 as you probably know. Joining me today is the incredible Regina Victor. Hi, Regina. Hello, everybody. Hi, Laura, good to see you. Yeah, you're coming to us from Chicago, is that correct? Yes, yes, Chicago, the Windy City. So windy, such a city. Thank you so much for being here. This is a real honor and gonna be a lot of fun. I wanna tell you a little bit about Regina, those of you who are unaware, because how could you be, she's so, they are so fantastic. Regina is a director and a dramaturg and a critic started rescripted.org as an alternative venue to talk about theater. Just you are such an incredible theater maker and theater thinker. And so I thought it would be really amazing to have you on, to talk about what you do and kind of how you come to all of the things that you do and what you think is important about theater, both kind of how we used to do it and also like who knows where we're going, but you had a beautiful article came out about kind of talking about institutions and artists and this relationship certainly now that I'd love you to talk about many things. I could just talk to you all day, but a little bit about what we're kind of doing here, this is, we call it a class, but it's a talk and it's for folks out there who are in this moment, able to think about theater to take a break in stress or anxiety or their day or their childcare to put their brains to what was, what will be and something that we all love. So there's a lot of students that watch, there's a lot of professionals. So yeah, we just wanna hear from you. So can you tell me about how you come to do what you do? What was the kind of mini journey of Regina? I love that question, because I've been thinking a lot about like why, like theater as a medium, so like why am I an artist? How did I actually get here? It's a good time, but I started as a singer. So my dad's a musician and I was a professional singer for most of my like young adult life, but I was gonna like do opera, so funny. And opera's wonderful, the discipline is, physical discipline, it's amazing. And so I kind of moved into acting, musical theater, dancing, and then what I was about like in my late 20s or mid 20s after college, that I finally was like, okay, I think it's time to like start directing and using that viewpoint. And it was sort of by necessity. It was never been like, I'm gonna learn this new skill in theater because this is like something that I think I'm gonna be really good at, which is so funny. Like you would think that's how it works, but a lot of times it's like, there's nobody to do this job and if you want to keep doing the thing you love, someone's gonna have to do this job. And it's how I became a production manager for Barry, Barry's Festival with Amy, which is an amazing opportunity, kind of taught me how to be a producer today. But yeah, like I do, what I do a lot of times because people need it, like it starts with like the vagina monologues, which I know it's like, people feel how they feel about it, but it was a really transformative show for me in school. We did it for four years, we raised a bunch of money, like thousands of dollars every year for a shelter. And the final year, they were like, my senior year, they're like, well, no one's directing it, so it's not gonna do it. And that was the first thing I directed. So it's always been that kind of like falling into. But now I think the thing that I do, that I realized about all those pieces is I just really like building worlds and I like building possibilities and that is why theater is an interesting medium for me. So I kind of did it a lot of times. Great, great. And so right now, like on a normal, I mean, what's a normal week, but like a normal week, you are doing lots of things, right? It's not, you're sometimes writing about theater, you're sometimes as a working as a dramaturg, and sometimes as a director, you kind of hop between all of them. That's kind of the reality. Absolutely, yeah. Yeah, it's funny, standing still in this moment and looking all of my dogs in the face has been like an experience because so many of them are compartmentalized by physical distance. So I go to rehearsal and then I go to a show and I write about this show, but my dad lands in 36 hours, so I have a meeting in the morning. Yeah, you kind of speak all those things through physical presence, even in this connected world. And now every day you wake up, you're like, oh, here are my six different roles at the tap the day. How does one organize their brain? And they're not like in physical space. That's kind of an interesting journey. But yeah, a lot of times it is like, nine to one, work at one job, two to four, have meetings somewhere else, six to 11, go rehearse and it's great. I like doing a diversity of things that I always have. Yeah, I mean, I've always loved that about your career and what you put out in the world because it does kind of hop between things that people are used to saying, well, I'm a this and I'm a that. And you're like, I'm all of it. I'm an I don't know yet. Well, a lot of people try to tell me that that was like necessary, like do one thing and to get your like 10,000 hours in the one thing that you know, you want to do. And especially because I was a classical actor, there was a lot of like, please don't like Shakespeare singing like do those two things, you know, nobody especially young black kids like do that thing. But I was just like, you know, I think for me to grow as a person, like I need to actually do all of these things at once because they all feed each other. And I worked for of all people, James Franco's mother when I was a child, you know, and I think there was something about watching this grown man, just be like, I'm gonna be a painter today. I'm gonna do this today and still be making like millions of dollars. And I was like, I'll figure it out. That's such a great point. You're like, nobody's waiting for to give him approval. They're just like. You're a Renaissance man. You know what I mean? But we'll figure it out. But I mean, when I think about you, I think of like a theater maker. And I, as opposed to a like a one, a theater thinker maker, Da Vinci kind of thing. And I do think that's actually really exciting for certainly people earlier on in their career, which are probably getting the same advice than you and I got of like focus, do the one thing, do the thing. Like maybe two things. You can kind of be playwright director. You can kind of be actor director, but to add more of the things just gets, it confuses people. But it's not necessarily true. And it's all, of course, how you do it and how you think about it. And I think you're such a great example of that. And also the way that that kind of busts up a couple of narratives that we've absorbed as theater makers of theaters done this way with this people and you have to prove yourself this and this before, you know, and it seems like there is just such power in making and self-defining and creating. Yeah, those elusive do's, you know what I mean? They are never really done. I mean, I do this thing sometimes where I have people close their eyes and pretend I'm a white guy and I list off my resume. And I'm like, do you think this man would not have a job or do not have whatever, right? Like, and I just play whatever the game is like at the time, but I do it in classes at the time. Cause I do think the amount of experience that we asked people to have is a little bit like insurmountable. And then when you get it, it's like, well, now you have to wait for your special job. You know, and that's a weird game to play. So I think the most like that's part of the scripted. I was like, I need to kind of have some agency over what I'm creating and when. And so I made a corner for myself, like artistic expression and management. And now I'm fortunate to have to work at court theater, which is kind of like that special job, right? But I love working on classic theater. I'm a huge geek. So I'm not going to talk about that yet. Well, I'd love to eventually talk about kind of jumping from classics to new work and how they talk to each other or don't, but could you for a second, since you brought it up, talk about scripted and kind of what the birth of that was, the thought process, kind of how you decide which shows to cover it, just all of that. Cause it's again, such a kind of paradigm shift in terms of like, well, let's expand who talks about theater and that kind of asks us to expand who makes it and why we make it. So would you tell us a little bit about that? Yeah. So scripted started in April of 2017, they're about, I think our first review was like June 1st. And it started really again out of this need, right? I arrived in Chicago. I had been here for about nine months and I had noticed the criticism was like, not what I would necessarily love to see. Like there were a lot of things actually before we had a huge event. I'll call it an event, whatever, about Passover. Yeah. Well, yes. Beautiful play. Such a beautiful play. And a lot of people think that like that was the genesis for Chicago's critics movement, which it really wasn't. Like there were already so many conversations happening up to that point, to the fact that even my hall round essay, which I think came out in April talks about Hedy Weiss and Chris Jones and breaks down like Hedy talking about people of color as food or all these little insidious things that maybe aren't as obvious as some of the things that are written in the Passover review, but over time can shift the worldview. And so that essay came out in April and I don't think Passover, that kind of started in July, August, so it was sort of this big bubble up into, oh no, who's going to write criticism especially with Hedy leaving her post. It became clear that there was not going to be hiring a full-time critics once they left. I think that was what her transition taught us. And I realized I didn't really know people who wanted to do that. I didn't really know young people of color who wanted to do that. Like people are asking me like, who are your young critics or young writers? I write, so I start writing because that's what's happening. And Wendy City Times hired me and it was great. I wrote for HowlRound and I love it, but it made me realize that like, if I could just kind of teach other people, like I talk, I write how I talk. I write how I talk and I just distill it. And so it's a relatively easy way to learn how to write. And so I've developed kind of a training system out of that. And the idea is that with your scripted, any artist with a formulated opinion, like I used to literally take Facebook posts. I would go online and say, you're a great writer. You want to add 200 words to that and send it in. And now it's got to how we started. Because it was like with those people who were writing like cannons, eye-cultures, amazing, his face was kind of incredible. But writing these huge reviews that are just beautiful. And I'm like, where is this going? Some of these are better than the reviews of the shows in the paper. So that was sort of the idea of it. In practice, some of the things we wanted to do, like share perspectives, things like that got very expensive, very fast. And so I decided to focus on, we had a donor, friends of Chicago's neighborhood theaters, who's still supporting us now as we're in this transition. But we decided to focus on just like training. Training and like getting a core group of writers. So we have about 11 people now. And I believe we're still somewhere in terms of like 70% of people of color, like you have multiple fans, artists, but it's not really like an intentional thing. It's just because me and the person who founded it are both like very young folks. These are the people that were trying to pull in. But I do think about having different perspectives, because shows are so culturally specific, and that was something that kept happening, was like, I'm trying to go and review something that is Latinx or Middle Eastern specificity, cultural specificity. And I'm writing as though I'm a guest. It's not impossible to write about those things. I want to also dispel that myth. But you do have to write about it in a certain way with a certain kind of like respect and education if you're not of a culture. And so it was really nice to be able to start sending people and be like, oh, hey, like, you're from Guinea or you're from, you know, El Salvador or you're from, you know, like this play happens to be about that thing. And that's been a real gift. That's amazing, yeah. That's kind of, it's a big thing. So if there's any questions inside of that, please direct me. Yeah, well, I'm sure there will be. Usually how this works is at the end, there'll be a lot of Facebook comments and questions. And I'll jump on and answer what I can and throw the other ones to you if you have further moments. I mean, what also you're doing though is you're training audiences and expanding the audience experience to understand their own feelings about a show. If you didn't get a show, you didn't like it, being able to interrogate your own reaction and go, well, did you not like it because you didn't recognize anyone? If it was like you, did it not, was it politically hard or are you just scared? It makes you not respond to that thing. That's a thank you for pointing that out. That is a huge piece of what we do. The bias alerts and just like, who is this person talking? Cause like if I go, let's see, I don't want to, I always pull this example out and I like shot too much, but I'm gonna do it too anyway. Major Barbara, I go review Major Barbara. Like I think it's safe to say, maybe this isn't their play, you know? Maybe I'll go check it out anyway, cause looking at their resume, I see this person loves like, you know, into Jackie Shange and Marcus Gargely and Experiments of the Year, whatever. But it's nice to have that offset of like talking to your friend. Like, you know, your friends set of tastes so you don't get defensive about their opinion. It's not objective, you know, they are. Well, it's so, it's so interesting and it might be interesting too, to think about for those folks out there thinking, how do I plug in to a theater career now and early on, whether a pandemic or not. Criticism, thoughtful criticism and writing pieces about shows that you really love or trying to understand and articulate the ones that you don't in a respectful way. That's really good training and it's really good for the field, I think. I mean, more people talking about, you know, with respect and, you know, intelligent criticism is nothing but good news for the theater. So I wonder if you have any advice or whatever for folks maybe thinking about that kind of trajectory or career. I love that. Yeah, I think learning how to articulate your opinion is one of the most important things I think a young artist can do. Like in the world ever. I do, I really do. Because I don't think that I would have had nearly as many of the artistic opportunities that I do if people did not have a clear avenue to how I think and how I feel in my practice. I do think that's true. Because it allows people to go and say, I believe in what this person wants to achieve in the world. Which I think is important. So I would say, yeah, learn English Clark. I was remembering that story. Learn English Clark is very after I understudied mid-summer night's dream. With her and I went on for like, for Erika Changsha, she's a talented, talented woman. I can't even call her to do a session too. She's amazing. But she's on your court, she's incredible. But I was understudying her and I wrote an essay about being an understudy. And Lauren was like, you know, people can't do that. Like you should continue to do that. You should continue to write and talk about your art. That's gonna be the most valuable thing you ever do. And like, I just occasionally would be like, I'm gonna plunk an essay about this show I did. Because Lauren told me to keep writing. It was just that for like three years, four years. Like, I love it. But I just think like, she knew then. Yeah, that's the most important thing you will ever do. And I think it's true, being able to talk about your practice, because you won't always get to show what you can do. That won't always happen. Being able to write about something and write a letter to someone. I also watch this thing about Proenza Shuler, became Proenza Shuler by writing a heartfelt note to Anna Wintour in a plane. So, it takes a lot more. It does. And I do think, I mean, what a great exercise for those out there thinking of kind of what can I do now? In this strange place you're in, articulate the strange place. Articulate all the things. Get good at articulating it. Because if you're a director, I'm sure I'd love to hear how that you speak to that. You're leading a room. You're leading a thing, a piece of art in its creation. And you need to be able to articulate that. And to be able to articulate it with passion and all the things. But also if you're taking on a classic work, articulating why this play now? Why are we doing this now? This play was written hundreds of years ago. What the hell is the point? Well, there is a point. And if you can say it clearly and passionately, it's certainly for a dramaturg. How do you talk even one-to-one? Great dramaturgs, the ones that I've worked with at least have been able to speak to me and to know me, but also be able to bring themselves fully to the conversation about, why is this play not working? Why is this act feel slow? What have you really said the thing you wanna say? I know you, Lauren. And I think you're holding back this or that. So it seems like it all goes back to that same route of being able to articulate this strange ephemeral thing, this art, but it moves and it changes and it is reborn. And I think that certainly- Well, even if you think about something, talking about like playwright, dramaturgian, directing and like bringing it into that sphere. Cause I think one of the things about rescripted is like we're not articulating it from a place of expertise, but a place of invitation. And I think that that is the thing that intersects with my creative life a lot. Cause I think a good dramaturg knows how to make great invitation, you know? It's not about like this is what you need to do, but it's like, what if it was this? Or have you thought about this? Or do you feel really tied to that? Or like whatever that invitation is from a director or a dramaturg is very similar to the critical invitation of, well, I think this, but maybe you think something else or maybe it'll be for cat lovers or maybe it'll be for whoever, you know, but yeah. Yeah, that's great. I was just actually emailing back with Erica Tung-Shook and she used a word to describe a new thing, new piece of art as a gift. We would, you know, we would want you to work with this and, you know, write something as a gift. And it's such a beautiful way kind of responding to your word and invitation, thinking about this space of giving and generosity because we are making a thing that doesn't work if we're not all there generously. And I'm sure you get in rooms like I have where it doesn't feel very generous. And then of course the art just is brittle and weird and unfulfilled and all the things, but coming to it with everyone being fully invited and offering things as gifts and as you said, invitation. And it just, it seems like the right way to think about even going to a play as an audience member. Yeah, yeah. I mean, well, there's something, you know, about the transaction I think and the high level of transaction that turns it from an invitation to an exchange. You know what I mean? Like, because there's something different about going to see like for your cheap theater, where you're like, all right, let's be cool. Like, or you can still like it, even if it wasn't perfect or like, it just takes that element of perfect entertainment out of it. I think when the ticket pricing can be at a certain level. And I know it's not possible for everybody right now, but it's something I think about a lot because theater in other countries does not always cost that much. Even when it does, there's a way for it not to, you know? Yeah. Yeah, having done some work in London, it is different. Exactly, London and Ireland for me. Like it's, yeah, even like very expensive things. I mean, I could get into, remember I got into cabaret, I literally had gold my way into a show. I got into a professional house, like one of our like Broadway and Chicago tech places, I was like, listen, I need to see this production of cabaret. I have exactly 17 euros. I took up the 85 beer, I was like, hit me up, help me out, like it was so funny. That's awesome. And he was like, okay, sure. And some lady was like, I have 10, here you go. And I was like, great, perfect. Aw, there you go, theater. Can you talk about, what did I want to talk to you about? Oh, can I get a picture? Oh, thanks. Oh yeah, your piece that you just, the kind of question about institutions and kind of in this moment investigating that, would you kind of talk about that a little bit? Maybe tell people what it was about and, you know. Oh, okay, yeah, what it was about, oh boy. Okay, sorry. It was about a lot of things. Okay, go ahead. But my, yeah, this latest piece, institutions do not define our art. I think, I have to preface by saying I'm a highly institutional person. That's why I wrote it, right? Like my whole life, every school, I've done so many fellowships, they have architected my theatrical experience. However, I was like, I think that the thing that is happening right now, you know, as we're looking to these institutions to like save us in a way that I think is both unrealistic and slightly unfair. Like we've been asked to put a lot of energy into these institutions and to that reason, I think it's fair to ask. However, I think the core issue is that we've set ourselves up to operate only in these institutions in the first place. I made a comparison to colonialization. I'm not an expert in decolonial work. I know that people who do that work, they taggously. But something that did seem obvious to me is the idea of land and colony. And there's a couple of theaters here who are building huge buildings and just hearing the diversity of ways in which they talk about them has been very enlightening in terms of like why somebody would want to like plant a thing. And that idea of permanence, of shelter, of safety, of we will be seen as valued because look at the exterior of the facade, right? And these are not ideas that come just from theater makers. This is like what they're being told they need to do to survive. So there's no judgment in that. I think that's communicated from capitalism as a whole. But it's just one of the many ways that we don't see how our nonprofit industry really mimics the for-profit industry and that like the land has become more important than the thing being made inside of it. It started as a joke, it's so bad. But it started as a joke about like, well, if we're paying rent on these theaters and you're not paying me to pay rent in my house, does that mean that this is gonna be emergency housing? If things really go down? Or like, what is the point, you know? Because, and I think it's just being from the Bay Area. Like I do not understand the idea of not helping people pay rent or like thinking it's okay if people might maybe unhoused is really proud to be. So, you know. But it's a great point. I mean, and it does, I mean, it made me think a lot of things, partly like where the money is going. Those who are like, how do I help? And absolutely donate to the theaters, but also ask the theaters, what are they doing for the artists? And a lot of them, you know, or if you know an artist, like Venmo is a thing. You can just shoot him some money, if you want, ask if they need help. Well, you're making a great point actually, because I was thinking about just like articulation, going back to the original thing of how to articulate something. I think the thing that I see, and again, I say these things as blanket because I've done so many internships, I feel safe that I'm not talking about anyone institution. Hello, all my former bosses, I love you so much. But thinking about articulation in those moments, right? Like if I'm sitting there with the Fortune 500 dude and he's like, listen, yeah, I get the building, but like why do you need nine people to staff it? Could you knock if I was six? Like that's just how they're thinking. That's not like anything personal. That's just like that straight up Amazon mindset of like, I don't understand why people matter. And you have to turn the entire ship around. And I've seen some leaders do it really well. And I've seen some leaders, I think it's okay to have donors who don't believe people are humans and watch those things blow up after a while. But being able to like believe that, you know, or articulate why the people are important. Because a lot of times I think people buckle and they say, oh, well, the program is the thing and now I have to use some of that staff it though. And so that secondary thing is now the pattern that we find ourselves in while we're in crisis in terms of what to save. It's the land and not the people. Yeah, yeah. And I mean, I think like the bill, the theater building is the crucible. But if there's nothing happening in the building, the crucible is like a bucket. That's exactly right. It means nothing about the people in it. Yeah, nothing without the art, the people and trying to make sure that audiences, donors, everyone involved in the kind of artistic ecosystem of a community realizes everyone else's place in that system. And yes, we need money and yes, we need support and yes, we need audience. But that audience is there to put all of the, needs the artists and the artists need the designers and the designers and yes, we need the people to clean the bathrooms and to open and to sell tickets and to all of it. I mean, it's all of a piece. And if we just turn to let's just save the institution, the institution has to take it on itself or we have to hold the institutions accountable to save. Okay, well, if we're putting money into you, you've got to tell us where you're putting it back into that ecosystem. So it doesn't just like, well, we saved the building. The building's there. It's standing. My shoulder's gonna work in it. My shoulder and I don't understand. But like, I really am just like, I do not understand in this moment in particular because housing to me, that is the safety of the artists who will all go on to do other things, who will build other things because our greatest resource is ourselves and is our minds. And I just worry about the disconnect from that. And I don't think there's entirely a disconnect to the thing. Right. I think leaders know that. I think they are just frustrated by the pressure on them to value a staff over artists. And I speak as staff. You know what I mean? Like I'm not trying to, you know? Yeah, yeah. But like being on both sides of this equation, like you are forced to do a type of valuing that goes against the nature of most people who enter this profession. Yeah, I think that's right. Thank you for that. Let's back up for a second and talk about. So all of this started as new plays. Like how do we talk about playwriting and new plays? And honoring the fact that it's a little weird to talk about making a play now, but it also maybe is the perfect time for some of us. So when you start as a theater maker, how do you start the process of a new, new, new play? Like new, premiere. What are the steps? What are the kind of things that you now know? Okay, well, I have to ask the writer this thing or you know, what are the kind of definite you got to do this to make sure you're on the same page? Or like how did that start for you? What is that relationship? Kind of the relation with the writer began. That's fun. Okay, so I am working on a new play. And I have been like two years. So I've been working with Brynn Frouwenhofer. And she's incredible. She's so smart. But it's a play called Pro Am, short for professional amateur about the amateur porn industry. Oh, okay. Oh yeah. And which in this moment of like everyone interacting with cameras is like really wild to work on. But we started that play from the first page, the company side show, the refreshments initiative you meet on pitch, which I think is really incredible. That's cool. Yeah, there's not a lot of places that are like, okay, cool, let's say, yeah, you know, I mean, it's a commission, but to do it at this type of rate. And so we got together and I was just like, so why? You know what I mean? I think that is always the thing. What is the, what drove you to write this story? What's the crucible question? I love that word. Because and what's your source material? Cause I feel like there's always a thing, right? In someone's brain that they're thinking about something that they're complimenting, something they're pushing against, something that they saw that can help kind of root that thing. And then you can build a language of research together from that one thing. So ours is like Rashida Jones's Hot Girls Wanted which is kind of the place we spiraled out from in terms of approaching program. And that was something that Bryn came with and was already told me and hammered with. And from there, we found like a ton of other material and I'm the director in that process. So it is so different. But I didn't have a drama tour until about three months in. So like the first pages, you know, were really just us sitting there and going, what do you want this person to do? What do you want this person to learn? Where do you want this person to go at the end of the play? Where do they come from? You know, just all those little questions. But it's really about getting to your playwright, I think, more than anything. Because the way that their brain works and the types of twists and turns they want to take, like the more you can predict what kind of suggestion might be useful, like Bryn, for example, is what I like to refer to technically as a sick nasty playwright. Like, you know, but she writes gross stuff so well, like it's kind of like a thing. And so we were talking about this moment in the play and I was like, well, this is a comedy, I know, but looking at all your other material, like this is the thing you have and maybe this is a place to deploy that tool and it's been a really exciting new frontier. So I think getting to know just how they're thinking what they love becomes how you actually manage to play. I think more so sometimes than the facts and the figures. Awesome. And when you hit those moments for a writer, perhaps there is some openness to the script. Like, it's a transition or it's a scene that has a lot of physicality to it and less kind of textual. How do you, I mean, of course it requires a lot of communication between you and the writer. Have you ever had those experiences of kind of like, I'm gonna need to direct this moment. Like interpret other moments but like direct, you know what I mean? Yeah, you got, honestly, not since I was very young and I think part of that is the articulation and trust because the trust, it's like, if you know me and you know what I'm gonna do and I know you and I know what you wanna do and like, you know the scope of what I'm probably gonna do. Yeah. And a playwright I think is really smart about how he interviews directors is Terry Gaston. Oh yeah, Terry Gaston. Yeah, and like we met about one of his plays and there was like a pinnacle question that I wanted to investigate the way that I wanted to show it. That was just not the way the story that Terry was telling in that play. But there was another play but all of those aesthetics and ideas of movement and womanhood specifically were like really dominant. And so he was like, yeah, do this one. Right. Because that is where we will combine, you know? And interesting. Yeah, I mean, and then a couple of other interviews we've kind of coming back to this like you just have to find your people. You have to find the people that you trust. And I think if you can't like get that trust of like I'm just gonna do this one scene this way and then like you'll see if you hate it then like there's a bigger issue I think. Yeah, I mean, you should try everything. Yeah, like a playwright should never be scared of what you're gonna do with their play. That's kind of, that's a scary place to be in. Yeah, that's exactly right. Yeah, that's a great note for writers to think about too is that it's hard to sometimes describe what a director is seeing and what they can make with something and you just kind of have to make it and see it. Yeah. And then go like, oh yes, definitely. Oh, that's definitely not either way. Great, good to know. Now we know. Yeah, and if you know you're the kind of playwright who like is gonna have that moment then you have your dramaturge. You know what I mean? And that person can be there for those three days of rehearsal. Cause I do tell, I mean, I'm very upfront about like this is what I'm gonna mess up the play. It won't have to be here or not. But that's what's gonna be happening. Like, so this is not what it's gonna be. But this is all the stuff I have to throw against the walls and you may or may not wanna witness that. Yeah, right. It's an open room, open room, however. Air warning. And I think if you're just clear about it, you know, then it's fine. It's only when you're up there with soft puppets and they're like, this is Shakespeare. That you're like, no, this is a workshop. I swear. Oh, I love it. And so talk to me about coming from a place of classical theater and kind of, I don't know, what do you carry stuff with you into this new clay world that you learn from classics? Is it kind of totally different? How does that, how do you balance that? Yeah, I think so, so classically I round high school when I started realizing I wasn't gonna do opera forever. I had a great teacher who had me audition for the British American Drama Academy's youth program. So that was like my crash course to Shakespeare was like three weeks with just amazing dramaturgs and like Fiona Shaw and like it was wild. So bringing that work back, I started working at Cal Shakes and that's why I started working on mid-summer and working in artistic there. And I think one of the things about working at a class of theater, like California Shakespeare Theater is it's always about what was the revolutionary thing this piece was doing in the first place rather than what does it have to teach us about the now? That's always a question. But I think if you can tap into, this thing was once revolutionary, this thing was once saying something new, this thing was once talking about something important, then you can tap into the now in a more efficient way. I think that is also what I take from a lot of classic writers is their ability to be like, well, this is what I'm doing now because like there wasn't as much theater happening, right? So that breaking of form, like Shakespeare making up words, like I think playwrights should still be able to take those kinds of liberties of like, if you wanna have a subplot, if you wanna do something, you know, totally wild, something like brother size, right? Yeah, right, right. Is a new classic play because it's experimenting with form in ways that we haven't really seen, but it's also using like poetry and African imagery and classical things. But it's all a vehicle for something in the now, even though it's living very firmly in what was still revolutionary about that first queer relationship in African history. That's so great. Because what that, I hope challenges writers to do is to be ambitious and to not necessarily always fall back to the living room plays on a couch where people are breaking up. Like can we talk big somatic play? Like what is Shakespeare now? It's about, you know, allegiance and life and death and big, big stakes. And it's not like everything has to be set in the White House or something to achieve that. You just have to be able to know that the playwriting is still a profession that wants you to think the largest thoughts that fit in the human experience and try to dramatize those things. Yeah, I mean, you think about something like as you like it and something like who do love? Yeah. Like the Tori Hall, right? Yeah. Like it's this big epic about a woman trying to love and having to kind of put the britches on and having to, you know, potion and magic and having to navigate all of these different things that she never has to couple circle. Like how is that different than an ancient classic play? Yeah, it's not. I don't know that it is. So I think we have to admit that some of our things now are going to be classic if they're not already. And it's also another way of speaking to audiences and finding a way to articulate why new plays, why they're essential, why they matter, why we need to keep investing in making them and comparing them to classics helps people go, oh right, oh, yes, Hamlet was a new play once. It's a huge part of what we do at court. Yeah. It is that kind of like who is classic? I mean, that was a big thing about Charlie's decision to do the mousetrap by Agatha Christie, which like maybe is not the most like, oh, like this is a revolutionary play, this one that's been running for a hundred years in England, but the fact is Agatha Christie being a female novelist and playwright is often relegated to like us cuten who done it or whatever. Like she doesn't get Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, like she's not right there with us folks. And so it does mean a lot to put her work alongside, stop please, or alongside, you know, August Wilson, it was. Yeah, that's a fabulous point, right? We kind of, it's the chick flick thing. It's the rom-com thing where it's like, oh, it sells a lot of, sells, people like it. Isn't that cute? Instead of going, this is like a badass way to write a play that everyone fricking loves. How is that not genius? How is that not, you know, I kind of... Nora Tatone, our dramaturg and residents there and Charlie are both very like, who are the fem writers that we have not? Ken and I, Carol Churchill has come up in that conversation a lot, right? Like, who are the spokes? Yeah, that's so amazing. What are the things that make you love theater? Why do you love doing this? Why do you, like, what gets you like super excited about it? Are you like an opening night person? Or are you like, oh, I hate opening nights or first day of rehearsal? Or are you like, just show me the set design, show me costumes, you know? Fun. First production meeting. I really love that's one of my favorite things. Yeah, it looks like that time where we all get all the smart people together and they start telling me all the things. Because also I think when you have great designers and you've done a lot of prep work, you're like, wow, you just like made a whole show. Like, you know you had those conversations but it feels like they went away and just made it without you. Yeah, right? Yeah. It's really cool to see all the things that were ideas be some kind of real. And even just by being another person, they're real, you know? And then, yeah, first rehearsal. I do love an open room and I love the celebratory pieces. So, yeah, first rehearsal, design run, first preview and like opening. I do love those benchmarks of sharing very very much. I try to have open rooms the whole time for that reason, just because the congregating and the inquiring, the rehearsal is my favorite part. I think I do love the opening showmanship pieces of it because that's like who I am as a person and things I enjoy. But it's about the art making. It really is just the getting together and agreeing to investigate a specific question. The fact that people can do that and can get together and agree to build a world is the most exciting thing about theater because I've never understood why it doesn't translate to like the world. Like if we can build the perfect world on stage, why do we not think we have the power to do that in our own lives? That's so great. I think that's the thing that's always trying to remind us of. Show it, make it. We can show it and make it in the theater. How does that change? How you, if you see it somewhere, oh, well, maybe that's a thing that could actually be non-fiction. Hi, that's a dream. That is the dream. What are your thoughts about like, how do we, this is a massive question. Just throwing it out there in the last like 10 minutes of our talk. But I mean, I think what's on my mind these days because we don't have the traditional avenues for making theater and gathering and the traditional audience experience. Maybe that's good. How do we investigate and how do we continue to interrogate the way theater was? So that when we come back, we have enough ideas of going cool. I love that about how we used to do it, but all of this can maybe not be how we do it anymore. Have you had time to think about that or do you ponder, let your mind wander? Like if we could just go bloop, all right, theater is all tickets are $15 and I don't know what are the ways that we can make it more. Of course I'm thinking more equitable and representative and welcoming across society, all of the different ways. And how do you, how does that sit in your brain these days? I think as scary as it is, right? Like being a person who seeks this kind of permanent employment myself. So again, right? I would like to see artistic leaders and executive leaders, which are never part of that conversation, have a more limited term. Oh, interesting. Yeah, I'd like to see like 10 years somewhere in there because I think at this point, I feel like I've met enough artistic directors who are seeking mobility. Like they get tied into a community, they get tied into financial dependency on an institution and because their skills are so specialized, unless they happen to like get like, I don't know the KC rep or the, you know, Louisville job, like they don't get to move and expand their career because they're seen both as disloyal to their institution and also like, you know, there's just a weird thing of like you have to move over here and that's where you're gonna stay. And I don't think it really serves us in terms of moving forward. I think I say that too, because as a person who has been in training, you know, from the decade now, there does come a point of like looking at the field, I don't see any space, you know, like I don't actually know unless someone retires or something unfortunate happens, like where I would possibly go, apart from like 10 open decisions that I may or may not be qualified for at any given time. So I would like to see more intention put towards giving young leaders of color, like autonomy and roles in these theaters that don't feel, I'm gonna say something risky, because it's quarantine. Because you always do. You're the person we want you to be like. I knew this was gonna happen. Boom, boom. But I do think that like there's a tendency to bring in people of color in a safe position, whatever that means, right? Where they should have agency, but really they're just executing. Interesting, yeah. Yeah, and I don't think that it's supposed to be that, right? I don't think that the people creating these positions have that attention actually. But I think because the seats are created not with the idea of giving up power, but with the idea of securing power by saying, like, hey, well, I'm training this person and therefore that means they should be in this job, right? There's something to that. That if we don't have an effective pipeline, like there's nothing wrong with that in terms of a gestation period of training. But I think once we're asking people to stay in that type of place for more than three to five years, we're starting to quench their professional growth. So I'm just looking for more turnover, more mobility, more job opportunity. And I'm really inspired by Theater First in Berkeley. Yeah, John Tracy, shout out, Theater First. I love John Tracy so much. And I just think his minimum wage models and things he's trying to do to get people minimum wage, not just for being part of the show, but even callbacks and things like that. For those of you out there, he was paying actors for their time coming to audition. Isn't that incredible? Like, it sounds like, oh, that doesn't make any sense. And you're like, no, that is time and preparation and it is their art form. And like, of course, that's, yeah. That's all I have time, you know? Like, I was an actor my whole life audition for a TV show. I was like, damn, that was about 24 hours, right? And we just like getting these sides the day before and like you doing the thing and getting dressed and you know, it's work. So it's nice to be paid for that time, you know? Yeah, and it is bold. And it is something that you kind of say and then it's obvious and then it just becomes more and more obvious. And it's something now that we can just try to budget for and just go like, yeah, no, we need to, that's what that money is for. I have a lot of questions, like not knowing enoughness. No, you're great. Not knowing enough about the funding tree, like in this specific way, but I have a lot of questions about why not-for-profit works for us. A lot of questions. I just don't, I mean, we operate like for-profit businesses and we sell something. I don't know a lot of other non-profits that sell stuff as their core thing. So like unless, because I would like to really see theaters shift more to like a 50-50 think tank performance situation. I don't think we should have to produce more than two shows a year. Yeah. So. Wow. That's amazing. I love those ideas. So fascinating. Do you have like a hot take on all the streaming stuff or you just like, don't ask me the question. Oh, I, you know, I think, I love it in that I love why people are doing it. You know what I mean? Like I think that the desire to continue to connect and this is definitely the time to like, you know, send people sending me scripts and stuff and I'm like, you know, I'm getting to them on a can but I think it's really awesome that people are taking this time to connect with each other and get to know people and get in the rooms of people that they never would. I think that's a huge gift about this time. Yeah. I worry about it being tied to ideas of relevancy and value. I think once it stops being about your own enjoyment and just sharing, happening to share it with people, that's when we kind of get to a danger zone. You know, it doesn't have to be a product. You don't have to do anything. I think right now, right now, especially as we're not being paid yet, I think we should roll it back because I think one of the ways for this to actually be effective, in my opinion, and we're working on this that we scripted in terms of how to cover this, but as an entertainment industry, not just as a theater industry, I think we could do better at demonstrating how halted we are. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah, because I think, you know, it's easy for muggles, whatever, to be like, oh, well, I didn't go to my neighborhood theater that much. So I guess it'll be okay, you know, but they don't realize that, like, Netflix isn't producing new things and film studios aren't operating and music studios aren't open. And there's about a four month window before, like, we're not gonna have full TV. Yeah. So I'm like, if we could kind of halt, I think as an industry, I think it would amp up our aid more than if we were showing we could do without, to be honest. Yeah, that's fascinating. Or at least be able to talk about it more. That sense of, I think, figuring out a way for streaming not to mean free and Instagram or however it is, it's like there's the YouTube version of just like me being like, and then there's a more like, that's not trying to be the same art, but being able to talk about it as a way of going, what is a way to be excellent and take care of our artists and take care of all the people that go into making art happen. A friend of mine had just reached out and we kind of had this like wild brainstorm of like, let's just make a theater thing. And I don't know, I'm finally at the point of going, I'm ready to make a theater thing as opposed to a long time. I was like, I don't know, we can talk about theater, but I'm not touching a creative writing project. It was just starting to get over into that new reality. But and the first thing I thought of because I had that great conversation with Martin Green Rogers about being like, let's bring in a dramaturg now. Like let's pay, let's find a way to pay the people, even if it's just a little thing, who knows what it is? We're like, paying each other and paying a dramaturg and playing a director and like, what happens if we pay what we can? Like it's not like here's a $1,000 commission, but making sure that that is part of the conversation. And I've had a couple of younger people really and excitingly reach out about we wanna stream some parts of your plays or whatever, whatever. And that's lovely and I love that instinct. But my challenge to them is always, are you paying people involved? And it is fine not to, but also let's not presume. But even my crochet, man. My crochet. When me and my friend were founding rescripted, I paid her very low hourly rate, but I was like, I don't think that it's a good juju on this project for me to use free labor to cobble it together. Yeah, exactly, everything is paid. Even if theaters are like, would you do a little Instagram story saying, hey, can you support the theater or whatever, whatever? Like that, that could be worth $15, $20, $100. I don't know. Something that's interesting too that you're pointing out is that I wonder if there's something, I wonder to you, I think maybe part of it is that it feels as though it's meant to replace what we were doing. And I don't think that's necessarily possible, but what I do think is exciting is that it is accessible in a way that's never really been. And I would like us to capitalize on that a little bit more because I was thinking about, my partner show Kilm of Paradise was streaming and the amount of friends I had who were like the friendly abled or who just like worked service industry jobs and have never had the time for them to go to a play, you know what I mean? We're able to actually see it. And I just think about how a one-time experiential event in a city where it can snow up to three feet in a day like becomes really inaccessible for folks. And I would love to see us look at how do we start to model accessibility and insights into our work that we can keep doing when this is over, rather than being like how do we put the whole production and what we're doing in the theater into this and make it a financial moon, right? Like maybe it is just about, we're perfecting the accessible part of our programming because we have the time right now. Yeah, that's a great point. That's what's been most exciting to me about this is, let's not talk about it being the same thing because it never can be and never should be the same thing, whatever you see on a screen and in real life. But I think of when I had my kids and being up at three in the morning and then like midnight and three and six and for nursing and realizing I'm never gonna, I'm not gonna see a play ever again. I've never, I felt so alone. And so that is my tiny version of that. And of course that was temporal and I knew I would gradually get back into the world. But if I at that time could stream my local play or my friends play or a play from across the world to just make me, it still gives you a thing, theater on screen, whether it's a monologue or a production that's designed for that or something that is a replication, it still does work, it's good work to put art out there in that way and to make it as accessible as possible. To your point, people who have a lot of jobs or jobs that don't fit nicely in the American work hour, which is a privilege in and of itself to be able to go home at five and have dinner with the families. Anyway. Baseball games started at three and we televised them so people could catch up when they get home at five. I feel like sport is the thing of going, wow, if only we had a massive example of a live event that is totally obviously streamed. Oh, all our sports. Wrestling is the closest thing to what we do. They do it this fine. For years and years and years, they've live broadcasted for free. Every single day they're done. And Deep Tran made the point when I interviewed her last week where she was like, you know why people know about Broadway? It's the Tonys, which is a streamed event. Yeah. So like putting it out there, making it feel like something that you know and you welcome and that it's for you and you're supposed to know about it and want it. Anyway. I think it can be good. You've got to know about New York to work. Like they hit a point where I was like, man, I got to go once a year and see shows to be an adult in this industry. And like before that, you know, I was doing the like Tony clips and who won this, you know, doing all the like research and the numbers and the, you know, you do have to know and it's nice that it's easy to know. Yeah. And I'll pay for it. I'm happy to pay for it. Sign me up for a digital subscription to every theater in this country. I am in it. The Broadway.com, the like the HD or whatever. The Broadway HD, yeah. We started clocking around there and it's got some cool stuff. It is. Yeah. It's great. Anyway, on that note, as we are streaming, we're almost at the end of our hour. This has been such a joy. Thank you so much, Regina. Thank you. It's been great. Your time and your wisdom. As usual, I'll get on the Facebook post and answer some questions and maybe I can convince Regina to join us and share more wisdom for those of you who have questions out there. Thank you so much. Howl around for broadcasting this as well. And I hope y'all are safe, safe and sane. Thank you.