 Well, I'm very pleased to have with me another member of Civil Society here at WISIS 2015. He is Raymond Morel. He is a member of the International Federation for Information Processing. Mr Morel. Hello. Hello. Now, you've been involved in two very interesting thematic workshops this week. It's one of the features of WISIS. The first one involved a building trust in technology and information. How do we go about that? What are the issues there? I mean, the first workshop called IP3 or IT professionalism. You have already certainly linked with another interview with Brenda Hensley. Of course, yes, with respect to her. And you understand that to be credible, information should be one, recognized, secondly, have a code of conduct or code of ethics. Third, they need to have some push to keep their excellence level through capacity building, facility, lifelong learning, and so on. Okay. So, professionalism is important. Yeah. But this code of ethics, what would be the features of that? Have we come to any kind of agreement about what that code of ethics should be? It's quite interesting, what you say, because I try already in other cycles because I am a Swiss member of the Academy of Engineering Science in Switzerland to put people to speak about ethics and technology together. And I can assure you that if you have people speaking English, French, and German in the same room and you speak about moral and ethics, code of conduct, code of deontology, governance, and so on, all the words used have not the same meaning in each language. So it's a very big challenge to have something understandable and useful. You can sign the code and so on. And as an example, I think one of the best examples of code of conduct, I know it's a code of conduct for the Australian Computer Society. It's only six items, very simple to understand. Of course, if you like to go further, you have some development, but not a low or big juridic text or I don't know one. Okay. So how will, assuming that you do eventually arrive at a satisfactory model for your code of conduct and your other elements that you mentioned, professionalism and so forth, how will that contribute, do you think, to that sense of building trust? You know that actually if you take some figure from your group or something like that, you have till 80% of software development, ICT project, which are failing with a delay not satisfied and so on. And it's huge money out of the play. But also the trust and confidence because you can't separate or use only one word. In German you have Vertrauen, in French you have confidence, but in English you have two words, one for the head and the other for the feeling, trust and confidence. And to increase that, I think that first, that informatician people do a good job, produce good products. Okay. So that figure was what you say 80% of projects are not coming in on time or on budget or doing what they say. So. Do you like another example? Please. In Switzerland, it is well known, but nobody reacts. I think the first 13 years of this new century and only for federal offices, not the contours, the communities or the private sector, 1 billion of Swiss francs for software development was put in the waste baskets. Is it satisfied? Yes. No, but I take your point. We were talking about, I guess, the people who commissioned these projects and asked for work to be done. I'm thinking more in terms of general trust in a post-Snowden society, post-Snowden revelation society. How do we build general trust with the public in what they expect from their ICTs? There was a nice humanist called Albert Jacquard, he died four years ago I think. He, I quote him, efficiency is an under-product of lucidity, okay? I think you can copy that mechanism that security is an under-product of transparency and education. Well, Mr. Murrell, unfortunately, I think we'll have to leave it there. I think you very much for your time today. Yeah, thank you.