 All right. Good morning, David. How are you doing today? Great. Thanks. How are you? Not bad. I'm super excited to talk to you about your new book, The Weight of Air. So for the listeners out there who don't know you yet, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and what inspired the book? Sure. So I started using Hero when I was 16. I spent the next 16 years trying to stop. Other than a brief stint in rehab halfway houses, medical detox, and so forth, I led my family or everyone in my life to believe that I got sober at 19, and I was happy and never looked back, even though I continued to struggle. Depression was my gateway. At 16, I was pretty much ready to kill myself and heroin saved my life. So over the years, as nobody knew about this, and the overdose crisis started to occupy more news headlines, and I was seeing just so much misinformation and people were dying, and I felt like I just, I had to say something. My silence seemed like it was working against all the changes that I wanted to see in the world. I knew that I wasn't the exception. And so after, you know, my family, everyone believed that I was, I think, 24 years sober when I told them the truth. And I wrote the book basically as a way of coming clean to my wife, and she responded with such compassion and support, and I showed it to a couple of other people, and I got a literary agent, and everything just happened very fast. Yeah, and I can totally relate with all that. My opiate addiction started because of my depression and suicidal thoughts and all that, and kind of like you mentioned, heroin saved your life. I don't think a lot of people get that. We use and stuff. It keeps us together. It's like the only thing keeping us around. You know what I mean? Yeah. I mean, well, that's kind of the thing is that when my parents found out, I'd been using for about three years, and I was too ashamed of the depression to tell them why I started using. I was certainly too ashamed of the heroin. They were too outraged and scared to ask, and I feel like we know that alcohol isn't a problem for 90, 70% of people who drink, but with drugs, we assume that like, oh my God, your own drugs is terrible. You got to stop. Nobody ever asks, why are you using? And because it's so stigmatized, I mean, until two years ago when I started opening up about this stuff, I would go around saying things like, oh, heroin is pure evil, because that's what I thought people wanted to hear. And the fact is, I've been validating my own experience when I say that. And opioids, it's category. They're painkillers. They kill pain. They don't know if you have a prescription. They don't care. Opiate receptors regulate physical pain and emotional well-being. So painkillers don't know if you're killing emotional physical pain. And we have this idea that like, they've been in use longer than written language, but when we hear someone using illicitly, we're like, oh, well, clearly that's a bad person who's making excuses, and the painkillers are causing pain. And it's like everything that we know, these irrevocable scientific facts just kind of go out the window, and I don't get it. So yeah. Yeah, it's really interesting too, because like you're talking about, especially with opiates, they're painkillers, but it seems like all of us, it's just part of the human experience. We're all trying to get rid of some kind of suffering or pain, and some people turn to sex or shopping or gambling or whatever it is. And guys like you and me, and you know, millions of others around the world, we turn to, yeah, exactly. But we get hooked on like drugs and it destroys our lives. But like, do you think, do you think there's an issue with people not being able to see that, you know, we just happen to find this one substance, or addicts found this one substance while, you know, they're trying to cope in their own unhealthy toxic ways too. Why do you think there's such a disconnect and that kind of creates that stigma and that's understanding? I mean, I think drugs have been stigmatized. I'm not sure exactly when it started, but I read up a lot of history in the, during the Civil War, opioids were used on soldiers to cope with, you know, physical wounds and the emotional trauma. After the war, a lot of, you know, wealthy landowners in the South were using opium to drown their sorrows. So opioids were the default medications in America in the 1870s. And by, and around that time, there were, in San Francisco, there were a bunch of white dudes that were upset that their white women were sleeping with the Chinese guys that owned the opium dens. So they outlawed opium smoking. I think that probably created a lot of stigma. At the turn of the 20th century, one in 200 Americans was addicted to opioids. And the average addict was white middle class. Doctors and pharmaceutical companies were blamed for misleading people about the addictive properties of these drugs. So, you know, the, I think it was like the clean food, the pure food and drug act. Yeah. I mean, you know, so all these things happened. And like by the Harrison act of 1914, opioids were only available by prescription for physical pain. So it's like, we understand opioids for physical pain, you know, you have knee surgery and it's like, Oh my God, you know, you got to obviously you need, you need painkillers. But I feel like this, the kind of overarching thing is we know that we can't will away physical pain, but we think we can snap out of emotional pain. Yeah. So the idea that like you're taking heroin because you're depressed, like we just don't get it. Yeah. Yeah. It's nuts too. Like, I don't know if you've heard of like that one study, but you know, they had people like sit alone with their thoughts and it's like, Hey, you can sit here alone with your thoughts or like shock yourself, right. And a lot of especially dudes, they were like shocking themselves like we hate just sitting there and being with ourselves, you know, and let's go ahead. No, go ahead. I mean, nobody likes pain. But the minute you say, I'm killing pain, like you're an asshole. And I just like, you know, I mean, yeah, none of us, none of us like pain, you know what I mean? Like it's, it's, it's awful, especially, you know, emotional pain and the racing thoughts and all that. But with like, you talk a lot about your depression in the book and everything. And if you don't mind me asking, how old are you? Like, when did you grow up? Like it was 90s. Yeah, it was 80s and 90s. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. So I'm 36. I grew up in the 90s. And like, so we have a little bit of a gap. But like, you talk about like the depression and like, we're not educated about it. Like some part of my content is like trying to increase this awareness. Like, when you were like middle school, high school, or even within your household, did you guys talk about depression? Did you know what it was? Like, like me personally, I was looking around. I'm like, how the fuck is everybody so happy? Right? Like, I just, I didn't get it. And it wasn't until recent years that I'm like, Oh, mental health. Oh, this is what depression is. So, so how was it when you were growing up and what did it take for you to learn like what depression is and all that? That's a great question. So I mean, I, my earliest memories of childhood are my mom driving around with my mom and she's going like, why are you so sad? Don't you want to be happy? And I knew that I didn't want to be sad, but I didn't know how not to be sad. And I didn't know how to talk about it. And, you know, this is long before depression entered my vernacular. I was so ashamed. And I just, I thought I was broken. Like I would lie in bed at night wishing for a terminal disease. So in fifth, I grew up in the 80s, it was the height of the dare program, Nancy Reagan. So in fifth grade, this cop comes to my school for drug prevention assembly, and he tells us that you can't drive a car if you drink alcohol. Pop makes you stupid. He told this crazy story about acid that I've never taken a hallucinogen because of it, even though I know it's a lot. Dude, ditto, ditto, me too. I think, I think that's the only thing dare did for me. Well, I mean, you know, it's like, I think we're, we're, so what's interesting about that is we learn in fifth grade that each type of substance affects your neural pathways differently. Then we go to rehab and we're told, oh, drugs are the same. You know, it's all recreational drugs. We lump them all together. And, you know, we just, we forget that. But anyway, so the cop said the worst drug is heroin. And he said it was a painkiller so strong that you don't have any feelings. And he said that like it was a bad thing. And I'm thinking like, is that so. And he talked about the poppy. And I thought of, you know, the scene in the Wizard of Oz where the Wicked Witch makes them sleep and I'm like, that's exactly what I need. So in my, you know, I grew up just outside of New York City in a, you know, middle class suburb and heroin. I mean, I might as well have been looking for weapons grade plutonium. So, but I got progressively more depressed. My parents got divorced when I was like four. My mom started taking me to therapy. I was too ashamed of the depression to talk about my shitty feelings and my strengths figured it out. And anyway, by the time I was 16, I tried every antidepressant known to man, nothing provided any kind of relief. A lot of them made it worse. I smoked weed a couple of times and I hated it. I got drunk once and I couldn't stand it. I mean, I've had like sips of alcohol since then, but it's just not for me. And I basically made a deal with myself that like if, if I can find some heroin and it turns out to be what I think it is, I'm sad. And I don't care what it takes. Like it was like, you know, committing to a career or something. And if it's not, I'm going to kill myself. And so, you know, it obviously it was exactly what, you know, I thought it was. I mean, all of the, you know, it kills pain. And that's exactly what it did. And it was the first time that like I could breathe, you know, and that's where the title comes from. And so, you know, but I couldn't stand the lifestyle. Like he's trying to be okay. I'm not a bad person, but like, you know, you're driving to bad neighborhoods all the time and getting beat up and, you know, it's dangerous. I was terrified of needles until my tolerance, you know, kind of rendered that impractical. And so all of the, you know, the lies and the deceit and the risk and, you know, I mean, it's like, we, we, we have this stereotype of like addicts or liars. And it's like, we're lying because we're ashamed. If you've ever been ashamed of something and lied, you know, that it's, you know, you can't extrapolate that to the rest of your life. Like I'm not lying to you about what I had for breakfast. I'm lying to you that I, you know, so, so, you know, it was, it was, I told my parents, I mean, basically the book starts with my mom went to Florida for a week. I had tried to kick a bunch of times unsuccessfully. I gave my best friend my car and all my money and I set myself up for this kind of, you know, no exit to cold turkey kick. And from there, as far as everyone in my life was concerned, until this book until they were aware of this book, that was the last time I used drugs. The first page of the book is the last time I used drugs. Yeah, which is obviously not true. Yeah. And, and yeah, you kind of dive into, because you, you went to a treatment program and, and they introduced you to the 12 steps and stuff. And like, we might, we might even have to do a part two of this episode. But like, for example, I got, I got cleaned through 12 step programs over my years. I've kind of like, you know, not been as involved and stuff like that. But, you know, there's obviously like, you know, issues and criticisms and all that. But can you talk, you dive into it in the book, but can you talk a little bit about of like, what was your experience like in treatment? What, you know, were the things that helped? What turns you off from it? You know, like share a little bit about that. Okay. I mean, I, I, I'm very careful when I talk about this stuff, because I know people who are in AA and it works for them. It doesn't work for me. There's lots of science that shows that it increases dramatically the risk of relapse overdose and death. If it works for you, great. If it doesn't, there's no shame in that. Yeah. So, so for me, I got there, my mom had had cancer a couple of times before I got to rehab. I didn't know anybody who went to rehab. I knew what AA was, but that was it. And as soon as I get there, and they're telling me I have a disease, I'm like, that's not true. Like, you know, you're powerless and all that. And it's like, my mom didn't ask for cancer. I chose to stick needles in my arms. And you're telling me that God who doesn't cure any other diseases is going to help a scumbag like me and all the junkies and crackheads and drunks that just didn't make sense. So, you know, I was much too pragmatic for, I mean, you know, look, like in the bubonic plague times, if somebody said God is the answer and, you know, all of that, and like those who do not recover are constitutionally incapable of being able to help, they're like, yeah, that's fine. But I felt like, you know, like I had been around drunk people and I had seen them kind of get like, you know, violent and turned into asshole. So I, you know, I understood the kind of like, you should apologize. But, but it's like, it just, it didn't make sense that like, okay, so if I'm powerless, how am I putting my life in will in God's hands? And if he's keeping me clean and sober, then why do I get blamed for a relapse? You know, so just it didn't add up. And when I pushed back on it, and they're just going like, it works, and you're in denial. And, and, and I told them, you know, that they, they, they were like, he's in such denial, I told my, my mom that get all the booze out of the house and even hand sanitizer, because I'm going to get desperate up for high. And I'm going like, you know, I get why drinking soap is considered abuse, but like pain killers kill pain. And nobody's abusing them. We're just using them without a prescription. You know, so, so, and they're like, you know, rationalizing is addict mentality and whatever and like rationalizing is what we do when our rationale is rational. And you don't like what I'm saying, but that doesn't make it false. So it was just nonstop arguing. And, and they took away my music the minute I got there, which is really important part of my life. So it's like, the one thing that ever provided comfort heroin is gone. And now the next best thing, which is really a distant second, but you know, it's close, you know, you take that away because it's a trigger, it's like depression is the trigger, music isn't the trigger, you know, pain is the trigger for good. So, and then they told us, you know, you can't know no physical contact with members of the opposite sex, which seemed perfectly reasonable until this girl showed up there that I had a huge crush on. So, I mean, I don't want to give away what happens, but I mean, you know, it helped to, you know, have some, some lust in my loins. But yeah, I mean, you know, it was, it was just, I mean, now, you know, it's interesting because I was accused of, you know, just downright blasphemy at the time. And, you know, these outlier opinions and these crazy ass things that I'm saying, like, they're facts today, which is nice to be validated. But like, you know, the things that actually work are, you know, like, when A was developed in the 30s, in the 1930s, addiction was thought to be an incurable moral defect, right? So they labeled it a disease to decrease stigma. And now science is caught up and is calling it a disease or, you know, whatever. And it's like, you know, AA hasn't caught up with that. And I think so many people, like we're all using the word addiction, but I think everybody means something different. And the idea that sobriety cures addiction, like, if, if, if we're heroin addicts and we stop using heroin and go through withdrawal and all the dope is out of our system, we're sober, we're no longer addicted. I'm not talking about the like, I'm feeding for dope. I mean, your body is no longer dependent on heroin, right? So sobriety cured our addiction, right? So sobriety does not cure your compulsion to use drugs. So, you know, it's like compulsive behavior is a mental health disorder. And addiction is a physical, is a physical medical condition. So like compulsive behaviors, you know, like the people that like I have to turn the doorknob 37 times or else, you know, yeah, mom's gonna die or something like that. Right. So like, if you stop turning the doorknob, you are sober, you still want to, we haven't solved the problem of why you're turning the doorknob. And I think that's the part that's missing. So we, we are told that sobriety is the answer. I mean, sobriety and recovery were used interchangeably in rehab when I was there. And that's not the, I mean, pain doesn't stop when you stop taking painkillers, it gets worse. Oh, yeah, for sure. Um, yeah, yeah, when I, you know, when I did my cold turkey detox, my mom tossed me into a sober living. She, you know, she stopped drinking when I was like 20. But anyways, I went into sober living and, and yeah, I totally get what you're saying. Like, I was more depressed and suicidal when the drugs were gone. Right. And the fact that they took away your music, like I'm reading that, I'm like, what, what is happening, you know, pain comes back. I mean, you're taking painkillers. Yeah, yeah. And, uh, and yeah, so, yeah, I definitely, I definitely agree with what you're saying. Like, uh, I worked at a treatment center for three years and, you know, teaching and sharing my experience and stuff like that. And although the 12 step programs helped me, I had to use this massive filter, right? Because you get people who are very dogmatic, right? And there were so many people who made me want to just get up and leave. It's just, I was just so desperate. I'm like, whatever, I'll sit here and I'll just filter all this stuff out. I'll tune out who I had to. So, you know, and, but kind of like you said, too, like, you know, it works for some people. It doesn't work for others. Like for me personally, like my advice to new people or people who want to get clean, I'm like, hey, whatever the hell works, right? As long as you're not miserable anymore, as long as you're not killing yourself and hurting your family and, and all that, you know? I mean, well, and that's kind of the, the key that I think we lose sight of is that like, um, you know, O sobriety gets easier with time and all that. Like the biological mechanics of a hit of heroin is the same as, you know, blackjack sex crack, like all the other stuff that you mentioned. I mean, everything, you know, it's a, it's a flood of dopamine and serotonin to your brain. Soxytocin, you know, it's all the, all the feel good feelings. The difference is that opioids are the only type of substance and obviously vice, um, that have a natural target in the brain, your opiate receptors. And so they, they multiply with each dose. And that's whether you're prescribed it for knee surgery or you're, you know, buying it in the street, it doesn't matter. Um, and so we, that's how tolerance happens, right? We get more and more opiate receptors. They need to be saturated, um, in order for us to just feel, you know, some base level of normal, but there are all these studies that show that, um, you know, the neurotransmitters that rewire when addiction happens, like I need to get more dope. Um, they sobriety does get easier with time with other, with everything else, because the neurotransmitters do rewire. They don't, you don't shed all those opiate receptors with dope. So, you know, all of this, like I'm white knuckling it and they're, you know, bravado and pride in that, like I, um, was completely fucking miserable without dope. And I didn't know what to do and sobriety wasn't getting easier. And, you know, yeah, I mean, I hadn't begun to recover and all that, but like, um, that's the thing about medically assisted treatment that's so important is that like, I don't understand why anybody would choose to be miserable when they don't have to be. And there's so much science that shows, um, you know, that, that your neurotransmitters don't rewire. And also that, you know, abstinence, the reason, one of the reasons that it increases the risk of, um, of, of overdose and death is because when you have no tolerance and you have a moment and you go, I just need to, you know, I'm going to just use a little bit. Like that's when you're more likely to die. So like there was a study in general here that said, um, you know, if your kid is on drugs, like, you know, we react and throw them at me, right. So if you're, if you find out your kid is on drugs and you send them to, uh, some kind of program with medically assisted treatment, buprenorphine, you know, whatever, the risk of overdose relapse and death decreases by 79%. Right. Um, if you send them to rehab, it goes up somewhere around the same, right, traditional inpatient rehab. If you do absolutely nothing, you say, please just be careful. I'm going to get some Narcan. Um, don't use alone. You know, just basic harm reduction. Yeah. Um, their chances of survival are significantly higher than if you send them to an A or inpatient rehab, you know, all like that. And that just kind of like blows my mind. Like I had to read that a thousand times. Um, you know, like it's, it's the opposite of what we're told. And even though I know that that stuff doesn't work, I still was like, wait a minute, can that really be, but yeah, so yeah. Yeah. So here's the thing too. I love the book so much, but David, I, I know you just met me, but I need you to promise me that you're going to write another book on just harm reduction as a whole, right. Because yeah, there's kind of black and white thinking where it's like absence or nothing and so many people are dying and I'm sitting here and kind of like what, what you mentioned too, like, uh, just newly so, uh, newly clean people and then they relapse and the risk of dying. Like I worked in treatment for three years and had over 80 people die. It was a big rehab, you know what I mean? But so many of them was after like a month clean and just going back, you know what I mean? Because tolerance is messed up and, and all that stuff. But yeah, man, like, I, I would love for you to talk because yeah, because like my only criticism of the book, I was like, all right, now we're getting into when he gets like, you know, buprenorphine, right? Like you never even heard of this stuff. So, oh, you had, oh, you had. Okay. So kind of, kind of share that like, uh, if you can give like a brief overview of what it is for those who don't know what it is. Um, why'd you wait since you did know about it, why'd you wait, you know, to take it? And how did it help you? How did it save your life? Sure. Um, so buprenorphine is a partial opioid agonist. Um, basically any other opioid that, that you can think of or have taken is going to be a full agonist. That's everything from heroin, morphine, oxycontin, codeine, you know, Vicodin, purpose, etc. So the difference is it attaches to your opiate receptors with less, it just, it fills them a little bit less. Um, but it, it binds better. It has a higher binding affinity than full agonists. I think all full agonists and it, um, and I think it's especially good with the Kappa and Mu receptor, which are especially, uh, like depression, emotional pain receptors. I'm sorry. I'm like forgetting my stuff here. Yeah, it's cool. You're not a neuroscientist. Yeah, I'm just a guy. Um, so I don't know what I'm talking about. Uh, so, um, so for me, I, my friend who gave me my first set of heroin, who was like the, I mean, he was my best friend and, um, and I'm, you know, we're still friends today. Um, he, he participated in the buprenorphine clinical trials in New York in the early nineties before available, you know, you couldn't get it anywhere else except, uh, I think it was Dr. Resnick's office anyway. Um, so he was one of the first people to use it. Um, and I knew about it before I used heroin. Um, and there was a scene in the book that we cut that like basically where the book starts, the original beginning was like, I don't know, like 12, 15 hours earlier. Uh, and it's this whole conversation with my friend, Rob, uh, you know, telling me like, let's I'll call Dr. Resnick, let's get you a methadone clinic, blah, blah, blah. So I thought that it was only for kicking. I didn't know that it was a maintenance drug. Um, I knew that methadone was and so, um, the whole time I was trying to stop, I couldn't get on methadone because I couldn't go to a clinic every day. Nobody knew about this stuff. I mean, it was just impossible. Um, and I thought buprenorphine was only for kicking. So it was kind of useless to me, you know, like I might as well just go through withdrawal and be done with it. Um, so, uh, so basically when, um, after a bunch of real, I don't want to, you know, obviously I lived at the end of the book, but um, you know, but, but it was, it was, um, this friend, I hadn't seen him in a while and he kind of resurfaced. And that was when I, you know, became aware of what it is and what it does. Yeah. So when, uh, how many years ago did you start doing, uh, buprenorphine maintenance? And, and is that the same as suboxone? Suboxone is just like the, yeah. Yeah, buprenorphine is the, um, is the medicine that's in suboxone, subutex, you know, whatever. Um, so it's like, I see the benefit in that bill. Yeah. Yeah. So how long, how long you been taking that? Um, I've been on it for 13 years and, um, I think it's worth mentioning that, you know, it, it dissolves under your tongue. Um, the first time I took it, I forget exactly how long it took to start working, but the moment it kicked in, it was, it was as evident that that was the answer as it was that heroin was the answer when I was 16. I mean, it was so clear, not even a question. It saved my life. It gave me my life. Um, you know, I, I, it was like getting rescued in a, in a rescue boat when you've been flailing in the middle of the ocean for, you know, 20 years. Um, and, uh, and so, um, you know, I, I didn't tell anybody about the buprenorphine either. Um, I was on it for 10 years, you know, not even my wife and, um, because I was so ashamed. Uh, and when I started talking, you know, it's like it, it raises the basement level of my depression. So like if I'm normally, you know, in, in the, you know, root cellar, um, it lifts me up to a point where, you know, there's, there's like, um, you know, depression is a degenerative biological condition, right? So this manages that there's certain potential depression of like, um, you know, I, I, I, something crappy happens and I feel bad about it. Um, you know, it, it doesn't numb all pain the way that it allows me to function like a normal person. Yeah. Right. Um, and, and the same, you know, it's like, if you think about it, like, um, you know, you have back pain, your doctor gives you percocet and then you fall off a roof, you're going to need something stronger than percocet. Um, you know, so, um, so I, I, I was, I was taking it and, you know, I had this doctor who after 10 years, she was like, you know, you've been on it for 10 years, you don't need this crap anymore. You got to stop taking it, whatever. And I'm at that point, um, actually it was 11 years. I was out in the world screaming about, don't let anybody shame you out of your room. Um, and I'm thinking like, yeah, I'm a disgusting junkie. I should stop doing this. I don't need this crap, you know, whatever. And, um, and, and it's such, it's such faulty logic. Um, last year, uh, I was invited on, um, uh, that show, uh, The Doctors. Oh yeah. Yeah. You mentioned that in the book, I think. Yeah. So, um, so did I, oh yeah, right. It was, it was, I saw you tweet about it. Yeah, it's in the epilogue. Yeah. Um, so they asked me the same question, you know, you've been on this stuff for a long time, when are you going to stop taking it, you know, whatever. And, um, and I said, uh, you know, would you ask a, uh, if we were talking about diabetes insulin, would you say, you know, well, gee, your, your diabetes is clearly in check when are you going to stop taking this life-saving medication? It's working that, you know, my, my, everything is cool because I'm taking it. If I stop, I'm going to have a problem. And so if I'm susceptible to that kind of, you know, stigma and shame and stereotyping and all that, and I'm like screaming about this on television, um, I can't imagine like an 18 year old kid in Kentucky whose parents are being told by these experts without medical qualifications. Oh, it's an extension of his addiction. It's just as bad as heroin, you know, blah, blah, blah. It's like, I mean, look, after your next hip replacement surgery, ask for buprenorphine instead of morphine and let us know how it goes. Um, but, you know, it, like people are being, um, you know, weaned off and forced off and it's just, it's, it's dangerous. This is the leading cause of death right now. Like there's nothing more important than that. And we're just, you know, sabotaging all these opportunities for change. Yeah, absolutely. And, and the, the shame around it, like just the shame around addiction, the shame around mental illness and then the shame around harm reduction, I will, I will never forget. I will never forget when I was, when I was new and, you know, going back to, you know, speaking of like meetings and stuff. I remember going to this meeting and this dude shared his story. He was celebrating like three years. He shared this story, like, uh, I believe his wife died and his daughter died, right? And he's been clean from heroin for three years. And that, that inspired me. I was like a month or two in, right? And then after the meeting, I remember people talking like, he's not really clean. He's on, he's on buprenorphine. And I'm like, are you, are you kidding me right now? I'm like, this dude's life, like this dude like has had stuff happen that I can't even fathom and you're judging him, you know, for this. So there's not only like, you know, kind of the medical stigma, but there's stigma in the rooms and stuff. And for me personally, it's like the quality of life, like, like, you know, just sitting here with you right now after you're reading your book, your quality of life seems pretty damn good right now. I mean, I don't think I seem fucked up, but, you know, you tell me, but, um, yeah, I mean, you know, I think it's, it's so, um, you know, the minute drugs enter a conversation, it's like we kind of lose our minds. I mean, you know, my mom is more educated than most just, you know, by virtue of listening to my, you know, bullshit all the time, but she falls into this old way of thinking also. And it's like, you know, the bottom line, when something is dangerous, we find ways to make it less dangerous. Like, period. We don't say like, oh, well, if you fall off your bike, you know, you might, you might hurt your head. So therefore we're not going to make bike helmets available and we're going to outlaw bicycles. Like that's not how anything works. Like gun locks, um, seatbelts. I mean, these are all things that save lives. And the idea that like this many people are dying and people are going, oh, well, you know, um, of course, drugs are illegal, you know, because they're dangerous and alcohol, you know, isn't, I mean, that's just not true. Alcohol is safer because it's legal overdose is an overly potent dose, right? So if potency is by volume, um, you know, if, if like, if there's two pint glasses right on a table and one of them is, you know, 2% beer and the other one is 99% grain alcohol, um, you know, you're going to die if you drink the grain alcohol, right? If you don't know it's grain alcohol, you're, you're fucked and you're dead. And that's how accidental overdose happens. If you, if it's labeled this one is the beer and this one is the grain alcohol, you can prevent overdose. So people are dying because one bag of heroin, you know, there's no consistency in the potency. It's, it's all unknown. There's no quality assurance number you call and say, like, my heroin is fentanyl in it. Nobody's asking for the lethal fentanyl when they buy dope. And, and these myths of like, you know, drug dealers or blood thirsty predators, like, you don't have to be a fucking genius to figure out that dead customers are not good for repeat business. Yeah, I, that blows my mind. Like, why would, why would you do that? Like, you don't need to be an entrepreneur to figure that out, you know, it doesn't make sense. And like, I mean, you know, the fact that fentanyl is here, I mean, it makes perfect sense. Like in any distribution model, you know, whether you're driving around, you know, orange juice or drugs, like, you want the highest profit margin with the smallest volume, right? So why wouldn't you want fentanyl? And in the 70s, when they made pot, they classified pot as the same category as heroin and cocaine, it's like, if I'm a drug smuggler, I want to smuggle the most expensive highest margin drug, like not the, the pot that like stinks and takes up, you know, giant suitcases for a little bit pot. So it's also demand, like, we're an instant gratification society, everybody's fucking miserable, anti-depressants don't work for 50% of, of, of depressed adults. 20% of depressed adults are using opioids, they kill pain, depression is pain. We can't seem to figure out why this is happening. You know, it's like, demand for painkillers will, will stop when, when our pain supply, you know, ends. And if we're not going to solve the problems that lead people to use drugs, the very least we can do is make drugs safer. And it's like, you know, this, the, the judgment, I mean, it's just pain is the only subjective vital sign. I mean, when you're talking about this guy, excuse me, he lost his wife and daughter. I mean, you know, it's like, I'm listening to that, I'm thinking like, it, it, yeah, it's great, you know, to defend him. But like, even if he was just a normal dude who was miserable reason for him to suffer, you know, our, our, it doesn't rewire. So all this bravado of like, you know, it's going to get better. And then it doesn't, I mean, it's exactly what he said, that's the quality of life. Like I, I don't want to suffer. I suffered enough, you know, I'm just not interested in it. And it seems like the things that are, you know, pretty much guaranteed by most, most people, you know, consider, you know, people who take drugs take them because they feel good. People who have sex have sex because it feels good. Nobody goes out in the world and says like, I like sex and drugs, they feel good. And it's like, you know, we moralize the things that feel the best. And I just don't get it. Yeah. Yeah, especially in just, you know, not even get crazy into, you know, the political aspect, but in this like capitalist country where it's like, oh, go, go work and have this unethical corporation. And so these guys can have all this money and buy yachts and cars and stuff like that. But you know, like we, we, you know, demonize these things. And one thing that I find really interesting, I think of as you're talking about them and like the harm reduction and decriminalization. What blows my mind is that this isn't some like thing that hasn't been tested in other countries. They have safe injection sites. They have needle exchanges, right? I was watching a vice documentary just a few months ago. I think it was in Sweden, maybe Sweden or Norway. And maybe, maybe, and it was like a safe injection site and their overdose, their overdose deaths are like non-existent because they have people there with Narcan. You know, in the, in all of the safe injection sites that have ever been in the world, in the history of since the first safe injection site was opened, every one of them 100% all over the world, whether they're open or not anymore, there's never been an overdose fatality in a safe injection site ever anywhere at any time. They work. We need them because, you know, look, any idiot can serve drinks at a bar because you know when you're pouring, you're not going to pour beer and find out that it's grain alcohol later, right? Yeah. You need, you know, we need safe injection sites because that's happening. Like when you, when you have a tolerance, I mean, alcohol is the same as heroin or other drugs. Like, you know what your tolerance is, if potency impurity is consistent, you can manage your own dose. You know, I mean, we just, it's like oxy, I mean a 10 milligram oxy content, it's not like an 80 milligram is like the size of a fucking hamburger. You know, everything is potency is by volume. So, so the safe injection sites are like a consolation prize for legalization and regulation, but the people who don't want to legalize and regulate also don't want the safe injection sites. You know, and it's, it's really very tragic. I mean, and the fear of like, we debunk these myths every day in our life. The idea that like legalization leads to widespread use. I mean, I'm not drunk right now. You don't seem drunk right now. I didn't load up on beer the last time I went to the gas station. I don't know if you did. You know, most people don't ask anybody on the street, would you start using meth if it was legal? No, God, why would I do that? Do you know anybody who would absolutely not? You know, does legalization lead to widespread use? Yes, definitely. Everybody's going to be on drugs. Really, you know, it's fascinating. So it's like, you know, we're just, we're so scared. And there's, there's the worst fear of like, I think people confuse the argument with whether you want people to use drugs legalization. And that's not what it is. It's what it's whether you want people not to die from drugs and like decriminalization. I mean, it's very important. And I'm certainly not against it. But when you think about how overdose happens, right, like, so you go out and you buy drugs, and you don't know what you're getting, right? Like I bought heroin and, you know, it's carofensinol and, you know, fucking baby laxative, right? Yeah. I'm holding the bag. Okay. I'm not going to get arrested when I'm holding the bag of drugs that I don't know what's in the bag. And then I'm going to go use it, I'm going to die because I don't know what it is. So decriminalization protects you at the safest point, you know, in the thing, it's like, you know, decriminalized alcohols, I'm holding a bottle of vodka. That is the only time that the vodka isn't going to have any effect on me when I'm holding it. You know, so it's, decriminalization doesn't change the drugs. And the drugs are the problem right now. Yeah, there's so many just arbitrary laws and rules and like, and that's, I think, you know, when you have people like us, right, who talk about and just like, you know, asking them these questions, like you were saying, like, you know, like, so why not, right? And I think it takes more conversations. But as you mentioned, too, just not knowing what's in it, it's crazy because I've had nobody I know personally, but, you know, a couple of years ago, a friend of a friend passed away, because she OD'd and everybody at the party was too afraid to call the police, right? And there's certain states where you have laws where you can't get in trouble. And it's like, I try to educate people about that because a lot of people don't even know. But there's so many laws around this and people are so afraid of getting in trouble, that we're losing thousands of people just because somebody won't call for help. You know what I mean? Yeah, I mean, the Good Samaritan laws, they're not in every state, Indiana. Narcan is probably a cause for search now. Really? So if you get pulled, right. So who do you think is not driving around with Narcan? Right? The fucking people who need them, who need it? And it's like, yeah, I mean, we have these laws like, lives have to be the priority. And they're just not. And it's really that simple. If lives were the priority, we would have a safe supply of drugs. I mean, I go to the drug store to get my buprenorphine every month. And it's always the same thing. My doctor calls it in. I make my appointment whenever he wants to see me. Sometimes it's early. I show up the drug store like, oh, you're a day early. We can't give it to you. Like such sticklers, they have discretion. I happen to have like a stockpile of buprenorphine at home. So I'm not in danger of running out. But they're treating me like I'm getting stoned on it or something. Or I'm selling it or whatever it is. They threaten to call the DEA on me once, which is totally fucked up. Really? But in the meantime, yeah. But like, so the drug store is right next to a liquor store, right? So I could like leave the drug store, go to the liquor store, buy enough booze to die, you know, a million times over. No problem. We trust you with that. You know, we trust you to buy guns. They're dangerous. But we trust you don't do anything bad. We don't trust you with painkillers because you might hurt yourself. I mean, you know, and the methadone, it's like, I call, there's a bunch of methadone clinics around me. I've been calling them periodically just to, you know, see what's going on. So like I sign up for the waitlist, right? I'm on a waitlist for a methadone clinic near me, which is, you know, I'm a little over an hour from New York City, so it's a little bit north. I've been on the waitlist for 16 months. Wow. So, right. So, you know, right now, you know, toxic fentanyl, fentanyl analogs, I mean, anything, you can get any drugs delivered to any address in America in under 24 hours. You can't get buprenorphine that fast. You have to leave your house to get methadone. Doctors can write a prescription for, you know, methadone and buprenorphine are, you know, they're the only medications that are proven to reduce the risk of overdose, relapse and death. So if a doctor writes you a prescription for methadone because you broke your shoulder or whatever, you can fill it at the drug store, no problem. The doctor writes, same doctor writes the same amount of methadone, same prescription. To me, for addiction, I can only go to the clinic. And if we want people to get well and live normal lives and we're treating them like they're lying fucking criminals, that's not exactly conducive to that. I mean, you know, I'm the primary parent for my kids. Like, I can't, I couldn't go to a clinic every day and I say this to them, you know, like I act like I'm really, like I got to get on methadone, like it's a disaster. And I'm telling them, like, look, I can get drugs sent to my house like all day long. Why can't, you know, if you, if it's peeing in a cup, like come to my house and I'll piss in a cup for you all day, no problem. So let me, let me ask you this. I only have a little bit more of your time, but I'm curious, like I want to talk about policy real quick. And, you know, when I, when I think about this stuff, like I know that I don't know all the answers. And there's, you know, there's a lot of nuances to it. So like, what, what's your goal? Like, do you, do you have like policy specific policy change in mind? Or are you just trying to like, is your primary goal just like raising awareness? Like, yo, this is a problem and we need legislatures to talk about this and address it. Like, I just, like right before we hopped on, I tagged you and, you know, in a tweet talking about like how every, every election cycle, these politicians are talking about how they're going to focus on the epidemic. And then once they get in office, jack shit happens, right? So, so are you like, do you have policy in mind, or do you just hope to raise awareness? Like, what are you hoping happens when it comes to harm reduction, the epidemic and all that? I mean, you know, what I'm hoping for and what I realistically expect are two totally different things. And I think, you know, it's interesting to use the word epidemic because epidemics can be contained. And based on our response, like this is a fucking plague. You know, we're, we, every life saving resource is stigmatized and criminalized and restricted. And this is the leading cause of death. I mean, if we had responded to COVID like this, we'd be blaming everybody who died for their own death and so forth. So I'm, legalization and regulation is vital to me. Understand and resources, mental health resources because, you know, people who like, if, if you can't imagine how life would be so terrible that heroin would seem like a good idea to you, you know, then, then you know, perhaps you can appreciate, you know, what, what we've experienced. And it's like, you know, people need resources to deal with these things. If we're not going to, so we have to make drugs safer first and foremost and stop judging. Even in the countries where, you know, Portugal, it's decriminalized, overdose, fatalities are down. You know, needle, all these harm reduction programs, clean needles, stop the spread of disease and save lives. Save lives. That's all they do. If they led to drug use, every doctor or nurse would be a junkie right now. I mean, you know, so it's like, I'm trying to raise awareness by just pointing out the absence of logic in, you know, everything that we're doing. I'm certainly not opposed to decriminalization. I mean, I realize it's incremental steps and whatever. I feel like this is a fucking emergency. I mean, it's a national health emergency. Like, yeah, and it has been for years, right? And we're criminalizing a national health emergency and that's the problem. So I think, you know, really the, my biggest priorities are legalization, regulation and resources for, for mental health and, and sorry, harm reduction. Yeah. So, so I'm one of those fortunate people or, you know, I guess like, I was like, five minutes away from heroin, right? Like my thing was prescription pain pills. I was just hustling doctors going to emergency rooms, all that. So when we talk about policy change and stuff, how much influence do you think Big Pharma has on this? Like, do you think like that is our biggest hurdle? You know, that's a really interesting question because if, if they do have so much influence, I mean, if I'm, what Purdue Pharma did was so reprehensible. But if you take a step back, are we really shocked that they wanted to make a profit and they wanted to get, I mean, you know, like McDonald's wants people to eat their fucking hamburgers? Like it really shouldn't be a surprise to us that some company has a very addictive drug and they want people to get addicted to their very, you know, addictive drug. So if I'm, if I'm a drug company, whether, whether, you know, not, whether I'm Purdue Pharma or any company that makes any kind of opioids, I would think that I would want to get behind legalization because now I'm providing the safe supply, you know? And that kind of infrastructure is already in place. Like the, you know, you see what's going on with like the pot industry right now. You know, some of these weed store, I've been to a few of them and like they take themselves very seriously. It's like being in a hospital. It's not the, you know, scumbag, you know, kind of like the weird shit that used to do. Yeah, I live in Vegas and we legalized it 2016 and it's crazy. They're like legit set up and yeah, that's nuts. Right. So, so like, you know, the model already exists. Like you take the alcohol. I mean, look, if we ended the war on drugs right now and taxed and legalized and regulated drugs, tax and sold them like alcohol, we would go from lighting $48 billion a year on fucking fire to $106 billion net swing like that. You know, it's a positive net swing that immediately takes effect. So like if we were to just set up stores, tell the drug companies, sell your drugs, here you go, you know, no problem. The same way that alcohol, I mean, obviously the packaging would have to be different and all that, you know, clearly the market exists. I mean, like, you know, I think anybody who likes heroin would probably take the Pepsi challenge for Dilaudid, you know, whatever. So I think that exists. It cuts the cartels right out. Like it seems, it's not as simple as I'm describing, but it's not, it's not nearly as complicated as people think. Yeah. Yeah. And I could tell you, you think about this a lot. And as you lie, it's just like, you know, even from a profit making perspective, it seems logical, rational for drug companies, pharmaceutical companies. Yeah, like you guys should push for legalizing weed. Now you guys make the best medical grade stuff around or, you know, whatever. So last question, please, like, no worries. Do you, so do you think, do you think it's a lot of like just, I don't know, stigma from just the average person? Because for example, people will boycott and go crazy if a methadone clinic is going to open up in their neighborhood or, you know, whatever. So, so do you think it's, you know, more government and legislatures and all that? Or do you think it's more regular public awareness and education about this stuff? Like, which one, if I could only choose one, which one should I focus on, regular people or trying to get Washington to change? I think it's regular people because I mean, when you look at the last year's election cycle, the only things that received overwhelming bipartisan support were drug bills. You know, I mean, in Oregon, in Washington DC, any state that had any kind of decriminalizing, legalizing, whatever, it was overwhelming. Because everybody, this affects everybody. You know, so I think politicians, they respond to people, they don't say like, I think we should legalize drugs. What do you guys think? Like they've got people banging down their doors going, let's legalize drugs. And they're like, I guess we're going to do that. So I think it's really, it's a grassroots, ground up thing. And for me, the challenge is like, you know, I'm not a famous person. This is my first book, like two years ago, nobody knew any of this crap. So like I'm, you know, a baby. And you know, I just, I hope that more people go out and learn about this, because like the whole point of the book is to raise awareness of the issues. Like this is definitely not, you know, I was in private equity for 20 years, I don't have a job anymore, except writing like this is definitely not a get rich quick scheme. I really don't care if anybody buys the book, I want people to read it. Yeah, no, even as we're talking, it's been on sale for 99 cents, like even though you sent me a copy when I was like, here, I'll buy another copy, you know, whatever. But yeah, so, so hopefully that's also going on when everybody's listening to this. But I, but yeah, absolutely, man. And yeah, I really appreciate you coming on. And there's so much more that you talk about in the book and we could talk about this forever. But but yeah, man, like, where, where can people find you, you know, to stay in touch? Like you're always tweeting about drug policy and all the ridiculousness and stuff like that. So where's the best people for a way for people to follow you? And all that kind of stuff. Okay. So my website is David poses.com. Just how it sounds. And all my social media handles are, you know, it's all on that there's a contact form. Through that, I'm David the kick on Twitter. On Instagram, I'm David underscore the kick. I don't really use Instagram that much. So Twitter is definitely a better place. But you know, my website sent an email through my website. I'm carrier pigeon in my house. You know, you can find me here pretty much anytime. So beautiful. Awesome. Yeah. And I'll link all that stuff down in the description below. But yeah, man, I appreciate your time so much. And yeah, we'll talk again soon. Great. In this