 Hello and welcome to My Career in Data, a podcast where we would discuss with industry leaders and experts how they have built their careers. I'm your host Shannon Kemp and today we're talking to Toby Hall and Curtis Mischler from Roosevelt Innovations. More and more companies are considering investing in data literacy education, but still have questions about its value, purpose, and how to get the ball rolling. Introducing the newest monthly webinar series from DataVercity, Elevating Enterprise Data Literacy, where we discuss the landscape of data literacy and answer your burning questions. Learn more about this new series and register for free at DataVercity.net. Hello and welcome. My name is Shannon Kemp and I'm the Chief Digital Officer at DataVercity and this is My Career in Data, a DataVercity Talks podcast dedicated to learning from those who have careers in data management to understand how they got there and to be talking with people who help make those careers a little bit easier. To keep up to date in the latest in data management education, go to DataVercity.net forward slash subscribe. Today we are joined by Toby Hall, President and CEO and Curtis Mischler VP Chief Data Officer and Chief of Staff at Roosevelt Innovations. And normally this is where a podcast host would read a short bio of the guest but in this podcast, your bio is what we're here to talk about. Toby and Curtis, hello and welcome. Thanks Shannon. Thanks for having me here. I'm so excited to have you guys here. Thank you so much for doing this. I met you to initially when you did the 2022 keynote for Enterprise Data Governance Online Conference. And then again in person at our most recent data governance and information quality conference in San Diego. Recently you gave the keynote there in person and that was fabulous. I have to tell you I told you in writing and I don't say this to everybody. You guys, it's one of my favorite talks. You guys had a laughing right from the beginning. You guys really gel so well together is really consumable content that you present it's really just you guys give a great presentation. Data Governance is a hilarious topic so I'm not surprised. I laugh every day. Well, how long to have you two been working together. Well, Curtis. Yeah, about that. Yeah. Nice. Have you always dealt like that or did it take work. Well, I think that actually is a really good question. I know not right out of the gate but I think a lot of that comes from dealing with and solving issues together over time. I don't want to say it's quite the foxhole mentality but there's a little bit of that. Yeah, there's definitely some of that. Yeah, you go through some of the things we've gone through and you just kind of bond through the experience and we have similar sense of the humor which which helps to help. And I love that you use again you've used humor in your presentations is just so great. So, so let's start at the foundation here so tell me about Roosevelt innovations what's the company about what is it that the company does. Yeah, that one. We are a wholly owned subsidiary spin off from Delta dental plan Michigan. The mother ship Delta dental has always run the business of dental insurance business with a homegrown platform from an IT perspective they wrote the whole thing themselves back in 2008 we went live initially. And that includes claims eligibility billing the whole stack for what an insurance company would mean. And that platform attribute a bit over time they we accumulated a little bit of tech debt wasn't as robust as it should be some IT resources have been diverted to do other things for a number of years. And in about 2016, our board of directors decided it was time to either buy a new platform or rebuild from scratch. And we decided to go into and and rehab our existing platform, build some new modules from scratch, maybe even buy an ingress and a few pieces. The goal was over a multi year period, we would come out the other end with a brand new platform. Great ambitious endeavor. Our CEO at the time realized this should not be run solely out of it. Our IT friends are great they work their butts off and we love them dearly, but probably a little ambitious and too big and sweeping for to be confined to it. She asked if anyone would be willing to delete a project and I dare to make eye contact with the beast. During that meeting, I wish I had duct at the time. So I ended up getting tagged to lead that project and did that for a number of years. Apparently it went it went in a favorable direction and our board of directors spun us off as a separate company to market our IT platform to other dental payers. I joke with our CEO our current CEO saying you should be on about your third version of me by now. That's a platform projects of that size, typically the project sponsor exits somewhere along the way. You end up cycling through a few of them. In fact, I'm still here. I don't know, maybe he just wasn't sleeping this way channel. That's fascinating. Oh, very interesting. So, so to me you also have the title of CEO and president. So what is it you are doing what is your typical work. Yeah, this is going to be the biggest cliche on earth but there is no there is no typical week they're all different. Broad buckets of activities though, depending on where we are in the calendar and what's going on, working with our board managers and the main interface upward to our board. And that could involve keeping them up to date on product roadmaps what's in the sales pipeline, getting large decisions approved. So there's those board activities and Curtis is super helpful in that as well. And it could be our go to market strategy, working with our product roadmaps dealing with vendors, or what I would argue is actually my favorite part of the whole thing is building the team and making sure we have a culture that I product. That's awesome. I love that. And Curtis, you hold several VP chief data officer, chief of staff, many hats. So what is it what is it you do. What does your week look like. I'll just I will tell you the garbage bags are always empty. It's fantastic. I really try to do my best there to you know two or three times a day. I would say play a lot of whack-a-mole. For better for worse. Yeah, there's two big hats there the chief of staff on a lot of strategy, keeping the trains running on time so I like to put it addressing the big problems nobody else wants to touch Toby's got a great way of saying hey Curtis, what are you doing right now I got something for you. Put out fires just whatever support Toby needs kind of stuff in that role from a chief data officer perspective. There's several big data projects that are going on. We have a big archiving and purging initiative has been a way underway for years. So I'm very active in that is the cat jumps out. I know my cat just wanted to make a guest with you inside the podcast she'll be back for sure. We're working on data catalog selection reporting strategy different things like that, helping make sure we're using data appropriately across the organization was like Toby said, every week's different. There's there's no one typical. Sure makes sense. So, okay, so let's back it way up. So when you were both very young elementary school, just do it, just a young kid. What was the dream. When did you say, you know, I'm going to go work and have these many hats and this diverse work week at, you know, at Roosevelt innovations when I grow up. Definitely no. And maybe later than elementary school I'll say late middle through high school and college. I always knew I wanted to do something related to the math or physics very much a quantitative science stem kind of a mindset so that that was always the passion didn't know exactly what that would be. But I wanted to do something in the area of math and or physics. I had a dream job growing up. There was only one. There was nothing else on the list. It wasn't this. The astronaut, actually. Minor problem though, 64 is the cut off. And you can tell I'm sure for those that are listening that I'm six foot seven. You sound virtually. I sound tall. I did major aerospace engineering. I worked as a co op at Johnson Space Center for a year. Got to go on the astronaut training plane called the vomit comment spend some time mission control but in the end the last. No, that did not work out. Well, then tell me so then so from astronaut. So Curtis will start with you so where you go from there. You're basically saying I've fallen the farthest. No. Because you're six foot seven you have further to fall. I'm the first one to know it's raining. Yeah, so coming out of college, I didn't know what I wanted to do like I kind of knew the aerospace path, not ending where I ultimately wanted to be wasn't going to be satisfying for me. And I didn't really know what to do so I went to management consulting. They're going to get to see a lot of different things and try a lot of different things. I just fell in the healthcare by accident doing that fell in the healthcare data by accident within that. And along the way just started taking different roles because I thought they looked interesting or unique or different and just bounced around a lot. And somewhere along the way looking back on it I realized that the astronaut part that really interested me was the exploration pushing the boundaries going new places. And then that's actually what I was doing a lot of my career progression. And I found out that I bumped into the Delta dental Michigan organization and Toby and was able to help them as a contractor with some of their needs. And I liked it so much I decided that I just wanted to stay there. So that that's really kind of how I got to where I am right now, a little bit of a luck at the draw but mainly just kind of fall my interest along the way. I like that. And it's following your passion right that has taken so many people so many different places right. Yes. So, so Toby, tell me so stem you're following a STEM career in college and where do you go from there. Yeah, so I double majored in math and statistics, or as one of my friends says I double majored in dork, which is probably not terribly inaccurate. Yeah, I have done I wonder you know what do you do with a bachelor's degree in statistics and and the unfortunate answer is not much with a master's or a doctorate there's comes about opportunities, but but really not with that not as much as you might think with a bachelor's degree, not directly. So talking with an advisor, he sort of indicated if you're anything less than 100% committed to the doctorate route graduate school, you might want to think twice about as well taking your off and get your head straight. That's basically what I did. I stuck around did some research with a professor at the undergraduate institution I went to put some classes while I was there and thought well this teaching thing isn't so bad. So, post baccalaureate actually went back and got a secondary teaching endorsement, and I was high school teacher. I was taught high school for I was certified high school math and history taught math, everything from these are numbers they're your friends they won't hurt you, all the way up through calculus. I kind of everything in between pot it kind of a high school all day and taught at Community College at night. I was 23, not very bright. I thought everybody showed up for work at like seven in the morning and worked out tonight I thought that's what everybody did. I went to high school, high school all day that I go teach at the college all night, you know, roll into my apartment at 1030 and started all over again the next day I thought that's what adults did. And somewhere along the way, I wanted to do something in the summer that would, I could come back to the classroom and tell students this is why you need to learn that. And look into the actuarial profession was going to do an actual internship, fell in love with the actual profession and went whole hog. And I was doing four consulting firms as an actual consultant for a number of years. That's when I jumped over to Delta dental about 20 years ago, and worked my way out to the chief actuary at Delta dental. And for about five years there I was doing the chief actuary job and leading this project that eventually became Roosevelt and there were definitely some dark days but not recommend doing two full time jobs at once. Not a great choice of mind but but it was awesome I have never worked that hard but had that much fun and learn that much in my whole life. Oh, I love it. I love it. Yeah. I think Toby and I may have worked for the same big for at the same time just in different parts of it and never ran into each other. Yeah, we were in the same, the same geographic practice area the two different practice lines. And I do believe we've never never knew each other at that time. I mean, lots of stories like that across my career as well, people when I work for Microsoft people ask me all the time. Hey, do you know so and so when I saw my work for Microsoft. You know they employed 30,000 just right in this city right. Do you know Bill Gates. No but I was on an email with him once. So tell me. So what has been your biggest lessons so far in your career that you know I mean Toby you're talking about working a lot of hours. A lot of it mostly for two different jobs. What's what's the biggest takeaways that you that you use today even. So I would tell you the only way that was possible to pull that off is to have people behind you that you trust have a bench of people know Curtis included on this side of the house. I had some talented actuaries that worked under me on the other side of the house, being able to delegate and focus on what's really important. The few one or two strategic things that was critical. So probably the biggest lesson I'm going to tell you career wise is, and again it's I'm going to be the cliche factory today. It's never stopped learning. And, and I mean that generically learning doesn't have to mean learning a new skill or technology or staying what's on top, what trends are going on in your industry. Those are all important, but learning can also just be doing new things, but nothing beats doing. You're trying to learn. I've learned a number of times I've, I've agreed to a project or been assigned a project with absolutely no idea how I was going to pull it off. But those have been some of those pivotal educational moments, not saying I succeeded every time, but definitely learned every single time. Yeah, and I've heard other leaders say this that that learning, no matter how you're doing learning is like the equivalent of compound interest. It's a little bit of learning today just like it's not about the dollar you invest today. It's about on top of all of the other dollars over time, what that does and learning is the same thing. An incremental little piece of learning done consistently over time, you'll pick your head up in five years and shackle. I love that advice. And I think it's so important to hear that from executives. You know, I think so many, you know, especially I will see it speaking, you know, from my own youth, you know, you think that you get to the top and that's it, you know, you've succeeded and there you go and you're just rolling from their own outright, but it's not it's a lot of work. You keep learning right. Yeah. Yeah. So Curtis, what about you? What are you some of the biggest lessons so far in your career? So a couple, one somewhere along the way I realized that the people you work with is probably more important than the work itself. And if you don't really like the people you're around. Life's too short. Why are you doing it. And I think that really is a two way street though because you have to demonstrate that as well. Right. Like, do you want to be that person that's grumpy all the time no one wants to come ask for help or do you want to be that person that's willing to step in and do whatever needs to get done and do with a smile. You're going to go a lot further. You know, with that kind of approach. So that's been big for me and actually that's why I'm at Roosevelt, quite honestly it's because of people's because of Toby and others that we work with that. You know, I just decided this is the group I want to end my career with. So, yeah, I'm thrilled to be here. So that's one. We have a meeting with a child later. Oh, very good. Wait till I get to my third lesson. The second one is, you got to take chances at times. You know, like even took, you know, Toby's example about taking on the Roosevelt project wasn't called that at the time but that was a chance. And sometimes you got to do that and I've taken some chances in my career that paid off and taken some that haven't. I've changed the result, but I've realized that nothing's really fatal. You know, you learn from it, you grow from it. But if you're just going to go in and keep your head down all the time, you're not going to progress anymore. You're not going to make the business better. You're not going to advance your career. And then the third one is, yeah, just be really careful about working with people with dog names. I'm just saying. Everybody knows a dog named Toby. With a robust catalog of courses offered on demand and industry leading live online sessions throughout the year, the Dataversity Training Center is your launchpad for career success. Browse the complete catalog at training.dataversity.net and use code DBTOX for 20% off your purchase. Well, you can tell me, let me cover something really quick, but you both mentioned how important culture is, people you work with. I mean, Toby, you mentioned from the beginning, you know, how important it was to build the right staff and the right culture. What is that? And what have you done to build that? And what does that mean to you? And I would tell you, I think some people overthink this, they make it too hard. And I know my team right now, my director reports, they're all plugging their ears going, he's going to say it, I know he's going to say it again because I say it all time. I think there's really four steps and it's all about the same four steps over and over again. And I don't mean to trivialize it because they're not as, but the step one is put the right people in the right roles. And that is a point in time kind of thing. The minute the pieces are on the chessboard, the other side moves, the game changes, you got to move some people around. I moved some people around just this morning. I know how it goes, but if you get the right people in the right roles, like the battle is mostly one, that's step one. Step two, make sure they have the right vision of what you're trying to accomplish and be really, really clear on what that vision is and make sure it's a compelling vision. It's not anything trivial, it's ambitious, but not demoralizing. Step number three, make sure you give them the right culture. And then if you've done that, if you've got the right people in the right role, they have the right vision, they have the right culture. Step four, stay out of their way. Let them do their job, delegate, push the decisions down. And if you're unwilling to do that, either one, your ego is the problem, which could easily be, it could be an ego thing, or you didn't do steps one through three curl. If you did them the correct way, you should be more than happy to just get out of the way and let them do their thing. They will bring you in when they need you, there's no doubt about it. But that culture piece, I think sometimes that's underestimated, and people make it into a big production, they have a big culture statement, and those things aren't bad, don't get me wrong, that's a necessary step, but that's not enough. That's not merely, you know, on the math world, we would say that's necessary, but it's not sufficient. The true culture creation is the micro level interactions you have with your team over a long period of time. It's not about putting a mural up in the lobby. It's about how you reach your team out of Monday morning consistently week after week after week that that creates culture. How you how you reward innovation, how you, you don't punish people who try to innovate and things don't work out like that's that's an okay thing that happens. There is carelessness that has to be dealt with in a different way, but it's all of those things realizing that not in a strange creepy way but in a very real way, your team is watching you and how you act makes a big difference. Early days I'm not as conscious now about it but early days I was even super careful about where I parked my car in the parking lot. Do I want to park in a reserve spot right up next to the door, or do I park out in the middle of the lot? And I'll tell you the answer is I parked out in the middle of the lot. I'd like to add just a little bit to that too, because a huge part of the Roosevelt journey and the spin off has been around culture. And I do think open communication is a huge piece of that. And I have to say Toby is probably the most open transparent executive I've ever worked with. So when it comes to communicating the team helping them understand where we're going why we're doing what we're doing. The headwinds we might be facing. He puts it all out there and I think that builds a certain level of trust that really does then help reinforce that culture that we're trying to create. That's really nice. I like that a lot. So, so important and I assume that trickle down effect resonates the now to your customers. I'm sorry. I know you're going to trickle down economics. I know. I regret it as soon as I said it but. And I'm a firm believer, especially and I have direct interactions with our customers to and I'm equally transparent with them. I'm a firm believer that you know if there's something going on if if a new software release is getting pushed back a couple of weeks me. I'll communicate that directly to the customers and is it a message they like hearing sometimes no. Now sometimes it works better with their lineup and they're actually glad. But sometimes they've been waiting for that new release and we have to push it that they're not thrilled with that, but at least they've heard the message and at least we've had a chance to talk about. And if you just let it go out in an email or let it just the day comes and goes without the release that's not going to be very nice. You know, let's bring it back then a little bit to data, right. The car won't. But you know a lot of the culture of course is so important to data and data management and you know from your presentation, your data governance program reflects a lot of that can you tell me a little bit about your program. Yeah, so we started the data governance program in 2016, which was right around that time that the platform re platforming initiative was kicking off. And there are a few drivers at that time one was, we knew we had a lot of data we probably didn't need to be still holding on to. So just from a retention perspective archiving for gene cetera there that was a big piece of it. And otherwise we knew we had new business coming on to the platform. And based on its size, we were going to be straining a little bit under the weight of all that extra data to want to make sure that we were looking at that the right way and understanding how we were going to handle that. But then also just the fact that hey we're going through and looking at this thing and recoding doing all this kind of work. Now be a great time if we've got some issues to try to clean them up from day one. And then some good practices from day one realizing, you know, we use the analogy we're building the plane while flying it and it feels like that pretty much every day. But we had all these different business needs that were in play. And it was complicated by the fact that at that point in time it own data, not the business. And I think that was more of a historical thing that it took it because nobody else wanted it was like a hot potato. And part of what we wanted to do culturally to is just shift that mindset as well as say hey you know data is really there for business reason. The business needs to own it. It certainly supports it has a huge responsibility around it, but at the end of the day, it's the business users who need to be using it. So I think those were some of the main reasons. No anything on that. No, I think you nailed it. That's exactly right. So, then, so tell me then putting data at the forefront of your culture, you know what is your definition definition of data, and how is it each of you work with data. Yeah, I would say data is pretty much any information that the company or organization needs to create or use during its day to day operations, and very careful to say information, because data is taken on this much broader characterization. It's not purely numeric things anymore data, for example in our world data could be the click patterns that are users use on one of our web portals, understanding what their click patterns are so that our product designers can make sure that the portals are very easy to use very intuitive. That's data click patterns that's data, an x-ray that comes in with a dental client that's data. It's on structured data, you may have to find a way to manage it and live with it. So I would say it's all of those things. And in the spirit of the cliches of the day, I think about the organization as being a giant gasoline engine, and data is the one that makes that engine run properly. Now, could you, could you drive your car with it being a court low on oil? Sure, of course you could. It just would be a very, very bad idea and it wouldn't work for very long. Same thing with the data in an organization. There's no fuel for decision anything in the modern economy is that it always comes back to what what data can we get to help us make that decision. And if the data is not trustworthy it's not available. It's not understood clearly. We're going to be making some balance. So is that part of your, what you're constantly learning, Coby? Yeah, exactly. So Curtis, what about, what about you? What's your definition of data, as such as the chief data officer, you know, and how do you use it? I echo a lot of what Toby said. Yeah, I see data is basically all the inputs, you know, we're constantly barrage every single day, you know, us as human beings, our systems, our organization, all these inputs it's all data. The challenge is trying to sift through that and say, well, what really matters and what doesn't? What's just noise? And what is, hey, there's a signal there trying to tell us something back to Toby's point, making it information. And information could be because, oh, this piece of data actually has relevant meaning to us, so it qualifies as information. Some cases it may be, oh, if we take this piece of data and do something with it, then it becomes information. But getting down to that to me is the real key to it. You know, one of the things that we've been working on is, you know, making data available to our customers. And on one hand I could say, here it is, a big pile of data, and they were looking at it, yeah, but I don't know what this means. Like, what does that column, what does this one do? Like, how do they interact? Without that additional data on top of it, you can't get the information. It's meaningless. So I think that's a big part of what we're doing is just trying to wade through all of this. All the stuff needs to be called, get rid of the smoky layers to the point where actually that has meaning what we're looking at. And I think the challenges that come with that have been taken on a very different look and feel. When I did undergrad and then the actual real exams, a lot of the techniques and methods and thought processes that got ingrained in me were around data is difficult to get, it's expensive to store, you never have enough of it, how do you branch as much insight out of the data that you have, don't ever waste a bite of data. And that's the whole mindset of traditional statistics and I argue actually about science. Now, I look at the young men and women being trained today, their problem is 180 degrees the opposite. It's you land in the chair, you've got thousands of pounds and millions of rows and you don't even know how to make sense of it. You're a wash it data and you don't even know where to begin. How do you begin to find patterns when you can't even get your arms around how massive the quantities are. You're a relatively short time span we've made that week, and trying to make sure we're putting the right data in the decision makers hands, while that characteristic is going on background that that's a unique channel. Indeed, so so let's talk about people coming into the workforce. So to both of you know, do you see the importance of data management and the number of jobs working with data increasing or decreasing over the next 10 years, and why. Definitely, definitely increasing. And there's probably an offensive and a defensive side to this. I would say when you're when an organization is playing defense thinking about data management. It's because there's such a sensitivity and awareness for good reason around proper data hygiene data access data controls. You know at the extreme this is regulation like HIPAA and other things to consumer protection laws that that governor use and storage of data. So that sort of visit is the defensive play, or no one wants to have that Wall Street Journal story about a day. Nobody wants to be that organization. So that's definitely there and that's going only in one direction and that's inclusive. And also be offensive side to data as the data becomes more voluminous and comes at us faster and faster. And we want to make better quality decisions. This whole notion of understanding data. Where did it come from what does it mean, as Curtis eloquently said going from data to information to insight to action, being able to follow that arc. And I would argue it's a little bit different data management is a little bit different than input management of any other type. If you are managing factory raw materials, you don't necessarily have to understand all that much about how those raw materials, but if you're managing data within an organization you have to understand how that data came to be. Who's consuming the data what are they using it for if you're going to effectively managing you have to understand that suit to nuts. If you're managing parts in a manufacturing point equally important job but you don't necessarily need to know about the. And how do you, how important do you think that is for a CEO to understand. I think the CEO needs to be conversant and needs to know which questions to ask and push on things and make sure the direction the team is moving with data management is in alignment with the CEO vision for sure. Hello, then you call Curtis and say, Hey, are you busy? Sorry, you broke up there. I didn't catch that. And I love that description. It's the first time I've heard offensive and defensive and it makes so much sense. Yeah, I like that description of that. So a lot of people look at Toby and think offensive but that's most people. So Curtis, do you see the number of jobs were increasing increasing degree with degree with Toby or. I do. I mean after this call might be decreasing by one, but overall I do think it is, it is increasing. I don't have these exact numbers, you know how many petabytes of data we as a world a society are generating every day but that's exponentially growing and no end in sight like I don't know why that would change anytime soon. I do think it's just more and more and more and more businesses are going to compete. They're going to exist based on data. And it's going to come down to who can do the most beneficial things with it. I think it's beneficial for those organizations but also beneficial for the consumers. I think more and more people are starting to realize that a lot of that data that's out there describes me, or actually should belong to me. So now we start getting into ethics and morals and what should we or should not we be doing with different things. And that's a big part of what we do because in the healthcare space that's very sensitive data. We have PHI we have PI I know a lot of what we talk about is what's the appropriate use. What does it make sense that we could say yes we can do it. You know, Toby mentioned the breach article we also don't want to be on that front page article because we did something with someone's data that we shouldn't have been doing with it. So it's important to us that we get clear on that. But back to the original question I do think that it's not just companies that business is based on data itself, you know like social media companies others. I think all aspects of every business, they're just so much more data that's become available. It's deciding how to make the best use of it so it actually helps you in the marketplace. I like it. And so then what advice would you give the people who are looking to get into a career and data management either on the offense or the defensive side. And either one occurred with that one the same. I would say just roll up your sleeves and jump right into it, you know, we kind of touched on this but really understanding where the data comes from where it's been where it's going how it's manipulated what's it used for how can be misinterpreted. All those different things just go down that rabbit hole, because the more you specialize the more you learn I think the more valuable you're going to be. Early in my career I really struggled with, you know, inch wide mile deep or mile wide inch deep. And I, for the most part been a generalist because I like to do so many different things. But the points of my career where it actually kind of made a big leap is when I'm really specialized where I really went in and got to know something really really well. And I think the insights you gain from doing that help your career that help your organization and back to one of my earlier points. Be one of those people that shares that information be that resource that people want to go to and ask for help because I know that you're going to provide that guidance. Don't be the grumpy old me in the corner that nobody wants to talk to who knows everything but everyone hates working with that person, such as not fun for anybody I mean you think about how much time we spend at work every day. You know, just pay it forward be part of that because trust me you're not going to lose your position because you shared too much. And if anything your power and respecting the organization actually is going to go up because you are a trusted resource because people know if they go and ask you a question. You're going to have the answer if you don't, you'll say you don't need to be able to help get into the right place but just be open with it learn what you can learn and share that with the people around you. That's my advice. You know, it's been fun in doing these podcasts and getting in hearing some common themes. Like you mentioned being curious. I'm hearing that a lot from data professionals curious be curious about the data be curious about why the business needs it and what they're using it for. But to share it, that's, that's new. And I, and I love that advice to, you know, it going on to it. What you learn. I think that's really, really important. Toby what advice would you give to people looking to give to get into a career in data management. Yes, I got three things three thoughts. One, the first one would be make sure you balance make an effort to balance the quick wins with the big rocks. And back and that was a theme that our keynote, a couple of weeks back in San Diego was, we knew some of the things we want to do accomplish with data governance we're going to take a long time like spending multiple years and organizations don't sometimes have the attention span for that, or the wherewithal they want to see that pay off a little bit earlier. And that's okay that keeps you honest that doesn't you don't do the big rocks that means you get the ball rolling you start chipping away at them, but you also look for those quick wins where you can demonstrate value along the way. Nothing keeps your, your executive teams attention and engagement quite like declaring wins along the way. So I that's one thing I would say is if you want to, if you want to make a difference and accomplish the big multi year tasks, make sure you're balancing quick wins along the way. Number two would be actively more purpose and don't be afraid to roll up your sleeves and understand the data data, it begs to be understood data just as columns in a, in a table. Not all that interesting not all that useful understanding how those columns got to be how do we land there, what do these things represent what is the process that created that data in the first place. That'll help you really understand what what you're up against and what the operations are all about. And then the third one I would say if you're interested in the career and data management I would say, make sure you're finding an organization that either already has a culture that supports data management, or you think has a reasonable likelihood of evolving into that. Many cultures don't have it right out of the game that that's not indictment. Maybe they just never have the awareness the resources. But an organization that's going to support you as you try to help build that culture. That'll make it so much more rewarding so much more effective. We, I think we've been blessed we've been lucky that our organization views the data governance function as is not merely a necessary bureaucracy that has to be tolerated. It's a partner at the table to help us do things the right way and make the business a better place and finding that culture or place where you can help build that culture that that's where it's all going to happen. This is music to my ears that you because you're right I mean so many organizations have yet to discover that I've had a lot of people approach me asking you know how do we get executives to buy off on this and understand that this is important you know how do I get our executives to understand that data governance is not a dirty word. It's not something that just makes us adhere to the laws. Right. And so, but that's such great at career advice you know finding a culture that will support your passion. And I think it ties back to your previous question about jobs growing or shrinking in this space. And I think if you knowing that the backdrop is those jobs are increasing I think that's a unanimous kind of opinion. I think you can afford to be a little picky about the culture. It's kind of it's a good problem to have, but it's an issue you're going to have to pick that culture that you think is a good fit for you. And back to something Curtis said earlier, a lot of that is the people you work with. Now when you go through that interview, you're interviewing them every bit as much as they're interviewing. Yeah, that's so very true. So very. Anything else you want to add. No, I thank you for having us. It's been a blast. Yeah, same. Well, both to both of you. I mean, I'm so grateful that you took the time to share and more of what you do and why you're doing it and it's really been a great to hearing about your journey along the way and how you are, he got to where you are. So if you become a day diversity insider you can hear the your keynote seat from DTIQ. I highly recommend it. Well, anything. So I will post your information to on the website and just thank you again so much for being involved in today's podcast. And for all the listeners out there, if you'd like to come up to date in the latest podcast and the latest in data management education, you may go to dataversity.net or subscribe until next time. Thank you for listening to Dataversity Talks, a podcast brought to you by Dataversity. Subscribe to our newsletter for podcast updates and information about our free educational webinars at dataversity.net forward slash subscribe. .