and it's an exciting idea for me because local politics sometimes are easier to organize than than national politics I worry a little that the only state net neutrality laws we've had so far have been ones that ban net neutrality and ban cities from building our own networks and I is there a way that we can think of states crafting a law that protects net neutrality but doesn't establish the principle that in the future an FCC that made a pro net neutrality rule couldn't be sordid by a state house that was captured and that said we're gonna ignore it I think that that we're gonna have a world in which a state can just ignore what the FCC does there's certain things that are sort of you know going to be federal policy and have to be followed by all of the states you know but this isn't unique to the net neutrality problem this is sure in general we sort of I think what you know what's what can a state do what can a federal government do a good thing that a state can do very very traditionally estates can protect consumers a lot of consumer protection laws or state law it's a traditional you know thing that we know states are allowed to do so so I think a lot of those same principles are gonna apply here I do think though that you're quite right that there's 20 states that have basically anti neutrality laws in the sense that the state has decided that we're gonna decide at the state level what communities can do and there's different ways in which they sort of try to stand in the way of community broadband but I think that's going to change and the reason I think it's going to change is because those laws were passed without anyone paying attention right because they were passed because you know if you ask these basically talk to a legislator and said could you do this right and and it was the kind of thing which might have seemed a little bit arcane and maybe kind of wonky and you know okay fine we'll just put this through no one was paying attention that's not going to be true anymore everybody's awake and watching yeah you know it's there's this idea that like maybe if things get worse they'll get better and we'll like this is the thing that always drives me nuts people like well at finally things are so bad that people can't ignore them anymore and you know and the decade-plus of working with the FF I've really taken on board the idea that it's much better not to let people come to harm than to celebrate the harm but I do think that like there's a difference between celebrating things getting worse or cynically sitting there and saying let them get worse so people wake up and saying well now that they're worse let's not squander the blood and treasure here that we've that we've lost in this fight let's at least salvage from that the public awareness the peak indifference that we hit so that and use it to fight well I think that's right but I also think of it's just slightly differently from that and you know in my ten years working at EF I have grown much less cynical than when I started about you know the about the grassroots or the net roots however when I want to think about it I have seen people mobilize to do extraordinary things and so you know even though obviously with what the FCC did last week is a setback you know public awareness of net neutrality and why it matters is completely different right then it was ten years ago we've got a situation where 83% of Americans if you ask them do they support net neutrality they say yes well five years ago ten years ago if you would ask people the first thing is like I don't even know what you're talking about yeah you couldn't even have the poll yeah no like you can you can finish the words net neutrality without them nodding off right yeah you know I think that the world has genuinely changed yeah and and people are really and also we have tools that we didn't have before to get people mobilized and activated you know frankly it's just a lot harder to do things than the dead of night than it used to be yeah that's that is good news so you're the median EFF supporter out there watching this live stream what is the next thing you should do so the next thing you should do is visit our action center and and take action we're going to be and and but keep watching because we're going to be mobilized mobile rolling out a series of actions for people to take you can also go to the battle for the net calm and take action there you know get ready because particularly the first few months of the year is when we're really going to get me to get no millions of people activated speaking out and pressure in Congress because to do the first thing that I talked about which is to take advantage of the Congressional Review Act to repeal this whole thing because that's the that would really be the best and cleanest path forward and it's a it's I think we can really do this because so many people support net neutrality and so many people are unhappy about this what we've heard from people from staffers in Congress is they were getting more calls about net neutrality than they were a back tax reform Wow so this is an important issue and it's an important pressure point so we need to let Congress know we care about this the FCC made a mistake and you need to fix it yeah that's action dot EFF dot org for people want to find it who want to find EFF's actions there and then one of the questions we had if you're if you're a non-median EFF supporter but but someone that we also have a lot of in our constituency something about doing a startup what's your lesson from the fact that now the incumbents have to can pay a fee to keep you out of the fast lane what can you do I'm not sure I have as much happy news for for the startups I think you know it's frankly you're gonna have to start building it into your business plan and you know that's really unfortunate I don't like it I might you know maybe accelerate things before they put all the bad projects in place but you know you're gonna have to start building it into your business plan that you need to figure out what what are the extra fees I'm gonna have to pay that's a tough hard lesson yeah well so I you've been listening to EFF's live stream this is the Electronic Frontier Foundation in the Tenderloin in San Francisco this is Corinne McSherry our legal director I'm Corey Doctro a special consultant we've been talking about net neutrality thank you for everyone who tuned in oh is there one last question coming in there is what can non-US EFF supporters do that is a really excellent question what should you do if you don't live in America right oh so one thing that I'm pretty sure our development director would have wanted me to say is that one thing you can do is support EFF and support our work and so if you go to EFF.org there's lots of women can very easy for you to contribute to our work and we really appreciate it whether it's a small amount or a big amount whatever people can do it feels really good also when we can grow our membership to know that we have so much support so that's one thing that you can do another thing that frankly I would be doing is any wherever you are you likely there's some version of the net neutrality fight in your country as well so you need to get engaged in it engaged with it as best you can and you know you can call Congress as well they don't I'm sorry to tell you Congress cares a little bit more about their own constituents than people internationally but you know but again I think what I really come back to is you need to take you need to work on this fight at home where you are because what happens in the United States can be exported so you need to prevent that from happening yeah I mean back to back to supporting EFF financially you know Denise Cooper is a wonderful open source sort of doyen and one day she sat down and she said you know I every month add up all my bills and realize that I'm giving hundreds of dollars every month to companies that want to destroy the the future I want to live into phone companies that are working to undermine the net neutrality I care about to hardware companies that are adding DRM to their products to entertainment companies that are fighting to use copyright as a club to shut down free expression and you know I'm not gonna like go live in a cave and not have internet access and not use hardware and not consume popular entertainment and we can't have a popular movement if we tell people you you can't be in it if you don't like popular entertainment we won't be popular so what she does instead is she adds up the money she spends every month on subsidizing the destruction of the future she wants to live in and she makes a donation in that amount every month to organizations like EFF and the other organizations we work with and it's a thing that I took on board too it's not like the only thing I do obviously but I make a big donation to EFF every year myself and it's because I've I've been associated with this organization for so long I've never seen anyone spend money smarter than EFF and I and I know exactly how far those dollars that I put in go and so I think it's a it's a good investment in a better future well thank you yeah thank you and thank you for all the supporters that are out there on Facebook we really appreciate it thanks