 very prevalent for therapists especially the beginning therapists who want to rush in and help and you know utilise their try hard drive to a large extent and put a lot of energy into connecting and as I'm saying often the client can feel overwhelmed and withdraw even more. Yeah totally which again it does come with experience you know and and I know we spoke about it in other podcasts you know silence can be quite profound in the therapy room and having space. We demystify what goes on behind the therapy room door. Join us on this voyage of discovery and co-creative conversations. This is The Therapy Show behind closed doors podcast with Bob Cook and Jackie Jones. Okay okay welcome back to episode 82 of The Therapy Show behind closed doors with Bob Cook and myself Jackie Jones. Gosh so 82. The last one yeah the last one of this year. It's the last one of the year. The last one of the year and what we're going to be talking about is attachment which I think is is quite apt. I'm attached to seeing you every Thursday Bob when we do these podcasts. Yeah yeah yeah so to touch yes and you of course. So attachment styles. Now I trained people for a very long time in transaction analysis and now integrated transaction analysis and both of the models are contact-oriented models. In other words there's an emphasis on connection and as important interruptions to connection. Yeah okay so it's important to understand attachments because connection and attachment in the same ballpark and there's been so much written on it. I mean the sort of major theorists over the years have written many many different ideas on attachments. Probably the just as Freud was the father of psychoanalysis I think Bowlby. Yeah probably the father of a who talks many years ago about different attachment styles. Also Winnicott who was a child psychoanalyst talk a lot about attachment styles and what that actually means in terms of connection disturbance and how they funk how people different attachment styles function in life and the problems that may or may not bring. Yeah so connections attachment styles are really important I think for therapists to think about and the templates of also templates for working clinically in terms of treatment planning etc is really important. So it would be odd you know Jackie in any training of psychotherapists if you didn't have at least a weekend on attachment styles. Yeah yeah it would be really odd. So I could talk about many different things but if we talk about very briefly Bowlby's different attachment styles we've got avoidant attachment we've got anxious attachment we've got ambivalent attachment we've got disorganized attachment so we've got different attachment styles and there's many things many books being written about of different attachment styles but I'll kick off and say one of the things I think about you know despite what attachment styles they come from is how the person attaches to me or doesn't attach to me in the therapeutic process and what that means yeah is a really good starting point for me. Yeah what about you? Yeah absolutely and again you know from my own personal background being a foster carer as well you know attachment and how that impacts a relationship going forward is is really important yeah my own as well as those because there's always two people you know involved in that connection there's an energy going from one to the other it's not like it's just about our attachment style or there is we we connect with each other theoretically so yeah really important. So in your fostering experience uh were you taught attachment processes or did you have learned them yourself or? I trained as a nursery nurse that was one of my first jobs so Bulby was quite you know we did a lot about attachment styles and everything but you know obviously in a nursery setting and a school setting you know that first day at school and how different children react differently to to that first day at school and being left whether it's in a nursery or whatever and how that can you know impact on a child how it's how it's dealt with you know it's not a trauma but dependence on how we deal with it it is traumatic. I would think any I'm pushing you up I know it's a nurse but I was just thinking fostering again I would think that all the kids that you dealt with would have had severe approaches in attachment yeah yeah from significant others yeah and how that manifests is surprisingly unique to each individual child as well. Gosh how did you find that? Through doing it for 12 years you know what I mean it's like I never took it for granted how a child was going to react or respond to me because they were all unique you know from regression having a strapping 15 year old teenage boy completely regressing in their behaviour you know and not being what you expect as a female feeling quite daunted by this you know six foot strapping lad walking in to being met with somebody who was displaying a much younger age in front of me and what caused that do you think? I don't know but obviously they're in childhood you know what I mean that that complete shift and reverting back to how it was for them in a past a past life yeah I've got that bit but I'll probably I'm indicating what I meant what was the trigger for that process you know what triggered the regression do you think? The fear of the unknown they didn't know what they were walking into right that's what I was getting to yeah yeah yeah yeah so that's exactly yeah they didn't know what they were going to walk into yeah and how could they attach to you? A protection yeah you know it's self-survival and all those sort of things but yeah it is unique you'd get the ones that if it was all bravado you know to me that you were nothing to them and you know that bravado would be there for a while to them not even acknowledging you were even there they'd walk into your house and not even have eye contact with you because again it's a you know it's a self-preservation but if they've got an ambivalence attachment style or you're not going to be you're not going to stick around so I don't need to make contact with you you're not that important to me yeah you see I think what the way you're talking is really important because you're talking from a developmental perspective yeah and when we think of attachment styles we need to think developmentally yeah because how can I explain this the attachment style is essentially a coping mechanism to survive whether it be ambivalent whether it be anxious whichever way we look at this people choose these attachment styles if you want to say the word choose as a way of coping in life yeah and the other thing that really used to strike me again particularly with the fostering but probably in the therapy room as well is that you know their behaviour was a way of communicating something to me absolutely without the spoken word whatever they were displaying in their behaviour was a form of communication and it was up to me to try and decode that a lot of the time I think that's really really important what you've just said uh and often they're non-verbal non-verbal behaviours uh were clued to what we have yeah yeah the standard attachment styles so for example if somebody regresses in front of you and withdraws and doesn't speak or regresses to a place where they don't have contact with you then if you understand attachment styles in a developmental perspective it gives you a clue to what's going on and how to be yeah in the therapy room yeah because we all have attachment styles it's part of being a human being you know we can have a very this is one thing that always used to come up for me in training was we can have a really healthy appropriate happy childhood but we will always have something from that that we take into our presence you know it's not all doom and gloom but you know having a healthy happy life means that we would probably have a very resilient attachment style oh oh put in bulb is term a secure attachment yeah yeah so it's not it's not just about the bad stuff even you know if you nothing ever goes wrong which is highly unlikely in your past you will have behaviours because of your past experiences whatever they are whether it like you said it's really secure and it's trusting and everything but that's based on your experience of growing up that's right and if we think developmentally there's a concept from ta which i really like which is the four extensional life positions yeah which you can put together with attachment styles so for burn the four extensional life positions that we learn in childhood as a way of coping if you like you'd have i'm okay you're not okay yeah you know i'm not okay you are okay the most resilient of them all of course i'm okay you are okay that secure attachment yeah then the uh which often leaves the disorganized attachment is i'm not okay you are not okay yeah if you put them across with the attachment styles you know if you think about this way somebody's got an i'm okay you're not okay position existential position they're more likely to not trust people to have a disorganized way of thinking perhaps because they don't trust themselves they don't trust other people they think of is out to get them they're more likely to perhaps uh move to a position of homicide or even move to a position of attacking yeah because they see the world in such a scary place somebody from i'm okay you're not okay is much more likely to go to a paranoid position and the attachment is going to be pretty avoidant really so you can start putting these existential life positions with the attachment yeah post this is and you get a quite a um a comprehensive diagnostic system yeah how how you can treat or work with people i i did find the life positions or the okay corral or whatever you want to call it really helpful i refer back to that again and again and again yeah yes because these life positions will also reflect their attachment styles yeah yeah and uh you know in the therapy rule uh you sounds like you think of the existential positions in terms of diagnosis quite a lot yeah yeah i'm bringing it into the the client's awareness as well that we do you know we do have these different places you know on how we feel about ourselves and the other person but yeah i i i am quite educational in in my sessions and i i i like it i like structure myself so to be able to talk with that you know tool with a client i find really useful that's right so somebody's got an avoidant attachment for example they're going to be quite withdrawn yeah and they're not only going to be quite withdrawn in terms of the physical energy but also in their energetic response to you so it'll be quite passive yeah and next bit is how you contact or attempt to contact somebody from an avoidant place because usually their motivation to connect with you will be low now the next question i always used to think to myself well not a question a statement really was that well they had enough motivation to come to therapy so their desire is to connect yeah that's it's just their history is against them yeah yeah which is really interesting you know how do you connect with somebody because and again when i said earlier on about you know it takes two to make a connection and i i'm quite happy talking about me personally but for me you know i've got a quite a strong please others and people pleases so if i've got somebody that's quite ambivalent about making that connection it's really easy for me to constantly try to make that connection with that person yeah and that's a good way to put it because it may it may be they have a relational need for initiation which hasn't been met yeah at the same time one of the dangers might be that they would be overwhelmed that's exactly my you know my point that to dip in and dip out is okay for some people you know for me out of my awareness it's i've done something wrong if they disconnect so it's it's really interesting the dynamics that can take place around attachment styles i think what you're talking about is very prevalent for therapists especially the beginning therapists who want to rush in and help and you know utilize their tree try hard drive it to a large extent and and put a lot of energy yeah connecting and as as i'm saying often the client can feel overwhelmed yeah with two or even more yeah totally which again it does come with experience you know and i know we spoke about it in other podcasts you know silence can be quite profound in the therapy room and having space to just hold the client if that makes sense rather than trying to fix the client all the time yeah in other podcasts we should have should it be about the dangers of attempted to invert a code fixed clients yeah yeah because the only person who couldn't fix the client is themselves yeah the beginning therapist was certainly often come from that position yeah i did in the beginning that was why i went into you know fostering and nursery nursing and being a therapist it was you know my my past it was my job to fix people that soon won't that that's not the way to do it well the problem is the only person in the end who can fix themselves unfortunately it's the client absolutely help them on the way yeah you can help them become more aware of their coping mechanisms and their quick decisions and how it you know plays out today and in the end they're the only people who can really take ownership and responsibility for change however beginning therapist particularly and often the very experienced ones fall into this trap of ups trying too hard or over how the client then feels overwhelmed and overstimulated and moves away yeah and i think with experience or you know just just learning to be okay with ourselves as therapists you just start to back off a little bit with clients and the impact of that is quite positive i think and having an awareness that you know my state of mind fluctuates as much as what the client does and sometimes i will be in my script but being aware of when i'm in my script is is really a valid thing to do and and to be able to be authentic in the therapy room well that's why the uk cp which is not a cancer psychotherapy regulating body requires all people who are trained to be therapists to have at least 40 hours of their own therapy per year yeah she's 160 over the four years of training yeah the reason for that is is exactly what you're talking about here is that they have enough awareness perhaps to be aware in the moment they're acting out of from their own script yeah and change it or least get to a place where they can move to an adult position yeah whereas clients of course you know are usually unaware they're acting out the script yeah i think the therapist from my position i think they have a duty to actually understand their own script and understand their own therapy process so they don't merge with their clients yeah yeah and understanding that we have attachment styles as well you know we're not immune to all of the things that we're working through with our clients we also need to work through on ourselves exactly like what you were saying yeah if we can stay an adult we won't act out so much but but but the the clue to all this is your own therapy yeah and i always get appalled and pardon me for all these cancers that might be listening but i always get appalled when i am reminded that the BACP which is the Regulating Body really for cancers don't ask for any cancelling and their cancers to have therapy themselves or cancel themselves i know most cancelling programs may demand that if you're trained to be a counselor they should have some cancelling it's not by the Regulating Body but even so quite often people in counselling training are only required by their training bodies that the body it is to have 20 hours yeah four years and i think it doesn't help them not in the long run yeah i often joke that i didn't realise there was anything wrong with me until i started doing my therapy training i thought i was fine until i started training yeah and i think that's a very common reaction and then four years later you realise that you you've dealt with a lot of challenges and with clients then you're more able to be aware of when you're in script quicker yes yeah i'm saying that you won't move into script script and still be unaware of it but you have at least you have more chance to get out of script quicker and have some reflection and therapy to process so you don't merge with your clients yeah and again supervision is always really important with all of this yeah you know not just personal therapy but having supervision that you can take things to as well yeah you are right about though what you're talking about which is the reflection that therapists come often for their own attachment styles the point i'm making though though is if you have therapy you know consistent therapy you can become aware quicker of your attachment styles yeah hopefully move for a more secure one yeah but you don't have to add the therapy room yeah because i think for me you know and again i might be looking through rose colour glasses or whatever but i i'm very aware of my attachment to the clients you know it's not like it's just a job and i go in there without me personally being in the room if that makes sense it's not clinical for me it's important that i do connect with the client and that there is a relationship that builds up over time with that client and i'm invested in that well i'd like to call it a clinical relationship yes yeah i mean i think that's important it's not but you know i think it's important because you work with the clients will have a clinical focus a part of the clinical focus that i've known you a long time is relationship is important definitely yeah the relationships the relationship aids cure for the client in the long run yeah so there's a clinical thinking about having relationship in terms of the therapy that you do it isn't like the relationship you have at home or socially or there's absolutely not no yeah i think that's important to mention otherwise you know there can be a no differentiation in relationships so i know we use the clinical focus here 100% but i also need to be completely authentic and transparent in that relationship as well you talked about the therapist client relationship here yeah yeah because for me i think clients can sniff out if you're not being authentic no you're absolutely right but the question is i agree and that's a great i have the same principle as you and that will lead to curative functions and the reflective question is a how do you know you're being authentic you know and your authentic is and all that sort of stuff you talk about and for me unless you're ths when to be aware when you're in our script or not will only come from reflection in the therapy of your own yeah yeah then you'll know whether you're being authentic or not yeah but i agree with you that the aim is an authentic clinical relationship where you build up a robustness so the client can trust you in a safe place to be able to do the work they need yeah and you know to finish up with bob like you always say you know therapy is a you know it's a protest not an event and that goes for us as well you know it's it's not as soon as we qualify that we've got all the answers and everything's fine because like will froze a curve ball and it is a process you're right and hopefully we can offer our clients a space for secure attachment yeah because it's from that place awareness and cure is most likely to happen yeah and um of course again i'll say that a person's attachment style is their coping mechanism so to get a place of secure attachment um is a process not an event yeah as you just said yeah but do think for a therapist to think developmentally and think about connections and attachment styles and the interruptions to contact is a wonderful template for the way forward clinically positively yeah definitely so thank you bob you're welcome if this is our last one of the year what a way to end i know yeah i think it's a really good place to end and maybe what we should do next time is you know what do we do if a client leaves unexpectedly that's another one for a podcast yeah another one of course is um a wonderful book that eric burn wrote was called what do you say after you say hello in uh 1969 all about script theory i've got that yeah and it's like what you know what what what do we say um from the moment of beginnings with our clients is that you know what do we say after say hello so is it make a good podcast wouldn't it it would it would so will it'll it'll be a surprise when we come back in the new year what the first one is going to be who knows yeah 2000 oh my god 2023 yes i'll be 73 well it's i don't even know where the last three years have gone bob to be honest well i hope it's a wonderful new year for you and uh you too yeah and here's to that your health and also many many connections through podcasts and you said earlier i wish you know all the viewer viewers in our youtube channel and listeners um a very good new year yeah that's that word yeah i think that's a lovely way to end yeah and a happy new year absolutely okay don't bob until next time thank you so much see you in 2023 i'll see you next year yeah you've been listening to the therapy show behind closed doors podcast we hope you enjoyed the show don't forget to 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