 Thank you very much for being here. I'm going to be talking about active play, which are some of you probably wondering, well, why would I be talking about this? Of course, you know, primary play is my business. I'll tell you a little bit about what I used to do. I used to work in investment banking technology. I started out as a programmer. I worked for Microsoft in the early 90s, got head hunted by a bank, and decided to make lots of money in that area. Unfortunately, I was very sedentary, certainly wasn't very active, and I suffered the consequences in terms of damaging my health. I've been in a few documentaries in relation to living a healthier lifestyle, Eat to Live to Forever, Love Paleo, The Human Longevity Project, a recent TEDx talk Why Working Out Isn't Working Out. And my book Animal Moves discusses why we should be referencing the animal kingdom in terms of recognizing what we should be doing in terms of movement patterns, in terms of the intensity, duration, and really remembering that we are animals after all. I have a free download on the importance of play from my website, and I've recently launched Fitness Dex in relation to Animal Moves as well. So what is play? We've all got ideas. We've all got a personal definition as to what play is. One of the best that I've come across is by Dr. Stuart Brown, who wrote a book called Play. And his definition is that the opposite of play isn't work, but it's actually depression. No comedy, no laughter, no art, no willingness to have fun and enjoyment. A remarkable definition. And many researchers are actually stating now that depression is like a self-imposed hibernation. Basically, you feel as if you do not want to leave your cave. You don't want to go out and play. You don't want to explore the world around you. And so for me, this is one of the most compelling arguments to have more play in your life. The five attributes of play across all animals are based on you wanting to volunteer to take part. It's not something that is forced upon you. So that's the first attribute of play. The second, it tends to be highly repetitive. It's something that you want to do again and again and again because you find a lot of enjoyment in doing this. Third, there can be a lack of purpose. Why are you doing this? What are you trying to achieve? Just feels good is often the answer given to us by children. It also tends to be non-functional. Non-functional meaning, functional movement, if I'm running, will tend to be like so. Very efficient, very coordinated. Non-functional run would be like so. Hey, let's have some fun, which again is what kids would tend to do when they're running. And also, you tend to have to be in a stress-free state in order to want to participate. You can't be heavily sick and play. Again, these are generalizations and knees are categorized for the animal kingdom. There were three basic types of active play. Social play, social interaction, cooperative play, competitive play, object play, a cat chasing a wool ball, for example, pretending it's a mouse. And locomotion, so active play. And as I said earlier, that play is common to all animals. It isn't just about mammals. It exists in birds, in reptiles, in spiders, in the most primitive species it exists in all species. And going back to one of the earliest of the Newt's ancestors, even a T-Rex was evidence in 2015 that evidence of T-Rex is actually playing with discarded bones. So play is as whole old as the earth itself, as animal life form on earth. But we kind of know what play feels like. We can see it. We can observe it in other animals. We can see it in our peers. And we know what it's like when we experience it. And so here you can see Phoebe. And you can see Rachel from Friends. Rachel is running. Phoebe is playing. And by observing them, you can recognize a difference very easily. One person's running. The other person is playing, having fun, enjoying themselves. So my definition of play is the above. Play is not the activity. It's the attitude. It's how you feel whilst you're doing this. It's making the decision that the purpose of this is to have fun, is to explore the world around you. So play has deep evolutionary roots across cultures, across animal species. It has a common experience for all animals, all cultures. It's innate to our physical and mental development. Play can rarely proceed without pleasure, without joy, without enjoyment, without fun. Not exclusively so, but it's one of the key attributes. But it isn't always fun. And what I like to think about is casting your mind back to childhood. And there are games where you would create scenarios where you're introducing fear, the element of fear, into the game, hide and seek, peekaboo, creating an imaginary hole that you have to jump across. Within that ravine, within that hole veering over the Grand Canyon, there's a pit of snakes. If you fall in, there's a penalty. You give yourself several lives. So you discuss mortality whilst you're playing games. So it isn't always fun. It can be quite serious. Unfortunately, there's been a significant amount of play deprivation in the last few generations. Parents interviewed today, so parents of very young children who were children in the 80s and 90s, 71% of those adults played outside on a regular basis. Today, only 21% of children have access to adult space as a play space. Kids climbing trees, your three times is likely to be admitted to hospital, both in the UK and the US, falling out of bed and falling out of a tree. Pretty remarkable in one generation. And going back several generations, 2017, the majority of kids are inside, have no access to the outdoors, unless they're being chaperoned to the car. That's about it. In 2007, they had 30 yards or so of free space without adult supervision, going to the backyard and play around. In 1990, it was 300 yards from home. So probably access to the street that you were on. In 1965, kids were, on average, free roaming two miles away from home. In 1940, it was six miles of free space to do whatever you wanted without adult supervision. Today, 75% of children have less outdoor time, less active play time than prison inmates. In terms of comparing physical ability, from 1975 to the present, kids, on average, could run a mile 90 seconds faster than kids of today. The condition of the heart, heart health has declined by 5% per decade. This is looking at young children, the comparison of fitness in young children. And so the structured play, which is kind of dominated parents' ability to recognize that their kids need to move, they recognize the ability of their kids to have a certain talent. So we organize structured events to get our kids to play. We organize them, we take our kids to them, we structure them, we deliver them to our kids, we instruct them as to what they should be doing, their coached activities. There's a specific time and place that the kids have to take part in this. And it usually forms about 25% or should do from 25% of their physical activity demand. Unstructured play, which is pretty much my childhood, most of it was self-directed. I'm going to choose what I want to do with my peers. Do you want to play football? Yes. Do you want to climb a tree? Yes. No. Do you want to try going for a bike ride as far as you can, and we've got to get back home before the sun comes down? Yes. So you have the option to say yes or no. It was spontaneous. We built forts, built dens, as we call them in the UK. We'd climb trees, we'd play hide and seek, we'd play tag. But we also focus on risk. Most childhood behavior, when it comes to play, involves risky play. It involves knocking a door and running away, OK? It involves pleasure and fun and joy, and that's pretty much the only reason to do. So kids should be playing like this. And I'm hoping the adult didn't take the photo here. But there should be no adults around for most of your time as a kid playing. And there are lots of benefits of unstructured play. Those benefits include better at sporting activities, the more free play you have, better able to deal with conflict resolution, better able to assess risk, better able to have rapport both on and off the field. Free play improves creativity, academic performance. You're more likely to be well-behaved in the classroom. Play contributes to healthy brain development. So there are significant benefits of unstructured play that structured play does not provide. So of course, we're concerned about diet. We're concerned about sugar. We're concerned about how harmful that is for our kids. But most of us are not concerned about the sedentary aspects of our child's lifestyle. And we feel pretty good when we are chaperoning them to get coached by somebody, another adult usually. We feel really good about this. We feel really good about the fact that my kids are safe because I can see whatever they're doing. I can be a helicopter parent. And if helicopter parent isn't good enough, I can become like a bulldozer parent. But I want to make sure there are no hazards. There's no risk whatsoever in my child's life. Unfortunately, kids adjust very poorly to that amount of guardianship. What about elite sports? I looked into the background of many elite athletes from a certain era. This is Wayne Gretzky. And when you look at his play history, a lot of his time was actually free play. He loved ice hockey. He did lots of training. But most of his training had nothing to do with ice hockey. At four years old, he took a piece of paper and he drew a rink, an ice rink. And he would actually watch ice hockey games and trace the puck until the paper was completely full. And he would actually forecast where the puck was going to go. No one told him to do this. He wasn't instructed to do this. But he gave him the ability to think ahead when he was playing the game. He wasn't the strongest. He had lots of problems with forwards. So he devised a strategy of playing behind the net. And it was only when he left the game and explained his strategy that it became more commonplace. So play and free play was a significant part of his game. He practiced with a tennis ball because he realized a tennis ball mimics the lack of control that exists with a puck on the ice. With Mark would be ingenious. But actually, he was just being playful. Jerry Rice, I think in the NFL Hall of Fame, one of the best receivers. I hope that's right because I'm not American. But I looked into his background. And he didn't pass pretty much any of the standard tests to qualify to be an American footballer. Couldn't bench press. Couldn't do broad jumps. Couldn't do a really good 40-yard dash. Remarkably, unathletic. But what he did have was a great ability to handle the ball. What he used to do at eight or nine years old was he'd switch off the light in his bedroom. And he would basically, under the covers, would toss the ball and just have a feel for the ball. And that was all he utilized. And so when he started playing the game, he just utilized that skill he developed as a youngster to be able to have a much better feel for the ball. The Williams sisters, have you ever wondered how Serena's especially? Serena's serve is as powerful as most of the best in the game in comparison to men. Have you ever wondered why that is? Serena and Venus realized that they weren't very strong and weren't very capable of throwing or serving, playing tennis. They started to throw the racket as far as they could. It became a game of theirs. So they'd be just chucking rackets and that transferred to their ability to serve. And their dad watched them do this and decided to make it part of their regular training regimen. So play informed pretty much most of their behavior, even as elite sportsmen and women. So our emotions in terms of joy are part of this evolutionary role. It helps us to respond appropriately to our environment. And this is, again, one of the problems that our children have today, where they're not having accurate cues from their environment. They're not having accurate, peer-level reaction and responses because we expect our parents or other adults to manage our environment for us. So let's look at play in the feel-good hormones, endorphins. So we're aware of the runner's high. Play activates endorphins immediately. If you're playing within a group, you release twice as many endorphins as if you're playing by yourself. So the cooperation actually enhances and elevates endorphins. And endorphins, as well as giving us a high and a rush, actually are a natural pain reliever. It's a natural analgesic. It will actually suppress pain. So the more physical exertion that occurs within a play space, you'll be able to go for longer and for harder, which is one of the reasons why kids seem to be able to go on forever when they're playing. Dopamine. Again, dopamine, the risk-reward hormone, kids make decisions when they're playing the riskis of games. And they won't play these games when adults are around. So for example, when I was a kid, we had an apple tree in our back garden. Our neighbor had an apple tree. There were apple trees in the streets a few streets away from me. We never were interested in picking the apples in our garden. We went a few streets away. We would decide, can we get over the fence in our neighbor's garden? There's a dog in the kennel. Can we get to the tree and pick apples before the dog catches us? Can we get into the garden, pick apples? You climb up the tree. Can you get down? Can you shake the tree? So we're constantly assessing the risk to the reward. So it's a natural way for us to deal with dopamine signaling that only comes through play. Cortisol, creating this play space which invokes fear, better helps you to manage cortisol responses when you're older. So you're less likely to be anxious. You're less likely to freeze in situations which are quite hazardous. Levels of cortisol that are measured in children that have significant amount of free play are far lower than those who don't have that experience. Serotonin, 95%, 85% to 95% resides in the gut. But many of us are not aware that most of the activation occurs in the morning with sunlight based on physical activity. And so play is one of the best ways to activate serotonin in the early part of the day. Oxytocin, there's so much interaction when it comes to play with young children. Playing tag, playing chase, piggyback carrying. All of these are activities that are done because they recognize the importance of touch, even if we don't. Because it improves emotional intelligence. It improves social bonding. It helps people work better in teams. So many of us rely on technology to give our children a play experience, not recognizing that it's pretty short-lived. Most of our technology forces us, seduces us to be sedentary, seduces us to play stationary. So we need to go backwards to move forwards. And for some of us who are parents and for some of us who are considering what is the right amount of free time and free space that we should be giving to our kids because we are concerned about the dangers of the world out there. And what's remarkable about this is the fact that many of us did have that free roaming, free-ranging time. And we had an awareness of the areas that we shouldn't go to, the people that we should not be interacting with. We're able to deal with the bullies. We're able to deal with not being able to do things until we're a little bit older. We're able to have conversations with mixed-aged groups. We're able to walk great distances to school without any real issues. But a lot of that has been removed from our children's lives. And I don't understand why we're not concerned about this. When we recognize ourselves how wonderful it was to have some independence, to have some trust from our adults to be able to not bring the police back home, don't get into trouble, come back when it's time to have some dinner, come back when the lights come down, you do whatever you want. I don't want to know anything about it as long as you're okay, as long as you're safe, as long as you protect each other, as long as you look after each other. That's pretty much what many of us were told. But now, as adults, we're like, no, I'm not going to give my kid that experience. I have to see what they're doing. I have to be aware of what they're doing at every single moment of their day. So they're missing out on being able to develop independence at the earliest of ages. They find it difficult to build relationships and have trust because they never see any trust from their parents. This is a real problem for ourselves. And whether we believe there's a correlation between mental health issues and anxiety issues in our young children, in teenagers and the like, much of it is linked to play deprivation. We see in animal studies in rats, rats were play deprived, whether it's because of genetic changes, or whether it's because rats are just being removed and isolated from environments, they become more violent. They don't recognize friend or foe. They will attack their peers. They don't know how to feed correctly. They lose their ability to survive when they have play deprivation. So in closing, play was part of our evolutionary history. A third of our brain is activated with 30 minutes of play. We have genes that are recognized as being play genes, as being ludic genes that are only activated based on a play-based activity. There's an interesting study on mice and the gut microbiome. So mice that are forced to exercise who are trying to recover from celiac disease, so they're given celiac disease, they're forced to exercise, receive no health benefit from that physical activity. Mice that are actually allowed to go into a treadmill when they feel like it, who are playing, will actually have full reversal of celiac disease. So even in laboratory settings, people are starting to understand our problems of play deprivation. But who cares about evolution? Play was a big part of our recent past. Go back to the 90s, 80s, 70s and before then, free play was commonplace. Not only at home but also at school. Recess, or what we call it playtime in the UK, was a significant part of the academic day, not just because of the physical activity elements. Teachers weren't around. They were too busy in the staff room, probably having a cigarette or something like that. They didn't want to be bothered. You go out and play kids, and let us know when you're finished or when the bell goes. And so this is why I believe play should be playing a more significant role in our future. Because if we don't do something about this, and I try to separate the physical activity benefits from the play benefits, we're going to run into significant problems. Just as we can recognize when people are playing, when animals are playing, we should also be able to recognize when our children are not being allowed to play, when they're being overly stressed, overly tested, overly demanded, where we're becoming mini-mes. I want to do what I want to do. I believe your future is as an American footballer, so you're going to do all of the drills as a two-year-old, three-year-old to become the person that I want you to be. There's a significant issue here. And in that note, I'd like to finish my talk. Thank you very much. All right. So I purposefully left quite a bit of time for you to ask questions, because I do want to be challenged. And I have a lot of opinions of this on this, and I'm pretty emotive about this. So I'm hoping you do have questions because you should all be feeling challenged right now. Whether you're parents or your grandparents or you're going to have kids, you should really, really be thinking about this. Because it's probably the most significant difference in terms of our children's lives as an intervention, as a health intervention, for physical and mental health that we have. Really quickly, before we get started with questions, we've got about 15 minutes to do questions, give or take. And then when we're done, we are all going to migrate over like giant buffalo back to the ballroom. And we are going to have a few closing words. So I just wanted to let everybody know kind of what the game plan is, so we don't just sit here awkwardly when we're finished. Well, I think I can ask a question at the end, but I had two comments. Just as you were talking, I had a couple of things come to mind. I was thinking of cage-free chickens. Okay, you see cage-free chickens everywhere. And I've heard, I've not tested it out, I don't know if it's true, but I've heard that they can legally label eggs as cage-free, as coming from cage-free chickens if the door was opened. And the phenomenon they were talking about was that, guess what? We open the door and the chickens don't leave. And so I work in a middle school and I have, and I'm in the Seattle area, so it can be cold and it can be wet outside, but we also have some very nice weather, and we also have resilient kids who are used to the damp weather. And I've heard coming out of my mouth as I'm in the cafeteria with the kids, go outside, okay? And I say it firmly, and then I finally, it's almost like an order, like, you're going outside right now. And they, next year they're not gonna have their cell phones with them, that's gonna be disallowed, but they will have their Chromebooks, and they're compelled to be with them. So that's a frustration. Okay, can I address that point? You bet you can. So, I mean, children will mimic adults. So they see adults spending quite a lot of time indoors. They see adults saying, outdoor time is a special time. So we're gonna go on for a hike at the weekend. You know, like, we set up outdoor, you know, nature time, access to nature is something which is a really big deal. For kids that used to be the norm, right? Just get outside, have some free time. So now if you're seducing kids with technology, with Disney, for channels 24-7, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, there doesn't become a period of time where they don't know what to do when you say, hey, kids just go outside. Hey, you know what? Just use your imagination and do something. They're like, we have no idea what to do. Because most, again, most of their instruction comes from adults saying, this is how you need to be playing this game. This is how you need to act when you're outdoors. And the only way to change that is by removing the barrier. And that barrier, unfortunately, are us as adults. We are the ones who are guardians of our children. We create the environment for them. So if we're saying the environment always has to be safe, we can't have any risk. I need to always see what you're doing and then say all of a sudden, you know, hey, go out and play and do something for yourselves. What cues have they got to reference? Who do they speak to? Can they speak to older kids? Maybe not, because usually, sometimes recesses are based on aged, are kind of segregated by age. Only year four can play with year four kids. So they don't even have that kind of knowledge transfer from older kids to younger kids. So that probably, I would say, addresses that first point. Okay, and then another thing I haven't thought about in many, many, many years, and I thought of it as I sat there today, but back when my kids were, I have three sons and I wanna have two of them at the time. Their dad was in college in Cheney, Washington. And we lived in a little house and down the street lived one of the professors. And they had children the same age as of ours and they were pretty well to do by comparison. We were students and, you know, we didn't have a lot. And they had a whole playroom filled with things made by a company called Creative Play Things. I don't know if they still make things, but they're beautiful, beautiful, expensive little toys. There's no way I could do that. Well, we shopped at a store, at a grocery store called Prairie Market, and you go in with a flatbed and a crayon marker and some boxes and you fill up your boxes and you write the price on the cans or the boxes or whatever. And then we went out, just anecdotally, one time my son held the crayon down on the floor as I was going all the way. So he drew a crayon mark all the way around the store. Anyway, I just remembered that. I'm having a fun moment reminiscing. But we collected these boxes. And I always thought we'd take them back, but the kid's one of the boxes. We literally had a mountain of boxes. And one day this very nice mom with all the Creative Play Things in her house said to me, you know, you're making me look really bad. And I asked why. And she said, well, we're asking Billy, that was his name, what he'd like for Christmas and he won't tell us anything except he wants a mountain of boxes like Mike has. Well, yeah, I mean, you know, I bought an educational tech device for my niece at eight years old. You know, like a computer come kind of like all around educational device. And she did spend more time playing with the box than with the piece of tech. And so, and I believe that's far more beneficial for her. Creativity, imagination, ability to create her own worlds, to, you know, she can be whoever she wants to be. The technology will still conform you in whatever way the algorithms are designed to enable you to do whatever you need to do in that space. With a cardboard box, it could be anything to a child, you know. Oh, and with 50, even more opportunities. Thank you. That was a fantastic talk, just so inspirational. And you brought me back to the 1960s when I was a free range kid, just like you. After school, my mom didn't know where the heck we were. And if we showed up by dinner, that was good enough. We were out climbing trees, digging underground forts. Yeah, oh. And one thing you mentioned, the games. You know, we made up our own rules. Yes. And we had to negotiate and argue with each other. And it was not some, you know, adults' version of it. It was our own stickball. It always changed. Yes. And people cheated, because they kept changing the rules. So you learned a lot about negotiation. You learned a lot about just how to deal with kids. As you said, of different age groups. And that's huge. I hadn't thought about that. That's missing. Yes, it is. That sort of negotiation process. Yes. So I guess one other thought that you made me remember was this incident, and I think it may have happened more than once, where these free-range parents are cited by police and social services for lending their kids. I mean, they've told the kids, this is fine. You can walk to school. Yes. And this is apparently unacceptable. They're picked up. They're brought home. And the parents are sanctioned. And municipalities passing ordinance. And this is craziness. Yes. We can't tolerate that small amount of risk. I mean, what's your thought on that, how to push back against these kind of anti-free range kids? Well, it's remarkable sometimes that we feel that we have no, especially, again, I don't want to sound holier than thou being from Europe. But sometimes we feel as if we're powerless. We can't do anything about the situation. Big government, big farmer, big, big, big, big, big schooling, big education. And actually really all it takes are probably the parental governors of a particular school to say, we believe this is a safe zone. If our kid lives a mile away and they don't want to take the school bus, and there's a few kids and a few families who agree that that's OK, why don't we let those kids walk to school? So rather than being siloed and going, oh, I can't do this. Because if I do this, then my children will, child care services are going to be contacted and I'm going to be sanctioned. I actually just talk to other parents who feel a similar way to yourselves about this. And I think in the state of Utah, for example, they have passed a free range law now. Because people pushed it up to the legislature and said, hey, we do not want to have social services contacted because my 11-year-old child is walking to school. So now they have a free range law in Utah where kids are allowed to walk to school. I think it's something from, I think, seven years old and above. And so more of that should be happening. We are the guardians. We are the ones who vote in particular politicians. We can let them know that we find this problematic. I walked to school on day two at 4 and 1 half years old. It was my first day at school. My mother took me on day one. Second day I walked on my own. It was about a mile when I was 4 and 1 half years old. When I was at high school, I walked about 2 and 1 half miles to school and back every day. One of the reasons I did so is because I wanted to save the bus fare because I could buy more sweets. I'll be honest. That's exactly why. But that was the norm. And I had people who were working far, far, far, working, walking much further distances to get to school. So I just think we've gone too far in the other direction. Of course, we wanted kids to be safe. Of course, there are things that weren't acceptable back then. Not wearing seatbelts, for example. I'm happy that I can go to a restaurant and not have people aren't smoking. There were certain things where we've made significant process, especially in relation to children. But we've just gone so far in the other direction. And so play for us as adults becomes usually destructive. Let's stay out all night drinking. Let's take drugs. Let's go out and play. That's what play becomes for us as adults because that's what we believe is playful. And our kids have never had any opportunity to have real unstructured play. So imagine how it affects them as adults. Right on, thanks. We've got a couple more folks at the mic. We've got like two and a half minutes. So please, censor questions down to like, just skip vowels and unimportant words, and we'll be all right. OK, so you know what? We're going to be really playful and we're going to buck the trend. So if it takes three minutes or four minutes and you're happy to stay here because you're volunteering to stay here. Darryl, if I never get invited back again, I'm blaming you just so you know. All right. So I would ask your advice for an only child. OK. So we have one who, when she's having a play date, which I hate that term, super playful and active and social. But any advice for like stimulating that when she's home and she's the only kid? She's eight. She's eight years old? Not that she's like not playing, but is there like any advice for making a more playful environment? Don't let her use a tablet. Don't let her use a smartphone. Sure you can't. OK, fine. Probably don't let her watch too much television of any type. I mean, you know, you may need to. I think there is room for adults to actually guide their children. And so what I would do, my kids have grown up now, so it's easy for me to talk. But with my nephews and nieces who are quite young, I kind of guide them and steer them with very light touch and let them dictate what should happen next. And that's probably the best way to foster that spirit. To actually say to them, you are in control. You're going to decide what you want to do. I shouldn't really be here after a point. Yeah, I didn't know if it's appropriate to play with them. Or like, I don't want to, because you said it's important for them to not have adults around, which is great. But, you know, she's the only kid. Yeah, so I mean, for some children, you're going to be weaning them onto unstructured play, right? So some children are not going to be able to adapt to, hey, just go and do whatever you want. They have no idea. So you may just need to help them along for the first few play times or play opportunities where you're going, hey, what about doing this? This is what I used to do when I was young. Here's a game that I played when I was young. That we used to sing. Here's a cupping game that we played. You know, it's a chance to pass on some of your kind of play heritage, right? When you think about it, think about all those games you played as a kid that have been lost, because they're not being passed down, because kids aren't learning them anymore, because there's other stuff that they can do. So I would use the opportunity to say, hey, you know what? When I was a kid, we did this. Do you want to play that with me? Yes. And then after a while, she'd say, mom, I don't need to be playing with this me. Don't play with me anymore. I'd rather play with somebody. You know what I mean? You're kind of cramping my style now, mom, my play style. So that's what I would suggest. Thank you. You're welcome. So I've seen you do your workout programs, your primal play with adults. You do workshops with kids as well, yes? Yes. So I guess this is more of a question based on your work specifically. Are you trying to make this change to reduce anxiety that I really like to that point, how anxiety is rough on kids these days, because they're not as active? Do you find yourself trying to teach more adults how to spread that and help enable their kids to play better? Or are you trying to kind of come into schools and get kids playing, because it is difficult with all the technology today? So how do you see that spreading and becoming an actual change? I've been invited to attend a few schools and do workshops. And one of the things that I do is I stress to the head teacher or principal, the principal, to the parents, to the teachers, I will say, hey, if we're going to do a play day, I'm going to pretty much dictate what happens. So we're going to normalize play for the day. And so most of the rules as to around what's possible, what's permitted, they don't exist anymore. What's really incredible, as soon as you say to most of the parents, when the parents are bringing their kids to school and you go, hey, hey, do you want to join in? We're going to play some games. We're going to play some tag. And they're like, really, I'm too old for that. And they start playing. And their kids carry on playing throughout the day. And they go back home. They communicate to their parents. And they say, hey, we were playing these games today. We want to continue playing those games with you. We were playing with Miss Polly, our teacher, playing this game. Can we play it with you? So I think there's a way to hopefully stimulate discussion as to what's an acceptable norm, play norm for particular school environments. And fortunately, there is so much research now available comparing the overly tested, prescriptive approach education in the US of the last 20 or 30 years, where standards haven't improved. And societies where they used to be stricter and have kind of gone back to the old ways of saying, yeah, 50% of your day is going to be free play, for example. And we're going to have 15 minutes of play during your academic session. And standards academically go up, less child absence, less problems with mental health, less autism and spectrum disorders. I mean, the benefits are huge. So we can satisfy the intellect. We can satisfy parental safety as long as there's community action in relation to that. And so it is just me. My TED Talk kind of discusses that, I suppose. But yeah, if anyone's interested in trying to do more in relation to that, just get in touch. Community effort. And community effort, yeah, for sure. OK, probably the last question. I have a quick comment towards what Todd brought up about the possible legal issues or the CBS issues, which is you can easily turn that around and say, well, if it's dangerous for kids to walk to school or to their friend's house, then maybe we have a community policing problem, not a parent problem. And at that point, maybe we need to speak to law enforcement and say, is this actually a problem? Is there actually a danger here? Because the police will have those statistics. They'll know what's going on. And odds are, there won't be. Odds are it's an overblown fear. And then you can get good data on that because you're talking to the police. If there is a problem, then the neighborhood can come together and address that. But it seems like that might be a fruitful approach towards dealing with that particular problem. Yeah, so there is actually some interesting research on perceived danger, perceived incidents, comparing one generation to the next, going back many years, going back to 20s and 30s. And a lot of it is based on perception, the rates of kidnapping of children, say to child abductions or whatever. And pretty much the numbers are the same. The one key difference is the fact that there's far more publicity about it. We're far more aware of this issue. And there's also far less education that is targeted to children. For example, when I was watching child-based programming as a young kid, we had public service announcements about how you should cross the road, how you should handle talking to strangers, why you shouldn't walk onto the rail tracks because you're probably going to die. They weren't afraid to say, look, these are the dangers of the world. And this is what you can do to protect yourself as kids. Because the assumption was that you would be kids having to deal with this. Don't let a stranger give you a ride in their car. Yes, exactly. So we were quite, I don't want to say streetwise, but we were quite knowledgeable about the world around us without knowing the details. We weren't having nightmares because we didn't know, we didn't recognize the adult world. But we knew there were things that we shouldn't be doing and things that we should be concerned about. And in general, it was a relatively safe place to be. I just think there's far more harm now. I think it's more harmful to completely closet our kids and blanket our kids around. I just need to be able to see whatever you're doing. Because as soon as they do have to fend for themselves, they have problems. If you've never had to have a disagreement with someone where you're on the receiving end of not being happy about decision, if that's never happened to you in your life and then the first time you have an argument with someone and it's a negative outcome, the world, oh my gosh, that's it, the world's going to end. And unfortunately for many children, that's what happens. I mean, this is reality. Suicides, forget about the risks of kidnaps and the like, child abduction. What about the risks of increased suicides and depression and self-harm and all of these things that are happening and our children don't know what to do about it? And as adults, we have no idea what to do about it. But if we are conducting research which is suggesting there is a link which appears to be causal, and there's been government studies from the 60s looking at, say, mass murders, murderers from the 60s up until the present day. And one of the most significant and compelling arguments for reasons for those individuals to do what they do is a significant amount of play deprivation, where their parents will say, no, you're not playing. You're going to be isolated. We're going to take your toys away from you. We're being kicked out and or pulled over. So thank you for the interesting questions and thank you so much for listening. Thank you. Thank you.