 Alright, thanks John for setting that up. Good to go. Thanks. Sure. Okay. And I'll go ahead and. Oh, so we are recording already. We are recording go for it. Great. Thank you. Welcome everyone to the August 24th. Identity special interest group. Thanks everyone for for joining us today. Today on the agenda, we'll go over some working group status updates from the community. And then we'll hear a presentation from tram vote. The CEO and founder of Moby on cross industry business automation, building the new economy of movement. So really looking forward to that. This, this is a Linux foundation call. We are following the antitrust policy written here and as a hyper ledger call we are following the hyper ledger code of conduct as well linked here. And we're recording this call and live streaming it on YouTube and that will link will be posted on this meeting page later today. Let's see. Feel free to put your name under the attendees list. If you would like. Let's see, in terms of announcements, we have an hyper ledger webinar with info system that's today actually the very next hour after this call so there's information to join there. And as well, wanting to continue getting the word out about the second hyper ledger Indie summit on September 7. This is a follow up to the first one which was held in June and that one served to open the dialogue about the future of Indie and this one will, we'll talk about the discussions that followed that first one and and action items to take in the three key areas of the technical marketing and regulation funds. So definitely looking forward to that one. Sean, I know you put this one on the list. Did you want to jump in and speak about that briefly. Yes, but I have to find the mute button first. Thank you. So, IW is coming up in October. And right now, obviously we're in the doldrums of summer. But I'm going to put a post on both discord and the mailing list to see if folks want to share a who's going. But more importantly, what are the topics or goals and objectives and want to get out of IW this October. I believe if those who don't know internet identity workshop, it is a twice a year gathering of the clans in the identity space, not just decentralized identity although that's a big part of it we also have open ID folks a lot folks. People working on things like Kerry and other technologies. It is an unconference so it's unstructured in the sense that folks get together and every morning. We build the agenda together. And if I have an idea for a session and Shar has an idea for a session they're pretty close maybe we join forces and have our meeting together. It's a pretty great event. And just trying to understand for hyper ledgers purposes, who's going and what are the big topics that we want to cover. So I'm going to send that out later, but um, yeah. Great. Yeah, thank you so much. All right, are there any other announcements or anything anybody would like to bring up before we jump into our working group updates. All right, let's see so today we're just going to go over highlights from working groups that we track and then leave time for anyone to speak up if they would like to report on specific updates from from working groups that they're attending or knowledgeable about and so we'll jump jump right into that and then leave time at the end for anybody who wants to elaborate or bring up other other progress updates. Let's see so in the areas working group they've been talking about did rotation and did peer three. And coordinating the updates of unqualified dids as well as areas marketing I know there was a survey that went out recently so discussing the results of that in areas cloud agent Python user group talking about using public dids like did web dids for did come connections and unqualified peer dids in in Akapai. Lots of PRs as well getting merged in for in during the Akapai maintainers meeting so it's been great to have that as a separate time to to focus on getting those moving separate from the user group meetings. Let's see in a non creds. They're talking about removing the Ursa dependencies there as well as Ursa has been end of life and split out into the different projects that that it serves. That's a highlight of some of the hyper ledger working group status updates in the to IP they had a recent all members meeting. They had a guest speaker went into who was recently a speaker on this thing. And he talked about digital trust in the age of generative AI and discussed how will these models and technologies change our, our digital world and the key ideas of digital trust what should our next steps be as a community what is that relationship between generative AI and digital trust systems and how can they work together. I wasn't able to find too many meeting notes about more recent to IP working group meeting so please speak up if you've been to a recent one that you'd like to report on. Yeah, in the diff in the, the diff did come spec working group they met beginning of this month as they're on a first Monday of the month schedule and they've been talking about marketing for did come that it sounds like that primarily happens in the users group but they're also working on a did come book and discussing as well the trust spanning protocol work that's happening in the to IP foundation, as well as layered protocols. So, yeah, that's a some quick highlights about working group progress updates in the community but please speak up if there are other specific groups that I've mentioned or not mentioned that you would like to go into more detail about. I also highlight the fact that the trust spanning work is going to be presented by drumming. In the next call, September 7. Yeah, the other item that that we should mention is that we're working on a personhood paper, which will attempt to draw in a lot of different streams into this paper. To present the problems, as well as the solutions that are being proposed in all sorts of venues across centralized and decentralized approaches over and out. Thank you for for bringing those things up. Yeah, and our next call two weeks from today, we will be joined by drum and read who will talk about the trust any protocol work that's going on in the to IP foundation so looking forward to that. And as well on on future calls we can spend time. Working on and planning for the the personhood white paper that that been mentioned as well. So thank you. Do others on the call have have working groups that they attend that they'd like to report on specifically. All right. As he's Samsung so apart from the trust spanning protocol, there's there's the trust task force as well which is all about your profiles and so we need us the protocol to to get from Yeah, trust service the trust service but what you know what profiles to those trust services have so that's another one that's pretty active. That's that's yeah getting getting stuff done. So I think that's, that's important. And then I don't see met you on here is setting up the credential exchange formats. So that that's out there we have. There will be a blog post in the next couple weeks. We have some level of maturity but we want to get that out. So that others could chime in on on credential exchanges that they're familiar with and add them or update. What's out there so that blog post should be coming from trusted right piece. Oh, that's great. Yeah, thanks for that update. So, last time's call was also on a connected topic so this whole interoperability. Movement is very much alive and obviously today's call is also somewhat related to that. Absolutely. Any other working group status updates or announcements that anybody would like to give before we jump into the presentation. I think I will turn it over to you Trump for your presentation for free to introduce yourself and screen share. We're, we're very glad that you are joining us today. Thank you. Can you see my screen okay. Yes. Okay. Hi everyone broke. Hi, I'm Bo. I'm CEO and founder of movie and thanks for having me here today. I'm just going to go up camera because my bandwidth is a little slow this morning. We depend too much on technology. Speaking of technology for disclaimer, I am not a technologist. My background is actually in chemistry. And then I went on to art conservation. I work for many culture heritage organization around the world, such as UNESCO, and the Getty Trust in Los Angeles did many cultural preservation projects in the Middle East, Eastern Europe, South America and Asia. For a while there, I was traveling a lot to do destination. My friends will jokingly say that I must work for the CIA instead of culture heritage in 2018 along with my co founder Chris Ballinger, we launch movie, a smart movie consortium. The presentation today is very casual. So if you have questions, go ahead and ask during the presentation. Don't wait until the end. So let me proceed here. A brief history about Moby and why we are working on cross industry in top ability and business automation. I'll use the two terms interchangeably in top ability and business automation. So after we've launched in 2018, most of our history went back to to 16 and 17. Many of the now Moby members were very excited about blockchain and experimented with many proof of concepts. We all found out that putting a vehicle data service onto a chain that was the easy part technology was not a problem. But these applications weren't able to scale. And that was due to, I think, three main reasons. One, the industry needs standards standards on how to identify vehicle, people things trips. When does the trip begin when does it end and how do you connect the trip from the beginning to the end and how do you settle transactions, all those needs standards to the technology. But they were building centralized what to platforms, and we're not able to convince others to go on to them. For example, one of the automakers spend a lot of money building a mass multimodal platform, and couldn't get other automakers to go on to them. The third one built a supply chain platform. But couldn't convince other to go on to it, since it's behind firewall. A third one I talked to, it's a logistic company, and a huge one in base in Europe, spend many, many millions building a logistic platform. Again, couldn't convince other logistic platforms to go on to it. There are numerous examples, not just in mobility in order industries as well telecoms and all that. What we learn is that centralized platforms for enterprise solutions don't scale. What we've learned in the past couple decades is that we don't want to put our business on to someone else's platform. That means we use our data and we lose our control over them and we can't commoditize them in the way that we would like them to do. And the third reason is that, although most anything can be put onto a blockchain. However, most things like customer PII and business sensitive business information should not be put on to a chain. So if a blockchain is used as critical, we think, well, for example, every culture has a chicken and rice recipes right if you Google it there's hundreds of different way of cooking chicken and rice is how you cook it is what matters. So at Moby, we use blockchain only for decentralized identifiers or did registry. Without our numbers, we are creating the standard for for interoperability business automation, and we're building the community owned and operated work through infrastructure to do all these interoperability and communication with the industry. This cross industry interoperability important. Most of the productivity gain in the last 50 years came from business automation of internal processes, and that was just digitization. The goal was from automation of extended value chains, involving unrelated or untrusted parties. And even for those, they tend to be with a couple or very small group of organizations using centralized platforms, and therefore they're not scalable to industry wide, much less cross industry. As the connected ecosystem, there are hundreds of thousands, if not millions of service providers and governmental agencies, they all have a unique databases and processes and their regulations on how to handle business and customer data. So these organizations have billion dollars organization, billion dollars companies, and some of them like a small mom and pop that operations that provide services like smoke jet, for example, or making the nuts and bolts for the operation. So to automate these extended value chains across all the different industry. We need solutions that are affordable. That has low barrier to entry for everyone. And of course we need verifiable identity. I don't need to tell this working group that and claims that are recognized and accepted by all industries. At Moby we are currently working with telecoms insurance grid providers and semiconductors consortia as well. And we continue to talk to the other industry, open to talk to any, any industry that you could think up would love to be introduction. The picture from the beginning has been the same for us until now is that the convergence of the technologies you see here on the screen will permit any entity, a person, a vehicle, a device, or a piece of infrastructure to have a trusted identity that can directly and securely transact with another connected entity, and in doing so not having to go through someone else centralized platform and trusted identity. Once you have that is, and you linked it with location into a verifiable trip that will enable a paper use economy that we call the new economy of movement. I don't think we need to talk about why this is important. I think everybody underscore agree that trusted identity is important. And I think everybody's seen this cartoon that was published in July fifth of 1993, which is pretty insightful, considering, and that same years a few months before that same year April 30 of 1993 was the first time the worldwide web was made available to the general public. So just a few months later. And I think we all seen this cartoon. So I can skip that slide for cross industry into our ability to happen the solution needs the five things that are listed here. We need zero trust authentication. So that means every entity must be identified and authenticated for every transaction and our data and credentials and claims must be verifiable. So privacy, of course for record story compliant, and the ability to limit access to intended recipient only data security and selectively disclose. We want to push the data to the edge we don't want to have to open up the databases to do transaction. We want to push the data out and do edge transaction and the ability to selectively disclose and verify information at the moment of transaction only. So not having to store data before during or after each transaction is extremely important for us as well. Don't want to be a honeypot for any, any cyber security risk. The solution to be affordable and scalable and extensible. So that means the solution has to be standard space and platform agnostic that works with any legacy system. So that there's no costly new infrastructure requirement, especially for the small businesses that is in the ecosystem. So centralization here. I'm not talking about the technology. I'm talking about not wanting centralized platforms owned by one company. We want the infrastructure to be community owned and operated. And to address all the requirements that were listed in the previous page. We've been working on the solution which we call the self seven digital twins, or SSDT's. The concept of digital twins was introduced by NASA back in the 60s. So a digital twins is a digital representation of a system or an object that capture static and near real time data throughout his lifetime. So for us as self solving digital twins is a digital twin that can self generate verifiable credentials. They are also translated encrypted lock data votes and only accessible by the owner or the controller of the SSDT. And they have the ability to authenticate identity and selectively disclose pertinent information as verifiable credentials for transactions at the edge. Instead of opening up a centralized databases, data is pushed to the edge for transaction, and we are using dates and VC standard. So therefore, our ecosystem can use the internet for transaction and existing infrastructure instead of building new infrastructure. So if you look at the requirements from the previous page, the self solving digital twins, SSDT's fulfill pretty much all of them. They use zero trust authentication. They are made up of data privacy and security. They are standard space so that everybody know how to communicate with each other. And they are affordable because they don't we don't have the user don't have to build a new infrastructure SSDT's can be a web app or a an app that you can download onto your device of choice. And the last thing we need to address is is how not to create centralized platform. Any questions so far. Yeah, I'm having trouble understanding a self sovereign digital twin. If it's a natural person. So you're saying as a natural person. I can have a self sovereign digital twin. How do I that that that has the same authenticity same verifiable credential. How do I prove that I am as a natural person, a digital twin of myself. How does that digital twin authenticate how do they prove that it is who they say they are. So how do you do identity binding with a digital twin of an identity when it's a natural person. So you, the natural person, we would have course realize on the government issues credentials. And then right now we are working with motor vehicle registration. We are hoping the first step in doing registration and type link of a vehicle and then connected to the owner. And then using, let's say the driver license issues by a DMV or the motor vehicle authority. And then be able to do register dates on to the itn and then use the topia to onboard your SSDT and be able to communicate with others and I can walk through an example later. As an IOT example so far, until we're not working directly with the the person yet because the first thing we do is a B2B for our members only and then they have to work with the end customers as well. So I can walk through that authentication as an IOT and I think the person would be the same thing. Daniel. Yeah, I get the feeling that digital twin concept is not just limited to natural person. No, I think digital twin is everything but natural persons. If it's an IOT, a digital twin is or of a vehicle, it's probably VIN based right. The digital twin of a thing is usually serial number based or MAC address based or something like that. But the digital twin of a natural person is, you know, I come from a biometrics background is behavioral or biological characteristics. I don't know how those are digitally twin, unless you have literally a twin, which has a very similar but different DNA anyhow that I could see an SSDT for everything but a natural person I just don't buy it, but anyhow that's just me. So I see the SSDT as a file cabinet. And I can generate an SSDT and then let's say I bring my vehicle to a, what is it a maintenance shop. Switch out the battery for me and the maintenance shop then would give me a verifiable credential that they sign and I sign that they switch out a battery for me that has a three years warranty. Then that is a verifiable credential that I can store in my SSDT for future reference for example. So I don't see it as like a thing that can act on my own I still control it and I can use it to store verifiable credentials for anything from my driver license to the maintenance of my vehicle to my doctor appointments to reservation for restaurants and. Yeah, I don't want to dwell on this but what do you describe who's a wallet, not a digital twin. The digital twin by definition is a digital representation of an object or a system. So if you can make you can do that that collect data statics of near real time, and then you can have it generate a verifiable. No, well, like I said I don't want to dwell on this, a digital twin of a vehicle let's say is so that you want to do some modeling and simulation without the real vehicle, you create a digital twin of it with all the characteristics that you need for this simulation let's say where this training exercise. So, so that's a digital twin, we are now doing a self solving digital twin. Again, this is, this is the closest terminology that we could come to to describing it, but it is, it is a new concept so it's hard to describe it in different ways and open to hear what you think also. The fact that it is a wallet does not preclude it from becoming. I mean, a digital twin is too much said, but you know, because it may not contain everything about the object that is representing meaning it's not a faithful digital copy of every characteristic of the physical object, including a natural person. Which is sort of an impossible dream in a certain sense because the physicality of the world precludes us from creating a true digital twin, but for the purposes of business interaction, there are certain characteristics that are more important than others. And those may be put into a wallet and even the wallet could be as as tram already put it, because it is a edge based system. That could be the repository of a digital twin, a wallet. So there is nothing that says that a wallet cannot be used to implement a digital twin. But again, you know, the I mean, my main point is that there is not going to be a it is a digital twin in the sense that it is going to be a reduced but significant repository of certain characteristics, including a reflection of the real time nature. Meaning if my network falls below a certain amount, then obviously that is going to be reflected in my in my financial profile so that, you know, I cannot make certain types of transactions or even my network goes above a certain amount. But that doesn't capture me as a person completely obviously and nor can it purport to capture even as per se an object as a car because the car. Yeah, so that's that's all we are saying. Yeah, I agree with a lot of things you said. I even, you know, in life, we all have more than one side that allowed one person to see everything about us. So so one person might see one side of you and another person can see another side of you. And, and I think, you know, it's we calling it this but we have a very specific definition of what this is. It's just like any, any paper you have the glossary upfront and we describe what a self sovereign digital twin is for for what we're doing. And essentially, what you see here is there's a topia and there's it and it and it's only for this registry. And so topia is where the self sovereign digital twins reside and be able to issue verifiable credentials. And that, you know, you can have as many digits as you want, you can create it to for your education for your restaurant for your doctor for your bank. And, and all that can be stored as different VCs when you transact with entities and store into in your SSTT, and that this is the definition that we have for SSTT, you know, in our ecosystem. So let me go back to that. So we, we are technology agnostic. So therefore we don't endorse any particular blockchain 10 years from now, we don't know which blockchain is going to be around so I still have a floppy disk that has my thesis on it. So, so this is why. And then also the proof of concept from 1516 and 17 proof that blockchain works for what we're trying to do. The most exciting and important thing was important is of course how blockchain is being used for mobile work through infrastructure you see the three layers here the bottom layer is the blockchain protocols. We don't build that we lead that to the experts to do we building the second layer, the integrated trust network. The only job that it and has is to create and register did onto blockchains and right now we using a fabric and hyper ledger. I'm sorry fabric and Ethereum. And then just think of the IT like a phone book. I guess the public communication channel. It's been a while since any of us have seen a phone book. I can't tell how old everybody is but I still remember the yellow pages and the white pages being printed and dropped up my front door. So once you decide to do business with a entity, you pick up the phone to call them then you communicate in the private communication channel sitopia. Use variable credentials and zero knowledge proofs to for data privacy. For example, I don't think I need to go into zero knowledge proofs here do I. I don't think we can, because it probably takes a few days. I'm not a technologist so I can sum up what I know and give you an example of pilot we did in a couple minutes if you like if not I can skip it as well. You can skip it but I'm not the only person on the call so. All right. So, this is, let me give you. This is is really busy but essentially this slide is illustrating what we exactly are trying to do. So, along with our members we are building sitopia and it and and our members run nodes for both it and and sitopia. The most important thing to remember about this is that the pre existing web service layer and this this example here is for the motor vehicle authorities for registration and type link of a vehicle, but it should be the same for for any use case. So the existing web service layer and the legacy system layer remain the same way. This is done on purpose for easy adoption. Each organization has their own way of doing things and how to handle business processes and what to do with data customer PII and all that. We don't go in and tell them how to change the process what they need to do. But what we, we're doing is that we creating sitopia SSDT that everybody can use to communicate with each other using their web service layer. Some DMVs still use paper base. So if they still insist on doing that. This, of course, is not going to be useful for them. But we are working with states to hopefully push e registration and e type link as an acceptable way of registering vehicle. Any questions on that. So, typically, we see both sitopia or layer three and layer two being implemented by one organization. And we think that as having too much knowledge to put the pieces of the puzzle together. And so we actually split that up into two different organization. We have three members in good standing up a little bit of each of the company, and of course later on, maybe in a year or so, we'll open it up to outside funders as well. And then of course the VC arms of Moby members as well. Because we can't do this based on membership dues alone. That's, we've been doing that up until now. We've been working groups. We have a few, as you can see, and we've been working on many different standards are involved in and VCs. And we have done a few pilots recently, we completed last year a pilot with the EU Commission, and the EU Commission was interested in a vehicle. We're identifying the carbon dioxide emission that's coming out of the vehicle and reported to the European state and, of course, the commission as well. And then the another pilot which is finished this year was for the dealer floor plan audit, the dealership. The company that you come across that has vehicles for sale. Every single vehicle is financed by a finance company could be a bank. And the finance company wants to know that the vehicles are still on the lot and has not been sold. There are a few bad apple, as always. There's some dealership that would sell the vehicle and they don't return the money to the bank right away. And as they agreed upon, they sometimes keep the money to do all the things with it. And so because of that, a lot of the banks would send somebody physically and what they do is counting cars, and that process is manual. We've done that often because somebody has to physically be on site. And it's not very, very trustworthy as well, because sometimes dealers can bring the vehicle back onto the lot and to be counted. And according to Accenture, if this process can be automated within the US alone, we can save up to have a billion dollars a year if we don't do it manually. What we did was that we had the self sovereign digital twins of the bank of the lenders, and they paint the vehicle and ask the vehicle, are you in this geofence location. And the vehicle and the geofence location is a pre agree upon as the dealership. And the vehicle would answer back saying yes or no, I am in the geofence or not. And if it's yes, fantastic if it's no it could possibly be driven around by a potential customer as a test drive and location as you know is PII so nobody wants to store that. Let's say the vehicle is being ping every hour for three days straight and at 3am on each day, which is when the vehicle should be on the lot at 3am. So keep saying no I'm not then there probably is some problem and the lender needs to follow up with their own protocol as what to do next, but the vehicle is around at night. And then, then it's a safe bet that the vehicle is still on the lot and not been sold out of trust. So that was a pilot that we did recently. Any questions on that. So, I can stop right here or I can go through an example of how we do a verifiable credentials between an organization and a battery, for example, if you want. That sounds great. Okay. All right, so this is not meant for you to read. So ignore the small fun I'll walk through real quickly about right now I don't know if you heard of the battery passport requirements yet. Government either make policy that our carrots stick. Right. And so, in EU Commission have been talking about this for a few years now. They just signed a regulation recently that say by 2027. Any company that bring a battery into the market for use. And it's not just for vehicle. It could be for your cell phone and your computer as well. If you bring the battery into circulation for being used. So you have to provide a battery passport for that specific battery goes back to where the minerals was mine. Was that child labor or not, how much recyclable material do you have there. The requirements is by 2026. There are three things corporate and nickel and copper that certain percentage that have to be recycled by the manufacturer. So a lot of data has to be going into this battery passport. And if you don't have that you're not allowed to sell the battery in Europe by 2027. Really big task and worry some for many of the battery manufacturer as you can see. And then in the US there's not a policy if you buy a vehicle that was made in the US. If you buy a vehicle, then you get $7500 incentive cash back. And right now, what auto manufacturer are doing is they have the engineers signed these could verifiable credentials, physically signed to attested a fact that the vehicle was made in the US. I don't see any problem with self self verification do you. If you're looking aside, I don't think that solution is scalable. So within Moby we are working with our numbers to create a global battery passport system. And in it, of course you have standards like the battery birth certificate. The birth certificate for a vehicle or battery is, is pretty boring just like yours or mine birth certificate. It has, when were you born, how much you wait, that kind of stuff and whom, who is your maker is along the way what happened to to you, where you go to college, where you work. That's the interesting part same things for the vehicle, the battery, what happened along the way is more interesting. So let's see you have a battery manufacturer and you have OEM here stand for automakers one two and three. And they all have their own legacy system, and to communicate with each other they all generate a SSDT to communicate the battery manufacturer create a battery. Then it send a message to his own SSDT asking a dip to be created for the battery. The SSDT of the battery manufacturer send a message to Satopia, asking a dip to be recreated. Satopia then send a message to ITN, the ITN creator did register it to the nodes and then send the message back to Satopia, who then send the dip to the battery manufacturer SSDT. The SSDT then directly send a dip and deposit it into the battery SSDT. Next thing is the manufacturer then create a battery birth certificate because they create a battery. They need to do that to, and then change it to, of course, a standardized communication language using the ITN protocol. That becomes a variable credential for a battery birth certificate, then send it to again to the battery to store it. Then come let's say an OEM for four wants to know before installing a battery into his vehicle. They want to know if the battery is who it say it is and it has records for the battery passport. They ask the battery to prove who it is. The battery then present the dip and the battery birth certificate back to the automaker. The automaker instead of trusting the battery, then send a message to Satopia to verify if this battery is who we say it is. Satopia then send a message to the ITN, ask for verification, ITN verifies it, Satopia send a message back to say it's safe, you can install the battery and go on your way. Let's say we in a sharing economy, which as you know, a few automakers are using similar battery as each other now. If one comes along wants to install the same battery in his vehicle, there's the same verification as well, asking the battery to self verify and then that can be jet using Satopia and the ITN. So that's just an example of the birth certificate being verified. Any questions. That was really interesting. So, so why specifically did electric vehicles make a good choice as an industry for Moby to work with. Moby is a smart mobility consortium and many of our members are worried about having to have a battery passport. And they need to have a solution that is interoperable, not just for themselves but for all the different hundreds of thousands of different suppliers that they have. And those suppliers also work with multiple automakers, not just one. So how do we make sure that they don't have to keep onboarding themselves onto centralized platform to communicate with each other. So, this is just a use case that we have to come up with a solution because our members need to have battery passport by 2027. But this ecosystem as you can tell can be done for many use cases. What working groups need to sit down with a subject matter expert to nominate a use case, come up with what data is needed for each one of those use case and come up with standard schemers to be able to do everything in the verbal credential. Yeah, absolutely. It sounds like is the regulation in Europe that's coming in in 2027 but in the US the incentive already exists for this battery passport I see. Yes, but it's right now in a scalable because EVs and still being very small percent of ice vehicle but by 2030. Most automakers are vouching to make only EVs that problem is going to be much more exacerbated. And we need a solution. And many states to will have their own solution as well that requirements for reporting. And how do you make sure that a vehicle, for example, one of our members operate fleets of vehicles, EVs, they purchase EVs and rent them out to many companies, and the companies that they cover 10 different states. And right now the problem is that when they transport a vehicle from one state to another the states don't talk to each other. And so the registration and typing is a mess for them. So, yeah, how do you make sure that when it's not just state to state within a state you can have hundreds of different jurisdiction that doing things differently. And that driver. Yeah, that plate is going to look different to so. Right. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. But in terms of getting the, you know, driving from state to state. Doesn't a infrastructure exist already for that purpose, especially for larger vehicles like commercial trucks, and also private cars that, you know, you can drive. You can drive to LA without too much trouble. But I suspect what you're talking about is. I mean, I got a little bit of the battery. But certificate and all that, but isn't there more to be done in terms of the source of materials. Not just where it was manufactured and which, which are obviously also impinges upon all manufactured goods, because they are usually sourced from multiple places. Which have problems because of slave labor or, you know, other kinds of functions. Definitely. So, so yes, the battery passport has to have a lot of that information where the material was mine, no child labor was used. So that needs to be verified by authority, and then authority usually has vendors that they approve. So whoever make the battery needs to work with authorized vendors that can go in and assess. And then they, that has to be a verifiable credentials that enter into the system. So just one example of a verifiable credential, a battery along the whole lifetime can have hundreds if not thousands of variable credentials store in this SSBT. As for vehicle yes you can drive from one country to another from one state to another. The registration of the vehicle is required by every government that you need to register and pay a tax on it every year registration fee, and then there's insurance as well. For example, within the US, you cannot register a vehicle unless you have proof of insurance. And right now you can buy insurance and pay a monthly fee, a monthly installment. And that is a huge, that a huge problem in the US alone there's 13 billion dollars every year. That's that's being going through people who buy insurance pay for it for the first month, go to the state to prove that they have insurance get their vehicle register and then stop paying insurance. And that problem is huge within the US alone is 13 billion dollars. So, so there's a lot of things that if you have verifiable credential and that can track and be able to to prove many, many things to be much more efficient, and also fraud prevention as well. So here in the New York State, if you allow your insurance to lapse the insurance providers usually communicate with the DMV and they have very heavy penalties, including suspension of your own license. But that may not be the case in all states, we understand. Thanks for all state. However, we did, we have a partner that's an insurance consortium did a test on this, and they found that within the state DMVs a third, a third, that's 33.3% of the VIN number that they have on files is wrong. So, so yes, we have the laws and we have penalties, but the reporting in real time is really hard. And state have laws that if a lot of time by the time they get the report, they're not sure if it is is correct anymore what if somebody else just move on to a different insurance company. And for them to communicate in near real time to get near real time data. And that's the issues that states are having. I guess we are running out of time. So, I did have another question which was to do with recovery, if everything is stored on the edge. If you lose your edge device. How do you recover your credentials. I mean this is a problem for anything that is confined purely to the edge. So we will work with our members on some guidelines when it comes to key management, and then maybe some things are standardized and some things is going to be based on the company. They need to, of course, have their own protocol on how to do keys management as well. So we're working on that. And then Satopia SSDT would have his own key management services probably so entirely up to the business and then the end consumer on how they want to do that. But it's not just the keys it's also the credentials themselves. Yes, they are stored only on some device that disappears. So if let's say the DMV issues me a driver license, then I have a credential, and then the DMV does too. And the DMV will store that credential in their own SSDT that could be implemented in their cloud. It can be implemented anywhere they want. And then I can have a copy of the credential in my SSDT. So there's more than one copy. So it's a centralized solution backing up this edge solution. Well, but then that's the thing in this ecosystem is that we're not telling people to go do away with their centralized platform. They can continue to do that. It's just one thing they need to have credentials to do communicate, and they don't even have to push any data out, right. And that tram has a driver license, and then all the data within the driver license can be can be at the DMV. I mean, we see this with natural persons if I have 10 different very and I think this is where it was going five 10 different verifiable credentials from 10 different issuers. You know, Vipin asked and I believe as well if that goes away if my wallet goes away which you keep on you continuously call an SSDT. I have to go back each of those 10 issuers might have what you're calling an SSDT. I think that is their own wallets that have those verifiable credentials in it I'd have to go back to all 10 to re establish the 10 credentials that I had in my wallet. I think that's that's the question. And what you're saying makes sense that the issuer preserves a copy of what they issued. The, the individual or the automobile in this case is the only one that has an aggregate of all the VCs that it got for its battery for its insurance for its OEM status or whatever. But if that if the car wallet goes away or SSDT is you call it, then how do you, how do you re establish you have to go back to all the issuers that issued all those different credentials to that while. So, so the, I think every single use case need the expert to sit down and determine how these things are done. And I'm sure it's not going to be very different from how they are done now except they will be done and using digital and verifiable credentials. And so all these business processes needs to be standardized and and be able to and the front app the UI needs to be built as well. So, I can't answer for every single credentials, but in the ecosystem, the way we are thinking get through is everything has to have a data standard. How do you re issue a VC, how do you claim something that needs to be done within the working group to work out the process. Yeah, fair enough. I mean, as we're talking here, my example of a natural person. There, if there's some transactional audit that is that I could go back to and say, it doesn't have the PII of what credentials were issued. But the fact that I have these 10 or 12 or 17 vcs. So if my wallet ever went away, I could go back to that transaction audit on blockchain or some verifiable data registry. So I could rebuild my wallet and say, oh, I go back to these 17 issuers to get to get the something like that. But yeah, as you said, it's some business process that has to be established. Definitely. But the internet is only 30 years old and look at how much we have done already. No, the worldwide web is the internet was started in the 60s. Like 60, 69. So, so yes, the worldwide web 30 years old and look at how much we've done so far with that. I have a feeling in 10 years. This will all be natural right now is exciting with working on it from the beginning. Yep. I think that's why we're all here we agree. Well, there has to be some kind of a user experience solution, which is relatively frictionless instead of spending 20 hours on the phone with 10 agencies, you may be able to do this with a push of a button. But after a certain cliff is, you know, of verification is passed, like, for example, through one of your methods, Dan, the, you know, a biometric, which everybody is afraid of, but looks like that was the only thing that was possible to be implemented for example in India with the other and other things of course they have their problems but you know you need some underlying infrastructure to be able to do all this. Yes. Yep. Yes. Yeah, absolutely. I think we're, I see we're a bit over time. But thank you so much Tram for for joining us and giving a great presentation and great discussion. Thank you all for having me have a good rest of your. Thank you and thanks everyone for for joining and giving working group updates as well in two weeks, please join us for drum and reeds presentation on the trespassing protocol so we look forward to seeing you all then thanks again tram and and thanks everybody have a good.