 We can win this war. We can win this war? OK, well joining us from Orlando, Florida is the man in that clip, Anthony Dream Johnson, who says he wants to abolish feminism and make women great again. No, but it also says, with a trademark, make women great again. Four women, always great. Make women great again. But they're going to do a three-day seminar for women led by all men. In mansplaining news, a three-day conference for women led by men, hopes to make women great again. How the 22 convention will make you the greatest you ever. Raise your femininity by 500%. First of all, how is a man supposed to tell a woman how to be the ultimate woman? A woman needs to be taught how to be great again. Not my words. We do. How to land a husband. How to lose weight. How to pump out a bunch of kids. Why do men think they need to fix the problems of women? Well, it says the world's ultimate event for women. In Orlando, Florida, that's going to be the scene of the crime. It's mansplaining platoosa. And say no to the toxic, bullying, feminist dogma. Taught by men to make women great again. Taking the stage now is the founder of the 22 convention. You're in for a treat, Mr. Anthony Dream Johnson. Anthony Dream Johnson. The first president of the Manosphere. It's run by all men, which promises to, quote, make women great again. This course is guaranteed to raise your femininity by 500%. Together, we will make women great again. Excuse me, I'm mansplaining here. She said there's nothing wrong with that. Welcome back to the 22 convention 2020 of Orlando, Florida, being held for the first time ever at 21 Summit. Our next speaker is a returning speaker from the 21 convention for men. He's spoken there twice now, over the past couple of years here at the event, right here in Orlando, Florida. He's been a dating coach for men for over half a decade. And let's be one of his first times ever talking and coaching women live on the fly here. It's going to be awesome. He's actually the world's leading expert on hypergamy. He's got baby cooking in the back, literally. Without further ado, please let me welcome Pat Stebbin, upcoming dad. Thank you, Nathan. So you ladies today have had a lot of really, really good advice, very practical advice about how to be feminine women, how to be in relationships with men, and how to help cultivate intimacy. I haven't watched all the presentations. I'm sure there's been a lot about beautifying yourself and cooking, et cetera, things that are going to make a man feel more in love with you and feel more connected to you. But I want to go a little bit deeper today. I want to do some more esoteric, even, topics here. I want to talk about masculine and feminine energy and how this works. So when we think about masculine and feminine energy, what are some words that come to mind? Masculine. So masculine energy, we have maybe words like strength. I'm going to put an asterisk next to this one. Strength. Order, right? And so the antonym of that would be chaos, right? Wait, wait, wait, wait. You guys got to wait because this is going to get really interesting. It's going to get really interesting. OK, so we have more directive, let's say. And you can have more, maybe, surrendering. Leadership, sure. The grumbling is already beginning. You don't even know what the speech is about. OK, leadership. And we'll put follower. I'm putting an asterisk here. Don't worry, guys. Don't worry, I'm putting an asterisk here. OK, we have civilization, maybe, versus nature. You have maybe seduction, seductive, right? Formlessness. This would maybe be dominance, right? You could say dark and light. That's an interesting one. Now, we do this list, and the immediate reaction here is, well, fuck this, right? Why does the feminine get all these negative traits? Personally, I don't consider these necessarily negative traits. And I'm not even, you know. But we have a program here where we believe both men and women, we believe that masculine traits are better than feminine traits. And so we have to ask ourselves, why has this occurred? Particularly among women. Women get very, very defensive when they see a lot of these words. It creates some sort of trigger. And so for us to understand this, we have to go towards, you know, you see in society today, you see that there's been a move from women towards more of these traits, and correlatively to a degree, a move of men towards these. And we've had a shift in some of the structure of society as a result of this. So to understand this movement towards masculine, we have to talk about distortions. So I don't know, does this thing flip? This thing? Let's just erase this. Distortions, what are distortions when it comes to energy? So let's talk about a masculine distortion. So when we think about masculine energy as an ideal, masculine energy is an aligning force. It's a force towards truth. It says, I love you, and here's how you can become better. But what happens to masculine energy when it gets distorted? We have things like fear and control enter the picture. And so instead of it being a force of saying that, I love you, and here's how I'm going to help guide you or mentor you, it becomes a force for control and says, why did you mess this up? You screwed this thing up. It becomes overbearing. It has arbitrary rules, and it wants to put the foot on the neck, so to speak, of both children and women very often. And so when people talk about, when people hear the word patriarchy or whether they hear the word even masculinity, they associate it with this distortion. And a lot of women have a very strong trigger around this. It's this sort of bad father. You know, there's the famous videos like years back, and it was the one, I don't know if you guys are familiar with it, but it has the, the girl has like a nail in her head, and the guy is, and she's like, I don't just have such a bad headache, I don't know what's going on. And the guy's like, well, you have a nail in your head. She's like, you're just not listening, right? Like I got this, like it just, it really, really hurts and it really sucks, and he's like, well yeah, like we should take the nail out of your head. And this is like an example of sort of how the masculine thinks, thinks in terms of solving problems. And when it becomes distorted, it becomes based on ego and control, because there's a lot of fear that become control freaks. To understand how this occurred, I'm not sure that it was always this way. I'm not sure, I mean that, I don't know. But we can certainly say that since the industrial revolution and moving through the world wars, that men began to accumulate an enormous amount of emotional pain. So you had the industrial revolution, you had men taken away from their families at the work in really crappy conditions. They didn't have the opportunity to mentor their children or see their children. Their children were mostly raised by women, raised in public education. And then wars broke out. And men who up until this point were maybe still okay, feeling okay, because well, they had communities of men and they thought well now's an opportunity for me to show glory. And we're gonna talk about those themes with men in a little bit. But then they're in a mechanized war. Where there's not a lot of opportunity for individual prowess when you're just getting shelled on all the time. And this happened in World War I and then it happened again in World War II, where you had in many times tens of thousands of men dying every day. And so they saw very awful things, but they were told by society that they can't do anything with these emotions. They have to play this role. One of the things that we see with distortions is that there's a lot of role playing. And so a lot of this pain was buried. And so we look at the 1950s and we see like an idealization. You have the father, a lot of people idealize it. Some despise it. But let's talk about this, why this exists. You have a lot of, you have these men who you had on paper a great family life, I suppose you could say. But then behind the scenes, the guy had the job and everything. He went to an office. Woman stayed at home, cooked, cleaned. Had everything ready for him when he came home. Three kids, a dog, white picket fence. So why did that end though? Like whenever something like this ends, you have to ask yourself why it occurred. There's a valium epidemic in the 1950s and 1960s with housewives. And while I think that we've seen some presentations and I actually wholeheartedly agree, there's been psychological operations to destroy families. This is not like a thing that just came out of the ether. But for an operation like that to succeed, there has to be fallow ground for it to lie on. And the reality is that people were really fed up of living under the distorted masculine. Even with all the prosperity, especially with all the prosperity. Because then there was no excuse to have to tolerate it anymore. And so you had men, young men, when they got sent to Vietnam, a war that they didn't feel was aligned with truth. And they sort of callousness in which the war was operated. You had the same thing with a lot of women feeling that they have to be under men who are like this. And so there's been a wholesale rejection of distorted masculine. But here's the funny thing. Is that women, and as your response to the beginning stages here, you look at those terms, there's an association that I'm powerlessness unless I'm masculine. And so women began to move towards these masculine traits. They started to drink more, started to smoke, there's that famous smoking advertisement, that feminist smoke cigarettes, right? I don't forget the brand. They decided either not to have children or to have them very, very much on their own terms without the influence of a man. And they decided to have careers so they could develop a sense of their own identity and power. But then they had the problem that men were still doing that and it was difficult to compete with a man's masculinity because while we both have masculine and feminine energy in us, men are overwhelmingly more masculine at their core and women are overwhelmingly more feminine. And so then there started to be more and more of a push for men to in turn move away from the masculine to get in touch with their emotions and to what ultimately became the epidemic of nice guys which were guys who ended up repressing, was getting in touch with their emotions on one hand but in actuality it meant repressing how they felt so as not to rock the boat because any sort of dominance, any sort of aggressive display that they showed was a triggering phenomenon. They themselves didn't want to be associated with the masculine. We're gonna return to the distortion because you saw there's a distortion and then the distortion moved into a depolarization. So we have something that looks like this. This is distorted and this is integrated and then there was a movement over here towards depolarized. So what about distorted feminine? Because every distortion has its counterpart. So distorted masculine is a need for control and trying to force rules and having domination fantasies. Distorted feminine is more of like a smothering influence. It's the dark mother. The feminine at its best says I love you no matter what. I love you exactly as you are. And that's very much of a mothering instinct but when the feminine moves into distortion what happens to it is it starts to smother, it starts to drown an individual. There's a sense in the distorted feminine that there's no identity. The feminine is defined by very often the men around them and you see women like this who will jump from relationship to relationship to relationship. They can't be by themselves because if they're by themselves they cease to exist in a certain sense. And this distortion plays out in parenting as well. Well they can start to smother children. And so these women when they pursue a guy they very, very much want everything from the guy. They need the attention. They need him to be around all the time. They just feel terrible if they don't have anything. But they feel terrible in general. And so the reason that they attract a lot of these guys who are in distorted masculine is because the guys in distorted masculine have their own sort of control needs. They're afraid of having to basically be vulnerable in any way and they're afraid of not having any power. There's actually behind that control there's a need for power. And so to have a weak woman that gives them something to work with. So women were in this distorted state and they were tired of being, a lot of women were tired of being in this distorted state. And so they moved from this towards their own depolarization. They didn't wanna feel like they didn't have any more power over themselves. They didn't wanna feel like other people could control them. Like a man couldn't control them. That was the worst thing in the world. And so they went and they took on this identity. I'm gonna be a boss, I'm gonna be a career woman. I don't need anybody else. They hardened. Obviously, both of these options suck. They both suck because for a woman to feel weak and formless, they have no identity. It's a very disempowering feeling. But when women move here, they have a hard time finding a guy they're interested in. Because they, a lot of the stuff that people in the hemisphere talk about with like alpha fucks, beta bucks or lover, provider, paradigm. A lot of this has to do with the fact that you have a lot of nice guys who don't create any sort of feeling for women, except maybe he'll be there. There's maybe a little bit of comfort to it. Whereas the guys you act masculine are emotionally unavailable. And so women get stuck in this bind between the distorted and the depolarized. They can't find anybody who they're really attracted to. And this is where we're stuck today. We're stuck today in this mess where everybody is romantically dissatisfied. But you can't go back, right? And people wanna go back to this and you just can't go back to the distortion. Because our consciousness at this point has changed. Women aren't gonna go back to that. And frankly, a lot of men aren't gonna go back to that either. Men who have actually developed some degree of emotional awareness, they can't go back to this. Don't talk, don't express any emotion. Stiff upper lip, they can't go back to it. There's a third position and we're gonna talk about that. But before we go into that, I wanna talk a little bit about energy. Now I think that there's gonna be maybe another little reaction here. Are you guys familiar with the yin yang symbol? I'm not gonna spend all the time coloring this one. Anybody who's had a little boy versus a little girl. I mean, I have a little girl in the way. But I've seen my nieces and nephews. You see that little boys have a lot of energy. A lot more energy usually than little girls. They're very disruptive in class. It's one of the reasons we have this completely fucked up policy in school where we give kids meds, boys meds like ADHD medication because they have more energy, they need to run around more. But men have more energy because men on a certain level, you could say esoterically, they represent life force. Men have enormous amounts of energy in them and their big struggle as a man is controlling their energy. This is why men fall prey to things like masturbation and heavy drinking because these are ways to try to get energy out of their body. It's why they have more heart attacks in a certain sense because they're much more strengths. Everybody I think knows some guy who's super tense and sometimes that boils up into rage but there's a lot of energy and it's clogged up in them. For men, what men are looking for on a certain level is death, a release of the energy. So this is why men love war films. It's why men love in some ways the idea of combat, the idea of fighting. Women can't relate to this. They might be okay with a war film but they don't get how men get really engrossed in it. It's because for men war is the competition of life force and the reward for a good competition is death, the release from the burdens. It's why the samurai practice visualizing death over and over again so that they could come to terms with it and integrate it. Another form of death for men because men either wanna go fight in a physical sense. Now today it's a little bit more transmuted. Maybe they wanna start a business. They wanna take over the world, have all this ambition. A lot of really, really big plans come from men who often get together and one of the only times that those plans are interrupted is when a woman comes into the picture because a woman is also death for a man. A woman is a release. Orgasm is a release. In French, literally orgasm is le petit mort, the little death. So for men to be with a woman is an opportunity for them to basically surrender into this bliss of no longer having to perform. And this is one of the reasons why a lot of guys have stayed in their depolarization. Because a man who has a failure to launch, we see tons of boys like this today. It's because it's much better to have maybe mommy or somebody take care of him to just, well I mean he doesn't feel good about this, but part of him embraces the death that is this distorted feminine energy that's on top of them. Women in contrast are death themselves who bring forth life. And this is one of the reasons why you see women are, women have more of an issue cultivating energy rather than controlling it. Women pursue men based on their energy. You see this a lot in relationships. A guy starts to have good stuff going for him and a girl can sense that. That's amazing to me how good women are at sensing energy. They can tell really, really quickly whether a guy's low energy or whether he's high energy and they're just drawn towards him. And so you have women who will meet a guy and maybe this guy's had a couple of good things going for him as confidence is up and she's like, I want him. And a guy who isn't used to controlling his energy, this is his death in a certain sense. Because she will take the energy out of him. We talk about the term succubus. Succubus is an example of, it's an extreme example of feminine energy. But all women to a certain extent are succubi to a man. The flip side is that men want that. And so women will seek out guys who have energy. Women never go for guys. The whole thing about hypergamy, you can distill it down to women will never choose a lower energy guy than a higher energy guy. A guy who has less life force is not going to be chosen by a woman over a guy who has more life force. But the problem is that if a guy doesn't know how to control his energy, the woman can take all of it out of him. Because the guy surrenders into that death. He does not want to continue to produce anything anymore. And then what happens, you have a couple of months of the honeymoon phase, having sex all the time and then eventually she's just starts to feel, I'm not really that interested anymore. And the guy is like, well, what's going on? You know, I thought you were going to continue to do this, but she's kind of, what's going on in the esoteric level is like, there's just not a lot of life force here. Not really so interested in doing this. And so a guy gets off path and then she becomes more dissatisfied. Just realized I put this circle in the wrong part of it. And so yeah, he's deflated and then she leaves usually. Or maybe she'll decide, okay, well, it's time, I'll have some kids with him. But these are the marriages that end in divorce 15, 20 years later. You have a lot of guys who are like, I don't understand, women are terrible, women are dangerous because of all this, they'll just leave you. It's like, well, you lost your life force. You stopped cultivating it. You blame the woman for that, but you wanted that. You wanted to lose all of that. This esoteric stuff is important to understand this energy because a woman who can start to cultivate her own energy is no longer necessarily a burden on a man, so to speak, which brings us to the integrated portion here. Because, and this is something that maybe some guys in the mannish here aren't going to like to hear, but in order to get from here to here, you need to dip your toes in the opposite energy. The issue is that people are stuck here. For a man to become a great man, a great leader, a leader who's aligned with truth and not ego, a leader who is filled with love, he has to experience death on a certain form. He has to come to terms with his energy. He has to know how to release it, which is expressing emotions to a certain extent. Women are very good at expressing emotions, at least they used to be. Because a lot of them have gotten stuck in their depolarization, they also start to have a little bit of a harder time with this. But men tend to have a really hard time. But a man who goes out and experiences the feminine, which is one of the reasons why a man going out in nature, which is something I talked about in my speech yesterday at the 21 convention, so important for a man to be out in nature because nature adds a sort of like a feminine, chaotic test to them. And then they can test their limits, but also open up emotionally. Great example of a guy like this is Brad Pitt and Legends of the Fall. Very, very much in tune with his emotions. There's a wild element to him though. He can go back here and he can become, he becomes a true leader. So if there's a problem, he can meet the problem on an emotional level and also become stronger than this guy who's actually very afraid. This guy's afraid of losing control. This guy is not. He welcomes whatever fate awaits him. And women love these guys. They love them. There's just not a lot of them because we have this sort of idea that we have to get stuck into one of these two things. But I'm talking to women right now. So what does the integrated feminine look like? And this is something that I found very, very difficult for women to accept because women come from this formlessness, this sense of no identity. And then they find out who they are. They find out that they can provide for themselves. They can survive. They don't need a man to survive. They have this strength. But if they want the love that they're looking for in a relationship, they have to surrender once again. And it's very, very difficult to go from helplessness to some semblance of controlled, that you have some control over your life to surrendering and giving up that control in pursuit of love. Now I wanna emphasize that it may seem on the surface, because we have so much associations due to the propaganda we've received around these words. So when we say surrender, oh, that's a negative term. That means that you're weak. No, that's not what it means. The man who surrenders to God is the strongest man, surrenders to his fate. There's a sense of release there. This is a woman surrendering to love. And a woman in this place, I mean, the words that come to mind are captivating and radiant. They don't have to worry about guys going after them because at this point they can actually, they cultivate their own energy, but men give them so much energy, they just throw their energy at them because a woman, an integrated woman, is like a healing presence. She just brings the life of everybody up around them. She's rejuvenating. There's a free flowing-ness to it, whereas the distorted feminine is like a neediness, like guilt and manipulation. This is just, it's love and bliss. And remember, a woman, and this is a trap here, a woman here does not just allow anybody to get to her. Women down here are much more likely to do that, give themselves to any guy. A woman here will do it because she thinks it's empowering. A woman down here will do it because that's the only way she thinks she can get a guy to care about her. A woman up here can say no easily because she's discovered her personal power, but it doesn't mean that she has to be hardened up, doesn't have to have a wall around herself. It's very, very difficult for women to do. And of course, having an integrated man is a major piece of this, right? Woman's more likely to surrender to an integrated man. Women are not going to surrender to a guy who's distorted. They're not gonna do it, a woman like that. Even though those men might be intoxicated by her. Great example is there's something about Mary, like Mary, Cameron Diaz in that film. I mean, she's a successful woman on her own, but she's so feminine. She's intelligent, she's beautiful, she's light. And you see guys are obsessed with her in that film because being around her is like it's like a cool glass of water on a summer afternoon. The big trap for women who are trying to move into this integrated state is that they're not going to surrender to the masculine so long as they associated with this. And what I would suggest here is that women learn to differentiate between the distorted and the integrated masculine. When some guy talks about patriarchy, it's like you women are subhuman and we're gonna control you. Whereas when Anthony or some other guy talks about it, he's talking about healthy leadership. He's talking about leading through truth. He's talking about being a loving father figure. And that's not a negative. In the longer that we associate as a negative, the worst things are gonna get. One of the reasons that a lot of women have a very, very serious hard time with Donald Trump is because they have misunderstandings about masculine energy. They are terrified of masculine energy in general. And so when they see it, they automatically view it as a threat. And if we are gonna have a balanced, healthy relationship between men and women, we have to start getting a little bit more nuanced and sophisticated here. There's a lot of men who do the same thing. I've had to go through massive de-radicalization programs and to a certain extent quarantine programs with guys who cannot differentiate between women who are here and women who are here. They start to view all women are bad, all women are like this. We have to get more precise. But the thing is if we do get more precise and if we start to differentiate, then the relationships we can have are absolutely incredible. Now I'm breaking these into like three different categories, but we also have to be honest, this is like, it's a process. I mean my wife's in the room with me right now. I think that it would be a lie to say that we're both here yet right now. We're like somewhere here. It's a process, we're way further than we were last year. And it's a process of the man becoming more and more emotionally in tune and strong and the woman surrendering more and more into that. But the romance and the intimacy you have is really incredible. So I'm happy to take some questions. If you guys have any questions about this, I know it's a deep topic, but I wanted to explore some of this stuff with you today. So thank you. Ask the questions, let's go. Don't be shy. Hello, is it on? Okay, I would love to hear more about moving to that integrated place. Like how's that done? For a woman? Yeah, well yeah, for a woman, but either way, man or woman. Yeah, yeah. So one piece which I mentioned really briefly was that there needs to be sort of like a forgiveness in a healing process that women have with this energy. Because as long as it's a few days of threat, you're just not gonna surrender to it, right? It's just women aren't gonna do it. And I think that my wife and I, we spent some time in new age circles. I really like new age circles. I think there's a lot of information to be found out there. But even there, I mean they just have a terrible understanding of masculine energy. Like they kind of do like sock puppet masculine energy. I don't know, it's like, it's not the real thing. Because masculine energy can be very terrifying. There's a real passion to it. Like I think Brad Pitt does a very good job of playing a lot of these roles in movies. Like we were watching Troy the other day. I mean as Achilles, you can see a bit of that in his relationship with, I think it's her name's Braceris or something like that. But basically there is a violence for sure to masculinity. But I think we'd be lying, women would be lying to themselves if they said there wasn't some attraction to that, right? There wasn't some attraction to this. So we have to, there's a shadow in everything. So reconciling yourself to maybe if you had some issues from your father or maybe there was some sexual abuse in a past relationship, a lot of women have dated men like this and they've been wounded very badly from men like that. And healing that is a really important portion. Another portion, and you see this happen a bit in the mainstream and I think it's a little, doesn't really get to the heart of it, but I think it can help a bit is allowing yourself to relax more. Like a corporate career in particular is very difficult, makes it very difficult for women to surrender fully. Because the nature of the work is so, puts so much pressure on them to not surrender and to not show weakness. Vulnerability I think is probably a better way to put it. So, but things, going and taking a hot bath, having a glass of wine, spending time with some animals or children and of course other women. I mean a big thing here, like I'm all about mixed spaces. I think it's great. I don't think it's fun to hang out with women, but it's really, really important also that men and women have their separate spaces. Because men in a male space, the masculine energy gets amplified and men can learn from each other. And it's the same thing with women in women's spaces. So I'd also encourage women to spend time with other women, particularly women who are on the same process. Rather than women who are not aware enough and they're still, they wanna be depolarized or they wanna be in their distortion. I'm curious what your background is in your work. What kind of, what's your background? Well, I'm a dating and relationship coach for men. And I've been doing that since 2015. So about a little over five years. Okay. And your background is in psychology or? Self-taught. Self-taught. So I'll just a little very brief backstory for me. I was, I basically got into this stuff over about 12 years ago when I like, I didn't understand women. So I was having a hard time with dating. So I'd just gotten broken out with my first girlfriend. I had no idea how I got into the relationship. And so I went down this path of discovery. I did like, you know, pick up stuff and then kind of came out of that, you know, dated around a lot, got married. And then it's just been this constant process of growing. And so I'm very introspective. And I take a lot of my own experiences and experience of clients. And of course, you know, I try to pick good mentors. I've spent over $100,000 on coaching. I am new to this manosphere and this, in fact, to me, I guess I've been living under a rock or something. I mean, I come here and I just, I'm exposed to all this anger and all this issues that relationships had, which was not, I'm not familiar with. So I am brought here to learn. And I'm very open-minded as far as the learning is concerned. That there's some terms that I have heard that have been coming, that have been thrown at me and I don't understand. So what is the definition of hypergamy and hypogamy? And where is the scientific basis? Is there some sociology research or psychological research? What is all that? Well, you know, as the world's foremost expert on hypergamy, I think I can tell you some good stuff about it. So hypergamy is this concept that women will only date above or maybe you can say above and across from themselves. So it's this idea that guys who are really jaded, they'll do little charts like this. These are all people. I'm not gonna draw the limbs because it just will take too long. And you can say that these are all men and women. I don't know what I'm doing here. These are all men and women. And so you'll have like, this is men, top men, right? This is women. In that you have all these women want this guy and then this woman wants this guy and then these guys don't get anything. And that's a jaded view. I think that's extreme, but it's certainly true that women date across and up. But you know, men also prefer younger, more fertile women. So men and women both have their shadow. Women who are really in this low state are much more driven by hypergamy because they're sort of more as like an unconscious state. Like you're never gonna have a more quote unquote red pill environment than like high school. Is there, do you find that state to be more in a certain generation, a certain age group across certain age group? I mean, I certainly, first of all, I'm the ex-gen. And we are a little bit more productive. So I don't really think that we necessarily need to reach up all the time. But tell me if there's, if you see there's a certain propensity toward that in a younger woman, because, you know, let's face it, the economy's not the same as it was before. So is there a reason why women are reaching up that direction? Well, it's a really good, it's a really good point. So 100% younger women are more hypergamous. I think it has to do partly with the development of the psyche. But at any rate, younger women, by mid-20s it gets muted. But, and you do see phenomenons today as women have sort of moved more into the masculine. You could argue that some of that's flipping. You have more older women going after younger guys than you certainly used to see in the past. I'll also note though, that when we talk about hypergamy and value, if this is flipping, for instance, the woman becomes the bigger provider, very, very often, I mean, you see the women are going for more and more attractive men than was necessarily in the case. So there's still an aspect, like you could measure a man's objective value based on his wealth or status or whatever, but you can also manage it to some extent by his physique. So a really handsome guy who maybe doesn't have as much of a well-paying job, a woman will still look at it in some way as going up. I agree with you though, things are a little bit more muddled, but you can't take this fundamental biological impulse away from women. Women, if part of this is also just a nature of not having as many options. True. And the other, I guess my final question is, again, I think that it's hard to generalize this because I don't really see it across in my area because it's difficult. If all the group of women that I actually usually interact with were reaching up, it's not too much up to reach number one. So you have to find other measures of what ticks you or what moves you in order for you to find a partner. It's no longer reaching up. So, and I understand that the youth is not there yet, so they need to reach up. However, what I know for a fact across generation is that I can tell you in my world, I wrote it in the medical world and what I see with the doctors, the male doctors, is they will not marry a female doctor. Is that hypogamy? They always tend to marry below their level because they need to have that, maybe that masculine control that you're talking about, maybe to feel they're worse, so I don't know what it is. You're asking a really good question. So I'll tackle the doctor one first, then swing back. There is a little bit of this going on, but there's also a lot of this going on on the female side. So a lot of the reason why the guy chooses maybe to marry the nurse instead of the doctor is because the woman, okay, maybe she's, maybe they're at this same sort of level, but then she's less attracted and so she's less feminine in the relationship. And so the relationship is more dissatisfied. I think a lot of these guys have dated girl women who are like their peers and a lot of those women are in this depolarization, especially relative to them. And so it's very unappealing. The other thing I'd say about the sort of, and this is, I mean, I'm just speaking plainly here, part of the reason also why maybe it gets, the hypergamy gets more muted as women get older, I think part of it has to do with the psychological development and realization of other things. But part of it's also that the market doesn't really support them to get the guy at the top. And I think this is a frustrating thing for a lot of women as they get older because they've gotten so much into depolarization. Like I'm successful, you hear this stuff a lot, like I'm super successful, I have a great career, I own a house. Why isn't the guy going for me? Well, what about the men saying that I do not wanna be with a woman who's successful because she thinks so much of herself. I need to stay the man of the house, therefore I am not going, I mean, I think it's a two way street. I don't think it's women that are just saying that. Oh, 100% agree. But this is one of the things, like we have to move here. Yeah. Rather than try to, this is like a fight between here. It's a fight between here. So the guy's like, well, I'd rather get another just, I'd rather get a distorted feminine than this maybe, is what he's saying. And the woman, you know, maybe she's frustrated, she doesn't get a man. You know, people bounce back and forth. And that's why I'm really emphasizing that, like the woman's identity should not be based upon being here. Like it's all about more flow of love in the relationship if she wants to be satisfied. And I think a lot of women figure this out on their own. You hear stories about it, like they become really, really successful in their career and then just gave it up, especially if they have a kid. They're like, I'm done with this. And they're so happy afterwards. Maybe they had to go through the process and they proved to themselves that they could be strong and so they could let go of it. And I'm very much about processes. I mean, I think that it's a leap to tell a guy who's got terrible dynamics with women, like you gotta go here. He doesn't wanna listen to me. That's why I work with certain kind of guys. Like he has to go through a process maybe experiencing some different things and then he's ready to receive a new message. Well, so how do we as both men and women, how do we become integrated? How do you see us as an integrated society? How do you see us as neither reaching up, reaching down or in between, but using other values, other emotion? I guess I am female and I'm emotional, but I mean, how do you see us fixing this problem of being so distorted and moving away from disintegration? It sounds to me like the goal is to become integrated. Is that correct? Well, I mean, if you wanna be happy, right? Correct. So how do we as a society create this happy society, male or female? Well, it's a collective of individual choices. I mean, I think men, like a man can help God in a relationship, a woman towards here, just like a woman can do the same, right? But fundamentally women themselves need to move from here to here. Just like men themselves need to move from here to here. The 21 convention is men moving from here to here for the most part. To a lesser extent, some of this, but it's a lot of this. And so you need to have these communities, you need to talk about it. But I would just offer to women, you don't have to prove that you're strong anymore. Like, we don't need to if the man is strong enough. Well, this is it. I mean, I agree. I agree that the man being strong is an important part of it. But a woman can surrender even before the man comes into the picture. She can be open to love even before he comes into the picture. So, yep. Any other questions? So I guess I'm a little confused on the theory in regards to, like, is there an equivalent of that with men dating up? Does that, what's the... Yeah, in terms of hypergamy, because I think a lot of people in my generation tend to, are more likely to date men at lower income levels or less educated just because of how jobs are working out now. So I'm wondering, one, how are we measuring that? Is attractiveness what puts you up on the scale? Is it income kind of what you can provide or what are the dynamics that we're using to measure that? And then also, is there a male equivalent to, like, dating up, I guess, in this theory? Well, yeah. So, again, when we talk about hypergamy, we're talking about a biological impulse. So it's the woman's desire to get the best that's there, right? Now, if, you know, you have today where a lot of men are falling behind, the best is, you know, there's not a lot of options. So, for women, it's very much often like, okay, well, he's not doing as well as me. I'm maybe I'll value this other trait because, relatively speaking, it's better than nothing. A lot of women just choose nothing and they do casual dating and they're not happy. So women are kind of faced with this, you know, too bad choices. But I guess you don't think that men are also looking to date up? Like, a man will always, you know, be with, yeah. 100%, but men do not date up based on a woman's socioeconomic status. Yeah, but they would date up based on, like, physical attraction because that's more valued in women. Correct, and 100% correct. Well, they would prefer, they would prefer to have a, you know, they're gonna try to get the most beautiful woman in very often as well, you know, with youth connected to that. Now, I think, again, because of the current depolarization, this is a bit more muddled, but if you were to honestly ask men and women, like, what they could get, what they would do if one presented with choices, like, we've seen this play out in multiple experiments, including online. I mean, online dating is very, very bad for men from an options perspective. And I don't really, I'm just trying to be very honest here. Like, the guys that, the women that guys meet online are less attractive by a solid, you know, significant percentage than what they could meet in a trapped in real life. It's true. You know, it's true. And actually, there's a lot of really good data about men, like, you know, this kind of, this is why people, guys put this chart up, because if you look online, like 50% of men online get zero matches. And you can't say that at all for what women experience. The top 10% of men online get so many matches and messages from women. And the bottom 50%, it's like, they're dirt, they don't exist. So we can see in like, when there's other variables taken out of the picture, that this is how people behave. Any other ones? Well, I would say that the main factors online are more, I mean, there's lifestyle calibration, for sure. And you know, there's some points add to profile. But of course, it's looks, right? So guys who look really good get the matches. And we also have to be fair here, that online dating, a lot of women do online dating for a hookup. And so with a woman, a lot of women will sleep with a very attractive guy once and then not feel any kind of need to date him again. But yeah, I mean, fundamentally online, looks are the big paradigm that you're looking at here. Who actually are extremely busy in their work. And you know, that in this world of research or medicine or whatever, that are extremely, the only way they're gonna meet somebody is online. And they're like anything else. I mean, like dating somebody, if you meet somebody in the bar, what's gonna keep you from meeting, you know, somebody who's writing the carousel? Nothing, you don't have a way of preventing that. So what I think that a lot of people that are dating online, that are professional, there's many online, there's like you say Tinder, just slide here, slide there or whatever, I don't know, I've never done that. I've never done that anyway. But there's also, there's quality where you find that if you are sitting in, say, a lab and you're doing your research and the only option you have is to go online, you can create a certain profile and looking for a certain type of person. I don't think you'd necessarily looking for a certain look if unless you're very young, but most of us are not looking to just hook up. And number one, and my second point is I disagree that women look to hook up. I think men look to hook up online because a lot of the women will tell you they don't like to date online because men are not really looking for them. They're looking for a hookup. And that's not what they're looking for. So I think that where you fall online, again, it's a broad spectrum of where you will fall. You may be going online to look for a husband or somebody may be going online to look for the next date, the next person to sleep with. So that's such a broad spectrum. I don't know, we can't put a big blanket in saying that the kind of women online are awful, the kind of men online are this or that and the other. So I like the fact that it's, I mean, it's great that you're a coach but I think you could do your job online as well. I mean, I work with guys online all the time. Exactly. So I mean, I have an enormous amount of clinical experience with it. And so I know that, I mean, obviously, yes, some women are not online to just hook up and they get really dissuaded when guys say, send disgusting messages. Like a lot of apps have tried to be designed to prevent that. But I mean, I also see quite evidently from my practice that what women swipe on online. And maybe they're looking for a relationship but they're still gonna go for the really attractive guy because they feel like, oh, he came into my feed, I can get him. And so online in particular, you have a real distortion of perception where women really think that, oh, these guys are like all about me. Whereas like they've got a lot of options. So, yeah. That's all the time we have. Give it up for Pat Stem. We could win this war. We could win this war. Okay, well, joining us from Orlando, Florida is the man in that clip, Anthony Dream Johnson, who says he wants to abolish feminism and make women great again. No, but it also says, with the trademark, make women great again, always great. Make women great again. But they're gonna do a three day seminar for women led by all men. In mansplaining news, a three day conference for women led by men hopes to make women great again. How the 22 convention will make you the greatest you ever. Raise your femininity by 500%. First of all, how is a man supposed to tell a woman how to be the ultimate woman? A woman needs to be taught how to be great again. Oh, yes, we do. How to land a husband. How to lose weight. How to pump out a bunch of kids. Why do men problems of women? Well, it says the world's ultimate event for women. In Orlando, Florida, that's gonna be the scene of the crime. It's mansplaining Palooza. And say no to the toxic bullying feminist dogma. Taught by men to make women great again. Taking the stage now is the founder of the 22 convention you're in for a treat, Mr. Anthony Dream Johnson. Anthony Dream Johnson. Anthony Dream Johnson. The first president of the Manosphere. It's run by all men, which promises to quote, make women great again. This course is guaranteed to raise your femininity by 500%. Together, we will make women great again. Excuse me, I'm mansplaining here. She said there's nothing wrong.