 Hey Taylor. How's it going? It's going good. It's Friday. How's your Friday looking? It's pretty good. I am kind of a little tired. I didn't sleep super great last night, but like, I don't know, you know, weekend. So I'll sleep in tomorrow. I also don't hear that with a 10 month old baby. Yeah, I've said this to you before, maybe not on a stream, but I always feel really bad complaining about being tired to basically any new parents. So not really fair. Yeah, I probably am less tired than you. So there's there's that. But yeah, I mean, mostly good. It was my birthday yesterday. So I'm kind of, you know, riding off the high of a new birth of a new year and don't have a lot planned this weekend in terms of like big commitments. So I'm very excited to just relax and we're meeting some people. But yeah, it's going to be a good weekend. And today's going to be a good day too. So yeah, and that's the way to, you know, spend these these birthdays nowadays in my opinion. For sure. Sometimes I like to joke about that me being older and that's how it is. But I've always been like that. So yeah, I'm feeling like I'm excited that I get to say like, Oh, it's because I'm, you know, I have an excuse now. Yeah. Right. Instead of just like, I'm lame. Yeah, exactly. So we're here today to talk about the ARC browser. It's been something that I've kind of wanted to talk about and do on a stream for a long time. I didn't really, I would say up until like maybe the last few months, I didn't have a lot interesting to say. And well, maybe I still don't have anything interesting to say, but I definitely have things to say. And and Amanda and I have been talking a lot about as well. And I think there's a lot of there's a lot of facets of things I think are potentially interesting to talk about with ARC. There's it's so it's a new web browser. It's from a startup. And there's a lot of interesting actors at play there in terms of kind of who's behind it. It is it has a lot of interesting ideas in terms of being very different from other web browsers. It has kind of a recent and sort of dire AI pivot. It's really weird actually how they've done this and how they talk about their AI features that they've added in the last few months. I really like the use of the word dire here. I I don't mean that like ingest like they're very like existential about it. Like they have YouTube videos that are like, this is our shot. And if this doesn't work, we'll probably be dead in a year. And I'm like, OK, you know, and I'm like, they're being honest like that, you know, so I'll give them that. But and and there's also just like, I mean, this gets tangled up in the stuff that I love to wax poetic about in terms of just like opinions about how computers are used and all a million things. This is probably going to be some sort of a ramble. And that's OK. I think in something like this. But we're going to try and talk about sort of what ARC browser is. And this is also I feel like a small maybe a small way for us to talk about AI and the web in a way that isn't just talking about AI and the web, because I'm kind of sick of that conversation already. I don't know. Maybe you don't feel that way. But I'm I'm just like a little bit burnt out on it. Yeah. Yeah. No, definitely agree with that. And I think that this particular like subject of ARC browser is really just a gateway to talking about some more of this, but not in that kind of general way that you're talking about of like just like AI in the web. But it helps us kind of understand a little bit more clear, more clearly what some of the consequences can look like. And so I'm excited to kind of jump in to that with you. I have since, you know, Taylor is the one who brought this up to me. I was not familiar with our prior to Taylor talking to me about it. And so I have only looked at it kind of through that lens in a way. But given everything that has been going on in this general sphere, I feel like I have kind of a default skepticism and I wonder if and this this may not even kind of get hashed out in this stream, but I guess just to show everyone where I'm at. I'm like, I wonder if that's justified or if I'm just being a bit of a curmudgeon about things. And so I personally like tend to like avoid using these types of tools just out of like, I don't know if it's I don't have I'm like, it's better to just stay away sometimes. But that might not actually be the case. So I don't know. I'm interested to hear more about it. Yeah, I don't have a lot of great things to say about the AI integrations of ARC, to be honest, bearing or, you know, spoiling that part. We'll we'll we'll show what it does. And but but I will say I do use some AI tools from time to time. I don't really do much with image generation. I don't find those tools like at all useful. And I find them the most detestable in terms of like direct disruption to people in industries I care a lot about. But I will use large language model tools from time to time. And I mostly use them for programming. So I find I probably said this on somewhere on Reclaim TV before. But as someone who like understands programmatic thinking, but doesn't do a lot of actual day to day programming, it's really helpful for me to like be able to say like, write me a PHP function that takes these arguments and returns this. So I can tell it, write me code that works in this way and it will just do it. And that's super great because I have some foundational knowledge, but not a lot, you know, in a way like I think that we can hop off of this soapbox and just a second here and kind of get going with ARC stuff. But I think what I'm realizing is that there can be some hesitancy from especially people like me who are like, well, I don't know how to code. I don't know how to program. You know, I mean, I can do some some stuff, but it's like from someone like me, it's it's more like a means to an end in a very enclosed like enclosed environment. And I think sometimes I'm like, well, I don't want to use something like this because I should just know how to do it. But that's not how programming ever works is the thing. Exactly. Exactly. And so in a way, I do think that that's like really valid way to use these kinds of tools to because at the end of the day, you're just trying to get something done. You're not trying to prove anything. I am I have almost no authority nor enough experience to say this. So someone who has more than me, please correct me if I'm wrong. But my what I have learned about the little bit of program I have done is that that's what programming is, is the means to an end. And you figure out what you need to figure out to do the thing. Having a a, you know, more background in in all of the details and like how a computer works, like a computer science degree will get you further in certain ways, right? But but honestly, not even always. Like, you know, having a computer science degree doesn't mean you know anything necessarily about like web development. You probably did touch that, but like but what I'm saying is like those things are so far apart from each other in terms of like, let's talk about electrons and what is a web browser and how does it work that that those aren't it doesn't mean because you understand one, you understand the other. And I think you can you can make that kind of argument for almost anything, right? Like in in in any field, right? Same thing with us at Reclaim, just because we understand how to like run web servers and help people use cPanel and help people set up WordPress doesn't mean we're like good at web design necessarily. We usually have other people help us with that stuff. They're related, but they're not the same thing, you know, totally. And I think that that applies almost anything. So and I feel like I particularly am like more confident in saying something like that as because of like my degree being in music education, I got that all the time. I still do all the time with music stuff. People will be like, oh, you have a music degree. Like, you know, what do you like? Are you giggling? Are you doing this? I was like, no, I have a music ed degree. I'm actually really not that interested in performance. They're different. I'm more interested in teaching music than I am performing, you know, not that I never perform, but they're related, but different things, you know, is this in all disciplines? I think, yeah, so I have to think it does, right? So I'm sure there's a million examples like that. But anyway, so sorry, side tangent. But, you know, this is going to be side tangent, the stream, to be honest. So I tend to use large language model stuff for light programming tasks. That's what I found it useful for. I don't I haven't found it useful for like general information stuff. I find it really unhelpful for that because it because of the hallucination stuff that can happen. You know, I'll try to give it a query of like, oh, tell me, like, what is the like, I remember when chat GPT first came out, I was like, what is the, you know, oldest team in the NFL? Like I asked those kind of questions, those questions that people like think up but never actually need answered in that way. Do you know what I mean? Like, you see, like, tech reviewers ask these questions of like, what's the that was like, like, like the same things we asked Siri when Siri came out and we're like, well, it knows some things, you know? And it just like completely made up an answer. It was like, I don't know, probably the Packers. And I was like, no, it's I actually know that. Like the Packers are old, but they're not the oldest, you know? And then it did the LLM thing where it's like, oh, I'm sorry, you're correct. It's not the Packers. It's this and it would give me another plausible answer, right? And I was like, got it. So it might have gotten something right here, but I'll never know unless I check by Googling it. So that's not useful to me. So anyway, outside of a novelty, which I think then kind of goes into a little bit of what this discussion will be around. Yeah, rules like arc. Yeah, so I'll share my screen here and we'll we'll talk at first about what arc is and what it looks like and all that stuff. But so this is the arc web browser. It is a very weird looking web browser compared to most that you've seen by default, it's got, well, not by default always. It has its tabs on the side. You, by default, don't have like a real address bar. It's just this little short one. And then you can click on it to see the whole URL. And it also does an interesting thing where it combines tabs and bookmarks. They're basically they can be the same thing in arc. So these all of these are not open websites that I have. They're my bookmarks. But when I click on one of them. So for instance, I better not go into support stuff. But if I go into, say, my C panel here, that's a bookmark. And when I click on it, it loads it, right? Or if I go to my Reclaim Cloud, which I already had loaded actually, it loads it right in line. So basically your bookmark becomes an open tab, if that makes sense. And that's a really interesting organizational idea. What they're trying to do here is, I think, reconcile the way people use web browsers nowadays in, you know, in the 2020s. In a way that hasn't really been examined since like browsers got tabs in like the 2000s, basically. So what does it look like when you have something that's not a bookmark? A bookmark. Yeah, so those go below the, this little new tab button. So if I click a click new tab here, by the way, this is it kind of looks like spotlight on the Mac. When you hit, this is sort of the address bar. So if I just go to like Reclaim Hosting dot com, it opens up down here below a little divider line. OK. And then I can drag this so I can just like, all right, let's put it over here. Now that's a bookmark. Yeah, I don't hate that setup for sure. I mean, I think that a lot of us have a visceral reaction to too many open tabs in your browser. This is one thing I don't like it does. It likes to rename tabs for you. And it will just be like, ah, I used AI to figure out what that should be called. I'm like, no, I wanted to be called what it was. Don't change it. It's presumptuous. I'm just, you probably can turn that off, to be honest. Most of the AI features you can turn off or ignore to their credit. So yeah, but also like that also makes you wonder about what defaults should be put in place. And I think that I mean, something I'm noticing even now is just I personally am not a huge fan of when you know, platforms like this are trying like try to simplify things so much that it doesn't help you understand how like the web works, you know. And so like even just in the the the browser bar there, the amount that it hides from you in terms of it just has to simplify it so much that it Oh, the fact it doesn't show the whole URL. Yeah, yeah, I hate that. I really don't like that either. I would actually argue and I think very few people would take this argument in good faith, but I argue that that's like a security problem, actually, because I think I think what we should be doing is letting people confront the fact what the whole URL is. And people go, well, your URLs are really hard and or can be really long and hard to understand. I was like, that's a problem of the website. Like they don't have to be made that way, you know. Safari does the same thing, by the way, by default, where you are on the web, you know, so yeah, that works. Thank you for bringing up Safari, because that was that's why I don't use Safari. You can turn this off in Safari, to be fair. I don't even remember where it is, but it's definitely thing that I yeah, under advanced show full website address. But I would argue that that should not be checked by default. And I think this even gets into privacy things, because most often these URLs are super long for tracking reasons. So like if I go in here and like, I don't know what I'm going to find when putting an AST, OK, let's sure we are in the deep Amazon already. But by going here, this stupid long URL is that way to help track me or specifically help track like me and whoever I send this link to, right? This thing is super long. So the fact that it's not shown, I think. Makes that practice less discoverable for people. And it could also just be like for us, we in the nature of our work and our our values, I guess, is that we want people to understand the web while they're on it. And I think that understanding URLs is, you know, it's key to the core component to that. Yeah, you're completely right. Like if anyone would not like this, it's probably us like anyone on earth. Right. But the only. But but yeah, you're right, though. It is it is it is indicative of, I think, a philosophy or just our objective. Like we want people to use but also understand the web. And I don't think that lots of big tech companies want people to understand the web. So that's that's being, you know, reductionist, right? Big companies have lots of people. So not everyone there is going to agree with each other, whatever. And I also think that maybe part of it is like they think they're they're doing, you know, doing people a favor by simplifying things because it can be overwhelming. And sometimes simplifying things is a good thing, right? Obviously. But I don't think it's necessarily they're trying to obscure the web from people, you know. But I think that there can be steps taken that are a little bit more informative. Yeah, for folks for maybe maybe a better, broader good. One of the things I want to see here, if I drag this tab, is it going to name it the same? So I've opened a new one and did it. And it will. There we go. Digital identity control is what it has named it. So but so it did do that both times, which is interesting. I suppose the one of the main things at the front of is take control of your digital identity. So OK. But anyway, so that that is kind of what this set up is. It's combining tabs and bookmarks. I think a really fantastic idea in a lot at its core. I really like that. And it's very interesting to me. You also can have like favorites, which are sort of different bookmarks that live up here and are these little icons. So I've dragged my Google Drive and Google Calendar up here. I'm actually going to click on it because I don't want like I don't care about myself, but other people's names and things may be there. So we're not going to go there. But the it's just a bookmark to Google Calendar. But it is interesting that it also shows like a little preview, which is kind of cool. That is cool. I like that. And it has a little timer. So it says, hey, in 37 minutes, you can see in 36 minutes, I'm going to take lunch because I've got my emoji block here. All of those things. Yeah, I'm going to have every day I have sushi, burrito and or no, it's just a sandwich, a burrito and a rice ball thing. What is that called? Anyway. I want to hear your name. Sure. Anyway, so that's that's cool, too. Just sort of like a little visual separation, right? And there's a lot of other really interesting features that that that arc has. So I'm actually going to go. I wrote a blog post when I first tried out arc in December of 2022. So it's been a bit now. It's been more than a year, year and a half, basically, since I first started using it. And I first started hearing about it about two years ago because it was in beta, like an invite only beta for a very long time. Now it's available to anyone on the Mac and on Windows. It's still in an invite only situation. This is another thing that makes it kind of a non starter for me because to be honest, any browser that I'm going to move into fully, I have to be able to use on every computer, including my phone, including my personal computer, which is a Windows computer. Like, I just I can't realistically not like have the same set of bookmarks everywhere for me. Anyway, that's kind of a non starter. But, you know, I did I have given arc ago many times and went, well, maybe the bookmarks aren't that important to me. And to be honest, like they are I probably feel like they're more important to me than they actually are because I definitely am a keyboard person and I'm more often typing in URLs or at least parts of URLs. But I don't know. I also want my bookmarks there, too. So anyway, I tried it out back then and almost everything I mentioned here, I pretty much still agree with. So I said, hey, the pinned tabs and address. I said, I like the way the address bar worked. I think what I meant by that is this pop up one. I like that because as we just said, I don't like the fact that truncates the URLs up here. I said, easels are genius. And I think I would maybe walk that back a little bit. But easels are this interesting like note taking thing. And basically you can make an easel and it's you can like draw and do that kind of stuff. But what is cool is you can actually add websites to an easel. And I don't even remember how to do this. But yeah, how does this even work? The idea, what did you say? So like a drag and drop? Yeah, I think so. The idea is you can grab images and stuff. But yeah, it's been a while. But this is my point, though, with easels is basically one of the features of them. And let me just close this really quick. Easels are browser is that you can somehow like embed essentially iframes of of of other web pages. So oh, you can use like the capture tool. OK, so you can go up here and click this little button in the address bar and then there are a lot of things you can do from here. But one of them that you can do is capture web page. So this is just like a screenshot, right? Oh, nice. Which is this is nice. This is one of the things I really like about Firefox is that it has a built in screenshot tool, which lets you like do scrolling screenshots and things. But you can go in here and have the add this to a new easel. And then if you hit this play button, it will actually load the real web page. This is no longer a screenshot. This is part of the web page. You may go, why would you want that? Well, you can do cool things like make like a little home page, right? Like you could go to like the weather channel or something. And screenshot, like, go, you know, go to your forecast and add an easel that loads that part of the web page. And just that part. So you're like making your own little widget. Yeah, basically. So here I can hit play and you can see you can kind of even tell that it loaded because it like things shifted around for a second. I know this is really small, but. Yeah, I can make that a little bit bigger. So obviously this example is kind of stupid. Like, I don't know why you'd want you wouldn't want it to look like this. But you could, for instance, do this. By the way, it gave it its own name here, too, which is interesting. Or maybe that's just the weather channel's actual title. Yeah, it might. I think that might just be what they put in the tab URL title thingy. But anyway, you could see this being useful for like if you're researching like a new, like a product you wanted to buy and you had a bunch of examples, oh, here's the five I'm interested in. You could use this and have like the real live prices displayed, right? Like there are some interesting use cases. Question is can you export it at all? Yeah, I believe you can. Let me use case that I'm thinking of would be like creating documentation on something where you need to take screenshots and like. Yeah, you know, screenshots that you then can share with somebody. I don't know. OK, so you can export it as an image. You can also share these as a link. So there are there are links. I believe they can only be. Yeah, OK, they can be viewed in any browser as a web page, but only edited in art. So yeah, it's kind of a cool feature. I I would say I'm not OK. I think the idea is genius. I will say I literally have never used it as intended because I've never never once found myself being like, oh, let me make a perfect little easel when I could instead just like have a document where I pasted five links. But that is very much a tailor thing. Like some people care a lot more about how that information would be displayed, right? Like, so I could see it being useful. Yeah, I mean, it's a it's a workflow that's just kind of unexplored by a lot of people. So it's not going to be a default workflow for somebody. Exactly. Like for me, I'm going to put that type of thing in obsidian because that's where my brain is at this point. But like not everyone has that or wants to work that way. Right. So I think the idea is a good one, but it's not one that I'm finding a lot of utility out of. The other one that's kind of cool and I do actually use, but this isn't like necessarily unique to ARC is the concept of boosts. And they are. Oh, I linked to that. Well, I don't actually want to watch this video right now. But basically boosts are this feature where you can. Modify a web page and it's kind of cool. So again, I'm going to use weather. I'm going to pick on weather.com here because it's a frankly, like a terrible website, like just so bad in terms of like ads and stuff. Just, you know, a lot of garbage that you don't care about. So boosts is a perfect example of this. So you can go in here and then click on this little paint brush and then. Whoops. OK, there we go. So first thing you can do is you can like change the font of the site, which I think is hilarious. I myself am not doing this, but like cool. I love that have they have wingdings in here, like a plus like. I don't know who's doing that, but I love it. You can also change like the color of the site, which is kind of cool. Again, I'm not doing this, but like me, I like it. And you can like do all kinds of weird gradients and stuff. You can apply like a negative filter to to essentially give it a dark mode. So if I like I'm going to get rid of this, actually keeps wanting to go off my screen. So this is a little bit maybe easier. So you can see just flips it to negative, basically. You can change like the case and size of things like that. Just this is just a zoom level, but the case is interesting. Like if you're someone like me who really hates things that are all caps when they should not be. You can tell it not to do that. You can make everything lowercase if you want. So that's kind of interesting. But the real cool one, I think, is ZAP, which is basically. Let me let me go here. I like this. This that's a nice purple. You can go in here and say, I don't want to see this ever. And so you can click on ZAP and just whoop. I may need to like not actually scroll when I do that. So you can zap that little widget, basically, from the page. I think what's really cool about this is that they're actually like fully leveraging what you can do with like the way that information is displayed in the browser. A hundred percent. It's all like, I mean, if you know, you know, you know. This is all possible, but it's not very accessible to people. Right. It's not. Yeah, exactly. It's all possible. All of that information is freely there. And I mean, even if you were in like an inspector mode and a browser page, like you could change this stuff. Yeah, I do do some of these things, right? In Firefox using I use I don't even remember the extension, but I use one where I can write my own CSS and JavaScript. But who's doing that? Not many people are doing that really accessible to people. And I think that obviously a lot of people don't understand that this is all possible. You can manipulate a web page in your own browser. But so it might seem a little bit more flashy than it is. But it's it's cool that they're making it so accessible to people. Yeah, I commend that because this is like to me, this is a feature that clearly was made by people who, like, understand the capability. Well, clearly they understand their web browser company. But like, but care about the the making the capabilities of the web, you know, accessible to people, which I think is really cool. I'm I can't remember. I should have thought of this earlier, but like even very recently, Tom Woodward blogged about this, basically, specifically, like his was some CSS he wrote. And it was kind of similar to the stuff that he helped us with, with like blurring out email addresses, you know, some of our video demos that we do. And he was talking about the idea that, like, this is a thing you can do on the web, but you can't in almost any other, like, computing app platform. You can't do this easily for a Mac app, you know, or a or a Windows app or definitely not a phone app, like so. And yeah, so I thought this was cool. You also can just like write the code in here if you want to do that. So that that's cool, too. And then I think is really neat is they have a built in sharing platform for these. So you can like style weather dot com and be like, look, I made it purple and deleted all the ads. Anyone want to see this? And then you can you can literally make a screenshot and then share it as a link, I believe. Yeah. And then other people using ARC can use it. I want to mention in Discord, Mark mentioned, they also don't have they also don't mention Linux on their roadmap at all. And yeah, I bet as a startup, I was mentioning earlier that it's Mac exclusive right now with Windows coming soon. And that makes it unusable for me in the long run. And yeah, Linux is not on that platform. And I don't use Linux every day for my work, necessarily, but I do use it for well, sorry, I use it every day of my work at the command line for servers and stuff, but not on a not as, you know, as my desktop. But but I would also need that to be an option, too, because I do I do noodle with that enough that I again would not realistically switch to a browser that isn't available on Linux. It's also just sort of like a contingency thing for me, like I want to be able to move between these ecosystems. And so it's hard for me to pin something as essential as my web browser into one. So OK, so that's that's boost. I think they're interesting. I don't know how many people would use them, honestly, like, but but I think it's cool. The thing, though, that in this is kind of the thing that keeps me on Firefox at this point, especially, and it's not unique to Ark, is that Firefox has this amazing extension called multi account containers where you can have different sort of profiles and as many as you want, and you can open URLs in specific profiles. You can say, oh, always open this domain name or or URL or whatever in this account container. And that container is my work one where I'm signed into my work email. And I find that super useful. You can you don't have to always set up as rules. Like you can you can also just manually do this. And I find this really great for something as simple as YouTube. Like I watch YouTube on my personal profile, like, obviously. But I also do a lot of things where I need to upload YouTube videos to reclaims account. I don't want to be accidentally logged in to reclaims account when I'm watching my like dumb video game three hour long essays. Like I just don't want that. Like that should be in my personal thing. I want to keep those things separate. And Chrome and and Ark actually do have a solution for this. But they require this separation that I don't like where you have to have a totally different window in space, basically. And in Firefox, you could do it that way if you wanted to. But you can also just say, oh, no, no, open this one of my other thing. And it just puts a nice little color coding on the tab. And I really like that. I just now realizing I should have shown this instead of just describing it. But like, no, it was a beautiful description. I think you painted the picture in all of our minds. I know I you always talk about this and I see you and Chris and other Firefox users use containers in Firefox. And I used to be a Chrome user like two years ago. Like it's been it's been a little while. But I did like that I could, you know, have those different profiles, essentially, and I'd gotten used to using it in two completely different windows. And so me going from that to Firefox, where it was like these little containers was like too much for me to wrap my head around. But well, and that's a very good point. And I would say there's nothing inherently wrong with the Chrome approach. Right. It's just different. And I don't I like I do too much like mixing and matching of stuff. Like it's very common for me to have many browser windows open and have like, oh, I've got a YouTube video over here and it's playing. Oh, you know, I'm going to pause that. And I'm now going to use that browser window to show some information that I'm working on, right? Like, and so this is not personal at all. Right. And so that separation in Chrome, I find annoying. But like, I get it. Like, I do I do get it. And for anyone who hasn't seen this, basically, this is what I mean. So I've got Google here and I can right click on it and just open it in my work profile. I name them after email addresses, in my case, but you can name them whatever you want. And in this profile, I'm only signed into my reclaim account. But this works with any site or obviously I'm showing Google as an example, but I could use YouTube or whatever. And I find it really, really useful. And I really like the way that Firefox does it personally. So that's one thing. And it kind of leads into another thing with ARC that I don't like. And again, this is a very me problem, I suspect. But ARC, I feel like is designed for someone who only ever works on their laptop, never has any, like, more than one display and also does not care or cannot manage any windows. Like, they they envision you using one window of ARC at any time and no more than one. You can use more than one window, but it's very cumbersome for a lot of reasons. I like my windows. Me too. I mean, again, I'll reference another blog post here, but I have a truly stupid setup at my desk that really works for me personally, right? Like, and ARC kind of is incompatible with it. Well, again, it's a question of workflows, right? And we are so locked into our particular workflows. And so it's I think it is a challenge for companies like this to try and introduce something that's new. Well, and I don't blame them for like, can you imagine rolling into a design meeting and you're like, we're going to reinvent the web browser and make it easier, but also more productive for people and people like, yes, we need to design for this one weirdo who has three monitors and two of them are portraits. Like, no, we're what, like we're not doing that. That would be a really dumb choice. So I'm not suggesting that this is an inherent flaw with ARC. Well, OK, I kind of think that they they they need to rethink the flexibility of it and the model that they're going with. But what I'm saying is this is a specific to me problem and other people who use multiple monitors. It could in really even just two, honestly, is enough for this to be a problem, I think, because you can open multiple windows in ARC, but it gets really weird, really fast. So if I like do a, you know, like a command to end to open another one, what I get is a copy and it gets kind of strange. So I can click on things like so I can have different web pages, right? That's all that's all well and good, but it's it's truly a copy. So like if I open another one here, let's say I want to go to I guess I'll open my will open reclaim hosting.com again. You can see it also shows up over there. And I think I see conceptually why they did that because it would be confusing for this these two lists to be separate because the top half is your bookmarks. So those should be the same everywhere, right? But these ones aren't bookmarks. So they're saying, well, it'd be weird if this was inconsistent. And I kind of get that. But then what ends up happening is over time, I'm opening more windows because I'm comparing things, right? I'm doing support. So I'm like writing an email to someone and then looking at their account. And then I maybe even got some documentation open. So I may have three things open just to do one thing, right? But that's great for me versus having to like flip back and forth. I would be very much less productive. Well, then I end up doing things like, oh, yeah, here we go. And then pretty quickly, I've got like three of the same exact website open. And what gets even weirder is these can deviate, right? So I clicked on that same tab and I have it open. But now I've moved to a different page over here. And when I go back over here, it updates. And again, I can see why they did that. But it's no good for me, but I don't have a good suggestion for them because it's like, well, we want these to be separate. Do you want us to like fork the tab out into its own one? And I'm kind of like, yeah, I think you do. I actually do think that's what I would prefer. But I don't know. Like it's it's hard. It's a hard interface problem, but they've kind of buried themselves. I was going to say they've backed themselves into a corner with that with that particular issue. And then on top of that, they have some other things mitigating strategies that they they try to do to make this easier. So I think if I was like, say, talking to someone on the ARC team, they'd be like, well, you're doing it wrong. You know, what you need to do is not open multiple windows like that. You should have one main window. And didn't you know you can have splits so you can do this. You can take one tab and drag it on top of another one. And then they're side by side. Again, this is cool. Like I get this. This is awesome. You can even resize it really cleanly. It's neat, but like I don't always want this either. Like it's very common for me, even on a large web large monitor like I use to have things sort of like overlapped. Yeah, because I don't know. That's how computers work. Like, you know, and and a little bit of this is definitely like me being an old man about it. Like I do get that. But like it just it's disruptive enough to my workflow that I I think even in my blog post, I'm pretty sure I mentioned, yeah, I literally am at the bottom. I say six hours later. Well, I switched back. I tried to do one support shift using ARC and I just couldn't. And I will say I'm not the only one I've heard from like that. Like I have a friend who doesn't work at Reclaim, but but also works in, you know, technology. And and does support and was like, oh, specifically when I got to support and had to be like referencing things, fixing things and writing an email at the same time, it was just a no go. I couldn't do that. Um, so if I was a one screen person or like a only laptop person, I don't think this would bother me at all, honestly. Yeah, but it really does. And then it gets even weirder because there's this other thing called spaces. So we talked about profiles in Chrome where you can have multiple windows. The way that ARC does that is kind of with they, they also technically call it profiles, but they're combined with a feature called spaces. So I just switched over here to my personal space. And these are, you know, personal things. So I've got my RSS reader here. I've got Hacker News. I use Google Photos, some weather forecasts, because I'm actually like not that into weather, but anyway, I don't know. I feel like I'm always seeing weather pop up with you, Taylor. So we live in the northern part of the country. And I mean, I definitely made a homepage for myself and Firefox. This is that. And all it is, is a markdown editor and a weather report. So like, I guess I do really like weather, but anyway. So the problem, the problem here, I shouldn't say problem here. I'm still getting to the thing. So this is kind of cool too. Like you can really quickly move between these. I really like that. In fact, that does make some of the problem I was talking about earlier with Chrome having profiles be different, sort of separated things easier because you can you can more easily move things between basically. At least it seems like it to me. Or you can say, oh, I opened the wrong kind. I just want to flip over. Like that's that's very easy to do. In fact, you don't even have to have to open, right? Like I can just have one window and flip back and forth between them. And that works just fine. Like nothing reloads. It's it's it's really cool. Again, though, very much optimized for only one window because then when you have to it's compounded, like all the issues I was showing before get even weirder when you do things like, oh, I've got a YouTube video over here. And we're yeah, let's open our own own YouTube video. And then I've got work over here and oh, it just actually switched me over. There we go. Let me close some of these other things, too. And then you you forget that you already have a personal window open. So you switch over to personal here and I click on YouTube. And now I'm watching the same video literally two times. Like it it just doesn't work for me. You can also see I switched back here. And then it put my video in picture in picture. No, but it was already over. What are we doing? Like like I run into this kind of stuff all the time. This is not like again, I cannot overstate. These are, I think, really hard problems to solve. I use an interface designers are built different than me. Like I can't it's it's a very difficult problem. But it does mean that this model just kind of doesn't work for me. And the whole idea of bookmarks and tabs being one. While I start out with this being like, oh, it makes perfect sense to me. I end up being like, no, I actually really rather just have a browser and click on the bookmarks that I want. Like that actually works a lot easier for me. It's easier for me to see what I currently have open and what I don't. You know, yeah. So, yeah, so that, unfortunately, that kind of core conceit is not compatible with me, even though I kind of want it to be, to be honest. Because I'm definitely a type of person who builds up a lot of tabs and then I like purge them and this is trying to solve that. And I commend them for trying to solve that fully. But it just isn't quite. No, I really I do I I like the display. Um, it's not perfect in terms of functionality, but I really I like having the way that it's set up with like the content being kind of on its own area. And then like I'm a sidebar person, I like a sidebar. Yeah, I like this too. I even really like that they have some nice keyboard shortcuts so you can do Command S and it'll hide it. So you get this super minimal just the web page looking thing. And I kind of like that, that I can kind of like easily do that. That's really cool. And even when it's hidden, you can just hover over here and it'll pop out, which is sort of cool. There's even some other things. They recently added the ability to where is this even? There's more spotlight type stuff so you can like search for settings and they'll just show up in here like I can show a toolbar, I believe. Yeah, so I can do show toolbar and it will tell me, oh, by the way, this is the this is the command, but this is the keyboard shortcut for that if you want to know and they can split out and you can have a real address bar. I really like that. So I hid it for the purposes of this demo, but when I was using it, this is how I used it because I kind of always want the address bar. Yeah. And you even have that same option that Safari has where you can say. I think it's in here. Yeah, show full URL when toolbar is enabled. So cool. Again, none of these are defaults, but it's there. So that's nice. So then that's the Arc interface. This is sort of the core of Arc and what was there at the time. If you're curious about like why people like it, I would recommend watching the videos I linked here. This is from one channel, but from different times. And I think he does a really good job of explaining sort of what is neat about Arc in a concise way unlike what I just did. So then this year, and I think like January, February, they put out a video, the Arc team put out a video being like, this is this is act two for Arc. And it's very interesting because where is my Firefox window? There we go. It's really interesting. We'll play it in Arc, though, because why not? And you're not going to have any sound here, and that's OK. But they basically did this like 15 minute long video of like, here's a bunch of essentially AI related features coming to Arc. And here's why. And I think they did a really good job of selling in this video of why because they don't come back of they don't go with like, AI is the future and it's inevitable. So this is here. This is here it is, you know, they actually go through and say this belongs in our browser and here's why. And they even go as far as to explain like their theory about the web and essentially that search engines captured the business model of the web. And so when we think of, you know, things like AI related to the web and, you know, AI summaries and things and saying, oh, that's going to really hurt, you know, that that's not compatible with the ad model that search engines use. They're sort of like, so. Yeah, exactly. And I don't I mean, I'm kind of like, OK, I like I are. All right. That is a way better take than a lot of the ones I've heard in terms of pro these tools, you know. The problem is to me, I don't think anyone's that concerned about Google. I'm not like, you know, I'm not like the Google as a search engine is not in a great place right now. I feel like search engines are not are are less and less valuable and good than they ever were. And that is their argument. But what I'm saying is like, I'm not really that worried about Google. I'm more worried about the content that Google gets me to, right? I'm worried about the web pages, right? And what happens when no one's incentivized to visit them? Right. And so they came out with a feature called I think it's called instant search, instant links. OK, and they're going to demo this really quick. And this this video, we're not going to watch this all, but they basically demo like, oh, what if you could just type in what you wanted and it just opened a tab for you? And, you know, no search engine, we're skipping the search engine. And then they even go as far as demoing this, but you can do it with folders. So as an example here, let's if I open up the thing and say. If I just go domain of one zone and then do instant open here. It's going to take a second. And then in this case, it actually brings me to UMW domains. Yeah. But the interesting thing is this thing, we're bypassing the search engine. We're cutting them out because they didn't have they didn't necessarily have to inherit the web is sort of like their take. And like, look, don't give it wrong. That language is very compelling to me. It feels good. It feels good to listen to. Exactly. The systems are being made here. Exactly. This isn't literally. I'm not making it. And I don't like that. And also. Maybe some folks are watching this and being like, how is this different from the I'm feeling lucky button in Google? And I would say it's I'll tell you the difference. It is slower. It is not deterministic and it uses more energy. So I could do the same thing, by the way. If I so I use keggy and also duck duck go as has this feature to many search engines now have this bang feature where you can type in a query and then you can use a exclamation point and like a shortcut to send that somewhere else. You can say like, oh, put in. Use the exclamation point and then GM and it will search Google Maps for that thing, which is kind of cool. I use it a lot. This one here, if I give it nothing, it will do the it will just bring me to the first result, whatever that is in keggy. And if I do that, it's instant and brings me to the exact same place. And it will, you know, until the search results basically change. So from my perspective, this is no different, possibly worse. It's definitely slower. And so it kind of makes that feature not that helpful. Then the other one they demonstrate is you can put natural language in here. So you can say like, make a folder of three electric car reviews and it will do that. So it says, searching the web for you. And it made a full only did one. But normally it will do the number you specify AI. And you can see it made a folder called electric car reviews and it put one in this case. That's kind of interesting that that didn't work. Three articles about. Maybe I wonder if it'll do this with Domino one's own. Oh, I didn't do that correctly. I have to instant open it. Instant open it, which is a funny feature because it's very much not instant, but whatever. So in this case, I didn't say folder, by the way. So it did open. Two, that's very weird. Normally I have not seen it have problems with the number of things, but whatever it did go to like and some of these are good, like the the edge of cause article that this makes sense, I think, to pull this up about when you're asking about Domino one's own. I don't know why this wired article isn't loading, but I think I know which one this is. Anyway, yeah, Mark, I can't count. Yeah, and that's very true. I've not seen that specific issue with this feature, but obviously susceptible to it. But my point is simply like, oh, that's that's a cool flashy thing to do. But like, isn't this just worse than a search results page? Like, wouldn't it be better for me just to type in it's faster, like literally less characters and then like I can see what the websites are. There's nice little descriptions and I can go, oh, cool. That one and that one. Yeah. And that one, like I don't understand who would ever use this. And maybe I'm just not seeing it, right? But like, so I think one of the this may have been an example on the video that you shared, but for me, I would be interested in using this for very personal stuff, like recipes, you know, like rather than searching for it, though, in a search engine. Well, it would be for me. Yeah, it'd be nice to like not have to shift through a bunch of recipes and like try and find. Yeah, that's my fault again. Yeah, I mean, let's see how it does. I want to see it's that even because I hate like going through and like looking for because I'm not looking for when I'm looking for a recipe. I mainly just want like the process, you know, yeah. And then I'll do whatever I want when I'm cooking, but. But then wouldn't you rather, I think in that case, wouldn't you probably actually prefer the large language model result here and have it use you mix up all the recipes and tell me generally what a chili recipe is. I would like that. That's right. Because the thing here is it brings me to five web pages. I don't know, but I'm willing to bet this is essentially five links that could be found on the first page of any search engine. I could check, right? And it may not be right, but probably the most popular, the most frequented sites, which are the sites that are on the front. And to be whoops. And to be fair to this, I'm giving it kind of terrible prompts, right? Like, I'm not giving it any. Like, I think I could go in more here and say, like, give me three reviews of the newest iPhone, but don't have any of them from wired because I don't like wired for some reason. Right. I'm fine with wired. But I'm just saying, like, you I think you could do that, right? Because it is a large language model that they're using to, like, understand your context or what you're asking, basically. Yeah. And so that's kind of interesting. But, you know, again, like, it's really not that hard for me to just, like, go here and not click on the ones I don't want to see. Or if you're more of a power user, you could do things like, you know, minus wire dot com. And, you know, like, you can there are you can tell search engines to not include certain things. I, again, I'm a big at this point, like a big keggy fan, which is a paid search engine. So it's not going to be for everyone at all. But I can even go in here and block domains or downrank them if I wanted to do that. There are solutions to these that are deterministic that will always work, you know. Yeah. So this is my thing. And they do have other features. We do have to wrap up. We're already over time. But they do have some other features on there. They have a mobile app that's called ArcSearch. And it basically you tell it what you want and you can hit a browse for me button. And it will basically do the chat GBT thing. It'll generate like a summary and it has some links. Google has been doing that lately, too. Yes, mobile search. And that's useful for me when I'm just whipping something out. Like, you know, I've searched something silly just the other day. Oh, it's spoilers for Peaky Blinders. I wanted to know something specifically and they were able to give that to me. Yeah. And so I find those useful alongside search results because they will typically link to their sources. Now it's up to you to use them responsibly. You have to check. OK, does the thing support what it says? Because in AI stuff, it frequently doesn't. But for basic things, it can work. But the problem is, in my opinion, is I don't think that belongs in the browser. I think I would rather Google or Kagi. Like, I don't know why I would want that feature tied to my browser, I guess. You know, I just learned a little bit there. Yeah. I mean, I can see that that's a solution. But given what it can do, let me here and let me actually go. Arc search is what it's called. I'm not going to actually demo it because we're out of time. But the this is really don't have a screenshot of what it looks like. That's amazing. Because this is the normal browser. But yeah, OK, this is what the app looks like. So it basically generates a nice, pretty looking overview. It's essentially perplexity for folks who have used that. It's sort of like an AI search engine. So you can say, like, what is I'm going to keep using to minimum zone is my example. And it will go here's my sources and here's my answer. It basically does this. But as you said, Google has this built in if you're using on mobile. And if you use it on desktop, it only shows up if you use Chrome. Because they want you to use Chrome. Kagi has the same thing. It's called Quick Answer. And I really like Kagi's because I like that I can choose when it does it. And then it will spit this out. It'll still cite its sources and it's all, you know, in line search results. And, you know, Bing does that like this is a thing. Search engines are going to do this. And I actually. I think if we can get people to understand what this is good at and what it's not good at, it can be useful. I think that's a tall order in terms of educating. But, you know, I I do like this overview from time to time. I've found it useful too. And again, especially for technical stuff where I can like type a question in here and then sit like, you know, how do I check? How long a Linux server has been running? And of course, this is a simple question. So I probably could find out pretty quickly with one of these links or I can type Quick Answer and it'll be like, use the uptime command. Great. And I can find out, is that right? You know, that's why I like this stuff for technical things because there is an answer, usually, or at least a a correct answer. And I can find out if it got it or not. So anyway, that's a huge long rant about. ARC, some of its interesting features, some of its future AI direction, and I haven't found very useful in it personally. And a lot of our feelings around it. And I hope anyone who watched this found this at least entertaining, maybe informative. All we can hope to be is entertaining because, you know, what do we know? Yeah. And yeah, thanks for joining me, Manda. Yeah, thanks for inviting me to this and bring it up to me a while ago. And this was super fun. So thanks, everybody, for joining us. Hope you have a great weekend. Yeah. Yeah.