 I'm Judy Strayer and I'm Judy Strayer and as chair of the local historic district commission, I'm calling this meeting to order at 306 p.m. on Thursday, April 7, 2022. Based on Governor Baker's executive order suspending certain provisions of the open meeting law, general law. C 30 a subsection 20 and signed Thursday, March 12 2020 this hearing and meeting is being held virtually using the zoom platform. Minute meeting is being recorded and minutes are being taken as usual. I'll make now call roll. Bruce Colton. Yes, I'm here can be heard. I hope. Yes. Jim Lumley. Yes, I'm here. Thank you Peggy Schwartz. Here. Thank you. Greta Wilcox. Here. Thank you. And Karen winter. Here. And I'm Judy Strayer and I am here. In accordance with the provisions of the mass general law chapter 40 C and section 3.49 local historic districts of the Amherst general bylaw. This public hearing has been duly advertised and notice thereof has been posted and mailed to the parties at interest. The local Amherst local historic district commission is holding this public hearing to provide an opportunity for interested citizens to be heard regarding the following following certificate of appropriateness application. And that is the one for 175 sunset app in Amherst. Great. Thanks, Judy. So I'm going to invite the applicants into the room here. The virtual room that is so you have. Let's see. So Bob should be joining us. Did I misspeak? Did I say 175 sunset? I meant to say 75 sunset. Oh, right. Yep. 75 sunset. That's correct. Thank you. Just had me look at my paperwork. And then Bob just to clarify is who else from this project. That's the homeowner might be. Come in. I know he sent us an email. Okay. Yep, Jackson. There he is here. Hi. Hey, hi. Thank you very much. Thank you, Jackson. Thank you. Thank you all. And thanks, Bob. Great. Yeah, go ahead, Judy. I was going to say, but ready to start. Well, the procedure will be that we'll hear testimony from the applicant. And then we'll, if Ben has anything to add, he will. Questions from us as the commission. And then any public comments. Okay. So. I mean, I did a little bit of research on the house. You know, built in 1969. Definitely a colonial with a mid-century modern twist to it. Both interior and exterior. And the homeowners are really trying to, to bring out the, you know, the, the lines and the elegance of the mid-century modern look. At the same time they're looking to, you know, create a space where they can not only sit out front, but have safe access to their house because their current stoop is. Quite treacherous in the wintertime. We actually did some temporary things to it in the fall to make it a little bit more user friendly. I think it's my personal opinion. I'm doing this for many years. I think that Maria child, the architect on this project at a phenomenal job, you know, drawing up the plans and really capturing what it's going to look like from the road. I've done quite a bit of work over on Amity street near Lincoln and sunset over the years. And, you know, I find Lincoln and sunset to be a very eclectic neighborhood as far as house structures. I mean, I think it's just, you know, it's just, you know, it's just, you know, it's just, you know, trying to enhance this one is going to go a long way to contribute. You know, to the aesthetics of the neighborhood. Honestly. I don't know how much more I could say than that. I don't know. You know, like I said, they want to be able to sit out there and get to know their neighbors a little bit better. And, you know, more importantly, have safe access to their home. I'm not seeing the pictures. So the. Bob, do you want to describe at all about the kind of just the design and what we're seeing here in terms of materials? Yeah, right now they just have a single entrance door. They wanted to enhance that a little bit, let a little more natural light into the hallway. So they want to go to a double door unit. And, you know, really wasn't feasible to have a roof that had a peak on it to go off in both directions, not only for, you know, rain and snow, but also where the windows are located upstairs, it would have really kind of been off balance. So the architect came up with this really nice, you know, mid-century modern slope one direction to shed the water. They've been working with a landscape architect to, you know, to enhance, you know, with plantings and some hardscape around it. And just really, you can tell they want to bring the accent, you know, to that front entrance way. Right now the house is a dark blue. It's going to, you know, get painted at some point, a little bit darker, but they want to, you know, keep that natural cedar look around the front door and the window to really kind of accentuate that, that whole location and the aesthetic features that it's going to bring to the home. I don't know if I can say much more than that. I mean, I'm happy to answer any questions. Yeah, I was just going to also show the, I think this is a framing plan. Kind of just show the, this is kind of a plan view looking at the new, I guess this would, this doesn't show the roof necessarily, but just kind of the decking material and the walkway. Correct. The roof is going to be a standing scene black. Yeah. Once again, you know, want to keep it simple. At the same stage as, you know, you know, creating a safe and inviting atmosphere with the porch itself. Great. And then the, am I correct that the garage, a new garage door is being proposed that would match the front door. Correct. It would very much match the front door. Yeah. I think it would match the front door as well as the natural cedar around the front door. It would be a cedar tone. Garage door. Yep. Yes. Great. Unless there's anything else to add from Bob or Jackson, I think we can move into commissioner questions. It's pretty, from my point of view, it's pretty straightforward. Bob did a nice job of, you know, putting a porch in the front door. Right now the, we don't even have, it's functioning as a quote unquote front door, but it's really like a side door. And it's a bit perilous as Bob suggested. So we were, the idea of putting a porch there was to create a real front porch rather than like a side door that we go in. And, and it's just a big cement right now. It's just a cement block, much of which has already felt fallen into the ground. So it's a, it's a hazard. That's why Bob did some, and his people did some work to fortify it. So it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just so dangerous. But so this was both for practical. And aesthetic reasons that we wanted to put in a real front porch that would actually be able to look out over the, you know, over the beautiful, you know, sunset avenue sunset. And, and have a, a welcoming, you know, a curb appeal and curb view. Right now we don't really, we just kind of sneak in. It's like sneaking in the side door and navigating the stairs as they sink. So we, we, for all these reasons, we thought it would, it would make the house look nicer, more appealing, and be more connected to the neighborhood. If we did, if we did a front, a real front porch. Um, Bruce. Um, I think it's quite an interesting solution. I was, Bobby, you're the builder, are you? Is that your role in this? Yes, I am. Good. Um, I, I looked at the, uh, the elevation that Ben, you drew up first and the porch, uh, elevation looked very diagrammatic. And my question was going to be really, is it going to look just like that? And, uh, not from an aesthetic point of view, I think it fits rather nicely. It just seemed, uh, well, that's a diagram, but are you going to be able to build it that way? And then when you showed the details, I see exactly, uh, that you are going to build it that way. And that it's going to have matching, uh, um, ceiling boarding, uh, ceiling boards, uh, that match the, uh, the siding. So, um, and the, and the stone and, and the work and the landscaping, uh, it, it all appears rather elegant. I mean, there's probably a couple of things that if, if I were doing it, I might change, but, uh, I'm not here to, uh, um, venture suggestions on how one would redesign projects only to make judgment or whatever, uh, determinations and recommendations on, uh, on appropriateness. And, uh, it's, uh, I, I, I think it's, um, I think it's quite a nice solution. And I don't really have any questions. Uh, uh, I just make that comment. I was looking carefully to see if I did have questions, but at this point I don't, but, um, others may have and they may stimulate some, some, some, something further from me. I also think it looks really, really nice. I think, um, I agree that the house didn't seem to have a front. You couldn't tell where the front door was as easily. And I liked that having a porch and I liked the, um, how it fits into the mid-century modern design too. I liked the cedar. So I just had one question, which is the term hard scrape. What does that mean? Well, just the yard. Well, just like there's a planter in front on the right hand side. So that's done with more of a hard scape stone, you know, hard scape is a kind of stone retaining walls and, and, uh, you know, paver patios and things like that. So it's, it's, it's landscape. It doesn't grow. Great. Oh, okay. I think it looks really nice. I understand improvement. Well, I don't know how many of you are from the neighborhood, but in the last couple of years, my team's done, um, you know, a project at 244 Amity street and 272 Amity street, which. You know, kind of, uh, made me take pause that Lincoln and sunset had a historical district, but Amity street doesn't. Um, both of those are, are older homes, one's early 1900s. And the other one is mid 18th century. Um, and you know, a lot of people are familiar with that little red cape, which I think is two. 70 to 72 Amity. Um, and, uh, you know, we painstakingly take steps to really kind of have things blend into the existing home. You know, we don't want something to stand out like a sore thumb. And I personally, you know, chair committee for historical home and in South Hadley. So I wouldn't certainly want someone to come and put a saltbox style addition on that either. So, um, but this really, you know, like I said, I think Maria and Jackson and Shelly, uh, painstakingly work to really try to draw out that mid century modern appeal to this house. Cause to me. Um, I think that's a great idea. Even without this looks more like a mid-century modern. It does a colonial. Um, so I think they really did a, an awesome job. I'm coming up with this style and design. Great. Thank you. Um, Karen, did you have something you want to say? I'm going to echo what Greeter said. I think it's really attractive. I live next door. So it'll be wonderful to have. You know, you know, I have this, uh, a lovely, uh, change to your front door. And I congratulate you. And yes, I agree that red cape. It amazes me to see how beautifully, um, every addition has, has, uh, improved that and blended in. So congratulations. Yes. I'm very much in favor of what you're doing. Thank you. Great. Um, is anybody else have comments? Go along with what I'm hearing. So I don't need to reiterate the positive response to it. Myself as well. I think it's a elegant solution. So great. Um, do we, are we ready to deliberate or is there something else? Probably a public comment. I didn't know if there's anybody in attendance who would be interested, but they might. If there's anyone who wishes to make a public comment, um, you can raise your hand now and we will. Uh, invite you in. So I see one person, uh, John Sheldon. Uh, yeah. Can you hear me? Yeah. Well, great. Yeah. I live across the street. So I, uh, I didn't have the benefit of seeing the pictures or anything, but I, I, I support it. If you all support it sounds like it'll be nice. And I create addition to the neighborhood. So. I give my support. Great. Thank you. Thanks, John. If we're. I could do what I customarily do perhaps at this stage. And, and, uh, Judy, if you're okay, I'll, I'll, uh, uh, move to, uh, uh, grant a certificate of appropriateness appropriateness for the projects at 75 sunset. Finding that the proposed work meets the review criteria of sections 8.1 and 8.2 of our local history district bylaw. And that's compatible with the overhaul, uh, appearance of the neighborhood. Um, and, uh, Uh, Without any conditions. That's it. Oh, I guess it's, and based on the submitted documentation. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. So I do guess I just wanted to, um, I guess I, uh, once you're done making a motion, I just had one comment. Well, I'm, I'm done. And if it's second, then I guess we can discuss it. It's not the end of the road, but I just thought I'd put the motion on the table to move us forward. I second. Okay. Um, I just wanted to make one comment for Jackson and Bob being that, um, the, uh, the local historic district, you know, needs to approve of essentially, you know, More or less exactly what ends up being built. So sometimes this happened where folks come to the local historic district and then they, you know, Develop the design a bit further and then apply for the building permit. And maybe there's some, um, something that the building, you know, inspectors recommend that might end up changing the design. So, um, even if it's a slight tweak, um, So I guess I just wanted to double check. I guess that, um, you anticipate this design, you know, not, not changing very much. This is, this is already, um, In the hands of the building department. And they're just waiting. So there's no, there's no desire to change or tweak anything. It's been a long time to come to this point. So yeah, great. We're not backing up. Okay. Good to hear. Okay. Um, so the motion's been made in second in so. Oh, we approve the, um, certificate. Well, yeah. You just need to, um, call it to a vote. So I guess, Judy, that's that would be your role is you get, you make, someone makes a motion. It's seconded. And then there, there can be some discussion after that, but at a certain point you can call it, call it to a vote. Okay. Um, can I call, I'll call it to a vote. Yep. Point of order. Um, I'm sorry. Perhaps to Ben, this one, Judy. Is this where we can just do a show of hands on the screen, or does it have to be a formal voice vote where each of us, uh, is going to be able to, uh, uh, in turn acknowledge, uh, uh, um, for this, it would be a formal voice vote. Okay. So we need to go through each person just as you did when you were introducing us. I think you're correct. Yeah. When we're ready. Are you ready? I think so. Okay. I mean, I think so. Okay. Um, so I'm making. Okay. On the motion presented. Yes. I'm sorry. On the motion presented. For 75 sunset. Oh, I see. Yes. Um, Jim Lumley. I approve. Peggy Schwartz. I approve. Rita Wilcox. Yes, I approve. Karen winter. Yes, I approve. I'm Judy Strayer and I approve as well. Thank you very much. We thank you for your time. Thank you. I appreciate it. I appreciate it. And maybe someday we won't have to do this all for your zoom. Yeah. And thank you. I appreciate the deliberations and thank you all for your, you know, for your thoughtful. Engagement and, and I appreciate the, the decision as well. So thank you for, for everything. Well, hopefully we'll see you walking by our house at some point when we have a way to sit out there. Thank you. Thank you. I'm closed. You need to close this part of the meeting. I'm leaving. Yep. Yeah. Thanks, Bob. And thanks, Jackson. So you guys can feel free to, you can stay and watch the next hearing where you can. But thanks for coming. We're all going back to work. Thank you very much. Exactly. Thank you. Ben, if I may, just to help Judy. Yeah. Moving to the wrong. It occurred to me, maybe what we should have done. At some point it was to have closed the public hearing. All right. Yes. And. And it, this was fairly seamless and, and, and so forth. So I think we all just steamed through it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Shall, shall we deem that. The unanimous vote of. To approve appropriateness is tantamount to closing the meeting, or should we formally do that? Yeah. So I, yeah, sorry. I had talked to Judy about that. And I think. But previously, I think the commission had been in the habit of closing the public hearing and then beginning deliberations with the public hearing. And so I think that led to an issue with the, the townhouse project on fear and sunset where, where the public hearing was formally closed. And then we ended up asking the applicant to come back. So we had to re-advertise the public hearing. So I had told Judy that. I think we should be in the habit of, yeah, closing the public hearing when, when a vote is being. Being made on the certificate of appropriateness. So. Well, that was, that was, that was my fault because my motion should have been to move to close the public hearing and instead I moved. Yeah, that's okay. I'm a villain here, but no, I, I, I repent and I'm sorry about that. Yeah. So I, I, I moved to close the public hearing. Second. Cool. Or it'll be a show. Yeah. I think show of hands is fine for that. Okay. So now we, and now we reopen it for two 14 in history. Yep. Well, it's a new public hearing being called to order. So. Do I call it to order with roll call and everything? Not with a roll call, but just. Okay. That in accordance with. Yep. Okay. So in accordance with the provisions of mass general law, chapter 40 C section 3.49 local historic districts of the Amherst general bylaw, this public hearing has been duly advertised and noticed their best and posted mail to parties at interest. The Amherst local historic district commission is holding this public hearing to provide an opportunity for interested citizens to be heard regarding the following certificate of appropriateness application at two 14 Main Street. And Amherst. Great. Thanks, Judy. And welcome Shanti and I'll invite Jane Wald. Hi, Jane. Welcome. Okay. Hi, good afternoon. Thanks for. Convening today. Some of you may remember me from about a year ago. My name is Shanti Andrew Hagan and I'm a historic preservation consultant working with the Emily Dickinson museum on. Various projects. I was before you about a year ago for the work at the homestead, which is nearly wrapping up. We have a couple more months, but very exciting results to reveal this spring and summer. So we're now before you today for the next project that the museum will be undertaking. This is at the evergreens. I will share my screen. All right. Can you all see my screen? Yes. Thank you. Great. So I have a fairly short PowerPoint to just go through with you to describe. What is happening with the energy conservation and systems project at the evergreens. Just bear with me while I hide all of you so I can read my notes. So I'm sure that you're all familiar with the evergreens. It is a two story balloon frame Italian eight house at 214 Main Street that was constructed in 1856 for Austin Dickinson, brother of the poet Emily Dickinson and his wife, Susan. It is a significant. Proper historic property that has received some significant support from the National Endowment for the humanities, any age. To undertake some important environmental stabilization work. Just as a reminder, it's read listed on the National Register of Historic Places and Historic District as a contributing property also on the state register of historic places. There is a preservation restriction that protects exterior and interior features that is held by the Massachusetts Historical Commission. And it is in your local historic district as a contributing property. And I guess I just went through that. So the project at hand. This project is one of the five principal goals of the museum's five year strategic plan. The chief strategy in achieving this goal is to quote, improve care of the buildings and collections consistent with museum standards. To exercise appropriate stewardship of the museum's. Unique cultural resources. This project will enhance the environmental conditions within this building, which houses the largest collection of objects related to Emily Dickinson. Collections that have actually been stored in this building with little environmental control for decades. Museum staff and consultants that included architects, engineers and conservators, but then assessing the evergreens building envelope and systems in light of the risks to and the needs of this collection. They have refined the strategies for both non mechanical improvements, focusing on thermal vapor and UV back barriers. As well as installing a properly sized and distributed HVAC system. That focuses meets the standards. Focus is on a meets the standards for collection storage. All of the proposed work will be undertaken in accordance with the Secretary of the Interior. Standards and guidelines for the treatment of historic properties. And as I'm sure you're aware, you are but one of a number of approvals that the museum always has to go through. But in this instance, beyond the local approvals. Disability planning. We also have state approvals under the easement and the Massachusetts architectural access board. And under section 106 of the National Historic Preservation Act, because of the grant from the NEH. So we are underway with a good number of approvals and appreciate you being here to help us through this one. At the exterior, the proposed work occurs predominantly in two areas at the west elevation on the left. High numerous shrubs, which is where the proposal. Replaces one AC condenser with two. And on the west, excuse me, on the east elevation on the right. Is, which is a more vis, is more visible area from the public way. And I'll go into some detail of what is happening on that. In that area of the building. So there are a number of elements to the exterior work of this project. At the east elevation, there is the reconstruction of the area wave foundation entrance step and plank door. So it's basically the bulkhead and access into the, to the seller of the building. The proposal is to remove the 20th century bill code. Door. Excavate and remove the deteriorated stone and brick foundation walls. So that's where the, that's where the, that's where the, that's where the concrete and remove the deteriorated stone and brick foundation walls. Install new concrete footing and brick foundation walls along with natural cement, targeting and waterproof membrane membrane over new foundation walls. Install new subsurface footing grain and extend piping to a new head wall structure. And the exterior will be reusing blue stone treads over new brick supports. There will then be a new plank constructed wood doors with a painted finish and period hardware to replace the metal doors. Then of course the area will be back filled with finish grading and grass seeding. The next area is looking east. Up toward the ramp looking east over toward the home stead. And this is a membrane waterproofing and subsurface drainage, subsurface drainage work at the foundation of the main block. You can see in the detail at the bottom that water is routinely making its way into the cellar of the building, which is causing environmental issues within the building. So this is one of the areas that needs good attention. In order to get the internal environment, interior environment stabilized. So this will involve just, you know, temporarily removing, removing the ramp. It will be reinstalled at the end of the work along the north wall of the foundation, which will be exposed. And there'll be stabilization at any time. So there will be some stones missing mortar, deep point, deep pointed, deep pointing at the mortar joints as necessary. They'll be raking the existing stone foundation mortar joints to key in new targeting. And installing a waterproof membrane over the existing foundation wall. Again, this is subsurface. The main block with piping extending out. All of this will be, all of this work will be undertaken in a way that is protecting an already existing subsurface drainage, drainage and utility work in this area. And this just shows you the plan, which I know was submitted as part of our package to just indicate what is generally happening in this area. As I said, the ramp will be taken out. The work will be performed at the foundation and also in a roof area that we'll talk about in a minute. And then the ramp will be reinstalled and refinished. And there'll be backfill grading, obviously, seating and crushed stone at the path. At the roof, you can see in the upper left corner, this is a very shallowly pitched roof. This is, I'm going to go back one, one image. So let me go back one more image. So this roof is right along the left or south edge as you're walking up the ramp. So it's the roof above this section of the building. It's a very shallow pitch. The goal of this, it's an area that collects a lot of moisture, leaves, a lot of water runoff from the roof has been a chronic problem. So the goal here is to deepen the existing gutter to really allow water to flow more successfully away from and off the roof. So membrane roofing will be removed. Blocking and fascia in the built up gutter will also be removed. There'll be new raised wood blocking attached to the roof that will deepen, as I mentioned, the gutter profile. And then there'll be a new single ply gutter liner. Membrane flashed into the adjacent membrane roof. And obviously new wire downspout strainer and new drip edge, metal drip edge flashing. There'll be some chimney repairs that will also continue to help prevent water intrusion into the building. The East chimney detailed on the left was reconstructed at some point, but the West chimney retains its historic appearance. So some nonhistoric material, the exhaust hood and support brackets will be removed from the East chimney and the chimney will be reconstructed to support, will to match the West chimney and then to support a new chimney cap. So in other words, restoring a historic appearance. There'll also be a new concealed stainless steel plate and clamping ring to support the existing flu liner within the chimney. And then a new blue stone chimney cap topping chimney. Part of this project also involves a lot of interior work, some of it non-mechanical and other parts of it, systems related. As part of the systems project at the interior, the existing AC condenser at the West, kind of Northwest end of the proper of the yard. You can see where the red arrow is. So it's behind shrubs. It's probably familiar with it, not visible from the street shielded by vegetation. The one AC unit will be replaced by two units. And finally under the West porch. So under this porch, there is a cellar window. The proposal is to carefully take out the existing sash window stored on site and install one new louvert aluminum screen within the existing window frame as part of the systems upgrade. And that is hidden underneath the porch and by the porch lattice, so not visible. And that is the scope of the exterior work for which we are looking for a certificate of appropriateness. Shall I keep sharing my screen then, in case there are questions? I'm sure. Yeah, there might be specific questions about. Okay. Aspects of the work. Okay. I'm happy to answer any questions. And as you know, Jane is also here and she can answer questions. I have a question. Can you hear me? Yeah. Okay. The woodland is behind the house. I live on lessy street on the other side. And those woodlands that have housed a lot of wildlife that. Rones the neighborhood from time to time. And I'm wondering if that will be affected or if that will maintain its. As of now, naturalistic. Landscape there. Well, we aren't proposing any changes to that area as part of this project. And I, I haven't heard that there will be any proposal for changes there, but I'll let Jane jump in. Yeah, there's nothing of that sort as proposed for this project. And there are no fixed plans at this point for changes. Okay. Thank you. I'm curious as to who, I'm not even sure who owns that. That little forest that's behind the house between the back of the house and lessy street. Is that the Dickinson property or is that Amherst college property? That little woodland. It is Amherst college property. All Emily Dickinson museum property is Amherst college property. And, and there is a, the dormitory at the top of the hill that is Amherst college. Thank you. It's quite a little wildlife haven there for better or worse, but that has to be there. Fox and bears and whatever. Okay, thank you. Anybody else have questions or comments for. Bruce. Not surprisingly, I think it's very thoroughly sought out and I think it's a good piece of work or collections of pieces of work. And I looked closely at what you were showing. I was leaning in. I have a big screen. I could see most of the detail. I could read some of it and a lot of it actually. And I think I understand pretty well what you're doing. It's certainly as far as the, as far as the water, the settlement, the vision that is largely driven by water, I guess, in that area, seems to be very important to work to do. And obviously everybody would be very pleased that it's, that you're able to do it and to do it. Apparently so. In such a robust fashion. The I know, I noticed. portion of the ramp and then replacing it and resealing it, that seemed to be just regular wood. It seemed to be a not terribly good condition and looked like it might not last very long but I guess you must have thought that through and so forth and in every other respect it seems to be robust in both from terms of its historical appropriateness and in terms of the building science and water exclusion strategies that you've adopted in service of solving the problems you have so I again I have no questions but I thought I should at least make some comment to indicate that I wasn't asleep while you were talking. Well thank you. You know I don't know how old the ramp is I'm sure Jane does and I suspect that the architects have taken a pretty close look. This is a team that's been on the scene at the Emily Dickinson Museum for a long time and hopefully they're alert to what the conditions of the ramp are and what will be involved. And it's really not any of my business I just you showed me a photograph right down the ramp and I looked at the photograph and it looked like you might be back shortly but well certainly if there is obviously if there is any change to the plan to simply reinstall the existing ramp you know we presumably will be back before you if that comes to pass. I mean maybe consider the minimum change if you're so but no we've spent too long on this already. I'm happy to answer any other questions if you have any. I don't have any questions just to compliment both you and Jane Shantia for the excellent work you've done on it. It's such a valuable property and we're just glad to be small participants ourselves in keeping it going. Great. Well that's very nice of you I have to say I've only been on the scene for about a year Jim. This project has been in the works and in a number of iterations to really arrive at what the best possible plan is since 2018 so it's really Jane who has shepherded this along. Thank you all for your comments about the work that we're trying to accomplish importance of this property and its structures for a long time to come. Does anybody else have any comments or questions from the commission? Just brief more as a neighbor than as a commissioner but both I'm delighted I mean just we're so privileged to live in this in one of the historic houses in the district and with the care of those the houses the Dickinson houses is just so important a part of our lives and the community. Thank you so much. Great thank you. Ben is there anybody who in the public who would want to comment? No I don't think so. Maybe I could do what I should have done last time and move to close the public hearing. Can we do it on show of hands Ben or does it have to be? Yeah as long as you know. Is everyone okay closing the public hearing at this point? And if there's no well even if there is I could start the ball rolling again by moving to grant the project at 214 Main Street the Evergreen's a certificate of appropriateness finding that the proposed work meets the review criteria expressed in sections 8.1 and 2 of the Amherst local historic bylaw and that the proposal is compatible completely so with the appearance of the neighborhood and won't have a negative impact on the Dickinson local historic district that the the certificate be granted as without conditions and based on the documentation submitted. So motion. Okay can we vote now? Yes okay. Bruce Culdem? Vote yes. Jim Lumley? I approve. Peggy Schwartz? I approve. Greta Wilcox? I approve. Karen Winter? I approve. And I'm Judy Strayer and I approve. So it's unanimous. Great thanks Jane and Shanti for coming today. Thank you. Thanks thanks to you all on the commission and for the the wonderful work you're doing that we're doing together. Yes I was going to say that you certainly are holding up your end of whatever table it is that there grows. Thank you so much. Thank you all. Thank you. Bye. Great thanks everyone it's been a while since we had public hearings that there was kind of a slowdown in the during the winter but I think applications are starting to pick back up now. Okay. Will we be able to meet in person at some point or with the changes in COVID and the guidelines for? Yeah so we're authorized to meet via Zoom until July 15th. That's when the governor's emergency order ends. More likely than not there will be legislation passed to extend that. It's kind of our expectation at least to have Zoom as an option but so until then we'll probably meet remotely. And then I think you know there's space limitations in town hall. Still there's occupancy limits on some of the on some of the rooms. I see. And so it's also you know if every board and committee moves towards meeting in person then it's going to be challenging to find space but yeah we can definitely talk about that you know as we get closer to mid-summer. I think there's pros and cons of meeting on Zoom I think. So next on the agenda we have a public meeting portion of the agenda. I've invited Michael Ching from he's a resident at 17 Elm Street to discuss his window replacement project with us. So Judy is it okay if I invite Michael in? Yeah please do. Hi everyone. Hello. Hi. Hi so I'm Michael Ching and this is my wife Heather Adams and we we moved into 17 Elm Street in October and we are we are expecting a baby in the next couple of weeks and and so we've been having to get our house de-ledded and the main part of the de-ledding process has been replacing the windows. So we you know we got some so our de-ledder ordered some some windows from from Pella and the main I think the main question for the commission is is to do with the grills on the windows so our house currently has 12 over 12 grills so the you know we we you know we talked with the with with someone from Pella about the options for the grills they they told us that the to get 12 over 12 we would have to you know move up to a more expensive type of window so we you know what we've what we've chosen are the you know the the sort of the lowest level wood windows they said the Pella people said we couldn't get the 12 over 12 grills with that kind of window and they also they gave us a quote for the for six over six grills for for those windows which they said was the what we could get and and that quote was already quite a lot more you know we we were taking out a loan to pay for the de-ledding in the first place and we we didn't want to have to also pay for the grills so so we were hoping to you know to have the windows replaced and not you know not not add the the grills on on top so I think that that summarizes the situation Ben is was there anything else that we should say um no I think you know that that kind of is an overview of the you know situation you're in and I think the that's just the reality of it I think with the with the de-ledding process you're kind of had a sense of urgency obviously to get get that done and so I guess the question for the commission is you know obviously there is a an avenue for you know a certificate of hardship which I don't know if I've been a part of of that an issuance of such certificate but you know this could be an instance where that where that's considered if um meeting the threshold of you know replacing the windows is is you know a financial burden um and so I guess I just you know wanted to rather than you know in the past for some minor projects like this I've sent an email around to say hey you know what do you what does everyone think about this but I thought this kind of rose to the occasion of it would be nice to have a discussion about it amongst the commission members here so um would it be helpful if I I can share a google street view here and I can just show the the house in its um condition with the 12 over 12 grills run elm street here so the between Lincoln and sunset and the house um I I sent around the form B for the house so it's I think it was it was a mid-century house so not kind of part of the you know historically um significant period of the you know historic district per se um it still obviously is a nicely constructed house it's not like some of the other what we call the intrusions in the in the district it's a it's a much more elegant uh cape design um at the center nice center chimney um yes uh that chimney is consistent with a very very old house it's uh right in the center and it's very big Michael how many uh flus do you have in that chimney do you know um no I I don't know it's okay it's it's it when when I first look at the house I thought oh that's pretty old based simply on the fact that in the old days the chimneys were in the center of the house they had fireplaces and and boilers for so forth and even ovens sometimes and and the mass of the chimney was in the center and then as the houses as time went by the they migrated to each end when uh and for various reasons so it was built in 1940 at least yeah I'll say that yes and it's you would think well I guess they kept the chimney in the center but in 1940 you would have thought there would have only been one flue and or maybe two actually and that just looks well it just looks like there's four flues there at least and so that it's just a puzzle I made some comment I think in a previous hearing about one of the houses on sunset where I we had a similar scale chimney and it was credited with being 1942 and I I challenged the uh the applicant uh to saying are you really sure of that because it really looked like it was much older so now I'm looking at another chimney but perhaps with even sharper provenance so I think I'm going to have to fold on my historic dating based on chimneys yeah um question related to the um so you're asking us whether we could whether you could replace the chimney and replace the windows with no grills at all is that correct that that's right yes um before we one one one one one suggestion that or thought I could offer and it may be too late but um with the farmhouse in North Amist uh it being a historic uh at least we had worked on with funds from the CPA through the historic preservation portal so we were not replacing windows we were um because of that we were uh deletting them and repairing them and reinstalling them and we came across a really wonderful team of women a female operated workshop called the old window workshop in Springfield um a woman wonderful woman who runs a business where she employs a lot of younger and less advantaged women and they did a really good job and possibly competitive with replacing the windows so I'll just mention that if you wanted to follow it up it's called the old window workshop right in in Springfield but you would basically be reinstalling the existing windows with new glass and new um repairing the sashes and repainting them and so forth with paint that was um not led so I I should say that um and and you know Ben told us before this was okay we've we've already gone ahead with with doing the window replacement um you know because of the the urgency of the deletting with the the baby arriving soon so um so we've you know our deletters have actually been working over the last couple weeks on on the window replacement without without grills at the moment um and and so I I I guess I think the ship has sailed on on that suggestion unfortunately okay that's that's that's fine so so the windows would go in and then look so the question before us is whether you buy the grill inserts and snap them in place yeah right that's right that that's right okay I just also wondered if community preservation grant money might be available for um doing work like this because I know they like to do grants for private homes as well as um other things um yeah I think we could potentially explore that my only concern is that um typically with CPA funds the applicant is then required to have a preservation restriction placed on their house and you know at you know at a certain point this you know this house is already in the local historic district so there is a there is a level of protection there um I've never been part of a CPA grant for like a small project typically you know CPA grants are given out in the tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars for larger preservation or restoration efforts um but you know I think um so I don't know I could definitely inquire about that it could also just something that we suggest as an alternative to people yeah because everything's so expensive but yeah anyway um one thing that when I I do know about with CPA to my uh cost uh well to sadly is that um the CPA won't reimburse so if if so I suppose that windows haven't been purchased so the grills at least the grills so you would have to make sure make clear that these that you're making an application to purchase the grounds to snap into the existing windows um and so long as you don't buy them beforehand and seek reimbursement you've got a case but if you they will not reimburse you for expenses um at least they made that very clear to me uh in the North Amherst community firm right right uh Karen yeah I I wonder do do you um it seems like the windows are already in I congratulate you I know what a horrible thing it is to have lead paint when a baby is coming um so it's good that you're being safe I think if you uh if you pursue this it might be really worth it that you say you know that this is a lovely little house in keeping with the neighborhood uh apply for a grant and see if you can get it and if you get it if you would like to then install the grills uh that that might be the way to go and it's nice to hear about about this grant helping people to um preserve especially with lead windows I'm I'm now in the picture with that too with the with the big house that has led windows and it's just exorbitantly expensive to do lead windows so um and and these houses are the the windows were so beautiful and it was somehow so attractive but I'm I'm very happy that you're being safe and I'm so glad that you're having a baby so congratulations we we we did pay extra to um have wood windows um because we know we're in the historic district we could have saved a lot of money by just getting vinyl um and you know now that they've gotten rid of the storm windows it's actually a lot easier to see the um unique interior shutters when you shut the shutters it wasn't very easy to see them before that's because of the storm windows being there um yeah so um I'm just feeling a bit stressed out because we have a number of other it's really important house repairs we have to do um with funds too and um they're not aesthetic they're functional so and also we both work full-time I'm only taking two weeks of maternity leave so I don't think I'm going to be able to apply for grants in my free time but hopefully maybe Michael can thank you for these suggestions yeah I mean we can definitely look into that and I didn't know anything about the community preservation grant so we can we can definitely look into that thank you yeah um Greta she's going to say it's a gorgeous house is it a built gas house do you know yes it's a beautiful and congratulations thank you Bruce um let me say something that's kind of potentially heretical here but given that it's notwithstanding what I said before that it looked like it was from the 18th century because of the chimney but in fact it's uh uh from my parents generation and quite recent and so forth that these um these grills these mountains as they were really called when they really were were for the purpose of accommodating a large window space with very small panes of glass because that was the technology of the day um so we can say well it's a historic district and a lot of the windows in the district are like that and therefore perhaps we should think in terms of having grills on the other hand you could say one this house is not of that vintage even though it is in the district it's already constructed in 1940 it never really had these need of these small windows and once you replace them with a very large pane of glass which is the the way windows are done now how important is it how for us and and and how how definitely do we believe that it is appropriate to put this fake uh uh construct over the over this glass certainly from the interior point of view it means you can't see out as easily so it doesn't it doesn't improve the uh functionality of the building um so I would argue and and you've heard me on this before on other occasions that we should contemplate that it is appropriate to in this instance to uh not require the replacement of the grills with fake grills in a house that is not historic in the era of mountains which these never were how do we feel about that I agree with Bruce um I think that the windows were charming but the house is still charming um I just thought if the homeowners wanted to use the historic the community preservation grant but I didn't think it should be a requirement so Jim did you have a comment too yes I wonder if that's one of the houses that Bill gas took out of the uh quab and reservoir area interesting that is specifically I mean he did that up on Mount Pleasant and some other locations and uh do you Michael do you have a sense that the frame itself is is relatively modern wood that would have been in 1940s or is it old uh perhaps human wood I I really don't know uh we've we've heard people suggest it might have been might be one of the houses that came from the quab and but but I don't think anyone anyone knows for sure or at least we haven't we haven't heard anything definitive and there are a number of moisture problems so it certainly could come from the lake but we we are wondering that we're not sure yeah I I I can actually say that um I I don't live in the district I but I live on East Pleasant in the Mount in the Mount Pleasant neighborhood and um my house looks like your house with a gambrel cape roof and it from what we know um it was built in the early 19th century but it was renovated by Bill gas in the mid 19th century and we have a lot of the same details you know large central chimney um and when we replaced our windows probably 10 or 12 years ago we we did do the six over six but that's because that was what our at our house and it was um you know at the time it at the time it made sense but I I feel looking at your house that not having the grills is perfectly reasonable yeah I mean I personally um I guess I do feel quite claustrophobic with the grills it reminds me from the inside I'm talking about it reminds me of a sort of prison cell experience so I I would and I spend a lot of time at home so I love to look out the window and it it's just personally very nice for me the idea of not having the grills from the inside even though I love historic features of houses and I love looking at the architecture of all the houses in our neighborhood just from the inside from being at home a lot it would be really nice to have a better view if Jim I just want to add would there be any chance of putting the 12 over 12 inserts on the four front windows so that from the street it keeps its appearance so Pella Pella told us we can't have 12 over 12 with the windows that we bought we would have had to buy their highest tier wood window to be able to even have 12 over 12 from them I mean we we don't I mean there might be we haven't you know we haven't looked into it there might be a way to to get 12 over 12 from someone else that this was just what we were told by the by Pella originally so yeah it did perhaps you needed to well let me let me phrase it this way a handy carpenter could make those muttons on there it's it's not that difficult a job is that machine re-involved is very little and it would give you an opportunity to you know keep some of the historical look for that house I think I mean I got to admit I'm prejudiced I do like the 12 over 12 and that's the house I live in that did come from the quabbit but when you when you knock those windows down and make it just one big sheet of glass or even if it's into four or six pieces it really does change the architectural feature of that house visually anyway but you know I certainly do admire you doing the following the lead paint lawn doing that I'm an agent so I know the importance of dealing with lead paint I wonder I mean I had I'm hesitant to say this because I haven't done enough research but just walking around our neighborhood I've noticed that many of our neighbors don't have grills and their houses are older so I don't know what the historical implications of that are maybe the historic district came after they changed their windows but it seems like there aren't many houses that doesn't make it right yeah okay so it's not a good argument then I as I said it I haven't looked like we have a historic district convention just maybe yeah present some extremes of that okay a point of order I guess Jane are we we're not actually here to make a decision this is an informational hearing is that correct um I think there should be some clarity on on how Michael and sorry I didn't catch your name Heather Michael and Heather can move forward but I didn't have the opportunity to advertise this as a public hearing for a certificate of appropriateness so it's more I guess like an advisory okay so some some declaration on the part of the commission is called for I just wanted to know yeah what the end objective was here well it's interesting I listened to Jim and he's persuasive and there's two ways of thinking about this and I I think the idea of of Michael Heather how many windows in total are you taught have you replaced we've had 18 windows replaced 18 and how many are on the front there's four four along the front the front four so Jim's talking about doing something particular for four out of 18 windows and and that that sounds like a good path to compromise here Greta Greta hi I'm actually looking right at your house from my window it's like Sarah Palin huh yeah I can show you um there you go but I don't um it's an interesting idea to have the front four windows but I think in this the way this house is situated it would look odd to have four windows with the panels and the other one's not because from the street you see the whole house or you see the sides of the house too so I would okay well you're the you're the you're the you're the resident expert so I know I have a comment as well um just talking about doing the inserts um while I think it might give you the visible division from the exterior it's still to me looks I don't know less than historic I would say um not I'm not a big fan of them and and they break and if you're going to have children running around they're you know they're a potential to be just yanked out and broken um and I just I guess I don't see them as that historically accurate so I think it's an anachronism I think the world has moved forward and I mean I really respect Jim's argument and I and I he's absolutely right you know this commission was was put together to to stop backsliding that in many cases already happened and in fact the argument that was successful in persuading the town to vote to create us was the kind of backsliding that you mentioned here there in an instance of and and Jim's absolutely right um on the other hand um I'm now engaged in in my own head what is appropriate here and it just seems to me I agree with with Judy that this is the ship has sailed on on windows I think because of the way in which we do windows now and and how difficult and and unnatural almost really yes it is actually from a from an industrial point of view unnatural that is to produce divided light windows in the current era and we're you know all in the direction we're going which is you know trying to provide comfort and and and performance and durability in houses it's we've we've our windows have gone in a direction and so the story of this neighborhood you know in years hence will be how we've not I believe how we've maintained the everything consistent with the 19th century but how we've allowed the 20th and then now the 21st century to graciously and appropriately fold itself into the initial fabric of the founding you know characteristics of the district and so for that reason I'm with you Judy and saying that that the windows the wood they've replaced them with wood windows they've replaced the windows we've got past lead and so forth and they've made a solid effort and I I don't think that we should feel obligated to to require mountains and whether that's done by by virtue of a motion to grant a certificate of hardship or whether it's just that we declare the absence of the mountains appropriate it from a precedent point of view been it might be better to well I don't know actually because there's two different roots here if we declare that the mountains are not necessary for appropriateness we've created a precedent of that case if we declare a certificate of hardship we've said well you know we're going to forgive people spending money if they've got other things they'd rather spend it on so I mean both of those paths as from could be considered invidious so it's this is a small question Michael did you raise but I think it's not insignificant for us how we go on this I know how I've made my case and that's that would be the way I will think on it but I definitely recognize that there are other ways there are other ways to think about this yeah I mean I think some sort of more like an advisory opinion or something could could work here but you know recognizing that they've won there's lead abatement involved which is you know a unique aspect to they they did get the wood windows which was a step higher and you know just you know based on that that you know in this case the exact replication would not be required and also the you know the 12 by 12 you know exact replication necessitated even a step higher in terms of window you know expense I guess so you know I don't think it necessarily needs to be a precedent setting for for the you know every decision on windows made in the future I guess there are some in my mind I see some specific so if I was going to create a motion of some sort that would at least help us move forward even if we defeated it it what it would be how would I how would I how would I phrase it I could it's not necessarily that we're declaring this appropriate to forgo the the mountains or is it I mean would it be that this commission does not feel obligated to require the app the not even applicants at this point I mean the the petitioner to to to to install mountains in the in the divided lights or at least similar whatever the grills I guess grills grills denoting uh mountains to divide lights in the new in the 18 new windows that they've installed as part of a delaying process something like that I think yeah now the thing is that the saving grace for this is that we this can be this can be undone we could if we if we were to vote to approve a motion of that sort we could come back a year later and override it because mountains it's not like this the ship is never going to sail you can always snap in some months so if for some reason that it's we're made to appreciate that we've made a mistake or you know it's created a major mistake we can undo it so at that to that extent at least we're not we're not getting we're not likely to get ourselves in trouble I I think we're also doing this specific to this one project we're trying to you know one house which the scale the scale of the house not having mountains is different than a much larger house with many more windows that are visible you know that you would expect to happen um that's I mean to me that's what you know would not be would would not create a precedent you know that would cause issues I guess Jim Jim may have a I'd be very concerned about creating a precedent that but a little but could we grant this based on you know the fact that it's not really a older house since it was built mid-century hardship in that sense so that we don't get caught down the way saying everybody's coming to us and and going to have open windows yeah yeah yeah I've been one way to do this I I agree with uh with with Jim I think that really is the the core a core condition or or or proviso um I'm going to ask you do you um would it be appropriate to ask you to not exactly draft a motion but to to draft an opinion that say that we could then adopt because I'm thinking that it might be better if if instead of trying to draft this on the fly right now that if you were to write something up I would be happy for you to send it to me send it to me and and and I'm sure Jim would too uh and anybody else so that we can get the wording of it the way we feel is constructive but with a view to um relieving Michael and Heather of the obligation of purchasing and installing these grills but if if if they know if you too Michael and Heather if you know that that's the direction we're trying to head in but that we would like to do it in a way that doesn't come back to bite us or you I'm wondering Ben whether drafting an opinion that we could then adopt as a commission unfolding Jim's observations and and everyone's you know duties and and so forth um would you be is that something that you would be prepared and just appropriate for you to do yep yeah I can do that and I'll commit to reviewing um the paragraph or two that you might write and uh so don't feel like you have to polish it up too much just get it down and then and then the rest of us can comment and we can we can take it up but down next meeting okay does that seem to work I think that works works for me yeah Peggy yeah we're that works works for me I think that to give the homeowners as much um leeway into whether they want to be living with those crosshatch inserts that are not part of the original part of the house that they purchased that's that's where my um I'm not true the legality of my thinking but that's certainly where my sympathies sympathies lies the first house that uh that we bought when we moved here was in hell and it had these things that's a new house that was supposed to look sort of cavity and it had these windowing surf things and and they were really they just felt they were just blocking my view of this of the woods behind the house blah blah blah you know first thing we did was take those things out they were not part they were not integral really to the house and this this feels a little bit like trying to micromanage a decision for a family that that's has an aesthetic preference that sounds strong so I'm not sure if that's helpful or not but that's that's that's the way I'm leaning great thanks beggy um unless there's any other questions or comments um I'll draft up the opinion and I can send it around but um I think for and for now Michael and Heather are all set yeah thank you so much for coming thank you thank you all very much thanks for your consideration congratulations thank you great all right thanks all are we we still have everyone right yeah um just we lost our attendees here so um next on the agenda is just to check in about the um study committee and kind of okay oh great okay um yep yeah pat off is still here so I think um the discussion about the subcommittee I uh just wanted to I guess recognize yeah I think so for committee meetings that are I think I kind of uh in my mind separated meetings that are more of like work related like if if you guys are meeting to look over research and put together a narrative and I think that is obviously difficult to do um over zoom and and in a planned setting so I had said that that can be exempt from you know needing to be in public meetings but for more like goal setting and check-ins and discussion on strategy I think it's important that the those types of meetings happen in a public setting whether it's over zoom or perhaps in the future could those could be in person as well yes I think the the uh the deliberative sorry the the the the goal standard I guess is the is our site meetings we go there to gather data and so so long as these unpublished you know unposted meetings are of more than two people there for gathering data I think we would just say it's the same as the site meeting exactly yeah and then we would have to in our own minds uh behave behave appropriately right which is you know requires a small amount of discipline ideas that which I'm sure we're capable of rising to so yeah what are folks thinking about the um study committee or where where is the I haven't it's been a while since I guess I've heard a progress report and discussion about next steps aren't there um yeah you haven't gotten any progress reports because there hasn't been much progress been because we haven't received any reports and uh being alone I think um uh Jim at the last time we met at Jennifer's and I you know I apologize because I invited Pat and Hedy and I called it like goals and strategizing when really it's I shouldn't have called it that because what we want to do is figure out how to work together to have progress and in order to have that progress we it would have been very helpful to get a little bit more background information from Pat and Hedy who seemed to know have have a lot more expertise than the four of us um especially now that we've lost Jennifer because Jennifer threw her husband who was part of this original team uh had much more information of how it came that our historical district has the boundaries that it does and how to expand so I was just hoping that we would get that information and be able to incorporate it into how are we going to present this what's useful how are we going to bring our separate research of our five houses or four houses or six houses together in a form that's that's useful um yeah so I still I guess that does clarify we just have to call it a work meeting because that's what it is all we I mean that's all we do and I think that is um pretty I don't know I think that means that it would be good for all of us to be together um that are on this subcommittee and also to be able to invite other people and then just make sure that we're not that that it's work how are we going to put it together what information how are we going to bind it where are we going to go from there mm-hmm yeah um I have a question um the going back to this the quite how this issue first got raised um did it come directly to our commission from the regular historic commission or from the town manager um because I guess before we jump into specifics about organizing each of the properties I feel like we need to even even just have an overall goal of what is it we're trying to do with this and because they didn't do it last time there was a reason for it you know um politics they specifically they specifically left that section of north pleasant street off and um so I guess what what do we need to know that they know um you know and is and is this feasible in terms of his you know you know are these properties actually of historic value I know some of them are um I think Pat has your hand up um I just thank you for inviting me in current thank you for extending the invitation to heady and me I can I can backtrack a little as a member of the Amherst historical commission right that we um became concerned about the development on north pleasant street and the fact that there are historic houses um on the west um side of the street that and some on the east side of the street if we were to go and started like CBS and work north and so I volunteered to pull the form bees from macros for all of the properties on north pleasant street starting at CBS and going to um the end the Kendrick park and I'm forgetting what the cross street is at the end of Kendrick park but in any event I made that all available to the local historic district because we were advised that it was the local historic district who needed to apply for expanding that district and and that I think is the term there is for those of you who might not be aware Massachusetts publishes a guide to establishing a historic districts local historic districts and and so the first part of that is exactly what you all went through to establish your district but there is there is a section that says what do we do to expand local historic district and essentially you need to do the same process that was done to create the first your your district as it is and I think the first thing is I understood as a member of the historical Amherst historic commission was that you needed to identify the properties you needed to pull form bees you can you can write form bees for properties that you've researched where they're not a part of macros but having that data and maybe a little bit of narrative when I was going through the form bees many of those properties even though they have commercial additions at the ground level have a historic name and there's information about who the architect was and who the residents were initially and so that you could build a narrative from that but I think that what needs to guide you is is this this document because what what as I understand it Ben Ben can take over from here but as I understand it get doing all the homework and all the background of identifying the properties you'd like to expand the district to include and you need to follow all of the steps as though you were establishing the district for the first time so is that clear so did I do do that all right yeah you did a great job um no thank thank you I know I I I totally I understand that um and I live I live very close to there and I do not you know definitely do not want to see the west side of Kendrick park become like the east side of you know of east of that part of east pleasant street with the big buildings um I just guess my concern is why wasn't it you know I know it wasn't included in the beginning because of politics but um there's 20 21 22 properties I think um and some of them have some of them have been renovated or changed a lot so do we you know does that change when we apply for the historic district I guess um you know the ratio of properties that actually are considered historic um I think just as with the Lincoln Sunset district there can be like a core of historic properties but then there can always be um homes that are included in the district but that are recognized as either I think they're called intrusions or or non-contributing resources okay so the ones yeah so the ones along that long north cousins that are newer okay yeah so Ben is it possible that for the sake for information for this committee um the local historic district commission that you could send them the link to the establishing the Massachusetts document establishing a local historic district because as I understand it to include those properties on north pleasant street you you need to um follow the same guidelines as if you were that were followed when the district the local historic district was created so it would be really helpful for you with the corn bees in hand to follow that guideline to know what you need to do to take these properties and try to expand the district to include them yep I can definitely share that I think that's a it's a helpful resource it is a helpful resource um I have a question so when they establish the original historic district it was a group of people but they were not um I guess they were not subject they didn't have to abide by the meeting all the different meeting rules because they were just doing this no they did they did yeah okay um there's there's I've come across the meeting minutes before and yeah I came across some but I'm just thinking yeah I mean because back to what Karen was saying before that's I just see this as being made more challenging by the fact that so much of it has to be yeah we can't just like talk about it yeah and that's fine you know that's fine that needs you know um yeah I mean another option could be to um apply for CPA funds to hire a consultant to do the work however I think well first of all the in terms of funding cycles then applications would be due in like fall yeah the fall and then the money wouldn't become available until july of um 2023 so um over the money actually wouldn't become available until like kind of like 15 months from now um just because we're just you know just after the 2022 funding cycle so um there are sometimes exceptions made they can do off cycle funding requests and maybe that's something to explore especially if it's only for a few thousand dollars to hire a consultant um but but again I think um CPA requests have to go before first of all the CPA commission and then the town council and so you're kind of it would require the town council at least to you know be enthusiastic and and support this project which you know they might be but um I guess it's just to say that when you apply for the funding it would open yourselves up to kind of close your scrutiny of the project right and Ben I remember having some conversation with this group um that the strategy of when you contact the property owners and when you go public whether it's asking for CPA funding or or another act and so that I would I would caution that that's something to consider because um if you were to move forward with this and I personally think it's an excellent idea um the property owners need to know so that that that they're they're not the last to know they they need to know that this is is an idea concept and a philosophy um I think that Jim Greta and I have completed our houses this form B Pat that you're talking about she is new and she's had to take over for Jennifer and so these houses are not done but Judy we can help you um the library and the reference in the special collections pretty much did the work for Jennifer said she didn't do any any unfortunately didn't do any of it so she gave me what she had so I would say you could take your your uh five or you said there's six houses that she has and there's actually there's actually seven because 346 which is kind of behind tucked behind um the unpleasant apartments should be part of should be part of it she thought so maybe if there's seven uh yeah I'll I'll look I haven't I haven't I haven't count there's either six or seven but but so I recommend maybe if you can get to four of them and give me one maybe give Greta one gives Jim one we're done we can do one more you could do those four and as I said the reference librarian is so helpful she'll do it for you then we have these form B's Pat which is what we need and we can think about the narrative if something special comes up but we don't have to you know when we were meeting before we thought well maybe we'll go to the special collections and start reading the history of Amherst this big volume and it's a little daunting to do all this work when we don't know right and I don't think you need that much detail kind right right so I think you need the the pertinent you know when was it built what's the style of architecture which is their historical reference name for it et cetera and if there's any more information that you get from the reference library and of course add that to it but I don't think each house needs to take a 10-year research project right exactly but and even the form B's that that you perhaps put together the reference librarian she photocopied them for me and handed them to me so uh that was very helpful so then we have that and if Ben emails us the the next steps that we have to go to which I've heard you know contacting the neighbors and all this then we can work on that that would be I would say a working committee like how are we going to tackle this who's going to do this and so we could just meet I'm assuming because it's not or or Ben is this again an open meeting thing where we say okay how are we going to contact the neighbors and let them know what we're planning is that is that working or is that I think I think that level of strategy should be done in the public you think that should be public okay yeah again if it's if it's um if it's just two of you like on walking around the neighborhood talking I think that's fine but um you know I think or even even three I think that's fine but I think um there should always be a report back to the committee it's uh to kind of go over those um kind of strategy the next steps I think when it when it becomes four people it becomes a forum of the committee and then that that that's when there's a violation yeah actually I lied to question because there's only six of us right now if there's three of us is that a quorum um uh no I think it's still I think it's still four okay um yeah but can I just backtrack just a little bit and Ben you would have the answer for this I'm I'm assuming that as you researched houses as a group and individually the that you found some that did not have a form b and you're creating the form b which is what we were just talking about but Ben could you speak a little bit to the fact that that this committee can file those form bs it doesn't it doesn't have to be um a larger process is that correct oh yeah yeah really anyone can fill out um a form b and submit it to the macros portal um you know it gets a a level of review that from the massachusetts historical commission but yeah I think if there's homes that are not inventoried or inventories that are lacking um detail that you can always fill out or amend a form b and submit that to the state so that might be a good next step if you've created form bs for some of these properties to get them identified and and you can do that as a as a group from your local historic commission or or you can do it individually if you've done it you can you can forward it along and I'm sure that there must be instructions on the macro site um telling you how to do that um Ben I I'm afraid I have to go I'm I've got something that's cropped up and I no wonder and I'm not part of the the subcommittee so and I think this is the last item so could I be excused and uh yeah I just wanted to before you go maybe just uh set the next meeting date we do have a an application that was just submitted um so I was thinking either uh Monday April or sorry I don't even have I don't have time to advertise that uh either yeah we could do Monday May 4 uh what is that May 2nd could work does that work for folks yep yep same uh 3 3 p.m. yep yes that works for me 3 p.m. did you say yeah so okay um then I guess we're feel free to go thanks for joining us thank you everybody bye bye sorry to have to love come pat I have a question how do you recommend contacting the neighbors how did you do that before I wasn't part of that process um but I think there probably are minutes that can be retrieved that would describe how the conversation around that and how it was done um I think the difference being is that your local historic district sunset um oh my goodness um the the streets that are included in it um there were residents who were spearheading this because they wanted the neighborhood protected right this is a little different because the the local historic district is spearheading this it's not initiated by the by the property owners actually I I have a question um I'm still concerned about the number of properties that really aren't historic along there and what I guess what the ultimate goal is versus the town's zoning and I understand we want to protect the scale and everything but some of them really aren't historic so in their commercial um I just I just see a lot of the developers who own the properties there is being in opposition to this um I mean I could be wrong but sorry have you have you reviewed the form bs for those properties Judy I have but I'm just saying live you know I I I haven't reviewed all of them but I'm just saying looking just just you know I walk by there all the time looking at that whole block there's so much commercial stuff there that when we contact the home the owners of the properties they're not actually people who live there is what I'm saying is the difference I guess that's my concern is is like what do we ultimately want from from all of this you know I'm well taken I can't think of what the fairytale would be like inviting the wolves kind of thing I mean we we wanted to be I mean for me I would say I would want it to be the same you know a nice the scale would be appropriate and you know um and it's not going to be five-story buildings right up to the street edge but that's not necessarily done by declaring it an extension of the historic district that's also part of the town planning and zoning issues I think I just think I think we need to be mindful that we're not the only tool to prevent huge development from occurring on that side of the street that's all yep I can speak yeah please I one I think one reason that that we wanted the subcommittee wanted to get together was to get some consistency on the kind of information that we got and compare our form B's and the additional information you know that we've written some narratives on some of these properties and start thinking about a comprehensive overall write-up the single write-up that that would eventually go to the historic commission the and then town council something that would have an argument that these houses do need to be included within the district I mean that that was a reason in the last few weeks of trying to get together at least the four of us and isn't that still we can't do that you're saying Ben yeah correct well yeah I'm a little unclear sort of a subcommittee of the historic commission I think I must have missed the first part of what you said Jim can you well I was saying one reason to get together was to be able to coalesce the information we've got right right so it's you know relatively even yeah and then start with a you know another goal for us is to start with a write-up as to you know giving some reasons to why this should should occur yeah I also want to point out to Judy is that some of those properties that are commercial um they actually started as single family houses of some know 150 almost you know more years ago oh no no I understand that I'm more talking about like the apartment buildings and you know um yeah they yes yeah but they exist right um but we're certainly not trying to stop development down there our purview or this is is simply to have it try and fit into the neighborhood and it's understanding what its mass would be in the neighborhood and if you want a five-story building there just let the planning board continue the way they're going so then there's I don't see an open meeting where the four of us sit down read each other these fact sheets and say how can we coalesce them do you really think that needs to be an open meeting I mean that's a working thing yeah no so yeah no so I think I'm drawing the distinction that if you're developing the report and and comparing notes and and actually writing a document I think that's fine for you all to meet and that's what we do but I but I think if you're you know talking about you know how to you know strategy to contact homeowners and you know next steps and and thinking about kind of the broader picture of this whole project um I think that should be done okay or but yeah it's a little leeway I think uh to do what Jim what we need to do which is read each other these forms and have uh and coalesce them yeah yeah from then on the next steps that Pat uh said you you're gonna email us those would be the strategy how should we and those could be open news yeah correct and I would just suggest that as part of going through the form B's that exist to inform yourselves but going through the form B's that you've created that you file those sooner than later because it's going to take a little while for them to be acted on to become part of macros and so if historic preservation is the goal or at least hearings about it for properties if there is a form B that led some leads credibility to the historic um notability of the property yeah yeah I think that Matt Mac the folks at macros typically um at least the one that we did for the historical commission with the sorority building I submitted a form B for that and they accepted it within you know just a few days which was nice yeah so you could lend some guidance to the form B submissions Ben yeah yeah I'm wondering it's a little it's changing the subject a little bit but so as a continuation I'm wondering if we'll be able to start meeting in person soon because I think the kind of conversation that it's just different when you're looking at a screen and table together these are really important issues and perspectives to be taking on town development the development around town so it would be wonderful if we could be pulling ourselves if we could be together and maybe you could check that out for us what the guidelines are on that I would suggest doing that to us okay yeah I can look into that I basically started right uh this job right as the pandemic came into effect and everything went to zoom anyway so um yeah I've barely I think got a month of in-person meetings and then the straight straight to zoom well you've done a great job I mean I'm not just keeping no I know yeah yeah it's not bad but just it would be so wonderful to I know yeah I agree and I think we also agreed that Jim could still be part of this subcommittee even if in June his term expires right yep wonderful yeah we need you Jim about that Ben um I think that's fine yeah I mean I the the subcommittee is not really like a recognized you know town committee per se so um if anything it might help because you wouldn't count towards the quorum as being a local historic district commission member yeah no I hadn't heard what Karen just proposed before so right um you know yeah I'd love to be able to help after June but I wasn't expecting it yeah yeah so yeah again I don't mean to be a stickler I just think in in if if any of this were to be a challenge you know it would thwart a lot of the efforts of the study committee if if someone did take issue with open meeting law issues so I'm just trying to kind of navigate this as we go but um I think again there's you know kind of like Bruce said you can kind of treat those more working meetings similar to how we do a site visit you know there shouldn't be a lot of like deliberation on opinions or you know next strategy type things but if you're really just developing a report together I think that's fine you know that report will ultimately become public record anyway so I think that that's that's fine so so yeah is there anything else um study committee related I'll share the document in terms of you know steps for expanding and establishing a historic district I have this I have this thing is that oh yeah yeah yeah yeah like the flowchart that's right the flowchart um I think it's I don't know if this is a case for us but it talks about meeting with the mass historic commission yeah yeah yeah the mass historic commission has a they need to approve of the district but this yeah but even that's like the second the second step so yeah probably yeah good to meet with them even before the property owner opinion survey and stuff okay so okay all right yeah maybe it would be good to get some um so you don't need to hear from me all the time we can bring in uh I think Jennifer Doherty is her name she's the uh western mass kind of like rep for the mass historic commission maybe it'd be good to get some input from the state and I'm sure she deals with a ton of local historic district projects so um that could be a useful resource to hear from not in terms of resource but just to go on record I would like to suggest that given the where the Dickinson property is the little is a Taylor street that little curved street that comes in before the high school um yeah that comes off of lessy well it's diagonally yeah it's diagonally across from lessy um yeah yeah it's a little it's a little dirt road they haven't they haven't paved a bit the people on that road didn't want to pave because they didn't want to be beholden to they didn't want more traffic coming through and and they were able to get that through anyway just uh to whether it's hard for me to get this out there's the house on the corner which is often in states of greatness with here all right not technically part of the district but the the back of that that street backs right onto the Dickinson property so it seems to me it's like a gray area so while we're talking about the scope of our work whether that's something to talk about how to address in a way that would be equitable to the homeowner and also in some way extend the historic historic district a tad as it were to have a little what's saying and provide a little more guidance on what the issues are there just for the record yeah yeah i think um i can look closely at the historic district by law i think there is um i think there there's something about properties within a hundred feet of a historic district i think it's i think it's actually the other way around i think properties within a hundred feet of the district have the right to comment on projects within the district but i don't think it goes the other way i don't think no governance uh huh yeah yeah so let let it marinate okay i thought it had a how to deal with it absolutely it's equitable yeah so judy if you're if you have too many houses you're welcome to give me one thank you yeah i will uh i will i will look at them um as soon as as soon as i can and same too yeah thank you um yeah and i don't have anything for 346 do you know the name of the who's the reference librarian at the jones uh yeah what's her name uh i can't remember off and she's so helpful is she is she always at the reference desk there or i think they're always there if you if you find out google when the reference uh is open okay open they'll be there and the whole team will okay okay all right i thought it was like one one kind of just go there with your house that you have and say could you help please help me with this you were so helpful to all the rest and then they'll they'll they love doing it and they'll put it out and pre for you know what you've got your little packet yeah great judy some of those houses i took to the library for when um jennifer was doing them just to do it for her so the librarian has looked at some of those right and she jennifer gave me the um yeah the package of what she had so yeah right but but uh karn is right anymore not anything more you need the librarians are so easy to help yeah no that's great i just i didn't know if there was like one specific reference librarian to look for i can't remember who yeah her name is cindy cindy harbison that's right she works she works in special collections oh okay okay that's great besides cindy who got um who helped me so i think me too okay i'll i'll i'll find him thank you i thought it was really fun because each time i walk by those houses now i have this knowledge about them so it was fun to hear about the people that live there and and jim because of the pressure of meeting today i got a little notebook and a little and i put ring binders kind of because i was so impressed with how organized you were and it made a big difference now i have the four houses and so i think um yeah it's fun it's not that much work when you have all the help that we have here's mine and i also google so much big notebook oh it doesn't seem to show up on this i also found out interesting things just putting the various names in google and seeing what came up right this is full oh wow yeah and i found out this uh great story about triangle street how there was a battle i don't know if you know about this bend there was a battle between the two taverns the bogs tavern and then the old wood and they were vying for uh customers and so the people in the east they started building a road to make access from the west easier to their uh tavern so that they would get more uh customers and then the people from the bolt would they didn't like that so the the the east people built the road themselves in the morning and then in the evening the west people came and tore it all down again got to be such a battle that people would come from all around and watch them sort of they never they never physically fought each other but they'd rail they'd build the bridge and then the other ones would tear it down again and at the end that's how triangle street got built wow yeah really cool story that's why i don't yeah and you all have these folks these if you sit in my dining room you know these these two oh that's nice oh peggy oh have you i don't remember where i've gotten these though and then they're Hastings house them you can buy them at Hastings yeah they're wonderful they're they're little resources and there's stuff on the house in here which i just think is so great but i i i have many versions or many copies of that Dickinson district guide i'm eager to get rid of them if folks oh have them send them out yeah but they are fine uh so um you'd be reading in person coming up i mean how are you thinking about that that would be so exciting so i mean second is would not be good for me to meet in person i think because i'm just arriving back from spain and i also don't know if it's good for me because i'm just right arriving back from england on the second there you go boom probably with after i showed you i could do it i began to worry i i think yeah the the may meeting will be over zoom um we can't meet until in in person until july yeah good oh yeah that's mandated by the state yeah man i don't even know if i can do it over zoom i will have to check with my schedule and get i'll get back to you in may okay in may because may second is my flight home oh okay bro i can't i don't know i'm a big fan i think it's good to do it a week later i honestly do because i don't think grita you're gonna be here in time i don't think so um i was gonna say something but i thought whoa no you're absolutely right car and i just was optimistic and then i because i thought oh well i get back may second but i'm on the plane on may second yeah um all right well because bruce isn't here does may ninth work for everyone and i can email bruce just to confirm that would work for me yeah sorry that would work for me may nine yeah that would be better is the application do they need are they um do they need it done really quickly um i'm i'm sure they'd appreciate having it done quickly it's it's a commercial property so it's a little bit maybe their flexibility the baby being born was was um yeah dramatic bend the other possibilities we could change it so that we don't wait a whole week and just for do it on it it's not monday but if i could do it any other day that week okay we're coming home on the first and the second i could do the third but not the fourth uh the third okay yeah i can't do the fourth but any other times that week that could okay um yeah we could do the third um i'll i'll check with bruce just oh yeah i'll check with bruce just to make sure but i think i'm also happy just to kick it a week later to may nine so okay then i love your backdrop oh thank you yeah that's that's from uh special collections that jones i was before that yeah now the bank is there right oh no actually this is where a subway is it's that oh subway yeah yeah all right thank you all yeah taking our leave you have a good one cool already yeah i think we can adjourn thank you thank you thank you for all the information matt it was really helpful that you came thank you so much yeah thank you for inviting me and and i'm more than willing to you know support you in your efforts so thank you thank you adios all right bye bye take care