 and welcome everyone to this care of painted services C2C care webinar. My name is Robin Bauer Kilgoe. I am the C2C care coordinator, and I'm just going to run through a couple of quick slides before we start today, and then I'm going to hand it over to our presenter. As I said, my name is Robin Bauer Kilgoe. I'm the C2C care coordinator. We also have a gentleman by the name of Mike Morna who's our senior producer at learning times here today. We are here to answer any kind of technical questions you might have or any kind of other issues you might have in the chat, and I'll talk about that in a few minutes. I would like to review at the start of one of these webinars, our home on the web connecting to collections.org. On that website, you'll be able to find our basically our entire archive of all the C2C care webinars. There are quite a few. There's also a discussion area where you can join in. It's a C2C care community. There you can go in and post questions that will actually be used and looked at by our group of fabulous volunteer monitors that then reach out to an expert group to get answers. So, if you have questions on direct care to collections or any other items, I would encourage you to go check that out. We do have a current course happening for C2C care. Courses are a little different than what the webinars are. With courses, they're actually kind of, we have to pay for them number one. The second thing is that they're kind of a deep dive into subjects, and the current course happening right now is called building collaborations between museums and indigenous communities. It started September 30th. It's going to conclude October 28th. I just wanted to bring it up because if you want to join now, you can actually go ahead and pay the course fee. You'll have access to the recordings of the previous webinars and then be able to join in on the live discussions happening. It's been a really interesting time. I would encourage you to go check out our website if you're interested in signing up for it. We also have an upcoming free webinar happening in November called Long Term Storage for Large Functional Objects Vehicles. During that webinar, we're actually going to be talking about how various institutions deal with storing these kind of items, these large functional objects vehicles. We are also encouraging our audience to submit examples. So, if your collection currently handles a collection or an item like this, and they have questions about it, our presenter by the name of Paul Storch will actually review it beforehand and give some tips during the live webinar. There is a submission form on our website connecting to collections.org that you can submit either photos or if you want to do a quick video or anything like that. So, I'd encourage you to go to the website to check it out. We do have two places that we live on social media as well. They are Facebook and our Twitter account at C2C Care. On both of those, you can actually find out what's happening within the community. So, I would encourage you to join them or follow them if you haven't already. Now, for those tech reminders, as a Zoom webinar, you have access to two separate boxes. You have access to a chat box and access to a Q&A box. The chat is there for chat. So, if you want to say hello, if you want to say where you're located, if you want to talk about the weather, you are more than welcome to do so within that chat box. Also, if you have any, like I said, technical questions or anything else, put them in there. The Q&A box is for questions. So, if you have a question for our speaker at any time during the webinar, put it in that Q&A box. We will then follow up during the Q&A period afterwards. We really like that Q&A box that helps us track questions. And if I see a question in the chat box, I'll usually refer you over to the Q&A box. So, I do encourage you to use that. Before we start this webinar, I would like to acknowledge this webinar is being moderated on the traditional lands of the Mikosuki and Seminole people and their ancestors, and I pay my respect to elders both past and present. So, thank you again. And now I want to go ahead and introduce our speaker today. So, our speaker today is Megan Emery, who is the Chief Conservator and Senior Objects Conservator at the Midwest Art Conservation Center, which is a non-profit conservation center located in Minneapolis, Minnesota. And without further ado, I'm going to hand control of the presentation over to her, and we'll see you at the Q&A period afterwards. Thanks and see you soon. Thank you, Robin. I'm going to pull up my screen here, share it with you. All right. Well, I'd like to begin by acknowledging that I am presenting from the traditional ancestral and contemporary lands of the Dekuo people. This place has a complex and layered history, and I offer my respect to the elders who have stewarded the land throughout the generations and continue to do so. Well, welcome and thank you for joining me today as we talk about the care of painted surfaces. When asked to present on this topic, I was a little overwhelmed at first because it can be a very large topic. So many types of objects have been painted. However, it's also why it's a very important conversation to have. Pain and surfaces are found in virtually every collection. I'm going to leave plenty of time for questions at the end. So, if you have any specific objects in your collection or collection materials that you're concerned about as we go along, if I don't answer some of those questions during our presentation, please feel free to use the Q&A box, as Robin suggested, to put those questions in there. We'll make sure we get to answer as many as possible. Well, without further ado, let's begin. Well, a little trouble screen sharing or advancing my slides. Hold on. There we go. All right. Well, when it comes to paint, there is tempera, casing, oil, acrylics, watercolor, wash, enamels, elkids. The list can go on and on. There are so many different types of paints. And as long as paint has been used to create any type of functional or art object, there are also many types of substrate. Wood, metal, stone, concrete, glass, ceramics, painted canvas, fabrics, walls, decorative elements of all types in the home. There really is almost anything that could have been a painted surface. While this presentation is relevant to any type of painted surface, because the condition issues are frequently the same, it really is focused heavily on three dimensional objects as that's my specialty. However, wall paintings and painted wallpaper and other paintings do find some application in this conversation as well. So if that's the type of collection I object you're concerned about, you will find some information that is very relevant to that as well. Here is a beginning, just a few examples of objects that you may find that are painted in a collection. You have painted ceramic, painted wood, painted metal in the form of, in this case, a World War I helmet, painted glass, and painted plaster on a painted metal base. Many times when objects were painted, there was a decorative purpose in mind. However, paint was also applied to objects to be protected, to have more of a functional use, to help metals slow down the rate of corrosion, to protect them from elements when used outside, for instance, on heavy duty industrial farm equipment or machinery. Painted furniture, a lot of times it was not only to cover up the wood but it was to serve as a decorative purpose. Paint can also be purely decorative in the form of some decorative arts or fine art objects. And it can be used again, like this is an example here of an antique coffee grinder. And that's a case where it's both decorative and protective. Many cases it is when paint is applied to the surface, it's not solely being protective, if that was its function, but it was decoratively applied. For instance, this is a steam thresher from 1910. And while it's very difficult to tell now because of the paint's age, it was decoratively painted with stripes and coloring and transfer patterns, and all done in a way to be as decorative as possible while also providing a very basic function. A little bit about the science and understanding of how paint works. Durability and performance of paint depends on two main properties, cohesion and adhesion. When you have a substrate, whether it be glass or metal or whatever it may be, then you have the paint layer, you have the interface where they join. That interface is the area where adhesion takes place between the two, where a bond of some form is created. Cohesive strength is the strength of the actual paint film itself. And cohesive failure is something that's taking place inside the paint. And we'll talk about examples of this as we move forward. Adhesion is the strength between the paint and the substrate. And this is when adhesive failure takes place, it's at that interface area. It's right at that very edge. And there are many factors that can cause cohesive and adhesive failure. But again, we'll get through that a little bit more. There are also three types of principles that apply to good adhesion. Adsorption. And adsorption a lot of times has to do with metals, glass, certain polymers, types of plastics that have high surface energies or higher surface energies in the paint. When you think of something, when you think of applying paint and the paint runs smoothly over the surface, if it drags or doesn't want to go, you don't end up with very wet or free flowing. That's when the paint has a higher surface energy than the object and it doesn't want to apply smoothly. That adsorption is what that is called as how well that paint is applied to the surface. And that's really important in having good adhesion. Chemical bonds also form between some paints and the substrate at the interface. And this happens a lot of times when a paint system has an additive or a highly reactive functional group involved, adhesion promoters. And this is a lot of times found in industrial paints, including some commercially available paints that are used. Some spray paints have them in there or house paints of various types. There are additives in there to exercise an extra level of bonding between the substrate and the paint layer. And then there is mechanical interlocking. And this is something we run into the most. And this is when you have a paint film on a substrate and that there's a surface texture. And so the paint actually penetrates in and grabs on. And that's when you get a really tight adhesive bond between the substrate and the paint layer at that interface because there's some texture and you've got that penetration. So here's an example. This is a small glass sculpture that's painted by the artist Richard Marquis. And I provided the three kind of examples of this adsorption, chemical bonds and mechanical. In this case with painted glass, you've got great adsorption. The glass has a higher transition or higher surface energy and it allows that paint to just roll smoothly over the surface, creating a beautiful decorative surface. However, so there you've got a good way of bonding on that block. However, you have a poor chemical bond. There is no chemical reaction in this case taking place between the paint itself and the substrate. You also have a poor mechanical interlocking or the surface of the glass is incredibly smooth. It wasn't at all manipulated prior to the paint being applied. And therefore you don't have a strong bond that way. So this is an object where one could expect to see failure in the future. Here's an example of a large outdoor contemporary sculpture by Mark DeSufero. And this is a case where I actually was involved in repainting it, something that happens frequently with outdoor sculpture. But this is a case where there is great adsorption because, oh, but I can see that I didn't correct my slide here, where the metal has a higher surface energy than the paint itself and the paint flows across. I totally didn't change this, did I? Well, sorry about that. There's a good chemical bond in this case because there are additives applied in this case. In fact, when you see this image right here with the gray background, that is actually a zinc based primer that has applied to the metal first. And that's allowing there to be an actual chemical bond between the metal, the zinc primer layer and the paint. So you've got a really tight durable bond. And that zinc primer also has a rough texture. So you're getting a good mechanical interlocking as well. So this is something where whether the artist originally intended it for it or not, it's all those properties are there at present. And so it's going to have a good durability and last as long as it's possible in an outdoor environment. So as we continue to talk about these durable paint layers, it rarely affects the actual objects, how these different, the adsorption and the chemical bonds and the interlocking. This rarely, they're all underlying happening in the objects we see in our collection. However, it's not usually what we're dealing with. We have to deal with the actual object. What is the substrate? What is the paint? And what's happening between them? They are changing at a constant rate. And depending on what that combination is, we never really know. So this is where we as collection stewards have to jump in and remember our agents of deterioration. I'm sure many, if not all of you, have heard about agents of deterioration in one form or another. It's the list of factors that influence an object or collections overall condition. And conservators and collection specialists love to talk about them, myself included. Every one of these can influence the rate of deterioration we see with painted objects. Normally, when I'm giving a presentation, I would talk about each one specifically and how it directly affects the type of object. However, this is such a large topic with different types of paint, substrate, history and use that we're going to actually talk about the different condition issues and kind of relate back to which agent of deterioration may influence them or how that could affect them. So before I continue, this is a good point where I can just remind you again to use the Q&A box for questions. I gave you just a very brief scientific background. Now we're really going to get into what we see on individual collection objects on a day-to-day basis. So the first one that we're going to look at is damage and deterioration. And as I'm going to just tell you that as I selected images, I am selecting details of images. So in very few cases, do you actually see a whole object? And the reason I'm doing that is because I really want you to see the problems, not the actual object itself. And I'm hoping that you can see my pointer as well, because this is an example of a damage where you have, this is a painted shadow box. It has a painted canvas mounted to a wood board, but then it has a three-dimensional painted shadow in front of it, or a three-dimensional figure in front of it. Here's a case where the wood backing has actually cracked and split, causing the canvas to completely tear and there's paint losses along the surface. In this case, you have a painted plaster where there's been a physical force and actual problems within plaster and you've got large losses. So when you have a large damage to a work part, you're inevitably going to lose parts of the painted surface as well. Agents of deterioration that come into play with damage and deterioration are pretty much all of them. Physical force, vandalism can cause this, fire, water, pest, pollutants, light, temperature, RH, and neglect. Every one of the agents can cause flat-out damage and deterioration, particularly with painted surfaces. Here's some more images that show examples of damage and deterioration on different types of substrates. Here you have a painted wood mirror frame and you also have a painted metal sculpture where you have found steel that has an auto paint on the surface. It's actually parts of an automobile. When you have a physical impact, for instance down here, you actually get cracking in paint and large areas of loss. Another problem that you can see is if you've got corrosion on a metal object, frequently that will also cause large areas of loss and deterioration as well. These are examples where when the substrate is having a physical problem and it will cause damage to the painted surface. The next example that we're going to do is looking at cracks, cracking. This is also called crackalure or you may have heard of it referred to as alligatoring. All of these are different terms that conservators will use to refer to this type of condition issue. Many times the cracking remains and it just reveals a crackalure pattern. This very fine network or in this case a large network of cracks that develop across the surface. This is an example of a painted plaster. Here you actually have a canvas painting where you have a very tight network of cracking that is occurring and while those cracks are beginning to lift, you don't have any real sign of loss. This can result from the poor cohesive strength. This is when we have lack of flexibility in the paint coating versus the substrate. When the substrate is expanding or contracting, the paint is moving at a different rate. It doesn't have the flexibility and these cracks develop. It can also be a result of physical force, fire, water, high temperature, inappropriate temperatures, and high levels of RH. Again some of our different agents are coming into play. Tenting and lifting. Frequently these go along with cracking where you actually see something happen where the paint is physically lifting. Another term for this is cupping. However that is when the paint lifts up and actually cups on the edges. Lifting or tenting is when it moves up and cupping is when it comes like this. This you have poor adhesion at the interface. This is a case for the substrate and the paint layer again aren't responding to the same things and there's a poor bond. So when one moves the other one kind of goes and moves up over words. So you've got large long cracks that are lifting up the surface and again here is a really tight small crack creating this lifting. Here are examples of flaking and peeling. Again these are from poor adhesion or cohesion. The cohesive strength. You can have a failure in either the paint layer to cause this or at the interface. This is an example where you just physically lose large chunks of paint. Here you've got paint on plaster, paint on wood and paint on galvanized steel in an outdoor environment. This can be a result of physical force, vandalism, fire, water, pest, balloons, light, temperature, all right again all the agents coming to fact in this particular condition issue. Here you see examples of blistering. This is usually again for adhesion and when you've got incompatible materials or contaminants. So this one, this example right here, this is a like an elkid or like a polyurethane based paint on a steel surface and you've got a clear coat that was applied a clear polyurethane coating that was applied on the top. They didn't react well together so as the polyurethane shrunk it actually pulled the bottom paint layer right up off the surface causing this large blister. And this is an example where you have a painting that was exposed to high heat and that also is causing for adhesion between the paint and the interface. So this can happen from different types of things but you'll see blisterings in paint. Moving a little from those physical things we also have more or the larger losses that we immediately see. We see abrasion frequently with painted surfaces. This has to deal with the cohesive strength of the paint. A lot of times paint coatings just cannot tolerate being abraded or scratched or having any kind of object rubbing up against their surface. So here you have an Norwegian trunk that was over its lifetime had just a lot of exposure different things set on top of it different things for storage environments and this is actually a painted metal base that belonged to the sculpture of the plaster Madonna that was shown earlier and you can see that there's a metal there's metal corrosion and as things have been put on top of it there was a lot of abrasion around the edges and you have a lot of loss of the painted surface from that. Stains and accretions are another category that we see a lot of problems with conditions for painted surfaces. Here sometimes you can have an accretion that drips some sort of a liquid stain that drips onto the surface and then not only does it leave a residue behind but it actually causes staining underneath. This is an example of where you have paint from another object or from being painted in an environment painting taking place in an environment where the object is stored and that paint has transferred onto the object itself causing a non-original paint on top of a painted surface and then in this example you have a water soluble paint on top of hide that then experienced exposure to moisture and it caused bleeding and running and staining along with tidelines and discoloration so these are all types of damages and condition issues that can occur. Discoloration is also something we see frequently here we have a piece of furniture that had multiple layers of varnish and oil applied over its life and there was originally a painted decoration on the surface however over years those varnish and coating layers have darkened and you no longer see clearly what the painted decoration was below and again we have a one helmet and this is a case where over time the paint has darkened from cumulative dirt and grime and also because corrosion particulates from the steel below have actually migrated through leaving little deposits of rust all over the surface of the helmet. Fading is something we see a lot with painted surfaces this depends on the type of paint some paints are much more stable than others a lot of times it depends on the amount of light levels so for instance if you have a gallery display where you've got oil paintings and there's natural light they may not have a problem they're all durable enough however you wouldn't want them to direct some light. This is a case where an outdoor painted sculpture had been repainted on several campaigns and over time the top layer of paint began to fade and discolor and become almost like a chalky appearance of its former self it also abraded away and started to reveal the very distinct different color below so there's a lot of things going on here but fading is definitely something to consider with and in your light levels. Powdery paint or poorly bound paint this happens a lot with folk art decorative art objects a Native American ethnographic material here actually you have this is a popular McGinney sculpture Egyptian and Native American and in all three of these cases you have a high pigment to bind a ratio meaning there's a lot more dry pigments or loose pigment in the meat paint medium than there is paint medium and so you don't have a nice binder holding that paint into place in this scenario there's a it's almost inevitable that you're going to have areas of abrasion loss sometimes it'll be powdery on the surface it's just not going to wear well over time so you really have to consider those agents deterioration to reduce those that as much as possible and then we get right into the insect damage which of course is always something we have to talk about even though it's a painted surface there's a lot of times insects will sometimes graze on the painted self however most of the time they're going after the substrate but that will cause tunneling large areas of loss loss of the structure which again leads to loss of that painted surface exit holes that can you know again disrupt the visual appearance of the object overall no object is immune from these and of course biological growth again mold will grow or biological growth different types will grow on paint there's a lot of things that can feed in particularly when there's grime layers and again a lot of times they're going after the substrate as well but then they will show up and be transferred onto the painted surface itself so this is something always to consider as well of your collection and of course there's dirt and grime layers with dirt and grime layers we've always got the different build-ups it's going to change discoloration it can lead to faster deterioration of the substrate it can change the appearance of the object overall and it can actually the accumulation of dirt and grime can actually lead to more complex cleaning problems or maintenance of problems of the collection as a whole and so with that we're going to sort of get into some of those other types of storage and maintenance issues so when I first started thinking about how I was going to present storage display maintenance again because there's this huge variety of types of objects that have painted surface I realize that the best part is going to be when we get to that Q&A and you can really ask me about specific types of materials and really your individual questions I think that's going to be the most useful in the scenario however I do want to talk about it generally and in a broad sense back to those agents of deterioration any storage or gallery space that's designed to reduce these the way you handle objects the way you train volunteers obviously security issues to reduce vandalism theft having in fire protection systems trying to avoid flooding all the things that we can do to reduce these are directly going to impact the long-term care of our painted surface collections and slow down their rate of deterioration there are a lot of problems as I've gone through that laundry list of condition issues that you can see with painted surfaces and so it's really important that we stop and think about those ways that we can prevent this right from the beginning safe handling and storage one of the things with painted surfaces is that a lot of times they can snag particularly if you want to look at an object very carefully do you see clearly areas of lifting or flaking or some of these condition issues and if you do how do you handle it then those lifting and flaking powdery surfaces unstable painted surfaces are really very sensitive to being handled and there's a lot of risk of loss even just from moving an object from one place to another so something I suggest that you look at your collection regularly or really sensitive objects and take pictures on a regular basis once a year and look at their condition and document what do you see what's changing is it getting worse that way that's sort of a baseline of understanding how that surface is changing over time and if any condition issues are happening and then you might be able to figure out what is causing that and how you can reduce it I mentioned that handling nitrile gloves or something we frequently recommend over cotton gloves cotton gloves painted surfaces so often have a rough texture or they snag or grip easily and so they can leave cotton fibers behind and those cotton fibers can actually then pull off or cause more damage to flaking surface always using two hands properly transporting one an object from one place to another just using good safe handling methods overall another thing is about storage and with painted objects again it's really usually directly what is the substrate and what is the type of paint and what is is it a contemporary or object is it folk art is it painted glass how you're really going to look at the larger material type to try to understand what the best method of storage is however anytime you have a painted surface the things to really take into consideration is that you don't want to cause any abrasion or paint transferred to the surface when paint is transferred from one object onto another or it's abraded then what happens is that it's really sometimes a condition issue that can't be addressed a lot of times if they're for instance if you have a large group of like objects and one object were to transfer paint to another you may not have a difference in solubility where that paint layer could be removed from that's non-original you want to make sure that you're not causing any loss or things by having in contact with another you also want to make sure that they're in contact with smooth or appropriate surfaces again that you don't want like a really rough surface to be in contact with a really smooth painted surface and you want to think about what may cause extra damage as you go on with storage again specific questions please put them in the in the chat box this is that or in the Q&A because that'll be the best way to talk about some of this so when it comes to maintenance or maintaining and taking some cleaning of all these types of objects there's always our HEPA vacuums that we love to vacuum and maintain collection items with you frequently what we'll want to do with the HEPA vacuum is actually take the end the microattachment and wrap it and put a cheesecloth or something over the top or fine netting over the top or vacuum through a screen so that you're not actually backing up any paint flakes or anything that may come with it a lot of times also taping off the plastic ferrule so you don't have any risk of abrasion looking for examination techniques looking at using a small bright light to look at an object or using a UV flashlight to see if there's any weird condition issues or problems with surface coatings having a tweezers to get small fibers off different types of dusting brushes and things that you can very gently clean these are a lot of our very common cleaning tools and something that we use for a lot of different types of object maintenance when it comes to dusting a painted surface we recommend that you have almost never wipe it down with just a full cloth it's really best to use a brush and goat hair brushes badger hair brushes Chinese hockey brushes are all really excellent general dusting brushes for painted canvases or really delicate painted surfaces the badger hair brush is the most ideal it also happens to be the most expensive and not always a practical solution you want them to be a natural fiber and the larger the better although having a variety of sizes is really beneficial again you want to tape off that metal ferrule or and even sometimes with the edges some of the wood ones you want to do is take painter's tape and wrap it around there and that just reduces the risk of any abrasion from that metal ferrule coming in contact with the pain and surface and as brushes particularly with some of the more inexpensive brushes as they become dirty it's a really great idea to dispose of them and obtain new and if it's a higher in quality brush you can use your vacuum to vacuum the brush really well some brushes can be rinsed and then just dried thoroughly although in many cases that leaves those bristles not quite as soft so that's not always the best method when actually dusting for example here in this case you can see a hockey brush that has been taped the nitrile gloves and the vacuum is actually collecting so you're using the brush slowly wipe away the dirt but the vacuum to pull it off and so that it doesn't come off a lot of times that's a better method to paint it surface to lightly clean versus just vacuuming because sometimes that vacuuming actually adds more friction than is necessary and can cause problems they brush very slowly and gently usually starting in one direction and then going in an opposite direction if you have a vertical surface for example a painted wall or a canvas or something that's on a vertical surface you want to usually go in a vertical and then a horizontal with three-dimensional objects it's usually kind of working in a downward direction and then maybe kind of brushing off the base or anything that you have you again you really don't want to use any kind of a dust cloth that could be rough or cause problems definitely you know don't introduce moisture stiff bristle brushes should be avoided and feather dusters as well feather dusters while they seem so gentle and soft they really leave those fibers behind and they get snagged in that painted surface and they can be very challenging to remove those fibers later on and also be careful because I hear of a lot of collections using swiffer dusters I love swiffer dusters at home I think they're fantastic and I use them almost everything however in a museum collection not only do they lose leave fibers behind but a lot of them have added scents nowadays some of them have added added polishing compounds and so you need to make sure like for instance I know that there are some that have pledged or something like that and added to them as an extra pickup of dust but they really you don't want to because anything that is in there can actually be transferred um onto the surface of the object and can cause other problems later on so when to call a concern one of the things that I hoped to do is give you as many tools that you can use yourself um to take care and maintain your collections with painted surface objects however the problem is is that painted surfaces are incredibly delicate and they have so many condition issues and that they can really become problematic so there's a lot of times where it's going to be important to just have talked to a conservator ask them the best way to approach that specific object and also maybe have them carry out the treatment here are a few examples of that this is a small contemporary glass sculpture called proof and it has a wood base and painted glass on top well first thing is the base is actually a combination of charred wood and applied paint so where you have that applied paint on the base it's got a very rough texture um there's a risk of taking off some of that ash from the char and the paint when cleaning um but then and I'm hoping it's you can see it's very hard to photograph glass and get this clear in this large detail of these teeny tiny little glass shells um the artist actually painted parts of the shells to create these different shadows and lights and dark and they're all piled and glued together or adhered together with silicone adhesive um there's a lot of flexibility and mobility in these pieces as well as they're not really tightly bound to one another. The problem with this thick layer of dirt and grime is accumulated is as you know with some glass objects you get a grimy film in addition to just that loose particulate and when trying to do any loose dusting you may take off some of the dust but you can't really get into the crevices and you really can't address that grime. When it came to the conservation lab that I work at the problem we found was that the paint had sort of like the painted object I presented in the very beginning where it had good adsorption but it did not have any chemical bonding or interlocking properties. It was very poorly bound and the paint had the same solubility of all the different types of agents that would properly clean glass so it became a my enter of june's under a microscope and selectively cleaning the areas where there was not paint and in some areas where the grime was so heavily built up working with the um with the curator the owner and actually determining whether a small amount of paint loss was actually preferential to the really grimy appearance that was going to cause deterioration to the glass and really kind of changed the way the art was supposed to be viewed. So you've got something that should be so simple removing grime from a clean glass object is very straightforward however in this case that paint layer really complicated both cleaning of the base and of the object itself. Here is the world war one helmet that has shown up in several of my slides so this is just a great example part of it is it has a wonderful history this is an uh an object that's in a private collection and it is actually um a family member in this in this collection it's the family member who was in world war one and had painted his helmet while he and it has a map of all of the different battles of where he had been and so it's got a really wonderful history it's a great historical object but when it came to the lab it had a very um grimy and deteriorated um surface coating on the surface that had darkened as I mentioned prior um some of the rust had actually transferred up through the paint through pits and pitted areas of corrosion leaving um rusty corrosion on top of the surface and then there was just a general layer of grime. This is a case where um having it done cleaned by a conservator there is no straightforward way to tell somebody how to clean this without testing different solutions and different chemicals to identify what is the solubility of the paint is it a discolored coating or is it just natural grime properties and also what can we do to clean the paint safely while not causing any additional harm to the metal that is already somewhat unstable um so here you can see the before and the after of and how much it visually changed dramatically as far as removing that layer of grime and reducing some of the corrosion deposits on the paint but not fully removing them. This is um a double-sided outdoor sign from a small tea room uh the red geranium tea room and this is something that came to the lab because it's an historic object they were not bothered by the amount of loss however they were bothered by the fact that it was actively flaking and there was a lot of risk for the loss of the collection um they really wanted to maintain the sign as is um and so paint stabilization is one of and consolidation sometimes we call it stabilization sometimes we call it consolidation but really what it is is introducing an adhesive or a binder underneath the existing paint that is appropriate for both paint type and substrate and then finding a way to mechanically or let set back down so that paint becomes stable. Many times when an object has flaking or lifting or losses of paint this is something that will be an ongoing condition there is a reason why it is happening or why it has happened it needs to pass and it's going to continue but what we want to do is stabilize and maintain as much of it as we can going forward so here you've seen a detail of the flower pot and just how lifted the paint was and this is an example of actually setting down those paints multiple different methods were tested different types of adhesive different types of heat like how to apply the heat this is in this case this area of white is actually a slow humidification process where the paint was very brittle it's on galvanized steel and it was basically like an industrial house paint or commercial house paint oil based and so it was very brittle and did not want to set there was not only cohesive failure but adhesion failure and so the paint was humidified into softens that when we tried to set those flakes back they didn't just break off then a consolidant and adhesive was wicked underneath those little tiny flakes of paint allowed to sit for 24 hours it was a heat reactive adhesive and then heat was brought back in later with the silicone release our barrier and that was then used to set those humidified flakes back down into place and really create that bond here you see an example of before and after consolidation and this is a case where we did do some selective filling in various of loss but for the most part we did not and I can talk a little bit about that in this next slide which is another thing that conservators will frequently talk to you about with loss compensation when addressing painted surface objects particularly historical objects as I'm sure many of you will aware conservators really tried to take into consideration the type of object it's used since history to determine how far is appropriate for given treatment with this geranium t-room sign the decision was that there were a few really distracting areas of loss for example write some large losses right in the letters and a big one in one of the flowers on the opposite side and it was decided to very selectively in paint those areas that were distracting and yet leave all of these smaller losses untouched as part of the natural history here you can see this Norwegian trunk I showed you earlier when talking about abrasion and how the abrasion has really caused a very visually distracting surface appearance on the top of the trunk the design was no longer legible in this case after it was cleaned and the conservator was able to look at it very closely the lines of the design were very clearly visible but leave some of those areas of abrasion you could see you could connect the dots and so in this case the decision was made to actually do loss compensation where all of these large areas of abrasion were toned back to match the color of the oxidized wood surface and then they were impainted with a medium of different solubility than the original so that could be reversed in the future and yet you've got a legible surface so these are some of the reasons why a conservator may be brought in there are many types of ways we treat painted surface object or painted surfaces but again it can be really specific to the individual object type and with that I think we're going to dive into your questions and answers because I think I can really provide some more one-on-one case specific examples getting into that great thanks so much yeah that is a huge subject so I get I think it's good that we can start looking at questions I'm already have questions so it works out well one of the first questions that came in says what can you do to help prevent paint loss on objects installed outdoors that are used by animals for their biobricks that that is a common problem I run into I deal with a lot of outdoor sculpture and a lot of times what ends up happening well if there's any way you can the best way to do is try to prevent them having access and you know trying to stanch it off or try to reduce access sometimes a lot of times if there's like well if it's against a sidewalk or something it doesn't necessarily matter but if it's there's more of a grassy area there's a concrete between or some sort of gravel barrier around the base of the sculpture sometimes that can help reduce that however if you do have that and it's an outdoor durable paint the best scenario would actually be to just wash it as much as you can just keep rinsing it off as you have access I hope that can kind of answer that question because that is always a tricky one yeah I think we did a earlier C2C spare webinar on outdoor sculptures too that I would refer everyone to look back at that because I might have some more tips and tricks specifically for biobricks which I think I'm going to start using all the time yeah and it and it really does it's very acidic and it can really break down the paint layer very quickly and it can cause a lot of staining as well so it is is something to pay attention to for sure next question is how are discoloration and fading different usually we consider fading as the color lightens or deteriorates in that direction and discoloration is where it shifts from its original color to another for instance if it has a slight if it has a coating and the coating becomes more yellow or the paint colors shift to a slightly darker shade we would call that as a discoloration whereas fading is when you see sort of an overall lightning effect both can be caused by light exposure so it just depends on the medium and what type of light it's exposed to they can also be caused by additives in the paint or by the paint type itself sometimes it has a reaction between the substrate in the paint for instance when you have a paint on a metal object if there is oxidation or corrosion of the metal below that can transfer and cause darkening or discoloration of the painted surface as well so that's usually where we consider the difference between discoloration and fading as fading is usually when things go on the lighter side so what are the considerations one should make while deciding which adhesive must be used for relaying a flaking paint should one use a rigid adhesive they have paralleloids or flexible ones pva emulsions honestly it totally depends on the type of object and actually conservators have a whole much larger scope of adhesives just between some of the paralleloids and some of the pva emulsions that we look at the reason why it's so specific is it depends on what is the substrate is it does it need to be flexible does it need to be rigid how is what is its environment is it going to expand and contract a lot is it on a wood-based surface is it on glass and what is the type of paint there is almost and even when you have the exact same scenario over and over again sometimes it really does depend on is it tinted cleavage is it actually just lifting flaking paint or is it cupping and what and what's causing it to so unfortunately i can't really give you a very specific answer to it i'm kind of going back the questions disappeared i can't oh yeah here i can see it i'm going to just say um uh so as far as the rigid versus flexible we usually choose um again it depends what is that environment going is it going to have a lot of expansion and contractions are going to stay the same and so i'm almost hesitant to say give you an i'm trying to think of an exact example of when one would be better over the other but again it's really a case by case basis yeah i know it can be hard sometimes giving you that exact thing but i would also say that we have um Megan's con we have some of our information on our website so i bet if you want to send her an email you may get some pictures because she thought yeah if yeah if you have an actual like object and pictures of it and then we can get more into the specifics and that's why that's why i mean this is a love painted surfaces i love painted objects of all types but it is really tricky when you have such a large variety of options on what the paint or substrate is um sixth question says if you have to wrap a painted surface and can't do a shadow box type of thing to keep the wrapping material off the surface what is the best material to have touch the surface and then they go on to say i understand the ideal may not be have anything touch it but we have less than ideal circumstances so i think we're like in real world like what would you have attention i uh less than ideal circumstances i think we all live in that in the museum world i mean we always want ideal but it's hardly ever as that would be um if you need to wrap something it would depend on the type of so you want to think is this paint surface at all tacky if it's got any kind of tack to it and there's a risk of something adhering or becoming stuck to the surface whether that be a deteriorated coating and oily layer on the surface of grime or actually like a softer paint for instance um an acrylic or an oil that may not be like sometimes acrylics can remain kind of tacky and oils if it's not fully dry um then you want to not wrap it if you cannot avoid it um there are for things that are more stable dart tech is a really good material it is uh it's a uh i believe it's a polyester but it is a very thin plastic sheet it's like mylar it's a little bit more affordable it's very thin and it's very easy to wrap i wouldn't recommend it for long term storage as it does tend to sort of cloud and kind of break down over time so if you're going to do something for a long term then i would use a really thin mylar um and again just kind of pay attention if there's any way you could frame it like if it's a flat thing you could frame it or if it's a three dimensional and you can place it in a box and then just wrap the top of the box if there's any way that you can keep it from direct contact that is always the best scenario um and again that is a case where if you have a specific object type loss and the pictures of later on i'd be happy to answer that more directly so the next question is one of the big debates of the universe pretty much it deals with gloves so it says regarding proper handling of painted objects where do you stand on the gloves no gloves debate and why is proper hand washing enough to mitigate possible contaminants is the added tactile dexterity enough to justify it well one thing i would say is that if you're going to wear gloves at all i would go for nitrile because they help with all those scenarios um they really did do give you more manual dexterity particularly a proper fitting nitrile glove should be tight it should not be loose or baggy because that doesn't help with the dexterity at all um but so if you have a tight fitting nitrile glove that is powder-free you don't want any kind of like residue on the surface that would be my first case scenario because it can apply to any type of object if you are washed hands is your next best bet if you can't wear a glove and keeping them clean if you're going to go in and handle a bunch of i apologize for the cat um if you have made it so far without one of my animals injured but um if you can wash your hands right before you're going to do it so you have as little hand oil as possible that can be acceptable although if it's a metal object even painted metals sometimes that oily residue or painted glass that residue can be a little bit harder to remove and cause more problems later on so i'd really say with like painted canvas painted ceramics um stone marble all of that you can get by with in the washed hands uh our freshly washed hands and just wash frequently um and then also consider what you might be handling and wash afterwards as well there are all sorts of contaminants we just don't want on our hands so that's where i stand on the glove debate as a conservator and frequently found without gloves on but we always say there's an exception to that rule so that's why i say nitrile first um i someone in the chat says never apologize for cats so don't worry about the cat number one number two i think the gloves thing is really interesting because i was when i came up in the mid o's it was gloves gloves gloves right and then we've seen this kind of new world open up where it's clean hands are really important and what's come what's come up in the uh building collaborations course that we're doing right now which is working with tribal populations and all that is that sometimes when you're inviting people into your collections to get information it's hard for those groups to be number one to come into our collection sometimes for a multitude of reasons and then the next thing is kind of like now you have to like glove up and it's like it just creates these like barriers to get to the object so i think as a collections person it's always good to try to do best standards and use for what you can kind of like you describe but at the same time it's always just clean hands is the most important thing to meet either before and after we're done handling those objects because i think both sides of that but it like i said it was interesting because it really came up in that course we're doing lately about how just putting the gloves on and doing all this can just build barriers to sometimes bringing people into our collections and providing access and obviously this is a little different but i just thought i'd point that out that's come up with this discussion well and it's also something that comes up with i think about a lot of like library and archive scenarios where you have maybe a rare book and you want somebody a lot of times the older standard was to wear cotton gloves and the problem is cotton gloves tend to hold hand oils and skin oils in them because they're frequently handled before they're put on and so then you've got the transfer of the oils already on the outside glove they don't get washed as much as they should and sometimes when it comes to that dexterity problem you're more likely to bend or turn a corner or cause a you know full crease where as a clean hand is much less likely to do anything so it really is but again it's that well there's that risk and if some of us doesn't know what they're you know going to handle and of course there is that also like a cultural barrier you don't want to invite someone in who it's part of their cultural heritage or their family heritage even and say hey put a glove on before you handle your own family photographs that were donated here you know you don't want to yeah so it's an interesting debate that goes beyond just it's all collections care but it's just kind of beyond physical damage it goes on to it so anyway we need to have a whole like series on glove uses at some point now it's evolving but yes um next is what types of solvents are best for wood metal and glass when cleaning grime do you have any opinion on that it depends if they're painted i would say none of them if it's a painted surface um if it is an unpainted glass just sort of a standard glass object the best cleaning solution is an ethanol water combination 50 50 is my favorite um and using a very um they have microfiber cloth specifically designed for glass never applying the liquid directly to the glass but applying it to the microfiber cloth and then using that to wipe clean for straight up glass um if it's painted glass that could be problematic depending on the type of paint that's present if you have wood i would avoid most liquids just because you don't know again this is a case where if you have a picture or a specific object in mind feel free to ask but if you've got like painted furniture even if it has a like a coating that seems really durable there could be blanching that's results of like any kind of solvent or liquid so i just there's too many variables um and with metals um again painted metals depends on what that paint layer is um so if we're talking about straight metals not a painted surface depends on what the metal is but a lot of times um either ethanol or mineral spirits works pretty well but again this is it's really case by case so i'm hesitant to say anything specifically but happy to answer further more specific questions going still on the subject of cleaning um someone's asking what did you use to clean the helmet she says i'm sorry but she missed when you mentioned that but they were i didn't actually mention what i used to clean the helmet um i used a combination of different things first i used um uh like a uh a water-based cleaning system to clean it and then i went once i understood that the that was to get sort of the basic layer of grime first i dragged it then i did more of a water-based cleaning solution to remove a little bit more of the grime um it was a had tribal names it traded a low percentage and then after that i followed it up with a little bit of solvent in selective areas and i believe it was ethanol but i would have to review my notes to tell you about that that was a few years ago um oh go ahead oh i was just going to say that again if you have a similar object in your collection i would look a little more closely because it may have been you know created differently we run into the fact that unfortunately no object is created the same and there are always so many variations that it can be difficult to have one answer for anything yeah i could say that um this is interesting it says are there any tips for cleaning sticky spider webs off painted surfaces so if something's starting to adhere what would you sticky painted i'd start dry i would start trying with like in that's a case where you could maybe take a dry cloth and see if you can't wipe off the sticky debris um depending on what the substrate is if you can give us any more specifics i might be able to go a little more detail um but a lot of times if you get it off with a dry cloth and then sometimes polyurethane sponges they're cosmetic sponges you can find them in any kind of makeup store they're very very soft and they can actually pick up a lot of dirt and grime on the surface of things in fact they were there was an image of polyurethane sponges in my um cleaning overall slide and also soot sponges but so sponges on painted surfaces can be a little rough because they're they're um vulcanized rubber and they have more texture to them so sometimes they could be slightly abrasive although most cases they're okay to just kind of pick up extra layers of loose particulate if the paint is stable um so someone's asking so if a collections manager finds a flaked paint chip from a work should be kept for a conservator to reattach or does it depend on the work or the size of the flake so the question is is when do you win and this is always a hard thing as a trained registrar is like when do you stop and reach out to the conservator or because that's going to be slightly personal yeah it is it's going to be based on your own you know like what how specific you feel you are in the collection and the collection object itself if it is an incredibly you know significant objects for whatever reason or whether it be historical significance or importance or value um if you retain the chip and if it's like really visually distracting you know if you retain it yes we can put it back on um in most cases a lot of frequently we'll get objects and we'll get some large pieces of chips and then we'll get a lot of powder that powder we really can't reuse as much as we would like to say we can it we're not going to be putting it back on um so i think it what is the size of the chip um do you know clearly where it comes from sometimes we get bags of chips and we can find 80 percent of them and then there's those few we're like we're not going to put it back where it doesn't actually belong because that wouldn't really be appropriate either um so we would almost rather you know in painter stabilize that in a different way um i would say save what you can and then let the conservator decide at the point of which you feel it needs to go to a conservator if you have a really actively flaking object i would send it as soon as you can to or at least put it in a talk to a conservator know how to store it display it um keep it away from dust and light to try to reduce the long-term effects until you can have it treated off if someone says we have some outdoor farm equipment that has been painted and repainted over the years they need to be painted again is there a better type of paint for items like these i think they're mostly metal but may have some wood bits as well yes um so this is this is painted farm equipment that gets repainted is actually very similar to large painted contemporary outdoor sculpture um it is sort of assumed that well with with contemporary outdoor sculpture it's assumed that a painted sculpture is going to have to eventually be repainted because it you're that paint coating is going to deteriorate if you have farm equipment or any kind of historic machinery that is was originally painted and has in the your collections policy is to just repaint it as necessary then i would say that the biggest thing you want to do is make sure that whatever you do there is a really good adhesion between the old paint and the new paint or completely strip it off or strip down to what was most likely the original and the reason being is that if you have dirt grime layers in between you're going to have poor adhesion and so you anything you put on you want to go um i would look at um there are a lot of different paint systems and now um a lot of times talking to a local paint representative for instance you can talk to assure one williams and say okay i have this type of machinery it's outside it's this kind of durability it should have this kind of a gloss or matte or color you can sometimes have those colors specifically custom matched if you need to make sure it's the exact same um so there there's a lot of flexibility and different types of systems that conservators are recommending um so i would say it's it's that's individualized but yes you can talk to somebody about getting more specifics and really the best case scenario is if you don't want to involve a conservator is to just kind of know that the best interaction between the existing surface and that new paint you want that to really work well together some paints don't bond to other old paints or don't bond to certain types of metals sometimes if you're going to strip it you have to actually prepare the metal in a certain way and that may not be appropriate for the current farm equipment based on the interstices and the type of metal it is and so again you want to really think about it on a case by case basis but making sure that you've got good adhesion properties as to talking to a specific paint representative would work from whatever company you feel appropriate i love the idea of talking to a paint rep like i think that's a super good idea because i bet there are some i used to know a guy who worked in the paint industry and he also would often hook people up with three paint sometimes so that's that's a really good way of looking at it of because he would just know who to go to so yeah i love that idea that's great yeah well and a lot of times if particularly if this is a local small institution and you have a local paint store that really wants to take sometimes they'll donate the supplies even or help you really custom match something or mix it up specifically they can find records of what it may have been there's lots of ways that you could you know make that community connection but then also um understand that it is that durability and that adhesion property that's when some of those things i talked about the very beginning um that chemical bonding and the interlocking you really want that if you have a really broken up old deteriorated coating and you don't you know sand down or strip off the areas that are flaking you're just going to have a new failed coating and so you really want to make sure you know what type of paint you're using and what how the surface needs to be prepared i'm going back to the wrapping conversation we were having earlier someone asked about the use of glassine for wrapping and what your thoughts were on that um i i almost wish one of our paintings conservators was here to talk a little bit about this we see glassine used to wrap painted surfaces a lot and unfortunately it's a very common material that um is used but we more often than not find the glassine has actually stuck to the surface and with the expand with if there's exposure to humidity or higher moisture levels in the air sometimes that glassine reacts with the paint and actually sticks to the surface um i've just particularly with a lot of newer works of art um and and it's also sort of crunchy for a lot it's it's it's got a heavier texture so if it's like a an object that has a delicate or flaking surface it's actually been more likely to cause abrasion because it is more rigid um than some of the softer more flexible films so our sort of general rule is if you're unsure don't use it um that there are places where it is appropriate um but in a lot of cases it's not appropriate interesting um someone says if i notice that a painting has started started to show signs of crack lore how will i know what agent of deterioration caused it what is the first thing to check for and or altar well i would i'd look at your environment first that's just me though but what do you think um your environment if you have um a a crack so it's like it's a painting for example and you have actual is sort of like a physical force that if something hits it you may get sort of a circular kind of radiating pattern that would be if you so if you notice that your cracks are happening in sort of like kind of a concentric circles or kind of radiating out from a central point that usually has to do with impact of some form um whether it was bumped and then it kind of caused it from there um that's usually for something that's got more of a flexible support or like if you would also notice that if you had like a metal object that had a you know had some sort of impact and then there is a dent you'd kind of see how it kind of breaks out as it goes um if you're just getting general crack lore and it's stable if it's not lifting along the edges if it's well bound a lot of times that just has to do with the drying of the paint itself um so a lot of times old objects just naturally have it a lot of times even in fired ceramics you'll see this little crackler in the glaze and a lot of times that has to do with with just like what's happened and how it ages over time and how it just sort of crisscross or cracks and so if it's stable then you don't have to worry about it as much but definitely check your environments just to make sure um if it's unstable then you want to definitely again first thing it would be the environment and finding out if it's lifting and what you could do and whether or not um what what it could be but yeah environment is usually the first one um humidity temperature well this leads us to our next question because as many people know i'm located in florida and this next question is from florida it says we have a set of painted wooden carriages which are temporarily being housed in a warehouse without climbing control then it says in florida yikes until a new exhibit building is ready about two years down the line we have observed paint flaking and cracking in the meantime what steps can we take to limit the damage from humidity and temperature changes during this transitional time that is rough because i can attest that florida yeah rough here yeah if there is any way that you could introduce dehumidify i mean that's it's tough in an outdoor space with large objects like that if there is anyway you can reduce the humidity by having more air circulation or dehumidifiers um anything you could maybe pop i mean it would take a whole lot of silica gel or desiccant to try to dry out that space um but that there's not really much you can do the object itself it's the environment and so it's it's more of just documenting it and watching it monitoring it and doing what you can and unfortunately it's a it's a purely environmental effect and um you don't really want to introduce adhesive or anything because then that's just going to cause a new problem when you bring it back to a more stable environment so you just want to slow it down as much as you can by even if you can just reduce the humidity a little bit with a few dehumidifiers or trying to like block off airflow space or you don't want to lock it in if it's a human space but if you can try to you know either have a lot of good airflow or like seal off a window that is particularly drafty or however you can benefit improve the space i'd go for it i would think like what you said about air circulation is interesting because i know that like um there's been a problem when places down here get cut off with power right and right now the museums or institutions are so hermetically sealed i like to think that if there's no air circulation and our humidity levels go up the roof like i know folks in portorico and stuff they often are able to open up windows and able to open up doors to at least allow that circulation to go through to try to stop mold growth and like all that kind of stuff so it would be interesting to kind of i would think too you might want to monitor it a little bit and see like if the if the humidity is going off the roof then it might be okay how can we get some air circulating in here how can we get things kind of a little bit more stable just generally within the space would be something to look at as well absolutely um so what should i use for daily dusting instead of our beloved swifters should something that can be hard to reach spots what should be an ideal daily cleaning routine i love swifters too but yeah i agree the big can't be in museums sadly um so if if it is the majority of the objects are we'll just say painted surfaces because that's what we're you know talking about mainly um a soft brush or in i mean earlier i said don't use dust cloths if it's a furniture for example and it has a nice hard a really smooth finish that's not flaking you can get by with a dust cloth um a microfiber cloths work great um keeping them clean and sometimes one thing i'll say they can be washed frequently which is great because they can be reusable but sometimes my microfiber cloths when they get washed they start to get hard little particulates like stuck in them little fibers and you want to make sure you don't have those because they can be a bracelet that's cracked so if you have a smooth compact hard surface then yes you can use a cloth but if anything that's highly textured or um friable you want to use a light brush or lightly vacuum if you can uh someone says how can we prevent corrosion spots on painted metal objects especially outdoor and how can one treat them after they appear is removing the paint the only way to treat the underlying corrosion um no removing paint is not always the outdoor why do we put things outside metals outside painted metals they're my least favorite because they're so but to answer the question i would say that there's it depends on the metal it depends on the paint a lot of times there are different sorts of pacifiers we can actually apply a solution and sort of like stop the metal corrosion which if it's causing pitting or causing loss of paint sometimes i can slow it down doesn't mean it's not going to start somewhere else they're not always solutions i can go over sometimes wax coatings can help reduce that um again it depends on what the type of object is and if it can tolerate a wax coating on the surface or another a durable clear coat of some sort um it's object by object there's no like easy product that you can just apply and have it stop there's no easy solution to this one if it's a smaller object or an object that could be inside or outside and there's any way to move in and if you find that this is becoming an ongoing problem that's ideal if you don't want to have to repaint regularly um and when i say regularly really with most collection objects you outdoor objects you want to repaint as little as possible because every time you repaint getting farther and farther away from that original and so it's you know really making sure that it's as far out as you can small losses in paint where there's metal corrosion a lot of times the best method is to actually cover up the corrosion with no paint so in a lot of times we'll do that locally so if you have a small like area of pitting and corrosion coming through we'll actually maybe locally like sand it down a little bit and then apply the paint if you have the same paint that's the best choice otherwise a stable conservation approved paint that is durable enough for outside that can easily be removed from that other painted surface in the future for full treatment would be best perfect and this goes back to our earlier question a little bit about the spider web someone says what do you do with fly and insect droppings on the surface now i'm going to guess it's mechanical removal first but it is mechanical removal yeah a lot of times a lot of times a really sharp scalpel blade and very carefully or like a like a metal spatula you can kind of like just knock them off don't be surprised if they take that paint with a lot of times particularly matte powdery paints poorly bound paints that paint will come right off if it's got a hard durable clear coat or a really like stable layer of paint you're going to have less likely that to happen but of course most of the historical objects that end up with fly specs don't have that come to surface but yes mechanical reaction mechanical removal is pretty much the only option you solvent removal just causes a bigger mess yeah that's been my experience too I would add to that with all the droppings plus like here we get lizard droppings too which are just so anyway well that was our last question so I'm going to refer everyone to the fact that in the chat I put in the links to our resource page which includes a copy of this presentation and some other resources that Megan put together so I would encourage you to go take a look at that there's also the survey monkey link for this webinar so please fill that out the IMLS grant we have it like another year or so in C2C care so if you fill those out and put your opinion in there that'll help us figure out what we're doing next in C2C care so I encourage you to fill out those surveys Megan do you have any other last things you want to tell our audience at all no but thank you for joining us today and if you do have any questions I am happy to answer them at any time so feel free I know my contact information is out there somewhere otherwise do you want me to post it in the chat is that useful yeah okay I will do too please do well whilst just doing that I'm going to say thank you to Megan thank you to Learning Times our producers thank you to IMLS who fund this and FAIC I hope you guys all enjoyed it and again we have that next webinar happening in November again if you deal with outdoor vehicles talk a lot about outdoor sculpture so I know people are out there dealing with large functional vehicles if you do please think about submitting it for us to take a look at at the next webinar because I think that'll be fun to kind of see what the audience has to deal with across the country and again I know you folks have them so please feel free to put them in there and yeah we hope you guys enjoyed it and I hope we will see you also though perfect there it is and Megan just put it in the chat so thanks Megan and we'll make sure that's always on the website as well okay all right thank you thank you