 everybody who has joined us today for the next in our series of 42 courses speaker series. We're so glad that you've taken the time in your day to join us. For me, it's 11 coffee. For some of you, it will be later in the evening. And for our guest, Josie today, chairman of BBDO India. He's not actually in India. He tells me he's in Singapore. So do please put in the chat where you're joining us from, what time of day it is, what the weather's like. We always love to see who's joining us. And we are honored today to be joined by Josie Paul, chairman of BBDO India, and who is also in our creative thinking course in 42 courses. Josie, you're very welcome. Thank you so much. It's a pleasure to have you. And Josie, for people who have joined us, who aren't familiar with you, with your work, with your professional experience, maybe just give everybody a little bit of a rundown, a little mini bio about yourself. Well, yeah, I mean, where do I begin? Actually, I'm sort of as old as the mountains. That's what we like, Josie. So I suppose, I mean, I started years ago and I really started with Ogilvy. And then, you know, that's when I threatened as a trainee to jump out of the window in case because a client wouldn't buy my work and it worked. The client did buy my work. That was Ogilvy where I started. Hi, everyone. Thank you for joining. I hope this can be a meaningful session. I'll try my best. But your questions will make a big difference. Just to give a background, I've been in the business for a long time. I started at Ogilvy. And then, you know, I went on to have a really wonderful time and lit us and then left that to start an agency called David in for Ogilvy. It was the first David office in the world. And we started in Mumbai. And then it went to quite a few cities, countries, and after which I set up BBDO in India. So I set up two agencies. And it's been a fabulous journey. We're most known. So in BBDO, we're most known for our work for Ariel, which is called Share the Load. But there's a lot more that we've done. And maybe some of us know about it and I can talk about it as we go along. But yeah, I really started my journey because of a tremor. I was born during an earthquake. So I have a natural tremor. People think I'm on drugs, but I'm not. It's just how I got my first job. You know, I got my first job because I, the creative director from Ogilvy who shook my hands said, you don't have to be nervous of me because he felt the tremor. And I said, no, it's not nervousness. It is creative vibrance. And just because of that stupid statement, he gave me the job with no portfolio. And he taught me the power of faith and the value of guts because with nothing, he made me something. So I carry these things with me because they affected my life. So I value those beautiful people who helped me. Yeah, so that's what it is. Four agencies, lots of interesting people, beautiful people, and everyone. Yeah, I mean, I've had strong relationships with clients and my partners. And yeah, that's what it is. I don't know what more to say. It's really about my work that I'd rather talk about. I love that phrase you use there, Josie, creative vibrance. I mean, that is just superb. And you talk about early on there, people having faith in you. And I can recall from one of the stories you tell, we're moving sort of on to talking about creativity. But you speak about early on, somebody giving you the license to fail. Yeah. And the importance of that made. Yeah, yeah. So I must give you a bit of history. I was looking for a man called Kersi Kartrak. And I used to, I majored in physics at a very well known Jesuit college called St. Xavier's College. It's like in the top three colleges of India. And, but I made the mistake during my physics studies to go to an art gallery. But over there, instead of paintings, there were and sculptures, there were advertising. There was an ad festival. There was an exhibition of advertising. So I'd gone on the wrong day, but it actually ended up being the right day because I saw stuff that I'd never seen before. I was not in any way connected with advertising at nobody in the family doing that. And then I began to see the work and I saw one man winning a lot of awards and his writing was absolutely mind blowing. And I said that I'm going to work for this guy someday. So when I finished my graduation, I started looking for Kersi, but I couldn't find him. Some of the people told me that he had gone to the mountains. So I even went to the Himalayas trekking hoping that I could find him, but I couldn't find him. But through various sort of actions and discussions and connections, I managed to meet the chief of Ogilvy who gave me the job because of my creative vibrance. So, but I was still looking for Kersi. And then what happened was in Ogilvy, I think I got a call from five years later from a voice that sounded like God. And it was Kersi Kathrak. He had returned from the mountains and he was setting up or resetting up Lintas, low Lintas in India. And he called me and he said, I heard you're looking for me. Isn't that amazing that five years later a man comes saying, Hey, this was 1989. In 1989, I got a call from Kersi saying, Hello, is that Josie Paul? I heard you've been looking for me. And then he just made me the creative director. I mean with again, you know, this thing about faith, when I don't think I deserved it, I was not worthy of it. But he thought of me more than I thought of myself. And he said, Josie, I know I've given you a triple jump in terms of who you are and what your designation is. So I can't give you a lot of money, but I can give you something that money can't buy. And I, and he said, I give you the freedom to fail. And I'd never heard that freedom to fail. Where did that come from? My parents are beautiful people, but they never told me that my teachers never said that my friends never said that my colleagues never said that. And then here was this man that I was looking for all my life virtually. And then, you know, he gives and that for me changed my life. It changed my creative. It gave me creative freedom. And it allowed me to do things I would never have done before because now I had nothing left to lose. No, that's, that's an, that's an amazing story and very inspiring in terms of ways in which we can mentor people. So I hope I hope a lot of people will take that away from them. And I liked that you mentioned that your first exposure to advertising was going to this gallery, because that again makes me think of another phrase you used. You talk about trying to collide with different worlds. And that certainly was bringing yourself into a new place and exposing yourself. And we just can't know when we're talking about creativity. We just can't know when we're going to collide with something to inspire us. So would you like to maybe talk a little bit about that? Yeah, that's such a beautiful, you know, question and the things you say, especially the word collision. I think accidents allow us to sort of relook at ourselves. And I tend to, I want to surrender as a human being to the possibilities. When we work too logically, we end up in the same place. So sometimes I just hope there are accidents. I just hope that I meet somebody who's not like me or I hear something that's not what I expected. And this whole joy of serendipity, this whole joy of throwing two unconnected things and then finding the connection is something that I've always sought. I majored in physics and I believe in Heisenberg's principle of uncertainty. And I find in that a certain beauty because when you are put in an uncertain situation, you always find something new versus when you're putting, put yourself in a certain situation, in a very certain situation where you feel you're in control. That's all you are, you're in control and nothing else happens. Control doesn't give you anything new. There's no discovery. So I seek the lack of control so that I can find something new. Collision is a way of doing that, which is you just take two unconnected things or two unconnected people or two unconnected events or throw yourself at something new that is feeling not right and something beautiful happens always. That's such a lovely example actually, Josie, because we're talking about creativity and so we naturally think of the arts, but you're bringing the sciences in there, you're bringing in physics and so the whole concept of thinking as wide as we can. Yeah, exactly. So which is why when I look at my own creative sort of experiences, it was different when I was in Ogilvy and very different when I was in Lowlyntas and superbly different when I set up David and completely different when I set up BBTO. They're all four, actually four different lifetimes for me because I was not this guy before and I was not the guy before that so it's a form of rebirth. I feel like I was reborn three four times. That's a very Indian analogy if you don't mind me saying Josie. So when we're talking about creativity, another thing that you said is extremely important is to be empathetic and again you're great. I don't know if you realize that you do this so much but you're great at sort of pulling out these super quotes and in the course you use a beautiful Cahill Gibran quote to say, I don't know if you actually worded it like this, but the quote is, may there be such oneness between us that when one weeps the other tastes salt. I mean that is just so beautiful and as you say empathy in terms of in the world of creativity is so important isn't it? Yeah I think you know we spoke about connecting or collision which is connecting to unconnected things and then something beautiful happens the third thing and that third thing is new and fresh and no one looked at the world that way and you say, hey that's beautiful man how did you make that happen? That's one way of looking at creativity which is about connections or about new connections but the other thing about creativity in my opinion and it's only my opinion is sensitivity. It's about sensitivity in a world where I think not enough people are listening and that's probably because our lives are being curated that media is curating us social media is curating us we are curating ourselves to look good and in all that curation and manipulation of self we tend to then not allow the real aspects of our lives to be exchanged and listening it allows us that so for me empathy is about deep listening and deep listening is about confessions that you can go to a place where people are willing to confess and when people confess it really give you the universal truth because their confessions are coming from a very deep place and that deep place is where everybody exists you know it's not one person's confession a true confession is everyone's confession and from that universal place beautiful ideas are born because from that empathetic deep confessional space you can create stuff is what I feel and you can create more pure stuff that is meaningful and that's how some of the work we do goes to that depth so for me sensitivity creativity is sensitivity in a world where no one is listening so many times you see these sort of article statements how to be creative it's such an enormous enormous task to ask about but already you've given us this this structure the the license to fail the collision with the new and being empathetic are there any other sort of rules or suggestions that you you put to your team when you're trying to struggle you know with this very very big question of of how to be creative oh yeah that's uh I mean I I don't know if I have immediate answers but I do know that often we are faced with situations where you're feeling frustrated or you're feeling anger or you're feeling some sort of roadblock and and and I always say that that is your moment of creative like if you can stop seeing our lives as work and life and see ourselves as leading a creative life then every every issue is an opportunity to be creative and I just have a lot of stupid examples of that nature you know where you can it's not about just the work that you do it's also about the life you lead and and and how every opportunity offers that I mean just a simple stupid answer I'll just tell you how I once sold a radio spot to Benetton the client in India is that because the client before that had approved the radio spot but after she approved a new client came in and you know that the new person it's just that feeling you know they're not going to approve it you're just afraid that they're not going to approve it you're like you know you're just scared that you're paranoid so this is what I did when I went to Delhi with the work that I did for the radio spot I went and created the radio spot at our own expense okay because it was not yet approved for production it was only approved in concept by the earlier marketing director but the new one had not yet seen it not even seen what it sounds like I mean what what the script is but I went and did something so alarming that people may not believe it which is that I went she doesn't know who I am she you know people didn't know that this is this guy so I went into the room first when she was sitting in the conference room like a waiter I put flour on my face and looked like a guy who was slightly waiter-ish and and and went and served a tea with a tremor which was natural to me and with a stammer that was one of you know submission and and she was like okay thank you but please leave the room and so I left the room and she thought I was a waiter and then a few minutes later I sort of washed myself put on a jacket took a two in one at that time and I jumped I jumped into the room with tremendous energy and I said hi I'm Josie Paul I'm from Mumbai I've come with a piece of work for you I'm sure you'll like it and I put on the cassette and played it for her and she's looking at me like as something happened here in this room didn't this guy before look familiar the guy who served tea and now he's the CEO of a company and then I played this the CD I mean the the cassette and she was yes this is really good okay okay let's let's do it let's do it she was so off-center I wanted her to be off-center I'm sorry I'm saying these things now and maybe it's not the right thing and it's politically not the correct thing but I had to disturb the status quo to create an environment that was conducive to yes you know and for me that is a creative life that it's you got to be embarrassed you got to be rejected you got to look like an ass a fool so that your work wins it's because I whenever you you have this this really tough thing where you have a wonderful idea and but it's all in your head you can try and put it in a storyboard and and make it look nice but until it's real it's so hard often for someone else to understand the vision that you have so I think it's so brave that you actually made it it's and it and I I think I don't know whether you find this with your teams I would imagine it's getting a little bit easier a little bit cheaper and quicker to be able to make things in today's world with all the tools I must be fascinating but what an amazing story I think that's genius and and yeah even the way I said it was really quick but was even more dramatic than this but let it be so so it's about it's about leading a creative life it then starts moving into your work as well and and and going back to the whole issue of listening recently I did a session at one of the colleges and there was a two-hour session at the end I asked for any questions and one of the girls said so I have a question for you do you think it's okay for me to have chicken so I am saying to myself we had we did not discuss this it had nothing to do with advertising and the beautiful thing was in the class nobody laughed I realized this was important for her it was an important question but no one was listening to her and so she had to ask me imagine she had to ask me this personal question because probably no one was listening to her and she said I love chicken but I don't know about the ethics and I said the very fact that you're questioning it means you already have the answer so who am I to give you that answer but the truth is that she had a question that was nothing to do with advertising and yet that was important to her and that tells me that we need greater listening and going back to the earlier point about creativity whether it's collision or whether it's listening or any other form of approach to creativity or just being creative in your life in the things we do it's so much more fun it reduces the tension it it it lets it fights cholesterol man it's it's oxygen so I don't know I maybe I'm not giving enough direction but I'm just sharing my view it's perfect um I had one other thing I I didn't um I didn't want to interrupt but earlier but the the uh you were talking about you you had very different experiences and all the different agencies and and from you know I think we've talked a lot and I I'm I'm sort of an ex Ogilvy person so I know that family and that that environment very well and obviously they change slightly all over the world and the different offices is there uh are there some um sort of key outtakes or some some key things that you noticed you know be fascinated to know what you think the difference is philosophically and in that family vibe in Ogilvy between Ogilvy and BBTO and and some of the other and you know I think David is although sort of Ogilvy I still think that was a very very different different thing um would you be able to share perhaps yeah what the what the philosophies were what you think they might be between uh between those uh uh Chris it's difficult to say yeah because I mean like when when we set up um when we set up Ogilvy uh when we set up David it was very different from Ogilvy because I'd gone to uh the Ogilvy board that was Ranjan Kapoor and said why don't we call the new agency that you want to set up uh David because Ogilvy may have chosen the wrong end of his name uh David is an ideology it it is about challenge and uh in 2000 India was coming into its own uh also national players were faced with multinational players coming into the country so I said let me stand for the for the Davids and the national players and Ogilvy can stand for the multinationals so allow me to set up that and and that's how it happened so it's the starting point of David was based on challenge Ogilvy was as always been a fabulous reservoir of creative talent and good thinking and and Lita's very different from that in the sense that Lita's in Lita's there was a certain amount of flamboyance there was a certain amount of bigger than life you know creativity it was it was also led by a gentleman who was himself one of the biggest theater people in the country who was highly charismatic and superbly creative so these were different environments in their own way all of them one was challenge one was a certain balance Ogilvy and one was a certain flamboyant and energy like Salvador Dali you know so they all were great yeah and and and and BBD of course comes with its own incredible legend of being the most creative agency when we were in Ogilvy and David David everyone would talk about BBD and when I was asked to set up BBD I was really scared and I said to myself I don't think I can set up BBD in India but I can set up India in BBD and so the moment I realized that I realized I have to provide a new way of looking at it like what is India and how can we represent India for BBD and that's how we began to do work that we've done so far and it's incredible work so yeah Bravo congrats um it's I can't wait to see the next piece of work that's that's going to win all the can lions and and change people's attitudes and minds around the world so it's incredible thank you Chris I think there have been some questions right I think I saw a couple there are yes thanks so much for that Chris and Josie there has been a question from Serena and Serena if you've got camera width or would like to join us to put your question to Josie. Hi Josie this is Serena and I was in Lintas briefly and I recognize Alec I think from your your description but I'm a qualitative researcher and I wanted to get your point of view on how research can help development of breakthrough creative because um well as being on the other side of the fence if you like I thought I'd like to hear your point of view on that yeah I mean yeah thank you thank you for that question and for me research is everything but I probably do it my own way of course I I I sort of listen to all the stuff that good people like you get from qualitative research but then I also do my own which is what I call confessions I I seek I seek deeper meaning and deeper truth and I do that with very long interviews that tend to have reach a breaking point I call it creative therapy it's where you create an environment that allows people to slowly sort of remove the facades and feel comfortable getting into their deepest selves I'll give you an example we were talking about ebay and ebay came to us asking us for a purpose and we said why would ebay need a need purpose they they are they are a successful brand of e-commerce and but I said let me put my criticism aside and let's bring people together into a room don't spend too much time and we spoke spoke about why do we buy things and and as we spoke it went for half an hour one hour one and half hour and then suddenly as we were talking you know and and the thing is you as a person you got to sort of start sharing your own thing you in in these creative therapy sessions you can't be there can't be a moderator everyone's equal the moderator tends to become a slightly higher in in terms of the position so we we need so we need equality if there's got to be true sharing and so everyone's you as a person who's trying to moderate has to be equal so you've got to send create your own vulnerability and in the process one of the girls did say that I buy things because when I was born my grandmother was disappointed she wanted a boy and I was born a girl and so I buy things because I want to show her that I'm better than any boy now you can't you won't get that in regular research it's not that we were out to manipulate anybody it was just one of those sharing sessions and then that broke people down everyone began to cry and then the next thing you know is everyone is now telling you stuff that you've never heard in your life why they buy things and that that was just one of the most intense sessions and I said stop and let's stop and they said no don't stop we have things to say and and that resulted in an idea which was called things don't judge that eBay has 100 million things that don't judge the skipping rope doesn't judge if you're 72 years old or the dia does not judge if you're Hindu Muslim or Christian or a ring does not judge if you're gay or straight or whatever so we have 100 million things that don't judge and we had other such ideas but what I'm trying to say is that qualitative research is fabulous there's a lot of good stuff happening other new ways to get deeper is all I'm saying and it can be any form of experiment sure I don't know that's really interesting and very useful and a lovely story thank you Josie thanks thank you thank you Serena super question and what an absolutely lovely response Josie and I I read I have a market research background and I can remember first learning about behavioral science I felt it really undermined all of my previous beliefs about market research and the value of it and I love the way you've used the sort of the concept of just the basic focus group but then making it so much more so much deeper than just the conversation yeah because even when we work on share the load it's been seven years each year you're trying to sort of unpeel a new truth or a new hidden sort of vibe that doesn't has not been you know spoken about and and you say hey seven years now how do I find the next thing and we're working on something right now and it's amazing how much more is there and now we've got three incredible confessions which are just like you don't know now which way to go because you think it's all over but it's not it's never over there's so much lying in human beings and you know just your ability to listen to that level allows some some possibility so that's one aspect of this I mean I've also done crazy things Serena to to in research terms I once won a pitch because I stood up at the aircraft and I had 30 pieces of work which I wasn't sure about and I asked the entire aircraft to vote for the best work and that was in 2004 and it was we won the LG pitch because of that research on in the sky I have to say that's an unusual unusual approach it's desperation I know you can't you can't institutionalize these things these are just no mad moments mad moments yeah but they work so so that's fantastic thank you you yeah you've given us some superb examples here today Josie and touching there on the example you were giving about about the group about the the group of people revealing these things about themselves earlier on we were talking about the importance of recognizing cultural differences and of course you're coming in your own direction we all bring our own biases to these things so do you like to maybe talk about the importance of that in your work yeah I mean so recently we did we did this campaign called standby tough moms right I mean it was for a brand called all out and it's quite a powerful piece of content that we created and then built on it and and and these things come from sometimes it just comes from having felt the world so you all of us can be an antenna you know sometimes you may not get the you've got to be able to sense it as well and I remember this session we were having in Chicago for for all out and and and I said that the mothers are being glorified in advertising you know that there's a lot of poetry about the beauty of motherhood and it it is true but 90% of the work of a mother is a bit ugly it's tough it's crazy it's not stuff that people speak about and we say what what if we were to talk about that part you know what if we were to sort of say that's also cool you know that's what it is and and and that's how was born the idea of it's good to be tough and and and in society we see that when moms are tough a lot of people gang up on her she's doing it for the kid right but people gang up on her and we said come on we could stand for that it's a cultural social sort of thing and and that's what we did we created this campaign called stand by tough mom which is very very powerful and every time you see it you break down because it's so true and yet fabulous at least I'm saying it about my own work sorry about that but there's another piece of work we did which was called touch the pickle and that again was based on giving women a voice to speak about period taboos and question and challenge it and so we did it with with whisper and was called whisper touch the pickle and was a platform so it was not because there are a lot of taboos related to menstruation and and we felt that maybe it's time to talk about it in a brand like BNG and a product like whisper pick that up and that was something that sort of created quite a stir created a following of positive activism which is I think it's not just about the brand it's like volunteers came forward ambassadors came forward handraisers came forward it truly became a movement and led to some element of change or awareness so yeah that that that was very cultural in nature and and and it's not yeah and it's a great example jose yeah thank you and and and the thing is it happened because we went for a brief and it wasn't a brief anymore because I provoked the client it was saying why are you showing blood as blue and not red I don't understand it and and there were six women in that briefing a brief session and and they got very emotional about it and they began to they they left the brief that they had written and and got into an emotional discussion which led to them telling me about do you know what we guys go through suddenly they were not a client they were they were people who were sharing their own personal experiences and that's what I call there's a difference between a brief and a briefing a brief is transactional somebody's already prepared it and it's going to hand it over to you but a briefing is where you break the brief and bring the human humanity out of it and then you discuss that and that turned into an intense briefing session and then when we heard I didn't know about these taboos I mean I have three sisters but I was ignorant it was you know hidden and then here I am finding it you know late in life and I go back to them after one week saying what if we were to do a campaign which is not a television spot which is not all the things we've been doing on Whisper but if you were to create a platform called touch the pickle and and they and they bought it because it was their idea and they never realized it was their own idea I just gave it back to them that's why I say empathy I mean creativity is a return gift of empathy you know it it you were never trying to be creative it's just what happens and people say that's so creative but it wasn't creative it was just you know listening and putting the point across so yeah that's how it happened it was never my idea and and asking questions I mean what I really like about that story of that particular campaign Josie is there were women in the group and yet it was a man who asked the difficult question and I've heard similar stories to this where obviously diversity is extremely important but actually it was an example from somebody recently and it was something to do with India and they were saying that the group of people culturally representing India there they didn't know to ask the awkward question and it was actually somebody from the outside who saw sort of and that was the case in your example that it was somebody from outside the group who who asked the awkward question yeah and and the thing is people say hey how do you how do you sell such ideas and I tell them I don't sell anymore because I've just returned what they've already given me so it's not selling it's they're buying they're not we're not I'm not selling it's not me pushing something it's somebody inviting something because of the way the process is like when I threaten to jump out of the window in my first job because of my idea I was threatening I was trying to sell I was pushing the cause by being dramatic or when I did it with in the case of Benetton but now I find there's another way where you don't have to push you just have to feed what is already there it's been so great speaking with you Josie we're coming towards the end of our session but just before we wrap up here I'd love to know if there are any other particular you've spoken about those two particular campaigns are there any other particular campaigns that you especially admire or they can be ones you did yourself or you know from other agencies and for what reason you particularly admire them there's just too many great campaigns around the world absolutely fantastic but in 2016 when I saw REI do opt outside you know when they shut their all their stores on on on black friday and I saw that and I said this is it man if if brands can have that ability to stand by and create strong action where it looks like you could lose for what you believe in then you've really taken the brand connection to a different level and that relationship can be very very precious because in the long run that will result in you know not just sales but other equities that will help the brand in good times and bad so yeah that was that's a great example another one of sort of standing out standing outside not just not just following the pack and I suppose that's always the difficult thing to do isn't it to try to break from the existing thought but it's ask again it's asking questions asking awkward questions and yeah yeah I mean I think when these guys did I spent it on myself uh which was the brand Harvey Nichols yeah I thought that was such a killer uh understanding of human behavior right and and to just be so contrarian in a festival uh celebratory time when everyone's talking about gifting and gifting and other people and everyone else you touch something that is so real and deep about yourself uh for me uh that that was another campaign that blew my mind because I like when people are a bit contrarian I like when people come from uh somewhere else and surprise you it's the collision right that I spoke about it's uh you know it's just it blows your mind it's it's it's out of your zone and so that's uh that's the only way to grow and just a quick question I was just intrigued is is is there anyone or anywhere or anything that you that you look at or look to regularly to to try and inspire you to sort of you know just inspire you and your thinking and your and your way that you approach life in the way that you approach creativity in your job um yeah that's that's a great great question you know what I look at music yeah because I for me music is the only truth music and rain the rain and the music is the only truth a lot of that in Singapore right yeah right it's pretty regular yeah but in I'm from Mumbai so I get three and a half months of amazing rain and I sit out in the rain in my terrace and drink rum and rain water it's like God is my bartender uh but one of the other things uh I forgot I got carried away by the rain music music is something that is so true and pure and I find in that a lot of energy especially music that has lyrics that impact you and then one of the things I do is I look at the comments section and in the comments people confess they I don't think anyone knows why they say those things they say things that they should would probably even not tell their friends but the music gives them that license to say something that is within them and when I read those comments and listen to the music uh things happen to me so that's one one way I sort of fill my senses if I may say that thanks Chris great question and thanks Chessie thanks so much I don't know if I made sense but yeah between songs and the rain it makes a lot of sense I noticed that as well I think you're right it's that some things put you in a certain space where you just feel happy to be open I think you have a a knack of doing that yourself with others um yeah there's I meet lots of people in my life I'm very very lucky to and you know I that you definitely have a certain aura about you Jay-Z uh like it's it's a very good one it's amazing I feel I I could say anything to you and uh say yeah thank you for being you and thank you for sharing your your just yourself so so openly um with so many it's really kind of you and and an amazing inspiration um I think so yeah thanks really really appreciate it thank you thanks Chris and thank you everyone yeah thank you thank you Josie for joining us today it's been a very very inspiring session and I feel you've been very revealing yourself uh and so I hope that everybody has enjoyed uh picking the inner inner thoughts and brain of Josie Paul today chairman of BBDO and we're absolutely honored that you spent the time with us and uh we thank you and thank everybody who joined us for this call and we hope that you will join us again