 Hi, welcome to the All Things LGBTQ Interview Show, where we interview LGBTQ guests who are making important contributions to our communities. All Things LGBTQ is taped at Orca Media in Montpelier, Vermont, which we recognize as being unceded indigenous land. Thanks for joining us and enjoy the show. On this year's ballot, Vermonters are going to be asked to vote on what has been referred to as Proposition 5, which is an amendment to Vermont's Constitution. And as we get closer to the election, I am guessing there will be a lot of discussion and probably more than a little misinformation about what Proposition 5 is and what it will do. So joining us is Charlie from Planned Parenthood. Welcome, Charlie. Thanks for having me. And Indy, who works with the ACLU. Welcome, Indy. Thank you. I am so delighted that both of you agreed to participate in this conversation. And where I would like to start is Proposition 5, which the media has been attentive to referring to as the Reproductive Liberty Amendment. Exactly what is it? And what will it do? So the Reproductive Liberty Amendment, also called Prop 5 or Proposal 5, is a proposed amendment to the Vermont Constitution that would protect every Vermonters' right to make their own reproductive choices. And so what that means in practice is that it would protect the right to become pregnant and carry a pregnancy to term, as well as choose or refuse contraception, sterilization, and abortion care. And so we have made our way through the legislature with the Reproductive Liberty Amendment. We have qualified for the ballot, and so Vermont voters will have the final say on the Reproductive Liberty Amendment in November. So that seems fairly simple and straightforward, but I also have to ask, isn't that some of what the work was that was done last year creating statutory changes? So why is a constitutional amendment also needed? And Indy, since you're with the ACLU, I'm going to throw that one to you. Yeah, so this Reproductive Liberty Amendment goes a step further than what's currently in the statutes. It is with the current state of reproductive liberty in the news and just like what's happening federally, we want to make this greater protection by enshrining it in our Constitution. And by doing that, it means that the government cannot interfere without a compelling state interest. So it makes up the reproductive autonomy and those choices more protected than what the statutes currently provide. So if in fact the current U.S. Supreme Court does overturn the Roe v. Wade precedent, what will the passage of Proposition 5 mean for people here in Vermont? And either one of you can take that one. I can speak a little bit to that and then Indy, fill in any gaps please. So if Roe v. Wade is further hollowed out or overturned by the U.S. Supreme Court, our rights will be protected in Vermont. We, as you said before, have a statute protecting our reproductive rights on the books right now. But what the Reproductive Liberty Amendment would really guarantee is that the rights that we have today will be protected tomorrow. We all know and have seen political landscapes change on a dime over the last couple of years, and a law can be repealed in one legislative session. Whereas a constitutional amendment, as you've all heard or perhaps seen with Prop 5, we've been at work since 2019 and still have a ways to go before our Constitution is amended. It's a near permanent process, and so it will really solidify for the future our reproductive rights in Vermont. Indy, do you have more to add to that? I think Charlie did a great job at describing that, yeah. The ACLU may need to steal her away. So as the debate continues, I know that messaging is going to be very important to ensure that people are getting accurate information about what the Reproductive Liberty Amendment will and will not do. What are some of the key components that you're hoping that people are going to hear? And I'll give this to you, Charlie, because I know that you've been working on this specifically. Yes, so I have the privilege of managing the campaign to pass the Reproductive Liberty Amendment, and you look at any poll, you will see that people in Vermont truly value reproductive freedom, and so it's strongly supported in every corner of our state. We're not trying to tell Vermonters anything that they don't already know, which is that reproductive decisions are central to the course of their lives, and that we should all have the freedom to make those for ourselves and choose for ourselves whether or when to have children. So that's really what we want people in Vermont to know after this campaign is over. So I know that when Vermont during the 80s tried to do a constitutional amendment, which was lovingly referred to as the Equal Rights Amendment, and it would ensure gender equity, that the people who were opposing it went to great lengths to distort what the amendment would or would not potentially do. Are you already starting to see any messaging that is deliberately trying to misrepresent the Reproductive Liberty Amendment? Yes, I would say all the time there's just constant misinformation about what this amendment would do for people. It is just an amendment to protect the right to become pregnant, carry a pregnancy to term, and choose or refuse contraception, sterilization, and abortion care. That's all that it does, plain and simple. Yes, and the meaning of the Reproductive Liberty Amendment has been rooted in decades of case law. It's not like we sat and scribbled out something and legislators move forward with it. These words have real meaning behind them from Roe, from Planned Parenthood, BKC, from plenty of other cases, and the purpose statement from Vermont legislators. We are going to be working very hard over the next nine months to make sure that Vermont voters know exactly what the amendment does and can make their voices heard at the ballot box. Are there any specific messages that you've already seen in an effort to distort what this amendment would do that you would like to address now? And then we can talk about, when they start showing up in public forums, how somebody might respond to them. That's a great question. I think the biggest argument that we get about the amendment, which I think is kind of very interesting, is that the amendment is radical, that it goes far beyond what we have protected today. And the reason why I think that's really interesting, and then I'm noting it here, is that all the Reproductive Liberty Amendment does is enshrine the protections that we have today in our Constitution for the future. We are not changing the way that reproductive healthcare is distributed today. What we're really doing is recognizing that those liberties are important to the people of Vermont today and should be protected for future generations. So if I start hearing distortions, I should respond to them immediately and say, no, this merely ensures that despite any change in the political regime, my rights have indeed been protected here in Vermont. And y'all are welcome to come join us here. So if somebody wanted to become more actively involved in advocating for the passage of the Reproductive Liberty Amendment, how would they go about it or to whom should they reach out? Go ahead, Indy. Deliver the call to action. Yeah, so the best way to get involved is to visit ReprolibertyVT.org and pledge to vote yes on the Reproductive Liberty Amendment. Okay. Keep it simple. Yep. And I will ask you to send me that specific site and we'll ensure that it gets posted during our interview. So as we're ending our time together, is there anything that either one of you would like to say about the Reproductive Liberty Amendment, the process, or anything that we haven't already covered? I would love to just talk about how this intersects with LGBTQ plus issues. So the core of this amendment is that we should all, no matter what our identities are, have reproductive freedom protected. And the government should not be able to create or perpetuate systems of inequity. So just to note like that vision hasn't been a reality for LGBTQ plus people as well as BIPOC and people with disabilities and many others. So this amendment is a really amazing step forward in addressing some of the inequity that those groups have faced. So Charlie, do you have anything? Yeah. I think Indy's making a really great point and that as a queer person who is managing this campaign, I think a lot about how the Reproductive Liberty Amendment would impact me and my community. And having control over your reproductive decisions can really affirm your gender identity, your sexual orientation, and it can also do the exact opposite if those decisions are taken away from people. And it's just a really significant impact that reproductive decisions have on people's lives and their bodies and how we see our identities reflected back at us. And so I am really, really happy that I got the chance to connect with you, Keith, and talk about this because I think this amendment is really critical for everyone in Vermont, including LGBTQ plus people. So I can expect that when we get to start the process for another constitutional amendment this time taking sexual orientation, gender identity, disability status, sex, gender, and also elevating it to the Vermont constitutional level for protection, that I'm going to get to come back and interview both of you again. That sounds wonderful. Yes. I'm looking forward to it. Okay. With that, thank you so much for spending this time with me. And I'm looking forward to our next amendment initiative. Thank you. Welcome. Oscar Newberger, who's a return guest, Oscar is a former youth edition panelist who has become an adult, I guess, and is kind enough to return to the show to check in with us and tell us what he's been up to. So it's great to see you. Yes, it's good to see you too. I don't really get out much these days because COVID and everything. Exactly. And you're no longer in Vermont. You're living in Rhode Island now. Tell us a little about what you're up to there. So I'm here in Rhode Island for college. It's a really weird state. Rhode Island, the weather is really bizarre. There are no mountains, so it's windy. The ocean is there, so it's humid. And everybody freaks out when we get two inches of snow, which I've found very comical. It was supposed to get frosty overnight, and there was so much salt on the roads. It was crunching under the tires to drive, which it's just been as a lifelong Vermont. Well, almost lifelong. It's been pretty funny to see how other people deal with the norm, I suppose, where we're from. So I'm here for college. I go to the New England Institute of Technology, NEIT. Yeah, I'm here getting my associate's degree and they call it paramedic technology, but it's just like paramedic school. So I'll finish in two years. I'll finish with a, it provided that I passed the national exam and everything. I'll finish with a degree and my national registry paramedic certificate and then a Rhode Island license. Probably I don't know that I'll stay in Rhode Island, but I'll probably end up with one. Yeah, that's my next question. You're already certified as an EMT in Vermont, you said. Yes. So what happens after you finish this degree, you're going to finish at the end of next year, right? The end of 2023. Yeah, so I guess that's next year. Yeah, I mean, I'm exactly certain what I want to do. I know, so the national registry is this government organization that controls everybody and who works in emergency services or emergency medical services, controls and monitors everybody's certifications and whatnot. And so if you are an EMT already and then you become a paramedic, they just bump you up in the system. And then obviously I would have to reapply for a Vermont license if I wanted to work in Vermont. Because the way that it works is you get your certification and you're registered so you can work as an EMT anywhere, but you have to prove that you can work in local regulations by applying for a license. And then when you have your local license, then you can actually work in whatever state you're in. It's a really bizarre system. And I think that we should all just be integrated at this point because if Albuterol works in Vermont, Albuterol works in Florida. But it's interesting that we're still not totally integrated. What made you decide you wanted to be an EMT? That's a really good question. I'm not exactly sure. I wanted to be in medicine, but I was like, I don't really want to go to school for that long. And I don't really want to be a doctor because that's boring. I don't really want to be a nurse because that takes a lot of school. So I was like, oh, I'll go to EMT school. And so I went to the Central Vermont Career Center, which is attached to Spalding High School in Barrie. And I went there for my junior and senior year of high school. My junior year was I was in the EMS program. And so I finished that with my, I finished up that, took the EMT test past the written test and then the practical test, got my registry, got my registry information and stuff. And I was still 17 when that happened. So I got registered when I was 17. And you have to be 18 to be an EMT in Vermont. So, but I wasn't too far off. It was like June the year I was going to turn 18 on my birthdays in October. So it wasn't too much longer. So then over that summer, I didn't get to work. But I then next year, I obviously then COVID, you know, happened. But then my senior year, I was in the Cooperative Education Program over at the Career Center, which basically, they take you and they place you out in the community in your field. So everybody from the Career Center who was there their junior year is now it was eligible to apply for co-op. Obviously, it's an application so they can say no, you can't come into co-op. But I applied, I got accepted. I wasn't surprised that I got accepted because it was just sort of like, you need to have good attendance and I had perfect attendance my junior year. I didn't even, I didn't miss a single day. And then you needed to be in good academic standing. And I was like, on their version of the Dean's List both years, or both terms. And I was in the National Technical Honor Society. So I wasn't really, I wasn't worried about getting it or not. I was just and I was on good terms with the teacher. So I was like, yeah, I think I'm going to get in. I got in. It was great. And so I went out and they got I got placed in the community and I was an EMT intern, technically. But through that, I started working with Waterbury EMS, which is obviously Waterbury Vermont. And I started working with them. And then I they ended up and were like, are you you're a real EMT, right? And I was like, yeah, like, because it was a little bit complicated because they thought that I was on as a student, meaning I wasn't an EMT yet. But it was like, no, I am really an EMT, like I can actually like do stuff. And so I worked with Berrytown EMS, then I worked with Waterbury EMS and Waterbury EMS was like, do you want to just work? Like, do you want to just work here? And I was like, yeah. So it was a weird hiring process. Like, I didn't actually have to like, go through an interview or whatever, because my eight month internship with them was the interview. So I started working with them. And then obviously, I worked working with them, like doing 911 calls and whatnot. And what, and so I was doing 911 calls and everything, responding. And then with all this was happening during COVID, they were like, do you want to go get this extra certification? And you can give the COVID vaccine. So I was like, yeah, of course. So they sent me to go and I did this, like, it was like, I don't even know, it was like four hours of training or something. It was super easy. And then they were like, okay, you can give shots. And so I then I with Waterbury EMS, they sent me out to really, I went all over the state, like I did stuff in, I think it's called Richford, Vermont, which you don't know where that is me either. It's right up by the Canadian border. It's like literally a stone's throw from the community border. And then I was all the way down in Springfield in Brattleboro. And then I was in Brattleboro. Like I was going all over Vermont to give the COVID vaccine. I was doing home visits for homebound people in Waterbury and not really Waterbury and Lamoille County, really. Lamoille and Washington County. And I was doing like testing and stuff. And so I was doing a lot of that. And I actually, when I'm going to be back home in Vermont for spring break, I'm working a vaccination shift because they sell their hooks in me, even though I'm here in Vermont, even though I'm here in Rhode Island, Zach Arvin from Waterbury still has his hooks in me to get me to work the vaccine. So I was like, yeah, I'll make some extra money while I'm back to school. Why not? So if you're certified in Vermont, what led you to get this other degree, this other AA degree with Northeastern Institute of Technology because you want to be nationally certified, which would give you geographical mobility. You could do it everywhere. Yeah. So I'm nationally certified as an EMT and I'm licensed in Vermont as an EMT. And I wanted to become a paramedic. And I knew that from the beginning. Like my first day of EMT school, my end goal was to become a paramedic. I've been an EMT for two years now. So I feel like a lot of people have different opinions about how long you should be an EMT before you become a paramedic. I've been an EMT for two years. I will have been an EMT for almost four years when I graduate with my paramedic. So I feel like I have enough experience. I haven't been so stressed and I haven't found paramedics school to be overwhelmingly challenging. It's obviously challenging because paramedic school is hard, but it's been a challenge that I've been able to rise to. So I feel like I've had enough experience that it's fine. But anyway, I knew that I wanted to become a paramedic from the beginning because paramedics, you can do a lot more procedures and you get to do a lot more stuff. And you're an EMT. A lot of what you're doing is helping out the paramedics. You can't really give a lot of medications. You can't really use a lot of the equipment. You can really like, you can bandage people and you can like give aspirin for stuff like that. But a lot of the time, if for something that's more serious, you're going to have to call for a paramedic anyway to come do stuff. So as a paramedic, you have almost the same scope of practice as a nurse, as an RN. It's just a little bit different and you're working in a different field, obviously like pre-hospital medicine and in-hospital medicine are very different. But I wanted to get my paramedic and I wanted an associate's degree because usually in paramedic school, you can just get a certification. Like EMT is just a certification, just not a degree or anything. But if you get a degree, you, it looks better. It looks better on a resume and they pay and you can make more money as a brand new paramedic. And we're sort of shifting. EMS in general is a very new profession. Like it's only really existed since the 70s. So what does EMS? Emergency medical services. It's really only existed since like 1970 or so. The Ariane, which is the emergency medical technicians, which is the overarching bureaucratic entity that manages everybody. They've only existed since 1970. They just had their 50th anniversary. So it's a very new profession and we're sort of shifting towards paramedics being less technicians and more clinicians. And so like we're seeing in the works right now, bachelor's degree in paramedic sciences. So it's more and more education is being required, which is making, which is, you know, better and better providers being able to provide a higher standard of care, which in my opinion is never a bad thing. It's never a bad thing to provide, want to have a higher standard of care. So I'm, and this school was the closest to home. Like we're provided an associate's degree, only one paramedic program in Vermont that is not an associate's degree. Can you just step back and say that a little more slowly? Oh, I'm sorry. Oh, okay. Yeah. So this school specifically I chose because it's close to home. I'm really close with my, with my family. And so I didn't want to go like too far away to never be able to really see them. It's really close to home. It's it's, there's only one paramedic school, paramedic program in Vermont. And it is that that might not actually be true. There's one that's like taught at a college. There are obviously other ones that are sort of looks like taught, but the best one in Vermont, like the highest accredited one is with Vermont Tech, but it's not a associate's degree. And so, and this one was close. It's highly accredited. They have something like a 90% pass rate on the first try for the NREMT, which is much higher than the national average. I don't know what it is at the top of my head. I'm not that good, but the national average for like the first time taking the exam and passing is a lot lower than like 90%, which is a really good statistic. They have a lot of really cool technology and cool opportunities with internships and whatnot. And so, oh, that really appealed to me. So I applied at the, I applied during my senior year, and they were like, welcome to the program. And I was like, Well, you mentioned your family. And I remember meeting your mother at a trans conference in Maryland a few years ago. And when you came on the show, you, you participated in the self harm episode and the transgender episode where you appeared with two other trans people. And I love that episode. You were very funny. You may not remember, but you made a lot of jokes. Yeah, sounds about right. The message from all of you was, don't ask a lot of stupid questions, Google it. And so I take, you know, I think that's an important message. Yeah. You're studying a lot in Rhode Island. Do you have friends there? It seems like you have a, you had a lot of friends and a strong support system in Vermont. And how, how is, how's Rhode Island for that? It's been a little bit complicated because this is a technical institute. It's a, it's a tech school. So they don't really have a lot of the, your standard college experiences. Like there's not a whole lot, like socially that goes on. And a lot of people are like that they're, they're coming here because they want to change careers. And they're already like in their thirties or whatever. And so really your best opportunity to meet people is through going to classes. But when I'm going to classes, I'm with all the guys who are in my paramedic program. And a lot of them live in the area and they, they commute to the school. There's one guy who's out of state. He lives on campus. So I, I chat with him sometimes, but you know, it's just, it's a little bit, it's a little bit complicated because a lot of the friends that I had have, I still am friends with them that I have in Vermont. We sort of met through like channels of like looking for support, being like trans, being clear, whatever, looking for channels of support and that sort of how we met. And so it's a little bit hard for me to like make friends, I guess, in like a, I share up a conversation with a random individual and then it's whatever. But I don't really feel lonely while I'm here. You know, it's not 1955 where I have to tend to carry your page into chat with people. I can just like randomly, I just can just like tech people if I want to. So I'm not like feeling that lonely. And I have so much to study. I don't really feel that bored. Like I had to cram in the entire nervous system into my brain in like two weeks for my anatomy class. You know, what's the nervous system is you could spend a year studying the nervous system. You know, so I don't really, I don't really have that many friends here. Obviously, my roommate and I are on my roommate and I are on good terms. His name's Garrett. He's cool, whatever. I don't really see him that much because he's in he's in the automotive program here. And so he is on a different campus. And the ITS three campuses, they have this one here in East Greenwich, they have one in Warwick, and they have third one somewhere else. And so I, and so Garrett goes to the campus, all of his classes are on the campus over in Warwick, which is not too far, but so I don't really see him around the building. And I really only see him at like in the evenings when he comes back. You also mentioned in your bio, you spend a lot of time with Krav Maga. Can you tell the audience what that is? I don't know that I would say it's been a lot of my time. I go twice a week. Krav Maga is just, it's a martial art that I just, that I started that I picked up just to sort of in an effort to, I guess, put down roots here. Because I'm still seeing a therapist here. I think mental health care is very important, especially for people who work in my line of work. It's very important. So I'm seeing, still meeting with a therapist here, one who's here. And he was like, I think it's really important as part of being a well-adjusted person is putting down roots for your living, whatever. So I was looking for places to go. So I was like, oh, like, I'll do, like, looking into a martial art. I did Taekwondo when I was much younger than I am now. But I remember liking it and Krav Maga's the studio is right nearby. Krav Maga is a martial art. I don't know all the details of it, but a lot of people take it as self-defense because a lot of the scenarios that they teach you and a lot of the things that they teach you are like practical and you're able to do them even if you're a lot smaller than the person who's attacking you. And so the program that I'm in, they don't really divide us up into weight classes or whatever. So like, I'm five foot 10, you know, I'm not I'm not a small person. And like, I was partnered like the last time with and I'm almost 20 years old, you know, and I was partnered with this girl who's probably, I don't know, 15, 14, 15, you know, five foot four or something. And I was partnered with her for like a choking exercise. I was like, I don't want to like break this poor child. She's like five years younger than me. And the instructor came over and she was like, Oscar, you are being way too nice. And I was like, if a strong breeze blew through here, I think this girl would go flying like a kite. Like I'm worried. But we it was fine. She was great. She she got me back. So it was fine. Did you go to a studio twice a week for lessons who said how it was? Yeah, yeah. Oh, I thought maybe it was like a video game or something. But no, it's hands on. Oh, yeah, it's a we we go to a we go to a studio. It's it's like if you were learning karate, like you would go to a different building to do it. And then there are mats on the floor and you have to wear a dorky little outfit like we have we have we have little outfits that we have to put on. We have belts and everything. The belt system is a lot different for Krav Maga than it is for like karate or whatever. But there is a belt system there yet we have to wear like these dorky outfits and whatever. And then we have to be barefoot, which I don't I don't I don't like being barefoot. I want to I want to have shoes on. I want to have shoes on. But we have to be barefoot on the on the mat, which in a COVID era and anytime bare skin and touching anything, I'm like germs, germs, germs, but they spray down with antiseptic basically constantly. So it's it's totally fine. But well, we're getting to the end of the time, believe it or not. I really appreciate you're checking in with us. Are there any last words that you have for the audience? Um, I guess just like if you are like, I don't know, like you're you're 15, you just came out as trans life's really hard. That's like the hardest point of your life, basically. But, you know, and like that was definitely the hardest part of my life was when I was waiting to start testosterone, I was waiting to get top surgery. And like, you just feel really stuck because high school is the worst. And then you're trans on top of that everything sucks. You know, just like without sounding like a cliche, just, you know, hang in there, see what can happen after high school is, you know, high school is terrible. And I honestly, my honest opinion is that if you enjoyed high school, you're really boring. Nobody who nobody who is a super interesting person enjoyed high school, you know, so not peaking in high school is always a good thing. And there are so many other opportunities out there than than you ever could imagine living in, you know, a small town in Vermont. And even if you don't leave Vermont, there are so many opportunities and so many people in Vermont that you haven't met. Vermont feels like a feels like and is a small place, but it's much bigger if you actually are going out and exploring the place. I've been a testosterone the better part of four years now, and I had to, I had top surgery October of 2020. So I'm at a really great place in my medical transition right now. So I know it's easy for me to say like just hang in there. But you know, I was there, I was there less than less than five years ago, where I was like, I don't know what I even want to do. Like everything is terrible. Like I just feel terrible at the time. Yeah, just just hang in there. There are great people in the world that you can meet and life is really hard sometimes, but it's worth it, I guess. I feel like I've been really successful since my last appearance on this program. So I'm really enjoying what I'm doing right now. And I think that it's important to just at least at least give it to the end of high school. Give it a go. See what you can do once you leave your hometown. Oscar Neuberger, thank you for joining us. Thank you for having me. It was great to see you again, Ann. Thank you. You'll have to come back in and check in again. I know once we can get off the Zoom or whatever, this COVID and everything, it's just everything is a, it's all technology and I still don't know how to use it. It's been two years and I still don't really know how to use Zoom. We'll prevail. We'll try. Thank you. It doesn't seem possible, but it's been 19 years since I had lunch with a new, fresh, enthusiastic young man who was about to become executive director of one of our established organizations. And now they've decided I've done my time. Time to let someone else take a position of leadership. So for this very special edition, please welcome back Peter Jacobson, who has been the executive director of Vermont Cares. Welcome, Peter. Hi. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited about this conversation. I love Vermont Cares and I've loved to get to work there. So happy to share what I just brought to my life. All right. So we will just start right where 19 years ago when you went to work for Vermont Cares, what was it about Vermont Cares that you said, that's what I want to do? I, so I was raised not in Vermont, but in another rural town. And I was raised with functionally zero education about HIV. And that made me furious. I was functionally told that I would inevitably get HIV by the time I was 30 and that I would die. I knew that wasn't the case. And I worked to educate my classmates through high school, through college. And I knew from a very young age that I wanted to work in HIV advocacy. It felt exciting and dynamic. And I got to volunteer with Vermont Cares before I started as a staff member. And when the first job came open, I absolutely pounced on the opportunity. It was my dream job. So when you first went into Vermont Cares, and I heard you reference that people believe that you would have AIDS by the time you're 30 and then you were going to die, when you actually got to Vermont Cares, what was the work that needed to be done? And what were the messages that needed to go out in response to all of those things that was happening in the public discourse? I was very lucky. I started in a role as the prevention director, which means I got to lead the testing programs at Vermont Cares, the sort of nascent syringe service program, which at that point was just out of St. Johnsbury, and also the education that we did in schools, high schools, colleges, middle schools, workplaces. So I got to address the very concern that brought me to this work in the first place, sort of head on and look other queer kids and non-queer kids in the eyes and say, HIV is preventable. Communication is the key. Here are the things you need to know about it to help you make an informed decision for your own health. That felt gorgeous to me. And did you find a receptive audience to hear those messages? Were you actually given access to those populations for whom your message could have the greatest impact? Yes, yes. I think Cares has always been respected for the education that we give because it is age and content appropriate. So we can tailor messages about body positivity and sort of your own personal boundaries and consent to any age group. So I've worked with kids as young as 10 and 11 years old. We have middle schoolers coming into our offices all the time grabbing bundles of condoms. It brings me so much joy because they're learning and they're experimenting and they're trying things and we find blown up balloons out of condoms in the parking lot. I love that people are trying to learn about how to have a healthy sex life that's fulfilling for them. Oh, exactly. And re-establishing a sense of you have a say in what is happening in your life. You have control over this. Now, as you had referenced, many of us, our first introduction to HIV and AIDS was the person we cared for who was diagnosed and who was dying. For the early part of this epidemic, it was essentially gay men and it was friends taking care of friends in a hospice model. But that's not the case anymore. What does the people who were coming to Vermont Cares, what does that geographic look like now? It is very different. The medications used now to manage HIV are head and shoulders above what we have in the mid 90s and the early 2000s when I started. And I'm very happy to say, and I guess sad to say goodbye to, but I'm happy to say that a lot of the folks who were receiving services at Vermont Cares when I started are still with us, are still healthy and thriving. And yes, we've lost some people to other chronic conditions, but not as a function of their HIV proper in decades now. And I'm saying goodbye to people that have known for 20 years. That part is of course heartbreaking. But to know that Vermont is a leader in HIV healthcare, to know that people with HIV in our state live long and healthy and beautiful productive lives, that's an accomplishment. Good job for that. And I was going to say, and you've done some really impressive work in ensuring that PrEP in all of those treatment modalities are not only accessible, but there is insurance and funding so that people can actually have access to them. Yes. And that we educate patients and providers so that you know how to ask about it so that you know if a provider is going to be reticent, you know how to navigate a conversation about why your sexual health warrants a conversation about prevention preventative medicine. That's all important. And we all deserve that. I was going to say, and being able to provide that degree of education so that you have an informed individual going in, they know what they can and should be asking for. So I'd like to ask you if you could reflect a little bit about during your tenure at Vermont Cares, what's some of the work that you look at and say, if we had accomplished only that one thing, it would have been worth it for me to be here? I would say the biggest accomplishment of this organization over the 19 years I've been here has been just the explosion of syringe service programs in our state. We are so proud as an organization to now have two mobile prevention units that can track around the state in the more rural corners of Vermont and just bring HIV testing, sterile syringes and other overdosed prevention materials, conventional test strips, equipment that is saving people's lives to communities that have a hard time accessing our main offices in Berry or Burlington or Rutland or St. John'sbury. The fact that we can get out there, we over the last 18 months, like peak pandemic, we've doubled the number of people that we serve through that program and we've doubled the number of sterile syringes that we're getting into the community. So it feels like that is a gift of public health that no other organization could have accomplished. CARES is unique and weird and quirky and growing and learning all the time and I love that about this organization. Okay, so turning the question around, what is it that hasn't been completed that you're looking at saying, okay, that still needs to be finished? We have big horizons ahead of us. I think the way that Vermont talks about HIV still needs to change. I think there's still a lot of stigma around substance use, around sex. As we were talking about before this particular part of the conversation, sex during the time of COVID has complicated everything. People are still having sex, I'm happy to report. But yes, there is so much still to do. We're still looking at drug legalization. We're still looking at safe consumption sites where people can just safely use around medical professionals. There are so many different public health models that other countries and other cities are using that we just haven't been able to get across the finish line yet. So we have big ambitions as an organization and I will be cheering from the sideline watching it all happen in the future. So if somebody watching this decides they also want to cheer on the work of Vermont Cares and they're willing to offer some time to help with the work of Vermont Cares, how would they go about doing that or what are the things for which you might need or Vermont Cares might need volunteers? Yes, Vermont Cares not me personally needs and deserves and is so worthy of more volunteer person power. Our board of directors is growing right now. So people with a clear sense of HIV, a clear sense of how to keep people safe from overdose. People who are good at networking and community would be a huge asset to our board of directors right now. We're at a turning point obviously as leadership is changing and I think our board is just wonderful and fun to spend time with. So that's a board worth joining for sure. And just volunteering I don't know at the front desk of one of our offices or helping us to build kits of materials that help prevent overdose or help test for fentanyl in drugs could really, there's a simple project you can do at home while watching Netflix that allow our staff to do more frontline work. So we have ways of helping. We usually save condom kit building projects for college students because it makes them giggle and that makes me giggle. So we let them have those projects. Those also have like interesting things to spend my time and we could watch orca and Netflix though. Yes. Yes. So as Peter steps through the door on March 31st, what comes next for you? I do not have plans moving forward. I am sort of jumping without a net and just trusting the process. And I'm really excited about that because I have been focused so squarely on Vermont Cares and the politics and finances and human resources and IT and COVID precautions. All of the functions of this organization have been my primary focus for the last two decades. And I'm just allowing space to just pause through the month of April. I'm going to get my raised beds into perfect shape. I'm going to start some spring peas, another cute hedge. My flower gardens are going to be abundant and fluffy. That's all I have on the agenda for all of April. I've never seen my calendar look like that. I will have to get a job at some point. So yes, after April, that's what I'm looking for. When I go out back and start fitting my perennials, I'll have to see what I can donate to you. So in our remaining time, are there anything you would like to say or thoughts that you would like to share? I just want to say the work that I was blessed to do over the last two decades is work that really anybody can do. Vermont Cares is a network of team players. We have 200 volunteers who augment the work of about 12 staff members. There are so many ways to get involved in work that is profoundly anti-homophobic, anti-transphobic, anti-racist, that encourages the voices of people who use substances, people who are unhoused. This work is dynamic and intersectional. And I can't say enough how much it's been exciting and heartbreaking and heart-expanding to do this work. So please figure out ways to get involved. Everybody, I promise it will pay dividends. And the team that I have that I am handing this organization's sort of programs to is in great shape. They absolutely know what they're doing. So I'm really excited to see where this work gets to evolve moving forward. It's been just an honor. And with that, you say that anyone could have done this work, but there's only one, Peter Jacobson. There was only your style and effectiveness in your advocacy role, promoting the work of Vermont Cares, and the integrity of the people to whom you have provided services. So thank you and good luck on the turning ahead. Thank you too. Appreciate it. Thank you for joining us. And until next time, remember, resist.