 And what I've come to understand is that there are these incredible pictures that contain all the information of a set of equations that are related to string theory. And it's even more bizarre than that because when you then try to understand these pictures you find out that buried in them are computer codes just like the type that you find in a browser when you go surf the web. You're saying your attempt to understand the fundamental operations of nature leads you to a set of equations that are indistinguishable from the equations that drive search engines and browsers on our computers. That is correct. Boom! What's up everyone? Welcome to Simulation. I'm your host Alan Sackian. Super pumped to be talking about simulation theory. We have Ryan Geis Pozajin joining us on the show. Hello. Thank you so much for coming on. Thank you for having me. Very grateful. Very blessed. We're finally landing this episode together after doing a lot of circling around each other. Very pumped to be talking about simulation theory with you. For those that don't know, Ryan's background. Ryan has spent 15 years in doing visual effects, computer generated imagery. He's done a lot of simulation to screen work at LucasArts, at Sony and other companies. He's a partner at Keras Capital Management right now. He's also strategic advisor at Versus, which is architecting the spatial web. He is doing lots of work in the emerging tech space. So this is the perfect topic for us. And let's dive into this from what we just listened to. We just listened to this beautiful dialogue about the codified universe, the codified world. And it's the 20th anniversary of the Matrix. It's crazy how well that illustrated what we're about to talk about. Launch us into this. Yeah. I mean, it's a beautiful appropriate time to honor that legacy that the Wachowskis were so aptly able to transmit. Very inspired by Philip K. Dick and a whole kind of lineage of Gnostic tradition behind that kind of wrapped into this technosis frame that we have now to Eric Davis. But yeah, it's a paradigm shift. It's a really amazing opportunity, I think, to evolve, to integrate and evolve our model of reality and aptly simulation on the simulation here. And we're working with Versus on the simulation, women's simulation. So it's a bit of this recursive fractal stuff, I'm sure we'll get into. But yeah, the Wachowskis, they threw out the narrative frame. Right alongside Ken Wilbur working with Integral Theory on a kind of philosophical transpersonal framework. And yeah, it's an incredible time to honor this incredible transition period, the opportunity coming through this trans-rational phase of recognizing the simulation nature of this game. And taking us all the way back on a big history perspective, we have all these like archaic means of first discovering language and art and communication, these initial inventions. And then we have this crazy period of religion and spirituality and that type of growth, a lot of the self-work process, the inward process. And now this most recent technological explosion that's occurred that has taken us into the digital world, which is all on like the objective science. So now we're kind of merging, you know, that's one of the other things about this trans-rational, as you describe it, teach us about this trans-rational of the objective and the subjective dualism. That touches a little bit on Wilbur's framework with Integral Theory. And it's kind of a synthesizing system, what he, Orobindo was another in that lineage of using this kind of a framework to map an inclusive kind of holistic mapping of or cartography of reality through like a philosophical framework. So many of our even most incredibly brilliant philosophers and thinkers have contributed very powerful types of ideology or ways of thinking, but they've been kind of partial. As much as they've been like true and there's been great power in certain kinds of thinkers, they've been partial. They haven't really mapped the whole of actuality as Wilbur kind of was carrying a thread from, it's escaping me right now. A lot of people say that it's very elusive when you're trying to explain the code of all that is. It's a very elusive thing to try and be able to explain it. Sure. And yet we're also moving into this period where it is automating itself and we can get into that more as well. But what Wilbur was doing when you were talking about like the Cartesian dualism, the interior, the exterior, there being these times that we're looking at through spiral dynamics as kind of pre-rational mapping of the interior of consciousness in a way and then you could look at from kind of the modern and postmodern phases as this process of mapping the exterior, the objective world, the subject-object dualism, that sort of thing. So primary dualism with Descartes, Wilbur kind of expanded that into pluralistic systems. So you have the left side is the interior, the subjective side, the right side is the exterior, objective side, and the bottom quadrants, so there's singular up above, so upper left is interior, singular, the eye, and then upper right is like the outer, you could say like the body and that would be the it, like my body is a thing. And then below those two quadrants you would say the lower left is like the inner subjective, like the we, the collective consciousness, unconsciousness, however you want to look at that. And then the outer lower right is the systems, right, so the kind of plural systems of the exterior, so systems theory, all of that. So this is kind of like an ontological compass you could look at that's sort of an elaboration and continuation of a lot of philosophical work and a lot of spiritual work, synthesizing together, that's just sort of the compass part of it and from there there's lots of maps of, that Wilbur's set in particular with integral theory has done an incredible job of like the kind of compatibilism for the interior traditions and meaning systems and the exterior sort of mechanics, right, like bringing that all together. He wrote amazing, amazing work, many different things, but one of them is even called the marriage of sense and soul, so that the ethos behind is very much how do we sort of reconcile the mapping of the whole of actuality. The inner and the outer, yeah, the inner and the outer and like all the systems that have evolved since then, the pluralistic, you know, what we've learned from postmodernism with the lower left and then the kind of systems theories, angles on the lower right, bringing all that together and yeah, it's created this really comprehensive framework that, you know, has been a vital pillar for the realm of transpersonal psychology and like developing that, which, you know, people are, you know, continuing the Jungian work of the collective unconscious and then also like meta-lifetime work with near-death experiences and plant medicine journeys and all that kind of stuff. It's, that's where it's sort of expanding right now, so it's kind of growing out of Wilbur's sort of kind of the baseline, I think, framework for the time. The plant medicines are really coming up big in terms of people experiencing the subtle realms in ways that were not as accessible before, except for these traditions that held those lines. So that whole side of it is opening up in terms of like the experiencing of all of this, which is a little bit different than the orthodoxies of the religions, like the religions were mapping the similar territories, but people, they were mediating them also. People weren't really able to access experiencing it for themselves. Huge shift there and the parallels with that on the interior alongside these developments with simulation theory coming out is like a serious, you know, like it's being considered, you know, in philosophical, but also scientific circles now, you know, with Bostrom's paper and like, you know, it's getting all kinds of press out there. It's got a resonance and I think it's going to continue to have an efficacy in that area, which again with the interior experiencing of medicines and or other types of altered states alongside the exterior correlates of, you know, information and blueprints and things that are coming through all of this together is kind of, I think, a continuation of the mapping project of the trans-rational period. So the period after, you know, kind of post-conventional rationality that is able to include and transcend, as Willber's heuristics have beautifully presented, the continuing of this process and more detailed cartography and it's kind of oscillating through these interior experiences into exterior forms of like, you know, literal subordinate software encoding, right? Like with the internet and AI and all these things that are evolving that we're working on now, it's like the layer of that within the game that's really taken off. So we have the internal mapping that has been done through the spiritual practices, religious practices, now this psychedelic democratization and renaissance. And then we have a, so it's a simultaneous spiritual awakening on the inner workings at the same time as we're having explosive exponential technology renaissance where these theories of superintelligence, artificial general intelligence, the passing of the torch from biological to non-biological intelligence and embedding consciousness in that so that there can be kids in Disneyland as it, you know, as experience, qualia as it goes. So, you know, so tell us about that trajectory with this torch pass to the superintelligence because simulation theory, what the matrix has done and the popularization of this culture has made it much easier for us to believe in what is this passing of the torch. Sure, exactly. And that's part of some of the fruit of the narrative paradigm. And then again, all these things that are kind of coming up in science and philosophy at this point. I mean, one thing that's interesting about it is you could look at a potential disembodied trajectory for this where it's simulations, birthing simulations on that may actually be what some are navigating as the dimensional stack coming down vibrating down into 3D. This is getting a little abstract, but like some are experiencing that and there's higher dimensional, and we're working with all kinds of brilliant minds, please, been doing some really incredible work. And, and others Garrett, Lisa, and then there's others that I've been working with in emerging tech, leveraging higher dimensional vector spaces for data storage and so on. And there's seems to be some correlation with these things, we seem to be able to be experiencing higher dimensionality when we when we're navigating these altered states. And then we obviously have this kind of denser 3D sort of layer of the game. And then we have the subordinate dimensionality that's expanding outward through virtuality within it. So it almost looks like an axis coming down in vibration and dimensionality density and then going the other direction right up higher and higher and higher through virtuality. Now, question is, is that we're experiencing a lot of like collateral impacts to have a disembodied potential of a lot of this. So there are some that many of us are drawn to simulation media, these things, but we can also see how some of this stuff has been impacting our embodied health and well being. So there's a lot of blow back. And I think very importantly, and there's really amazing people in our network like Emily Bush, who's also involved in versus and there's some that are just really focused on helping to keep this, this stuff from going into such a disembodied kind of fracture that it's colliding with other aspects of our being. So there's a question about whether this is something that's going to kind of happen in waves and that like kind of going back to an idea that we are quantum computers already. And we're, you know, bio wetware quantum computers, and that maybe we have this this kind of we can talk about this again later, but this window of time, where the subordinate simulation has been evolving in front of us and getting to this point where now it's rolling out in the 3d with what we're doing with versus in the spatial web. And may evolve from silicon into other forms and substrates, what's going on with DNA computing and quantum and all this. It could be that there's this transhumanist, you know, kind of window where rather than going, you know, there's a disembodied period, maybe, but that we're also supposed to be kind of re like sort of pulling it back into embodiment, we have a period of time we can work on it, sort of outside of ourselves in a way. And that maybe in time, it's all going to evolve back into one sort of stream we're going to computing is going to go denser and denser and denser down to, you know, DNA, which we're already doing, George shares have been, you know, encoding and decoding data, just in and out of DNA, totally aside from the, you know, biological, you know, the life functions of it, just as like a piece of like hard drive, you know, you know, using it like a hard drive or memory. So that with all the synthetic biology stuff he's been tracking and like the whole transhumanist, you know, movement and all that kind of stuff. It could be that we have a window of time to kind of, I don't know, like, refine yes, our values, our development, all the things that we want to kind of continue on through like a large macro generational torch handing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So we we've we have this this this period now where where you you know, you're calling it this, you know, this window, this transhumanist window, this the passing of the torch, what codes are we going to embed in the superintelligence, which codes will prevail across the countries across the governments across the companies, whose substrates will be the ones that people enter in on all these interesting questions. And how do we embed the how do we have discourse around which values to embed? These are all very pressing questions. And one of the things that versus is doing, which I think, you know, you should explain is, you know, we never really had a identification system for humans when this evolutionary experiment first started, it was kind of like grunt, the name and name was kind of the thing, but you wouldn't really leave go too far away. Then now it's, you know, you give these digital social profiles that anyone can find from around the world. You have an identifier to your name with your like social number or your social credit, all these types of things. And so now with what versus is doing, it's it's it's taking us into this transhumanist period with with architecting the the infrastructure, the infrastructure, the infrastructure, IOT sensors, identification tags, open data flows. So yeah, teach us about how you guys special web. Yeah, yeah. So so far, maybe I could just jump back to like the continuing continuum of simulation, like the subordinate simulation and how it's evolved into the internet kind of. Yeah, yes. And then we'll go from that to the simulation where it's going. Yeah, into versus and then into the simulation. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, we can look back at the kind of birth of the symbolic order. Once we started encoding data, you know, there's oral traditions and so on. But we started kind of, you know, scrolling the cave walls and the paintings and so on, we started externalizing data as the first, you know, like external data storage formats. And then, you know, so art has been kind of the sort of continuum of the mediums of art subordinate within. So like the game with if this is a 3d game, then like, we have this encoding stream of information that's been stored externally in this evolution of mediums, this continuum of simulation. I think Brett Leonard's talked a lot about this as well. He's another amazing visionary in the space of virtuality. So there's been all these mediums of art, music, and so on. And then, you know, they kind of build up. And then obviously, when they get to, you know, photography, then it then you have this grand synthesis with motion pictures and media, where we get this other huge paradigm integration that, you know, combines multiple senses, multiple lenses of, you know, audio, video, together. And, you know, there's the certain kind of like almost magical properties of what happens with those syncing in terms of immersion. So this whole process is kind of, it's it seems driven by like deep end immersion, in one respect, to the point that you can then get all these, you know, kind of primate bodies that are hypnotized staring at walls for hours on end, at this 2d projection, right. So this dimensional projection things is sort of definitely something alongside certain kinds of fractal patterns and scale invariance and distribution and so on. But the dimensional projection is a huge part of this thing that's always kind of been there, right. So that whole kind of thing is evolving within and then has gotten to a point where that's the mimetics evolving over time alongside our genetics into the external. So that's the external objective data encoding side of the mimetic, yeah, the mimic layer. So all these layers, whether it be like biosphere, new sphere, this is other stuff Wilbur did incredible mapping with. But these, and these are very macro categories, of course, like physiosphere, biosphere, new sphere, they have interior and exterior correlates, right. So like, there's all the stuff that's going on in our subjective mimetics, the things that are being processed in our minds individually, collectively, etc. And then this is the externalization, the data storage layer of that. Yes, is this whole continuum of virtual simulated mediums, right. And so that both like comes from this layer, it's like it, there's the 3d gross layer that information moves through into that subordinate simulation, whether it be a painting, photograph, movie, you know, media game. So that whole development right there is, we're like filtering into what ends up there and then it also feeds back very powerfully, obviously, very powerful. Exactly. It's a closed loop feedback. It's like, it's a it's a projection of our limbic system is the interwebs. And then, as Musk said, and that's a straight, yeah, feedback that's super powerful. So the things that make it through the gateways of wherever things come from right so that in some circles, there are there aren't a whole lot of great explanations other than what have been coming through the religions and the plant medicines as to where ideas come from, yeah, information is coming from. Those are some of the best that we've got. And this is an attempt to sort of reintegrate them and synthesize them from when, you know, thousands of years ago when they didn't have anything other than like books to then create a metaphor of the Kashuk libraries or something like that, you know, books were the only medium of the time or something that you could say that could be, you know, articulated. Now we have games and internets and, you know, move all these things. And so whatever that thing is of the time, we can then access and now it's at a point where it's actually creating actual simulation within the simulation, right, where it's kind of, you know, gaining some autonomy and we continuously see that coming with AI and this this window that we have with that. But basically, you know, getting to this point where the subordinate continuum has evolved now through that media layer into this internet of basically an information piping system still lends through 2D screens. And now with versus we are rolling through that into the spatial internet that is a full stack of emerging technologies that is is digitizing space, not just media and documents, but like space itself. And then within that infrastructure, the things that AI and other in other areas of emerging technologies are going to be able to do with that framework are at a whole nother level than if they're in like a walled garden in a lab or something like it's it's it's co-evolving with us in the physical space. Exactly. It's no longer just an appendage that is we keep in our pockets and access just a couple of times a day. It's now a well look at the trend of immersion, full fledged. Yeah, exactly. So the immersive qualities of having it be layered in our space, whether AR or VR, you know. I mean, just just that level of further immersive power inches as closer to simulation theory. It does. It is. I mean, it is what it is. It's the layer within the layer and also the responsibility to kind of avoid the Orwellian cautionary tale. Correct. So this is another area that people are very concerned about. There's all these gateways and windows of concern. And so we like who's actually having the hard discussions with the brain computer interface people on the planet with all the 5G infrastructure that's going into place on the planet, the longitudinal and all health effects that these things may have that how do we get a global discourse going on about synthetic biologies play in this as well as just the mimetics that are going to be who controls the substrate of where the mimetics go directly into us. Right. And you know. Right. When you know with that flow of mimetics is who owns that. How do we engage with that on a on a civil discourse on a global discourse about what is considered best on progress towards that that simulation. So the stewardship. We don't. We don't have a civil dialogue. So each drink can be married. Well, okay. So there are many theories about who is controlling these things and you know kind of studying cultural theory, culture crafting. I think Adam Curtis is a great place to kind of dig into some of that stuff about, you know, century of the self and grenades and a lot of these kinds of, you know, strategies and systems of control that have been working through prior forms of media, entertainment, pop culture. It's of course all programming systems and so on. Right. Now there's a lot of people that that almost feel like a kind of victim hood. I guess you could say against the power structures that seem to be very powerfully or kind of dominating the the filtration process of what, you know, makes it out there. However the internet, I really love it was inspired by what Klee was saying on the show about how there's been thresholds of kind of openness that have been crossed where you can't really, we've just gone past certain certain, you know, censorship thresholds it seems with the amount of freedom of information that seems to be available on the internet to whatever degree you may, you know, subscribe to that. So I think there's something that definitely happened there that there's more access, there's increasing access, and so there's other layers of emerging tech that have been coming through that seem to be along those lines that have to do with decentralization and empowerment and dissemination. And I think there's a lot of really beautiful hope and potential going on through those threads. If you combine versus how you're building out that spatial web infrastructure that if you combine that with decentralization at its finest, yes, if it's combined decentralization at its finest, that it's most pinnacle possibility, we're in good hands. Yeah, because then we're having really strong consensus protocols around decision-making. Yeah, and then we can really figure out what codes we want to embed in the super intelligence. So, okay, so now let's venture into the super intelligence more. So, so interesting is the 20th anniversary of The Matrix. We're having this conversation and all the technology is just, again, we're talking about brain-computer interfaces and distinguishable virtual realities and typology, all these crazy things. And wherever these things are going to be in 20 years, it's going to be a lot closer to making more people more aware of the possibility of simulation theory being true. Right. So, we're catalyzing an awakening of simulation theory at the same time as the exponentials in The Matrix. So, and this gets kind of crazy because as a civilization gets to this point of a singularity and get to this point of creating their own simulations, embedding consciousness in them, and watching what evolves and that has felt experience, qualia, then how is this already not? Just another version of that all the way down. Yeah, the turtles, yeah. So, yeah, so unpack this more for us. So, what way specifically? Singularity, simulations all the way down. Oh, kind of like the dysentery thing. Well, yeah. Okay, so the simulations all the way down thing is interesting, in that, again, it could be this, you know, there's a concern about the disembodied trajectory, but maybe that is how this works. There's also, like, Klee and others have been kind of, I'd love to have you mention this on your show as well, and we're doing an upcoming panel on Descendent Theory, which has come through a few different friends in our network, Stan Stelnacker and Liana Sinanda over at MAPS, and Rack, myself, T-Fairy, Lisa, we're going to be doing a panel on this with Klee at the Transpersonal Psycho-Association Conference coming up. So, the idea about this is a kind of interesting, I don't know, variant of SIM theory, where it's almost like this iterative circular process that, you know, whether it be a big bang that, you know, kind of explodes things out into differentiation, and then they sort of spin up in development. Yeah, yeah. To a point where then they start to iterate within, like we're already iterating right now within this one, so you kind of get that factual, self-similar recursion thing going on, you know, the simulation, whether the simulation that we're talking about right now, and then... This is a spiral dynamics of a whole civilization evolving. Big bang happens, civilization evolves, gets to superintelligence, creates another potential big bang that... And then, and then again, we have this sort of potential window where it's like subordinated in front of us, where we're kind of interfacing with it, again, bi-directional feedback and so on, obviously, but it's in an externalized form right now, right? Imagining that we are also already quantum computers, potentially like AI, you know, in this cycle, but like basically we would be sort of working on this layer within, you could say, and we have a period of time to grow and develop in terms of what makes it through into these gateways of what the AI, you know, ends up being sort of programmed with or what kind of... What kind of codes, you know? I think we're moving into this period from where we've been tracking like genetic code, like those physiosphere codes, those genetic codes, obviously, probably far more going on in that than we've been aware of, of course, and then memetics is another layer of coding, but then in the virtual now, we're also like getting this parallel where we're, you know, potentially going to have more universal codes underneath things in the digital space, kind of universal code substrates and so on, and also we're now in science seeing that there may be such a thing like the opening quote in physics, that there's quantum level codes that underwrite this, so again, layer within the layer and a window to kind of be working on the subordinate layer while it's mirroring and we're discovering more about the physical, you know, what's under underlying quantum and the physical, informational, essentially, and are we going to be able to integrate this in a way, like the descendent theory is sort of an idea that this is a cyclical iterative process, that like as this process develops and grows, it spins up and through into some kind of singularity, which then back simulates this whole process in iterations and that there's emergent properties that, like maybe one theory on the goal for this is that it's a filtering of both building on what's come before, we can see this in evolutionary design patterns and structures now, like evolutionary theory, developmental theory, and a lot of what Wilbur and others have been tracking in integral theory, trying to integrate that, but we see this, you know, like stabilizing force of areas of development, kind of, you know, centropy, almost, emergent, emergent theory, complexity theory, looking at what emerges as development occurs versus like the entropy effect of dispersive kind of chaotic, so there's like entropy versus entropy or centropy, right, and as development occurs, there seem to be emergent properties that are not found on lower levels and that that is sort of a kind of general heuristic of what's being sculpted by this, you know, inner outer reflexivity, you know, the process of all this densifying of information and novelty is a part of that, there's like this kind of novelty factor, but like novelty has to be harnessed by those entropy-extropy forces into functional fit, like evolutionary fit, so that creates a stabilizing structure that can be built upon and then there's emergent properties that seem to be layering through that process as it, as information becomes more dense and more complex in each phase, and so now that's what's happening again with this virtual phase, this kind of subordinate phase, and what makes it through these gateways is a selection process that, that in descendant theory is what also then back-simulates the whole thing, could be like big banks to singularities over and over again, or an expanding collapse of, you know, in a kind of eternal universe of, you know, the 3D realm, there's two different ways to look at it. So, so crucial to make sure that what is being embedded into the superintelligence into the singularity simulation is what we want as if that, you know, comes again that we want it to be embedded with the best codes. And another thing that I'm finding super fascinating about this is that if we can awaken more people to the possibility of seeing things from a big history perspective of big bang to planets and stars, to evolution on rocks, to intelligence evolving on those rocks and then to that intelligence passing off the torch to non-biological superintelligence, then that cyclical process is super fascinating awakening, awareness expanding, and I think it's very imaginative. The abstract, the amount of abstract thought that needs to, an imagination that needs to go into what that big history timelines actually like is very important I think for all children that are born into the world to at least be aware of and they can figure out how much they want to dive into it or not. But just that little bit, it catalyzes a tremendous amount of awakening and gratitude to life. To even being, yeah, yeah. And I think the religions we're stewarding, you know, in the kind of pre-rational phase and there's been this sort of, you know, turf war conflict as Wilbur's tracked this stuff so beautifully between the kind of pre-rational stages in each other and then eventually the rational and post-modern. I think that one of the great gifts of this paradigm that Wachowski's kind of in tandem with Wilbur transmitted was and is the potential to integrate these things in a way that updates the values and the meaning and all the kind of the sort of, yeah, the stewardship of consciousness and humanity that yes, it was being sort of, there's a bit of a competition amongst religions and so on, but then there's these Gnostic cores and, you know, you can look at like Campbell's work and Watts and many of these other luminaries that also contribute to, I think, integral theory in powerful ways. That beautiful stewardship can now be kind of compatibly integrated with all that we've been mapping through the scientific verifiability truth filtering that's required for the efficacy of what we've been able to model and predict and like again, that whole nature of science in itself, it's a simulation function in itself. The brain is a simulation machine, like we're seeing that kind of fractal self-similarity all over the place in terms of what the nature of simulation really is. And to also address that, whether it's biological or non-biological as it continues to develop, it could become biological again and that we could, as this process unfolds with the virtuality, it's like it could be this period where, again, it's sort of like disembodied a bit, but it could sort of synthesize and unify back into embodiment. The more that we crack the codes down into the genetic and, you know, quantum substrates and so on, informational, underlying everything, the more that it could be that our computing systems evolve down into the biological, they are DNAs, the densest storage medium that we're aware of, right? So like we could end up, as we're developing this, or as this is developing itself in many ways, it's going to continue to grow this sort of metaverse virtual sphere or whatever. It could be that it evolves back into kind of some symbiotic, that could be part of this iteration process is that it maintains a biological basis, but may be highly advanced by the spins of what can occur through the disembodied aspects of it as well. I mean, we can look at right now, like just the computational power of computers and machines so far, it's very, very fast, but like simple processes, right? Calculators, right? They can out compute almost any human, but it's a very isolated domain of computation whereas we are far more general and this is what the whole general AI kind of thing is, it's biomimicry in a lot of ways, but it's also going to evolve us beyond what we are. So I think it's a tandem kind of oscillated rhythm of dance as it goes back to singularity or whatever it's going. Yeah. Source. The solution to what people think is the Fermi paradox could potentially be that civilizations, when they reach the superintelligence threshold, just go inward. That's been something, yeah. Rather than the outward across the cosmos trying to talk to other ones, they just go inward and resimulate. And that begs the question as to whether, so if it goes a disembodied trajectory where things emanate, let's say, when we're navigating the medicines or altered states or dreams, collective unconscious, all of that, we're somewhere in this kind of higher dimensional stack that's emanating down in the 3D vibration and that this is a projection now the other way that's going to continue to go into higher disembodied dimensionality and that there's going to be intelligences in that ecosystem. That's another way that the circularity could be operating is that now it just evolves out into higher dimensions of this virtual aspect of this kind of subordinate continuum if you will, but then that also can advance all the way back up to potentially simulating which circles back down into the 3D things. That's another another way is that it could go totally disembodied. You know. Yeah. So when we when we find ourselves born into this playground that is called Earth and we start absorbing stimuli, analyzing our environment, trying to get the best codes which one of the things that's so important is to really apply this Pareto principle to all that is. What is the 20 percent of information that you have to parse for and find that's going to give you 80 percent of the knowledge of reality and how can we find those codes and make those the clearest codes for seeds that are born into the world so they can understand those codes. It's a major principle of what we care about. And another aspect to that is that we're constantly tweaking on our own development to level up for what we care about. You find meaning and purpose, align yourself with it and then you're leveling up. You're going to experience hard obstacles, adversities and that's the grit and perseverance that gets you through knowing that you that is your meaning and purpose. And so aligning these things of finding these best codes continuing to level up is kind of this game aspect. All right. You just hit on a sweet spot I think and it has to do with another area of I think fruit from this trans expansion of trans rationality to include the simulation paradigm in an actual like an expanded cartography model like taking going beyond the current integral theory maps into this kind of meta simulation integral theory cartography. So this is what's so important to have been able to include the interior what was being stewarded by these pre-rational religious or religious philosophical you know the traditions that have been stewarding the interior being able to make sure that that so that's what you know the meaning carrying right the stewardship of meaning what is all the data without the meaning of our subjective you know the qualia to the quanta. So I think this is an opportunity for us to to reframe all of that interiority into something that can be more accessible and modernized and begin to help instruct the refinement you're talking about so the refinement of codes right that goes back to this kind of general metaphysical principle I think that goes way beyond just physics the way that we've been tracking you know the principles of entropy and entropy the developmental emergence you know complexity theory all these kinds of things I think are actually metaphysical principles that you know we're seeing in that physiosphere layer we can also see them play in the biosphere the new the new sphere like we can see these friction flow entropy entropy kinds of you know governing dynamics and I think I think that that kind of stuff is all all those principles are sort of sculpting this feedback between interior and exterior and this paradigm has potential for being able to to synthesize it again right to really unite the fruits of what has been carried by these traditions and what is now being so powerfully and dominant domineeringly sort of mapped and through modernity industrialization and so on I think this is one of them I mean like the integration codes are kind of like master heuristic for the harmonization and coherence of humanity at this time and then also the you know what's what's moving through us I love how you said that it's there's a process of sculpting that's occurring sculpting yeah it's so beautifully illustrated that way that that as the earth has been doing these countless orbits around the star that there has been a process of sculpting from the single sulta multi-sulta animal to human sculpting and development sculpting and development it's been orbiting the sun's been orbiting it's just been in the Milky Way it's just been insane to see the sculpting occurring and now when you find us here it's up to us to embed the best codes in these final days of sculpting prior to the new simulations yes and so it's become if not the most important thing to do to have this conversation to think about it like well how do we want to sculpt civilizations code deployments to the super intelligence yes and if you look at the history of civilization you can look at the competing ideologies as software I mean just look at it all as a big video game yes yes part of the power of how we can really be trained running their own software the US is running their own software ideology is software if you just start looking at the news sphere as a software system software engineering just translate everything into that these kind of terms so looking at these competitions of both you know belief systems you know belief is very closely tied to ideology ideology is kind of like a like a a roll out of a system emanating from an ethos and a belief right so these we have all these different kinds of competing belief systems that ideology springs from and ideologies like the mobilization platform for it civilizational operating systems such as governance systems national interests and you know all kinds of it's obviously evolved into the corporate you know kind of corporate nation states that are transnational and that are now sort of still very much influencing ideology I mean again as it emanates down into the field of action for most people being mobilized by these things ideologies that governing kind of software and then media is a huge you know kind of one of the probably dominant dissemination forums for all these things again Adam Curtis so fantastic so much of his work is tracking all these different ideological threads and very much looking at it as software so a lot of software is runaway software there's if you take a look at the amount of humans that are currently using YouTube as their video platform that those two billion humans will potentially become four billion humans using a single monopoly business substrate for video and there is Vimeo and there are some decentralized options that are coming up but it's become a runaway market share and that is very this becomes very interesting because we're talking about what memetics what code is being embedded how do you have someone that just starts up their video platform try and compete with a video platform that already has two billion plus people using it the way that the code the way that so the way that this can be leveraged is the way that you get something like Uber so in emerging technologies there's different waves just we're talking about emerging like evolutionary development biology or you know any any other sphere but looking at it here in terms of emerging tech you have emergent properties that were not present in a prior wave of whether infrastructure software etc so before we had this third wave of mobile GPS's and app stores and all these things you didn't have the sort of substrate layer for there to be something like an Uber but or Netflix or whatever right so like once once you get these infrastructure layers that's how a Netflix can unseat a blockbuster if you ride that wave right if you're able to ride that wave interesting there's going to be new innovations that could obsolete the old that can take out that can well I mean in at least compete it doesn't necessarily have to take it out but yeah that this is a this is part of these gateways and windows we're talking about where there's opportunities and if we have some kind of hope that we're not just inevitably on a norwell interjectory maybe we've threaded this thing in a certain way or it has been threaded or designed itself in a certain way to require there to be puzzle pieces that have to come through these gateways so that it doesn't destabilize there might that's a very kind of almost you know kind of who were religious sense of intelligent design behind this thing but like you could also you know depersonify it with it being just an iterative process and of some kind or whatever that's improving itself and we find that there is the need for stabilization in order for things to continue to occur and and the need for competition for the code to constantly be stressed and updated with what's potentially better yes yes so there are certain things like whether it be principles of decentralization or you know other areas of emerging technology where we have these kind of new windows that are coming I mean we still have people that are finding ways to leverage you know prior ways but you know this is the kind of stuff that we're very excited about with the spatial web with verses with with many of the different companies we're working with and in the emerging tech space right now is kind of helped steward the process a bit with a bit more democratization of the ideas that can come in and and write them yes yes one of the best way one of the best ways to update the code that we're going to embed into superintelligence is to make it make it more frictionless for ideas for memetics to to compete with one another in the marketplace you know that way we can figure out what is actually best across like that consensus that consensus we're gonna we're gonna be working on ways for there to be just as our system has been able to very interestingly you know there's some ways that we've gotta give some serious credit to like the quality of life improvement in many ways you know comparing now to many years ago so however much we might get wrapped up in like control schemes and you know the the sort of monopolization or dominate domination of you know areas of our media or something like this we we also have an incredible quality of life improvement as this developmental process has occurred and some of this rests on economic factors and gamification and so on and we can we can harness these principles alongside democratization and greater access and create incentive structures and really harness you know beautiful expansions of economics like tokenization and tokenomic you know gamifying tokenomic systems that it you know what what we're talking about underneath all of the mechanics of how this works is like being able to get different kinds of value internalized into our into our economy we're dealing with so many externalizations like externalities of you know not just climate impact but of the interior that is being mined right so whether we have extractive mining going on with our our planetary resources that is backfiring you know the impacts of it are backfiring and we're seeing the destabilization in those areas we're seeing the same thing with collateral impacts of the attention mining of consciousness the interior so this is only amplifying the more immersive this gets and we have an opportunity to leverage a lot of these kind of emerging blueprints to to harmonize these things I mean that's that's really I think a lot of a lot of the the goal here is you know some people even get triggered by this evolving virtuality because they see the impacts of it it's like you know people seeing how technology seems to be a driving force that is both kind of impacting the environment and our interior consciousness and those that are very focused on embodiment and health and the physical 3D which I greatly appreciate I mean we need those voices to be in all these rooms and I'm so grateful to people like Jamie Whale and others that are you know kind of tugging our our kind of you know maintaining the stability harmony on on these areas because it's true they are in their excesses and polarizations they are they are impacting other areas of our being and our and our planet and so on so we're colors on a color wheel in terms of our role in the in the game so orange does a certain action blue does a certain action red yellow they all do certain actions some is just engaging on a one on one level making an impact on a butterfly effect one person some is these moons shot 8 billion person impact ideas and all the spectrum in between yeah and and just this principle of harmonizing and really including the heart and the the amazing systems that have already arisen in their design and including all of this stuff and layering and integrating and having it all work together and serve like the whole system bottom up the whole thing rather than being you know we've been impacted by this phase where computation has had us leaning over into you know crazy ergonomics and you know staring at screens and all that well the spatial web we I mean we've got this really incredible opportunity with with what we're doing with the infrastructure with the spatial web ar ar holds a lot of potential for the the a whole new integrated approach to what we experience computing to be now we've got to get out of this like you know we're working on how to continue to serve and meet the system where it's at with however we have this extracted mining imperative that's going on that's constantly you know mining our attention mining our you know it's it's really sucking consciousness up and and impacting heck out of it and so we're we're really working on how to there are some incredible blueprints coming through for how to balance like both catering to those levels while while stabilize you know in some in sort of like a stabilizing factor because they were kind of more fundamental but then also yeah like like just harmonizing our relationship to to the whole system basically to the whole system of all that is yeah yeah and and one of the most powerful tactics to do that is a process of of meditation of inward reflection of self practice and self work and and and and that's got to be internalized into the external model like that's where like you know we have to have the embodied practice we have to have that whole side that is kind of you know subjective instead of extracted mining it's it's sort of investing in growing in the subjective side but then that has to be internalized into our economic models and some kind of gamified to incentivize right because then you get these whole systems where you know you got to give some credit to these you know Facebooks and Google's and so on with the way that they're really integrating mindfulness into their daily they've got you know yoga and this they're you know for all the impacts that we see the casino style you know Tristan Harris kind of critique of it's true but there are also ways that people are in these even in these systems that are they're seeing the value of growing growing us up in a healthier way and so the codes are percolating they are they're moving around yeah they're being updated and over time and it's up to us to be able to determine which ones we want to write and deploy and put into the marketplace and have people vote on them and this is this is a very exciting time you know our our our questions that we usually ask on the show have been pretty much answered by you already like we ask are we alone in the cosmos and if we're in a simulation yes those questions that's the topic this topic of this show that's what we're there's there's probably important to you know hear your thoughts a bit you started telling us a bit about this like densifying one thing I could offer yeah if it's okay it would be a little bit of autobiographical information as to how I arrived at some of this stuff yeah well the 15 years of of simulation to screen is that's a huge part of of this because this gave you a really abstract way of realizing that you can do visual effects that give people to consume mimetics at unprecedented rates of awareness expansion that's a big one but yeah give us give us that I mean I want a biographical background yeah I mean with how much time do we have yeah give us this a little bit yeah give us so I mean I kind of started off as an artist originally and my grandfather worked at Hughes Aircraft doing moon missions and he was a rocket scientist and retired early and kind of started tutoring me with computers so from a very young age I was tearing up apart and programming and so this kind of art and tech side kind of co-developed and then the great simulation spectacle of cinema was just this you know huge you know draw for me constantly so all these things came together again in this field of visual effects and that just kind of you know that that became sort of the the main pursuit for quite a long time which was focusing on the full spectrum from art through the sciences and all the technical sides and having to kind of learn the supervise all the different angles of all of it kind of as a generalist and supervisor and times producer and the business side as well so it was a big ingestion period of how to simulate anything and learning about how all of this works to simulate the screen yeah yeah and um so I was a bit like almost even kind of out of balance in that phase in terms of my interior I was very focused on that outer you know kind of recursive magic which it really you know is a magic and uh and then in time just on my on the personal side for me I think the the interior and the the sort of when we're talking about those meeting systems I was always studying philosophy and psychology and religion and all these things were always just almost compulsive obsessive compulsive fascinations and I was always studying them but I wasn't in deep practice and it took a lot of what I call this shadow teachers the illnesses traumas and fears to kind of force my force me out of hibernation and you know in the matrix you could say yeah into into the the work of the plant medicines and so then that you know breaks open this whole other realm of navigation through first person experience which I think is huge really important yes yes and a massive and I just want to give some credit and like deep bow to all the traditions that have been carrying out this work into those that have been trying to help you know maps and all these other organizations I'm so grateful to be working with and like to bend Buddhist meditation practices all the traditions that are carrying these that are that are carrying that thousands of years I mean I look at this stuff exactly and it's and that is all a mastery epigenetic teacher to to people the lineage process absolutely the lineages yeah so now I have you know I've always studied them but now I'm in a whole other area of kind of practice and again the subjective computation of what has to go through embodiment and to then I think really make it through that filtration system through all the layers of meaning and you know the kind of computation that is what we are embodied and to have that you know healing and growth that I've experienced in my own life from a lot of these other kinds of impacts of areas of the matrix that you know we all we all navigate that is a reharmonization of my own trajectory that then filters through into this other work that we're doing and I feel like the democratization of that is also a really important imperative at this time and so just wanted to kind of do a deep bow to all those working in these areas yeah huge deep bow to that and also to you because this is you're giving us your autobiography and it's really explains how you got to where you are today quite well it's the that that the blend of those stimuli gets you to yeah where you're at right now and and you bow to you to versus and to what is going on right now with the awakening towards the codes and what we're embedding into super intelligence for round two on the on the on what exists beyond the 3d reality yeah the higher dimensional layers of the game yeah yeah give us a little taste at that and then we'll cover it on the one second well again I think some of that goes back to the transpersonal realms and collective unconscious you know those were the the lineages that the that we just talked about that the religions were holding and caring and many others are also experiencing all kinds of things in the sort of supernatural area you could say that I think will be given a bit more again as we translate these things from either pre-rational or hyper dimensional into the kind of more hyper dimensional technological kind of game lens right like if we're looking at it like as a bit of a video game and we can see the efficacious nature of that and it's showing itself you know through our sciences and what can be verified as actually reflecting the fabric of reality and when in the way that the way that this that this game is architected and constructed and design etc that the illumination through these medicine experiences maybe that's another way to look at it is there's many different modalities and the the plant medicines can be one of the most powerful there are many others but the enthe the entheogens I think are a very powerful way to access in the right containers in the right you know contacts and I think I think that gateway is a huge eye-opener for people and again it's necessary it's it's part of the ship there's the exterior paradigm of you know these things like integral theory and simulation theories being these these outer exterior mapping systems and paradigms that that we can work with and frame but we need to experience them like this is part of one of the things that has happened through you know periods of extreme orthodoxy and like the political nature of religions and how they became these very political empires and so on is they mediation centralization and mediation having to take someone else's word for something has become you know something that I think like you know those that are now in this phase that are you know extreme vocal critics of those kinds of heuristics of the pre-rational phases like folks like Sam Harris and others they're really you know continuing to hammer away at those aspects of the orthodoxy of the pre-rational religions that anything should be kind of taken on faith or that there should be anything that that truth claims that are that are not directly observable and this is where the medicines really open that up for a lot of people to be able to navigate and I I look forward to seeing more of those very illuminated minds being able to access these realms and and report back yes yes this whatever is happening beyond the 3D reality is a very exciting conversation to be able to unpack on a on a future conversation together as well as as well as as you as you gave us a little hint at the what are the uses of of psychedelics in this process of understanding the codes that we want to understand about what is this beyond 3D what are we going to embed into super intelligence so so much good stuff in the first time that we were able to sit down together on the show and and discuss you did an incredible job of helping me filter way too much information that you might feel down to a comprehensive package we spent we spent two hours synthesizing what was like a couple hundred words into just like 25 to 30 bullet points that helped us be able to break this down into phase one phase two round one round two round three etc potentially bringing on other guests to be unpacking this this simulation theory and all of the good stuff that that came along with it Ryan thanks a lot for coming on to the show we usually ask at least the at least the question that you haven't answered is what's the most beautiful thing in the world the most beautiful thing in the world the all seeing eye so the subjective eye the eye within every one of us that is all one eye so not just that eye but the eye yeah so that witness interesting yeah the witness of the eye the self but also the witness of the collective of all that is which is with looking out within every eye eye yeah is the all seeing eye yeah very beautiful and all the you know phantasmagoric novelty and emergent beauty that it beholds is also inseparable but I would go all the way to the eye yeah the great witness observer I love it I'm very excited for our continued conversations and shows Ryan thanks super thank you so much for having me thank you for all the good work you're doing thank you thank you yes yes and thanks everyone for tuning in we greatly appreciate you tuning in we would love to hear your thoughts in the comments below let us know what you thought about this episode let us know what you think about Ryan's work you can check out all those links below to Ryan's work also go and build the future everyone manifest your dreams into the world support the artists and entrepreneurs that you believe in and support simulation our links are below as well huge shout out to Ron Vargas a producer and director for producing this episode and we love you very much and we will see you soon peace