 I apologize we're getting a late start because we've got folks calling in and we're trying to get a quorum so my apologies for the late start hello this meeting called order apologies to everyone for the late start we are just trying to get folks here so there are three of us from the police commission in person and we have Susie Cumberford on phone on Jabu's phone Karen Paul oh on Stephanie Seguino's phone we have Karen Paul City Councilor Paul on my phone and then we have City Councilor Stromberg on Commissioner Gamash's phone so we have a quorum it's it's an awkward quorum but we have one and we think we will be getting some more folks in person but we're gonna we have the quorum so it what I want to check is whether we have any modifications to the agenda for tonight no modifications so I'll entertain a motion to accept the agenda great all in favor thank you thank you and then a do we have a motion to approve the minutes from June 23rd 2021 seconded by Jane by and I hope we're okay with first names that's how we've traditionally done it in this group so thank you all in favor great thank you all so I'm gonna ask if there's any public comment and welcome anyone who wanted to speak publicly okay so we're you know welcome we're gonna move to agenda item 3.01 and welcome Skyler Nash from REIB with a presentation on the Talitha report and we thank you for coming and I know you were planning to be accompanied by Commissioner or Director Green yes so we appreciate you coming and I think you have you wanted to report to us correct yes yes the open to answering questions afterwards but I just wanted to come in to report back yet would it be possible to speak into the mic so yep is this good for the people on the phone okay I'll try to speak louder so the REIB received a final report from the Talitha consultant group first I should say I'm the deputy contract manager for the Talitha contract Director Green is the primary contract manager and one when once we reviewed the final report in comparison to the deliverables initially laid out in the response given to the joint committee by Talitha we started to notice that there were things that were left out that we were expecting to have at the end of this process and big parts of this contract that we were expecting to have namely so namely this would be a public safety program element that would be laid laid out by Talitha and in their response to the RFP this was supposed to be a plan that included a transparent and accessible sustainable platform for community input Burlington specific recommendations and tools to assist responders methods for assessing and sustaining service equity culturally grounded materials that reflected the community served and then a recommendation can everybody hear me great and the last part of that was a recommendation for an implementation budget as well as a schedule that spanned multiple years with estimated staff resource requirements evaluation practices and accountability reporting and so when you see that in the response for RFP leading into this process that was supposed to be the main part of the final report in concert with a public safety community survey but once we received the final report instead of a comprehensive program description it was just limited to bullet point recommendations that were later expanded on in the final report so I can talk a little bit more in depth later on about some of the specific problems with some of these recommendations but I think the overview for us is that given what we were expecting from Talitha's response to the RFP initially put out by the Joint Committee and through this process that the final report isn't satisfying what we expected out of this process. You have more comments or I know we're gonna have questions when you're ready but I don't want to interrupt. No we can just do questions I think. So going back to what you were just talking about when you said that there and can folks on the phone hear me this shorty so you might have to repeat what I'm asking I'm sorry. Do you know if when you're saying there were bullets were those as to this perpetual method for gathering data is that what the bullet points addressed? So the question was in reference to my comment about the bullet pointed recommendations the bullet pointed recommendations were things laid out at the end of the final report by the Talitha team as action steps for the city. For example the first recommendation was to implement an integrated public safety response system for crisis is involving mental illness homelessness and addiction. And then after a recommendation is laid out there goes into a few paragraphs in the case of recommendation one the expansion is just laying out what the cahoots system is and recommending that we spend our time over the next few months learning about cahoots and potentially implementing that. And after reading that obviously most of us on the committee and within the city system know that we've been looking at cahoots long before we started the contract with Talitha that's been something that has been a focus of a lot of people on this subject. And so recommendation one doesn't provide a lot of value in terms of the final report and action steps for us advancing our work around public safety transformation. And so do I understand that it's is it silent on the issue of feedback how we gather feedback going forward them? So the question was whether the final report was silent on the topic of collecting community feedback. I can just read out the four recommendations by the Talitha team or the other three were to launch and sustain partnership and collaboration with EMS providers, the fire department and community members. The BPD must improve existing communication channels and strive for greater community participation in public safety planning. And so that was the most acute I think attempt at addressing community input for public safety. But when you go to that recommendation in the report, a lot of this is focusing on strengthening partnership between the BPD and youth members. There's, I believe, an attempt at referencing the SRO issue, whether that our sorrows would remain in Burlington schools, but they were incorrectly identified as CSOs. And so once again, when you're reading that recommendation, it doesn't really help us in terms of improving public ability to comment on public safety. And it also I think touches a little bit on something that's already been extensively litigated by different people within the city. Does anyone on the phone? Does anybody on the phone have any questions? Thank you. Hi, Susan. Oh, sorry, it's Skyler Nash. Of course. It's an easy question. Yes. Just for the people on the phone. Stephanie's coming to sit next to me to ask her question. So just for the new commissioners that came in, we have three people on the phone and here they are Jane, Karen and Susie. And so we're doing the best we can. So thank you, Skyler. So those were two major areas. One of the other things that had been brought up at the last meeting was that the survey A, there was the survey responses were not representative of the demographics of the city. And there were some suggestions that we compiled to give to letha to integrate into their report to address that problem. Can you tell us to what extent they were able to respond to our request? Yeah, so after we realized some of the flaws with both the public safety survey data that was not representative of the city, we tried to engage to letha a few different times to rectify some of these, you know, problems, errors, emissions as best as we could. It was a very difficult process to kind of go back and forth every time we saw a new error or omission in the report as we were combing through. It was hard to get straight answers about some of the things that we were hoping to address in this final report and concerns that were laid out. But so ultimately, no, I don't think that they were able to be addressed effectively. So just for those who are here or the media, when we say a sample is not representative, what it means is it doesn't reflect the demographics of the city. So for example, in the survey, 42% of respondents had a master's degree, but only 21% of Berlin Tonians have a master's degree. So it was weighted towards certain groups and other groups were underrepresented. And so as I understand it, we asked them to send us data that was disaggregated by ability, disability, gender, race, socioeconomic education. And they sent a spreadsheet of that data that data was not put into tables. Is that correct? Correct. Right. And we had some communication that your office and interns would take that data and put it into tables. Correct. So that is something we could add to the report. We could rectify that omission. Yeah, yeah, from from internal analysis, if the committee wanted to go that way, that's certainly something that we could add on to the report. Because like Professor Segwino is saying, oftentimes this was just presented to us as raw data on an Excel sheets that would, you know, be incomprehensible for most people that would be trying to take in that report and figure out what was being communicated to them. Thanks. That's all my questions. Skyler, did I interrupt you earlier? Was there more you were going to present? Oh, yeah. Any other questions? I've got a good question. Apologize for being late. There was actually said the Sharon Bush or room. So Kevin and I are down there. We're like, where's everybody? So we are going to do tables. We're going to take the raw data that we have. And then my other understanding, and I apologize if you've already addressed this was that there were a large number of open ended answers. And they definitely didn't seem quite prepared for that. I think that's great. Because I think when people are forced to choose from, you know, responses that are already there, even though they were gathered from the town halls, they were the most common responses from the town halls. I think it's great that people took the time to actually say, this is what I think in handwriting that. So the plan from what I understand just want to verify is that you're going to go through those and categorize them in some way. So those type of responses are checked. And would there be an opportunity to just even uncategorize just see that data? I would be very curious and be willing to spend the time just to read all those open ended. I'm very curious as to what people you're referencing the qualitative responses. Yes. Yeah. So attached to the final report was pages and pages of qualitative data. That's both open ended responses from the public safety survey, as well as responses that were from different MPA presentations, town halls, and stakeholder engagement sessions at the beginning of the process, which is helpful. Not as helpful because it wasn't categorized, but that's something that we could do on the back end if that's the way the committee wants to go. But as we started to comb through some of that qualitative data, there were also errors in the way that the qualitative data was presented to us that could be confusing in trying to categorize it. There were sometimes the way the questions were worded on the survey. You could see that there might have been some inconsistencies in the way that people were interpreting the questions and therefore responding to them. And so overall, it's I think we just have to caution ourselves as to, you know, how much value that we're think we're going to be able to discern whether it be from the qualitative data or the quantitative data just because of a lot of those errors. And some of that is with the way that the survey was created. But then some of that is just the way that it was compiled in the final report. So did because I remember we reviewed the survey before they sent it out, did they because they brought forth the survey, they said, here's the beta testing. Everyone take a look at it. And then there was a meeting to give them suggestions. Did they either not follow the suggestions or did they make some other changes we did? Well, we had one opportunity to make edits because of the time crunch at the time. Right. So, you know, the entire committee and myself, we had one opportunity really to review those questions. I think the survey was in a much different place. Yes, before we had that first session. But unfortunately, beyond that first session, that was really all we were limited to in terms of being able to form the survey just because of the time crunch. And that was kind of the limitations that were put on us by Toletha. After that, you know, our revisions were more towards quality control, user experience, etc. Okay, thank you. Sorry, my apologies. You spoke with Stephanie about some work that can be done with the data. What is the, what is your estimate on that timeframe? Well, we've already just internally just to see if that would even be possible and be able to present that as an option have begun some of that work with the qualitative and the quantitative responses with the help of our racial justice interns. And so if that's something that would be of interest for people, I think that if we were to have another, you know, week, just to make sure that we could wrap that up. And then we would also want to get it reviewed by an outside force, not necessarily outside to the city, but just somebody outside our department. Before we presented that, that's certainly something that we could do. Okay. So for example, I was thinking I was about to say, I think that would be an excellent idea because we have the raw data. And I have no doubt that these wonderful individuals can come up with some ideas on how best to present it. Thank you. And Skyler, are you able to stick around while we discuss? Yeah, I just want to make sure if you don't mind, I appreciate your time tonight. And I just want to make sure that if we have any questions for how to move forward that we can get your input. And I know Stephanie is on her way over. Thank you. And I think someone on a phone might need to mute. I'm hearing a lot of background noise. So Stephanie, I know we had talked, did you want to propose next steps or? I mean, I think this is the report we got. The question is, what is our next step with regard to that? One option is that we go back to Talitha and ask them to do some additional work. My understanding is that the budget is exhausted. And I can propose another option for us. And that is that we ask Skyler and his team to look at the qualitative data, look at developed tables from the raw data by subgroup, gender, race, ability, and so on and so forth. And that we as a commission write an executive summary that identifies the key findings of this report. If you've seen it, it's over 200 pages. Most of that is the open ended questions. But I think that it's to make it digestible for the public that it would be beneficial for us to do like a five page executive summary that highlights what you find with the open ended questions and with the tables. So that would be my suggestion. And I would be happy to take a stab at a draft edit that we could then share with the committee members for input. I think it would be important for everybody to read the report and make sure that I can pull out what I think are the key findings. But I think it would be great for everybody to do that to make sure that we've covered what we think is important. Identify what you know what we think are the key points that came out of the study. So that would be my proposal. So you would need the REIB project completed to do that. I could certainly start writing something. Yes. But then I would integrate that once I got that. Okay. And one of our time elements here is the fact that CNA. This report is what is intended to go to CNA. So is the intention that we await the final. The data that analysis for lack of a better term with the executive summary and send that as a packet to CNA. Has CNA received all the documentation they requested. At this time because I know there was a delay with some of it. It's my understanding that they have received all the documentation and that they're in the midst right now of doing their analysis. Okay great. So they now have received everything from BPD. So we would want to get them this report sooner rather than later. But they definitely needed in a digestible form as well. I think between the department and our data gurus, I think you could put together something. I'm real curious about all that qualitative. I know it sounds crazy but I want to read it all. And I think it would actually be interesting to some people because a lot of people who didn't attend the town halls. And I think it would be interesting for them to see, hey, this is what people are actually saying. And this was tracked and these are the type of responses that we have put into categories. But if you want to see what was actually discussed because you weren't there, couldn't attend, want some transparency into the process that it's available. They choose not to read it, they choose not to read it. But I think that would be great to have that somewhere in addition to the executive summary. I should just add that the qualitative data while it is expansive, it's not what I would characterize as complete in terms of just I don't think that it's a completely accurate portrayal of all the responses of every single public meeting that we had during the Tolita process. There are missing pieces and we've discovered more of them as the racial justice interns have continued to comb through some of those qualitative responses. So that doesn't mean that it wouldn't be a good exercise to read them, but it's just that you'll probably find that there's not every single thing that was discussed in all of those public meetings is not contained in the qualitative data. So I'm just going to repeat back what was stated for those on the phone. If you don't mind and correct me if anything's lost in translation. So Milo had asked about the qualitative data and it was explained by Schuyler that what they've discovered as they continue on with the racial justice interns who were working on the Schuyler's team that they're finding that it's not all of the responses and comments that were made in you know whether it's NPA or the town, town halls. The town hall, yeah. So it's incomplete data, the qualitative. Did I get that right? Yeah. Any other questions? Well, I guess I have a concern because they were tracking that data like as people were talking on those town halls. So I'm not, I guess I would say to them all right we at least need that data because they were paid for that data. Yeah. What was the specific meeting that we were missing as we were going? There was one of the NPAs, I think. It's not a bad idea. Yeah. Schuyler, do you want, do you mind? Oh, sitting over there? Yeah, I think it makes sense. We're bringing Schuyler up to the table so everybody can hear. Yeah, just one second here. Did you, did you get an answer to your question? No. So you had to ask them a question and so. There was a, there was not every single public meeting that we had. The responses were recorded. There were some missing. There were also some answers that were duplicated in the way that they were presented in the final report. And so all of that together starts to raise a lot of questions about, you know, how much weight that we could put on the data that we're receiving. Okay. I know that because I attended almost all of them. So I definitely know that it would not surprise me that because I know that certain issues did come up. Like there were a few things that were repeated. So that wouldn't surprise me. What would be a concern is just not to have data for a particular listening session. To be clear. Sorry. When I say repeated answers, that's more in reference to the open and open answered questions from the public safety survey. Okay. And so all of this is included collectively. So that wasn't just, you know, somebody is talking about one issue and then somebody repeats that. That's when we're going through the answers and it says, you know, on this question, these were the responses to this question. And then you move three questions forward and it's the exact same responses. Okay. I see what you're saying. Okay. I guess I would definitely ask them to provide the information for the missing meetings because they were, they were literally writing that as they did the listening sessions. Yeah, you're starting to see some of the issues. That's concerning. Thank you, Skylin. I think you had a question. Yeah. So I just want to clarify. CNA is not waiting for the to lead the report and findings. They're in the midst of putting together their report right now and doing their analysis. I think that, and you know, these processes were kind of drawn up before I got here. But I think that the original idea was that with the timeline is it was originally laid out that to lead the would wrap up their process and that would be able to supplement the work that CNA is doing. But CNA's work will be complete with or without feedback from Tolita. They have all of the documents and data that they need to analyze as well as qualitative data of their own that they received from stakeholder interviews as a part of their process. So I think that CNA would look through and they've been paying attention to the to lead the process as it's unfolded. The two groups have met to exchange information about their work and processes in the past. And we'll certainly give them all the documents and information that we have. But they're not waiting on the to lead the process to end to complete their work. Yeah, of course. I think also we can complete this process within a week. If Ari, if Skyler's team can get this to us, I can turn it around in a day or two. And what I might suggest is that once that is done, then we have a Zoom meeting rather than an in-person meeting to make it easier for everybody to review the executive summary and approve it so that literally probably by next Friday this could be done. Yeah. That would be my thinking about time. I just wanted to do a quick reminder for the public. We have been using, referring to CNA, CNA, CNA, just for anyone in the public that is not aware, CNA is the consultant that has the contract to do a review of the Burlington Police Department. So apologize for referencing that and people possibly not realizing what that was. But CNA is the consultant that was hired for the review of BPD. Thank you. And the CNA does not yet have the report in its current state, correct? Correct. Any other questions from folks on the phone or in person? Yes, I have one. Oh, one second. Did you pick that question up? Did you get it? I'll repeat it. So Susie's question was, does CNA have all of the data that it has requested from all sources? I believe so, yes. So just to repeat for the camera, Susie said that after we complete this that we should have an after review of the RFP process so that we can learn from this in terms of getting what we have asked for in contracts. That sounds like a great suggestion. So while we have Skyler up here, any other questions or discussion and any discussion about Stephanie's proposal, which is kind of you to offer to prepare an executive summary? That would be awesome. So Susie offered to edit and review it and I'm hopeful that Kevin will continue to catch my typos and that I think that everybody, you know, kind of review it and do a quick turnaround if you can and we, I think we can get this out by next Friday. Yeah. Okay. Thank you. If there is nothing further, I think that that is it for the, unless anyone else has anything on the only agenda item for this evening was the presentation and our discussion of next steps. So unless there's any more discussion, we can, I can entertain a motion to adjourn and thanks Skyler and his team for their time. Could I just make it, I don't know if anybody else would like to do this, but I did bring the report and I just wanted to, it would be great to have a little bit of a discussion about what some of the highlights were, for me what stood out was the overwhelming number of people who focused on the issue of public safety being related to investments in homelessness, youth, affordable child care education and employment and I think it represents the shift we've seen in the discussion about how we define public safety, which is that it is about people who are deprived or have trauma having their needs met as a way to address public safety. So I think that, that the, what we learned in the survey is quite consistent with a lot of the conversations that we've had over the last year. There were some other things as well, but that was something that really stood out to me. It seems like an emerging theme, both locally as well as with the consultants work. Social community services directly to some of the mental health issues we're seeing. Yeah, I agree with that as well and that's why the, the two additional positions, CSLs and going to be really, really important. As Lacey mentioned in the previous meeting, she can just fill them up right now with, give them a full schedule right now after their training. So it would be really important and if the Burlington's version of Cahoots gets off the ground, that's going to be really important for our community. Thank you all for your time and do I have a motion to adjourn? Before we do that, could I just, just kind of clarify next steps? So I'm going to commit it depending on Schuyler of getting an executive summary to you all within one day of him submitting that information to me. And then I don't know if it makes sense to do now, but I think that scheduling a Zoom meeting for the Joint Committee to approve or make recommendations for changes to the Executive Committee later the next Friday. So just to lay out the process so we're clear of the timeline and can get this done expeditiously. The only concern is I actually don't know if we can have exclusively Zoom meetings. I don't know about that. Maybe one of the city counselors knows, but my understanding was, go ahead. We can't. Right. I would say that it could be a hybrid meeting, right? And then some of us who can come, but others who may be not able to could participate would that be possible here? As long as it's noticed that way. Yeah, if it's noticed, like tonight, if we had known that folks could make it, we could have noticed it as hybrid. Yeah, I know it's a kind of term, but I think it's only I'm the person here in person. I think that still works if the residents- There must be a physical location. Yeah. So can we float the idea of how does Thursday work for those on the phone and in person? Yes, a week from Thursday. I don't, I mean find the date for you. That's going to be the 12th. Yeah. I can't do the 12th. I'm happy to provide feedback, written feedback prior, but I would not be able to attend a meeting on the 12th. It's possible because you work, correct? Pardon me? Before 5.30. Oh, to start or to- Be done. Be done by 5.30. So could folks do 4.30 to 5.30 on the 12th? Does that make a difference for you in the long term? I can't commit on the 12th, yeah. I have a prior engagement. That would just be cutting it too close. So the folks on the phone, can you do the Thursday the 12th from 4.30 to 5.30? Okay. We just know it can be 20 emails back and forth if we don't do this in person. Yes. So Thursday the 12th at 4.30. Okay. So we'll get that noticed as a hybrid meeting. We'll try to find a physical space, whether it's here, we'll depend on what is available at ConToy. So thank you all. Anything else before we adjourn? Do we have a motion to adjourn? Motion by Jane Strombark. Did I get that right? Jane, was it you? Okay. And do we have a second? Seconded. Okay. All in favor? All right. Anyone opposed? Okay. Thank you all for your time tonight. And thanks for your patience with the technology. I appreciate it. Thanks everybody. Thank you. Yeah, bye.