 And welcome to this Think Tech Hawaii show on Thursday, August 26, 2021. You are watching the show, America Finding Its Way. And I'm your host, Stephanie Stoll Dalton. Our show topic today, Kapu Hun, Afghanistan and Hawaii, which we use top top leaders pronouncements to set policy and new rules for the US. So as you heard recently, the US House Speaker Pelosi made Afghanistan off limits, even to elected governor government officials who had experience as the combat veterans there. And then we heard Hawaii speak to make Hawaii Kapu by discouraging visitors coming from anywhere. The House Speaker Pelosi's a sailing representatives major and molten their sneak visit into the Afghanistan during the air lab in during airlift. She said that that was really not a good idea. And that's why she didn't want anyone else following in their footsteps and would not facilitate anyone traveling there to observe or otherwise. Hawaii's governor seriously discouraged visitors to the islands as he tried to manage the COVID create crisis right rising over 55,000 cases total. The leaders responded to the governor, like Senator say, say, psyche, who didn't see how deterring visitors would make it better at all. And he suggested that the governor discouraged travel to Las Vegas. The chairman will kind of the Senate Energy Economic Development Tourism Committee said he gays recommendation was overdue. Let the economy take a vacation he said it will surge back. So we have assembled think tech guests on this panel to discuss these challenges. And we would like to have conversation as a panel on this program today so I wanted to introduce these informed hosts other hosts and participants in this show and they are Jay Fidel, and they are Tim Apicello and Winston Welch. Thank you all for being here. Well, let me ask to start off, what was the impact of Speaker Pelosi statement that it was not a good idea to travel to Afghan to observe, even for veterans who knew the theater. The whole thing is, the whole thing is a big zero. Now they went over there look stupid. You know, I think, you know, sometimes the way it works is just spell my name right, but this was such a small peanuts thing. And so stupid that they, they can't even nobody will remember them in a few days. Just, just to say that there were two jerks who went over there wasted resources that were so critical and bringing 100,000 afghans out and her remarks were too late. So the whole thing what's your next question Stephanie. I'm going to chime in real quick. They probably don't realize that if they were taken hostage by either Taliban or this new ISIS group. What a bargaining chip that would be and how feckless the United States would look so it really was a stupid move on their part and thank God nothing came of it. Well, that that actually was the next question is what what are the issues she was addressing. I mean she made that statement. You know it's not a good idea but what what were the compelling US interests there exactly what you say Tim, I mean how, how did she, she was she balancing in any ways, our security and safety with transparency I mean, what was she, I didn't understand what were her motivations for that statement, other than the danger factor. You want me to pine or someone else. Yeah, well look at the logistics for bringing in a congressman. I mean we already have the airports at capacity, you're bringing in plane. You've got to have a certain detail to protect the congressman. So it's it's pulling of resources that are stretched in already. And now you're spending resources to play some political game with two. I mean, I'll go with Jay's comment just stupid. Winston, what, what effect does her pronouncement have for you. I'm not so concerned about Nancy Pelosi is I mean we have so many domestic things to focus on. It was stupid for them to go who wants to who goes into an active essential war zone. On purpose, not a war zone. It's a chaos zone. This is like, would you have flown into Tehran when the embassy was was being taken over, you know, or any other collapsing regime or infrastructure of any country. That's what's the point unless you're going there on some sort of rescue mission like going to Haiti, where you're welcomed and and they want people in there and they need people in there. This is the opposite. Like Tim said, this is just a distractionary diversion of resources, puts these folks at risk, offers a great hostage taking situation or just a disaster of a shootout or whatever. So it was just for craving political purposes that they went there. This reminds me of Linda Lingle, who disappeared from Hawaii one day when she was governor and reappeared, you know, if she nobody knew where she was her staff couldn't do wouldn't say, and a few hours later she reappeared in Iraq. Okay, she was, you know, going to check it out. And it was a complete grandstand play. It was ridiculous that the governor of a state would go to a war zone. This was a war zone at the time. It just so happened that Ruth Bader Ginsburg was here at the time, and giving talks and down in Waikiki, and I was there to escort her. And so I told she says where is the governor I thought the governor was going to be here. I said no no justice. The governor is in Iraq to this this morning. This is long silence. And she was there with her husband, Marty, and they said as one, they said yes, but why it's a grandstand that's why. What about our policy, the US policy of embedding all these reporters remember from the get go in Iraq. We had that one woman in there that was in bed or maybe she but but they were they were embedding the reporters in with the military. So that we were fully transparent in what we were doing. So I thought that this was what Nancy Pelosi was obfuscating or setting aside, because we're expected. I think our we isn't that our policy is to make sure that we're, we're open and can have people see what are our tactics strategies and warfare, even in warfare to show that we're rule driven and you know have guidance from all of the airwax and all the planes and everybody that all every single move practically is approved almost by the White House that we do in any war situation so I thought that that was an established position of the US and that she was going against that position What do you think. Yeah, what are you thinking Tim. Well, I'd like to see the SPJ the Society of Professional Journalist cards from those two congressmen, they're going on a reporters mission. Number one they're not trained and number two, never insert yourself as a reporter as the story. So, no, doesn't wash. Okay, even though they both were veterans from the matter, they're inserting themselves into the story to be the story. To get the points and that's what Winston you said that anything else to say about it other than that they're going there grandstanding for points for political points. Stephanie I think you should mention this is a very dangerous place and in fact there was a suicide bombing this morning. It killed a lot of people. So, you know, you want to go into that you stood a chance yesterday before and certainly today and tomorrow of being killed in a suicide bombing. In fact, it was by ISIS it was by ISIS. So I you know I thought, you know that is really critical to define the theater we have here and to define the theater we will have between now and Tuesday. Well, and also defines what the Taliban are looking at soon as we go they're going to there's they're they're not without a shortage of enemies all around them. And you know, these congressmen really want to help. We all know that this is it's it's a bad exit. It was a bad, you know, for 20 years. What have we been doing there and for the people that have lost their lives and given their lives or or their minds or limbs. It's been, you know, devastating but assuming that, you know, we're just pulling out now just because that's what we're doing. These congressmen should be going back to their own districts and saying what can I do in my own district right now to help the vets that have been there or to help with COVID or to help with some sort of economic program and see anything. There's a number of many important things that they could do that would be meaningful in their own districts rather than I think they get booed. Don't you? I mean, if there are a sense in people in the crowd, they should be booed as pariah. Well, they may be booed. But, you know, there's so many other important things. This is an important issue, certainly. But them going there is not going to change the story. It might change the story if they got, you know, some tragedy befell them. But otherwise this we're trying to have as orderly a withdrawal as in the mess and chaos that it is and they don't need to be adding and stirring the pot anymore. Well, I'm just a little bit surprised that there isn't a more concern for the transparency of it because it really is a shutdown situation. The whole airlift. I mean, they're working. It's taking so much to do it. And, and, and it's in circumstances that are costly and dangerous and explosive at any time. But, but there's a, I think she's English. I can't remember her name. She appears on MSNBC as a remote news, news gather up in Afghanistan. And she's very courageous, really good reporter. She's making her name right now. And she was on, I want to say MSNBC possibly Rachel Maddow show yesterday, where she said, Well, I've been measuring this every day, the value of being there and reporting back about what's going on, and the risk of being killed every day. And I'll tell you right now, I left. I got on a plane and left because I decided that it had tilted against saying there, but it tilted in favor of saving me. And I think if she she was very courageous, she would go into these really desperate and threatening situations. And she left. And I think the press has got to make it's, you know, it's, it's got to, it's got to find that line and that line here now on this is already passed. This is crazy violence. It's chaos. You want to stay in there. There's no benefit to you. And you are in mortal danger. Exactly. Well, that's Kapu Afghanistan. No one else is to be facilitated to go there by any of these military lifts or other resources that all of these Congress people use to take these informational information gathering trips. There is a tradition of not to defend them Stephanie but the two congressmen who went there a few days ago, use commercial airlines to get in. And they were of that plane, of course, was empty. Nobody is flying into Afghanistan now, but they use the military aircraft to get out. And that's the real violation. Yes, I can know if there are Afghanis going back out with those congressmen. I bet there weren't. Well, no, they said that they're, they're going back to the US on the military flights took spaces that that Afghanis could have had or other, you know, other or Americans that are trapped in in Afghanistan. So that was their bad. Also, that that was another concern. And that that's, you know, valid concern. Well, let's come back then now that we've got the capital effect and the stand done for now and I'm sure it's going to be that way now for other reasons for a long time to come. But for governor egay. Um, did governor egay deserve the criticism that he got from Senator psyche and, or did he deserve the praise that he got from the committee chair, what kinds. In other words, psyche said, he didn't see any reason why this would help and he said for for the governor to to to discourage travel to Las Vegas, whereas the chair like he said that was long overdue, and it should have been put in place last last month, and that Hawaii's economy can take a break, because it'll bounce back. Well, you know, you know, Stephanie. There's there's two streams of information about the effect that tourists have on the level of COVID in the state. And I think for a few weeks and it's been increasing dramatically in those weeks. And the word was that Oh no, it's it's just community community contagion. And mostly it's in the, you know, the West End of Oahu and where people don't want to take vaccines. And you have the military, which, you know, at the time was unvaccinated. So, you know, it's not, it's not really good tourists. Okay. And then most recently though they found that an extraordinary number of tourists actually tested positive. The Senate has to tell us that, you know, our worst fears have been realized. And that, you know, our common sense should have told us weeks ago that the tourists were bringing the COVID, because the testing protocols are really ineffective. You know, how do you know you're not affected when you have a disease that you can catch in one second between the time you're tested and the time you get on the plane. And it's absurd to think that the testing is really a an effective way to identify the cases. It's not. We were dealing with a variant that moves with the speed of light. So, you know, now we know that a lot of tourists are coming in with this. When I go with David Egan, I would go much harder. I would really shut it down. Because as long as they come in, we're going to have an increase in that surge. As for going to Las Vegas, same thing, I would shut that down too. But he can't, you know, he can't just shut down the passage of people from one state to another. That's the constitutional right they have under the Commerce Clause, so forth. The bottom line, though, is we really got to do something. We're up there with the worst of them these days in terms of the percentage of increase in contagion. And we got to do everything we can do. Queens is maxed out. We discussed that yesterday. So, I mean, what's happening now is really deadly. And we all, all of us here now today have to be very careful. But the state has to be, so I would be more draconian by far than David Egan has been. So, Tim, what's your take on this? My take is right with Jay's. And that is hospital bed capacity seems to be the driver of how we shut down or not shut down. And they're filling up. Queens is filling up. And when you get, you know, 35,000 tourists a day, some tourists think the laws of physics don't apply to them because they're on vacation. And that's why we see so many people tourists drown or fall off cliffs or, you know, break their, you know, their pelvis on hiking trails because they're just, they're on vacation and nothing can happen to them. Well, if something happens to them, where are they going to go when these beds are all they're spoken for? They'll board them along the hallways at Queens. They'll board them somewhere, but they're not going to get the best of care when you're boarded along the hallway. And I think the governor had a point to caution tourists from coming in, if it's not for them bringing in a virus, it's certainly that if they should get hurt, have a stroke, have a heart attack, whatever, there may not be medical services available to them. So think twice. Well, you know, this brings up the latest concern that's being posted that the problem now is between and the tension is between the vaccinated and the unvaccinated. And that people are beginning to be concerned that they can't get into a hospital and they've done everything they can do by taking the vaccine. And the rest and other people are there taking spaces so that there's a concern that this may erupt into some more of this tension and bipolarization of people and maybe into more trouble than that. Hopefully, with these boosters, and what we've been doing lately with the approval from the FDA, do you think that this is going to bring this rate down so that we can get out of these other difficulties that can make our situation much, much worse? What do you think, Winston? Well, it's a lot of questions right there. But basically, I think the governor of Puerto Rico said you must be double vaccinated to enter our island. Our governor could do that too, requiring that. And the testing part, yes, that too. They have a six-hour PCR test. I would say, you want to come to Hawaii? Okay, that's fine. Go to the airport six hours early. Get your test. When you're negative and you can clear eight hours early or whatever it is, you get a thing on your Hawaii safe pass. It says I just passed my PCR test less than 12 hours ago or whatever it is. And then when you come here, you will also quarantine for at least four days in your lovely hotel. And then from there, you can be free. That only solves part of the problem. But when you're here, you will also wear a mask at all times. I noticed that the governor of Oregon said when you're outside and you're in anything where you're not just passing someone casually on a trail. And even then, when you're having so many people coming in record numbers, most people need to be wearing masks. So this is a crowded island. You can't hardly go anywhere without other people around. That's another requirement. But we still have then the homegrown problem of parts of this island where, last time I checked, it was like 30% vaccination rates. So the mandates for city and county workers, for federal workers, for military, for individual shops and restaurant owners. I think that there's a lot of shops that are really wishing they could have a mandate from the government so that they don't have to have Karen meltdown moments in front of their restaurants when they ask people for their IDs. It is just the law. If you want to enter this place of public commerce or establishment, this elevator, this building where the public is allowed to transverse. But you know, Winston, we have a lot of pushback on this. And I think we should discuss Stephanie, what's going on in front of Josh Green's apartment building. The latest news that it's got some kind of anti-semitic overtones. But that's not how it started. It started by these anti-vaxxers who were protesting every day for a week in hundreds of people, hundreds of people against vaccines. That is unbelievable here in Hawaii. But they're there, they keep coming out. And the other shock of that was none of the people understood that Green handles everything from a, he's a doctor. So he has a medical point of view and he's a practicing doctor on Maui in his spare time. And he handled that interview very well. He was actually on, wasn't it? It was Rachel Madeline, I think he was on, he was on television the other night. But he has a great difficulty with this because he's being assaulted in his home and the people are in the habit and they won't listen to the conditions at all. So did, did, why, and then he was also asked why he was the one that they were demonstrating for, because he's the lieutenant governor instead of the governor. And he said, well, that because he was seen as a person, he was doing a lot of the work from the medical point of view and he thought that that was a contribution that, you know, the governor. And because you know the Jewish space invaders were coming down with their aluminum foil hats from space. It's just, it's just as screwball crazy as that. I find, I find that, you know, we hear we think in our little shows, your show, Tim, and your show, Stephanie, that we live in a state of rationality, where people can, you know, relate to what we're saying that we represent a larger view of the public sentiment. Not there are not, not cases out right here in Hawaii. And this reveals something that should surprise us all, but also disappoint us all. Well, I think that that was a shock when I saw that on on the, you know, on the TV, I truly was astounded that that somebody had, they had come out and then they're pushing you know no forced vaccination. And that, and they think that that there's things that are going to happen to them as a result of taking it. And it was, it was very concerning and they don't seem to be aware of how big is the population in Hawaii that is Vax I think we're we're second. You know what you know it struck me, and maybe you guys noticed more about that news than I did. I was looking at the news articles to try to figure out who was running it. You know, this is a small island. Who's in charge of that protest. What organizations are involved. Did they ever mention it. You know that the press never really drilled down on who was doing it. It's just this nameless faceless anonymous crowd out there. Who's responsible for that. He called them the anti Vax protesters. And that that's what and he said the reason they were there too is because he is seen. He believes that he is seen as the voice of reason on behalf of science. So they, they are not in any way understanding, you know, what is actually trying to do which is get everybody to understand what the science is and know that they can do this without putting themselves in greater jeopardy. In fact, it's the opposite. They will die without it. But, you know, the real scary thing I think is that when you saw Rick Blandi already at his mayor's conference, we're looking at five times more cases right now. I think what they probably should have said is we're opening up a field hospital to handle the overflow for COVID cases so that we can treat heart attacks and strokes and car crashes and tourists breaking their hips in the regular ICU. And that's where they really needed to go with this because that's what the reality is going to be if the cases match the increase that's projected as of August 15. So I mean, the real story here is that they probably haven't gone far enough. They don't want to scare businesses and tourists too much. But I noticed it made headlines around the country. However, the tourists don't seem to be altering their plans at all. And again, it may not just be tourists, but who knows? How do we solve this without a vaccine mandate? Maybe we don't. Maybe we have our stores on Monday, Wednesday, Fridays and the weekends are for people who are vaccinated and workers who are vaccinated. And the other days are for the people and the workers and the customers who aren't vaccinated. And that's the way that we're going to solve it. I don't know. But I think understanding that we've had a 436% increase in hospitalization. And that ought to send a chill up everybody's spine because that means that that's bigger than that than COVID. Okay, Stephanie. You know, it's not just bed capacity. It's medical personnel. And it's going to if these, you know, today's 849 or 860 90 can remember these numbers continue hospitalizations will follow. There's not going to be enough medical personnel to take care of these patients. You're going to get into a very bleak dark triage tag system. And that means if it's not likely you're going to pull through, you won't have medical personnel dedicated to you. They'll move on to someone else that has a better chance of survival. And that's boy, that's bleak. That's a disaster, major disaster kind of territory. And we're on stage five of stage seven out of like military disaster alert or something along those lines. Like it only gives us two more levels to go. Yeah. And you know, and you know that they are already importing nurses. Yes. We don't, we don't have enough nurses. They're importing. Yeah. And they're not that many is not coming. Jay. I mean, the only gets so many out here. And you have to pay big bucks to bring them in, by the way. Well, they're also, they're doing that because they're 80 nurses that have arrived in one physician. So that just came this week because they're in such distress, but this with the medical people, they're, they're starting to polarize also because they all take the democratic oath, which is you don't make decisions on treatment in those terms that Tim was describing and you too Winston. And so what, what then another one said that they would have to ramp up with was the whole triage process, which is what they use in war and for battle casualties that they go in there and triage it. And that's where they would start to get into some of these issues. They get very sticky and concerned about that they get very, very sick and unhappy about the unvaccinated when they find that out, but then they just ramp it up and go on, because they have that Hippocratic oath. So it's going to take another way of thinking about her or it's, you know, probably a policy to triage in ways that if it, if it's going to continue to get worse. 426% increase. I think it Hawaii is on the verge of a many more temporary hospitals, and maybe the military again is going to have to kick in because I don't think as is. I don't know if tripler is full, but tripler would have more capacity to and then with temporary hospitals but yeah so I think that what we were going for here was to take a look at the influences that are out there. So this is that our leaders are saying and and doing and what what is the impact of that because we're in this crisis situation, dreadfully challenging as much as the the Berlin airlift and you know the end of Vietnam so these are very important in history. So when people make statements and including in our state for a gate to make a statement like that what what is what is that going to mean are people going to take that seriously and not come does that does that mean they won't ever come again probably not but is that the kind of impact we need on the world that Hawaii is not welcoming. Okay, but and without any policy that he's trying to make clear so I think that those kinds of statements on the part of our, our leaders need to get feet get some pushback and also some discussion so that they'll think about it more seriously when they're talking to the press. But thank you all very much. This is think tech Hawaii and this show is America finding its way and the discussion has been exciting for me and look forward to seeing you all in another week. Aloha. Thank you.