 All right, here we are. Another episode. I'll have to be talked. Fantastic guest today. Introduce yourself, my friend. What's up, Dean? This is our resident and CEO of Gibson. Yeah, man. Where are you at? Is that your office? Yeah, this is my office in Nashville, Gibson HQ. Where we make everything happen. Is that above the store downtown I went to? Yeah, this is in the same building where the Gibson garage that you came to is, yeah. Wow, what a cool room, man. It was good seeing you out there at the power trip. Man, what a great weekend was such an amazing experience. I know for you as a fan of all the bands, same for me, growing up, learning how to play pretty much every single band's songs from all those six bands, and then to have them all as a fan and to be rocking out there with some band members of the different bands with you and the Snakebid, that was the coolest experience that I've had in a very long time. Yeah, it was really, really wild. I didn't hear anything negative. The only thing I heard negative was from people that didn't go. You know how those people are? They sit on the couch and they go, ah, fuck that. And then really inside there like, ah, I wish I was there. You know? I, the moment it got announced, I had been working with the organizers. They had, you know, we did a couple of things with them. And so the moment I knew about it, when it got announced, I immediately set everything up and changed my schedule to be there because this is one of those moments. I hope it happens every year, but the first one is always going to be the most special one. I didn't want to miss it. Yeah, yeah, it's interesting when you look out there and you think about, you know, for one thing I look at Slash as really somebody that really kind of saved Gibson back in the day of the 80s when Charvels and Jackson were absolutely dominating the playing field. Here was a guy who was coming out full old school and playing Les Pauls. And not even real ones at the time, you know, a Max or that other one that he had. And it really put the classic back into rock, you know? Like, all of a sudden everybody was like, oh yeah, I need to get me a Les Paul. I had talked to Albert at one point that guitars are us back in the 90s and he said he was trading Charvels for 59s like they were just, you know, throwaway guitars. It's an amazing story. Yeah, Albert was one of those early guys who recognized these guitars are special, especially the collector 59s that you're talking about. I got one of my 59 first Gemini here with me. The, that era was incredible. And I think I couldn't agree more with you when Slash came out and the image at the time without social media that he had to go find who's this, you know, who's this Guns N' Roses band? Who's the guitarist? They sound epic. And then you see the image of Slash with his Derek appetite for the structure we call it Les Paul. I think that changed everything for us. Yeah, and simultaneously it's funny to think about how Slash is playing a fake Les Paul 59. And at the same time, Headfield's playing a fake V, the electric one, you know, from Japan. So it's wild to even think about that, that they're putting these guitars on the map and they were just, you know, quote unquote copy guitars. It's wild. And it's what they could get at the time. If you think about it, go back to the maybe the early days for you and for me growing up and what we could afford what we couldn't afford. And for James was that, that wide V that he's had forever that it's a, it feels like home to him. It's his most, you know, most play definitely gets the most stage time. Slash doesn't use his Derek replica anymore that guitar stays in the studio. And when he, when he goes out or we see he takes all of the things that we make for him. Slash doesn't even normally take any vintage instruments with him on the road cause he really beats them up. He uses them down to the core. He's always using his rig, which is what makes maybe on a related, but different note Kirk. So interesting playing Gemini every single night on stage with Metallica playing green. Sorry. Yeah. Yeah, it's, it's, it's, I opened for Metallica a couple of years ago doing comedy on their 40 year. And I got to slip into the, into the area where the guitars were and his tech was showing me. And apparently he scored a couple more of those copy V's. And I've been trying to find one for years. You know, I don't know where he found them, but when you, when you have like a network like Metallica, you can just be like, Hey, in Japan put the word out. I'm looking for a couple more of these because it looks like he had three when I was looking at him. Yeah, I wasn't aware of that. I don't, I, I, I don't know. We did make for Kirk, we made several greeny replicas. It's part of that reissue. And now we've got him on the price list in the custom shop made as a major order. So he's got, he's got a couple, but he always defaults back to playing greeny on stage. He's always, he's got the backups that we made for him, but he's always playing greeny. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, when you have that kind of money, I believe in play the real ones. You know, if I own that guitar, I wouldn't be able to play it because at any point I might have to sell it to survive. You know, that's the type of mentality I have. You know, sell everything you have to buy the one holy grail piece and hold on to it as long as you can, you know, at least it brings you a little inspiration at the time in your life, you know? Oh, I think for me is, is that something that's very relevant? I mean, clearly here you have my 59 called Gemini, that is the twin sequential serial number to greeny. And we did a whole story with Kirk about it, which is my number one go-to. And then I was able to get my hands on, and I know how big of an ACDC fan you are, by the way, that there be talk modified to, for those about to talk was pretty epic. Yeah. I love that one. But this is a, this is the actual first SG we ever made July 1960. This shape doesn't come out until 1961. This is the first one documented and I was able to get my hands on it and keep it in my personal collection. And so like you said to me, having these special pieces, especially in the context of my role is something that really inspires me, just having them around, like in the main every once in a while in between meetings and using them as just references for the things that we're doing in the custom job is something that I really cherish. Yeah, for me, like I couldn't afford a good guitar for years. And then I got some job landscaping and the first SG I got, of course, was because of Angus was called the SG. They made those walnut ones, the Les Paul and the SG. And then the following year, they called them fire brand where they branded into the headstock. They had these dirty finger pickups. They were, they were the cheap SG and Les Paul you could get cause they were trying to compete with like Seville and Memphis that were doing these Japanese copies. And I had it and I just fucking loved it. And now those are even kind of cool to me when I see them. I'm like, whoa, the SG, you know? Yeah, yeah, I know you're right. I forgot about those. Yeah, those are classic. My buddy just got one great from the mother. Somebody gave them the Les Paul and I was like, wow, man. And they're weird when you play them for a long time, the walnut starts to shine up in spots where your arm is. So that's really weird looking, you know? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. My love of Gibson, of course, starts way young when I'm a kid and all the big stars had him, Joe Perry. Of course, Jimmy Page being my all time God and Angus and you know, all of these guys were playing and that stuff was just all around in the music stores back before, you know, they were even vented. They were just, you know, oh, there's a Les Paul, cool, 250 and you bought it. You know, it's a whole different animal. Now, I'm not quite sure of your history of when you started. Did you used to work at Levi? Was that you? No, no, I came from a, so I came to Gibson through the ownership group. My background was 22 years of private equity, buying companies, maybe just to put it in simple words, just looking at companies that could be acquired to be turned around if they had gone themselves into trouble in some form or another or it was a good moment for a particular company to go into the next phase, maybe of growth or international expansion. That's been my background for 22 years. And but on the other hand, I've been a musician all my life. I started playing when I was 10 years old. I always wanted at Gibson and I couldn't afford it and until one day I could. And since then, you know, I could afford only one guitar and then over time, as I started working, I could buy my second guitar and like that I started putting together a collection. I played with multiple bands. I've recorded for other bands. I've made my instruments available to bands that are recording in the studios. Today I have about, and this is before joining Gibson, about 150 Gibson's or so in my collection, a lot of vintage stuff. It still gets used. It's been used in the studio. It's been used on stages here in Nashville. A lot of the musicians that I know, some of which you know, when they come to Nashville and they wanna play my personal collection guitars, they do, because that's the way these guitars were made to be played, right? Not to be sitting in a closet or in somebody's collection and be tucked away. So that's the way I think about it. And so now I get to put the two things together. I had met the prior owner of Gibson years ago in 2009 and I always stayed connected because I wanted to see Gibson succeed. To me, Gibson represented a cultural movement 130 years now of being part of sound and being a global sound, American sound, but global sound with the British players adopting it. And if you think about it being pretty much on every record since the beginning of recorded music by virtue of being 130 years old. So when the opportunity came to potentially be in a put together a group to end up taking over and acquiring the company, I jumped at it. To me, it was like a small window, a little probability of that happening. But to me, more than 0% of doing something with Gibson represented an opportunity. And so I jumped into it. I put together a group led by a big private equity company that is a majority shareholder called KKR that have been the most amazing stewards as shareholders of this business and what it represent for Americana history and so global music history. And that's how I came in to Gibson many years ago through the ownership group and have this incredible, incredible opportunity that I don't take for granted that is to put my business background together with my biggest fashion. Absolute number one biggest fashion which is not just music and guitars, but it's always being Gibson. So before you was the Levi guy, right? We had another CEO, JC. I was president, he was CEO and about, I wanna say six months ago, the board asked me to take over. Right, I saw that, I saw the announcement. Now during his regime, it seemed to be like Gibson was a little lost for a little bit where they were like getting into all kinds of stuff like DJ equipment and different stuff like that. And it kind of looked like they were getting away from the guitar for a minute, am I right on that? Yeah, that was, as I mentioned, the prior ownership group, the individuals that owned it before had gone into consumer audio, let's call it, consumer electronics and consumer audio. And that's what led to sort of my hypothesis that maybe there's an opportunity here. There might be an opportunity here because they're losing focus on what makes Gibson and Gibson, which is making the best guitars you've ever made. And maybe that's gonna lead to mistakes being made that can lead to us taking over the company. That was my hypothesis originally and that's how this came to be. Man, it's such a wild story. It's a lot like Harley-Davidson. When you look at the history of Harley-Davidson, the U.S. company, they're strong. They win the World War II contract. Indian doesn't, Indian goes away. They're kicking ass for a long time. Then they sell to AMF. They don't care about Harley. It slowly starts to go into the dirt and then rises out when the employees buy it and just ups and downs. And it's also ups and downs of trends. People riding motorcycles because the gas was too high and then they stop riding because they think they're dangerous. It's a lot like that with Gibson where you think about the 80s era where Les Pauls were like three, four pieces of wood. They were a hundred pounds. There was no more nitrocelluloids. There was just bad wiring, all of that stuff. And it all comes down to the mighty high dollar. But once you get somebody in there with some passion and knowledge of the history, then it really starts to turn around. And also a little thing called COVID which blasted guitar sales through the roof. Well, that's the other thing that you just mentioned which is in addition to the ups and downs and the different strategies that maybe owners have pursued over time, you can always go back to what we called our golden era which is really our second golden era which was well in 1948 to 1968 under the leadership of Ted McCarty. Something that I studied since I was in my teenage years when I got so interested in everything that Gibson had done in history. And so when you start looking at that that playbook has been written. I don't have to reinvent it. And so the ups and downs since then with different ownership groups but ultimately that is a great playbook to what we need to be doing going forward, which, and now we have an extra level of complexity which is what happened during that golden era was so important that really defined us. But at the same time, we need to think about what do we, how do we need to take innovation going forward? And that's why we have the Gibson Lab. Like what are we going to do to one, pay tribute to our golden era? Like you said, all the 59s and all the classic stuff that today is highly collectible. How do we pay tribute to that? Well, at the same time, these two words of our future so that, and this is something that I find is critical so that the best years are ahead of us and not behind us. And that is something we look at constantly and we're always focused on how are we gonna make, how are we going to make it very compelling, entertaining and interesting for people to make music, to pick up a guitar, learn how to play and write music, write or record music. And during the, there's periods that I see looking back where it was the first war, the second war, we've got, we recently had the COVID episode where a lot of musicians were created because people were in secluded areas, they were home, they were in protected areas. And there were a lot of musicians that came out of those situations. We have a lot of musicians that came out of COVID. It's our responsibility to make sure they stay musicians. Let me ask you this, I was around when the first Murphy's started to come out. You know, of course, Fender comes out with the Fender Relic, the No Caster and the Strat and it explodes. And then Murphy kind of floats around and you know, I'm not even quite sure what the word is because it was such a myth, but it was like, these are gonna be 50 of these 59s that Murphy's going to make in age. I think it was right around 1996. I bought my first one. I went down to San Diego to the music store down there and bought this Murphy pod, but believe it was probably 7,500 bucks at the time, which was a lot of money. And then that, you know, those were hand-aged with the razor blade and just the old school, but really cool early era. Then Murphy leaves, comes back, leaves, comes back. Once you come into the fold, is it your idea to create this Murphy lab and do you call them up and say, hey, do you wanna come back and we'll give you your own place? Yeah, that's a great question, Dean. Yes, one day, Tom shows up in my office with a brown case. It's an original Lifton case. And I open up the case, I look at this guitar and I'm immediately, whose burst is this and is it available? Because I wanted to buy, I immediately, I saw a 1959, made in 1959 Gibson, let's fall. And I asked Tom, who owns this? Who owns this? I want it, wanna buy it. And he says it's a new guitar. And that day, which was about four years ago, was when the light bulb went off and I told Tom after he walked me through how he did that, which is taking 30 years of experience and putting it all into the most incredible, historic and accurate way of aging to work, I said to Tom, Tom, I'm gonna build your lab. And he's like, what the fuck are you talking about? I was like, I'm gonna build your lab. It's gonna be called a Murphy lab and you're gonna run it. And it's gonna be a physical place. We're gonna build it inside the custom shop. And I was just riffing at the time. I was imagining you were jamming and I don't know where this is going, but I'm just, things are coming to me. And I said, Tom, we're gonna build you a lab. It's gonna be called a Murphy lab. In this lab, we're gonna have math scientists that you're gonna train and you're gonna do this way of making age, this way of aging is the technique that you're going to do in the new Murphy lab. And he's like, yeah, whatever. And we did it. And so if you get a chance to, well, you were there with him, Pume. So he might have told you a little bit of part of the story when you saw him, but now we have the Murphy lab. It's been a couple of years in existence. It's a physical place inside of the custom shop that requires an extra set of credentials to go in because it's straight secret. And the Murphy lab is run by Tom Murphy full time with a group of math scientists that are looking at original examples. They have all of my collection always available. They have photographs of my entire collection of the Golden Era gipsons. And we scan and we photograph everybody's originals that come through. Recently, I had Billy Givens here and we scanned and photographed early gates for the lab. And so we keep all these references and we have in the lab, did you go inside the lab? Yes, yes, I saw. You saw the guitar references that they have, right, all of which are numbered and they have those visual references for the different levels of aging now. And so it's been one of the most amazing experiences for me to be able to do that. And also because I think not only Tom deserves it as an individual, but I think the name needs to be in the Gibson history books. And so as Tom over the next couple of years starts considering retirement, the name Murphy and the name Tom Murphy and the Murphy lab will live forever. When you sat down and talked to him about the history of Murphy, did you get into it with him? Because early on in the early 90s, there's those Murphy painted and people wanted the Murphy painted. And then at one point, they do a run of these first Murphy-aged Les Pauls. That's the one of them that I got. And then they stopped doing them for a little while because he quit or whatever, but were you able to go back and look at the history of Murphy? Okay, he starts here, he starts painting here and then aged here? A hundred percent, in fact, all the way back to the first ever 59 replica that him and Keith Medley, who's still with us, is one of our master Luthiers, they did together. And actually that guitar, I don't know if you saw it, it's a piece of whitewood that is sitting next to Tom's desk, aging desk. That's the original 1993 59 replica, the most accurate at the time that we Gibson had ever done. And so yeah, all the way back to that, all the way through the history of the different things that we've done. And by the way, I have some, I have several Murphy's in my collection as well from all different periods of time. And so I think again, like I said, all of that was incredibly important one to know where we came from in terms of aging and sort of draw inspiration from all of that and learnings so that we can do the best that we've ever made and put our best foot forward with all that experience and collective experience. Tom, Keith Medley, Jim DeCola, and a couple of our other Luthiers like Doc Culberson and Matt Klein, these guys have been with us for 30 to 40 years. And so when you put all that experience together, it gives us a pretty unique perspective for the Murphy Lab that all I needed to do, all really I needed to do was to recognize that. My only achievement was recognizing that and enabling this group of people to create the Murphy Lab under the leadership of Tom and then just step out of their way. Yeah, it's interesting to talk to Tom and play a lot of the, not a lot, but I played about 10, 59s over my time, a lot of them over at Bon Amos's house and then of course the greenie and stuff and to really talk to Tom and then see the scans of multiple, multiple 59s up there on the wall. The big, I think, armchair battle on the internet always is the cut of the dish. Is it deeper? How come these are flat? And once I really talk to people and talk to Murphy and other owners, you realize different people were cutting those tops. Some guys cut them deeper to where it looked almost like a skateboard bowl and some people it's almost flat. And that seems to be the biggest battle over is a reissue look just like. I'm not talking about sound. I'm talking right when you see it. Is it got the dish? Everybody, you know, you tilt it, you look at it this way. But once I talk to these guys, I realized it's a lot like Japanese denim or Japanese leather jackets. This guy over here cuts them this way. This guy cuts them that way. And at the end of the day, they're signed and you got, well, this guy did deep dish and the other people didn't, you know? Yeah, totally. Look, I see when I look at all those comments, it's funny, right? To see them because as an owner of both Lanera Vintage Les Pauls from all the different years, I have guitars from every year since the Les Paul got released in 1952. Including several gold tops, 57s and 58s and I have several 59s and they're all different. Every single one has a different top, different carve top. And it's the result of guitars being made by hand and not having a robot just sand the top down and move it to the next phase. We still do that today. We put them under built sanders. I'm right now building a Les Paul. Every Friday morning I go to our factory and it's been now maybe five or six Fridays for this one that I'm building now. And the most, most involved day was two weeks ago when I was here before, maybe two weeks before going on a power trip where I was actually working on that part and sanding down the carved top, putting it under the belt sander and then doing it a little bit by hand. And you realize how that element of handmade makes every single one different. And so as the collector and as an owner of originals and Murphy's, it really all depends from the ones that we're making today. What reference we're using is it a particular one like if we do Gemini, we did Greeny, we're doing pearly gates, then we'll do exactly that one. But otherwise, if it's a 59 spec, let's say Custom Shop could be Murphy or not, we're using a reference from the scans and we're using an average from all of the scans that we have of 59s. And so the reality is that a lot of, a lot of these are expensive instruments. And so I completely understand people having perspectives without having ever played one. And that is because they're passionate. I take that. I'll take that people that wanna engage and comment and feel passionate about it over disinterested people. And even if you've never played a 59 and you're passionate enough to put on a comment and have an opinion, I'll take that. Yeah, absolutely. Because if they're not talking, then you're done, you know? And you're done. It's always the famous thing that Mitzi Shor at the Comedy Store said, you want half the people to hate you and half to love you because then they're always talking about you, you know? Yeah, exactly. It's the same thing with the SG's. The other, this is the first SG, the first SG we've ever made. And it's July of 1960. This guitar doesn't come out until 1961 under the name Les Paul. And the horns on this one is a 101. It's, we've never, we changed it a little bit afterwards. The block here gets smaller and then it says Les Paul later. There's a lot of anomalies with this guitar but because it's the first one and we were experimenting. We didn't then stash this in a closet. This guitar sold. Wow. That's why I have it. This guitar then was sold in 1961. So every, I have guitars, SG shaped guitars from 61, 62, 63, of my 64 here as well. They're all different, every single one. So which one are you talking about when you say the horns are right or they're wrong because they're right on some spec and that might be different from another year. But like I said, I think I love the fact that we've got music fans, guitarists and passionate people that want to talk about this because it keeps us relevant. When you start getting together with some of the celebrity players, let's say Slash, let's say Billy Gibbons, Adam from Tool, these guys and you're talking to them about maybe doing collabs, Kirk Hammett, Greeny. When you're really digging in with them, what is most of the players, what is their concern? Like I want this, I've been always looking for this type because to me, I'm totally different. My ultimate is a Flyway 59, something that weighs right under seven pounds or at seven pounds with kind of that, Joe Perry tobacco with the worn out volume swell. That's to me, you know what I'm saying? But these guys are playing every day out on tour and stuff. What were their thoughts and concerns with you? Like here's what I'm looking for. It's, you know, it's a, that's probably the best question that you could have asked me. It is different. Every, that's the beautiful thing about working with all of them is to understand what they are looking for and spend time with them to get it to the point where we can understand exactly what they are after so that we can go get it as opposed to us asking them to play what we're making. And that I think is, I mean, I take that very seriously. And if you talk to any of those guys, I think they'll say the same thing, which is take Adam for example, with Adam, he has a very unique sound. And so first and foremost is looking for the sound. Second, he wants the heaviest guitars that we can possibly or humanly make. And so we have to source the heaviest maple and the heaviest mahogany that we can find around the world. We go scouting to find the heaviest woods that we can find for him. And that's because he's used to playing those 79 silver bursts. And he truly believes that it has an effect. And if it is true, it does affect sound. So in his mind, the weight, the finish, the metallic finish and then the way the guitar is built and the electronics, the profile of the neck, all the specs that make the guitar right in his hands. Is what we're always chasing. And we've got a good formula with him having developed the first, a couple of years ago, the first 79 silver burst and then from there, everything we've done with the Adam Jones collection is always preserving that Adam DNA of what he's looking for. With Billy Gibbons, he's looking for the lightest, like you, he's looking for seven pounds, which for which we need weight relief. He's looking for that, those features. And it's always, you know, the thinner necks, even thinner necks than early gates. So he's looking for that comfort and that ease and that light weight. And he's always willing to experiment with finishes. We just made a less ball, a super light weight, less ball for him. We sourced paint from a custom painter, like the paints, custom paints, cars. It's a body shop that he's used in the context of his car collection. And we sourced a particular paint from them that is a transitional paint. So when Billy is in certain position, the guitar looks black and he starts moving, he starts, it starts turning more burgundy and then it's all the way to a metallic red. And so it depends on lighting and it depends on how you're seeing the guitar. And he is very progressive when it comes to his thoughts about that and looking at different pickups and different sounds and different paint finishes. And he's always experimenting. You see that what he's done always with shapes and the headstocks. And he's always been like that. And what I love about him is that he hasn't changed. Yeah, he's a superstar, man. I witnessed him play a piece of plastic and it sounded just like Billy Gibbons, you know? Yeah. Some of those guitars he played in the past, the Gretches, those toy guitars, the weird, you know, Furman amps or whatever those little pedals and just whatever he had, he just came on and it was just, you know, exact tone of just got paid. Yeah, it's all in the hands, man. It's fucking hot. It's in his fingers, right? And he uses sevens, so for lightweight strings. Wow. So all of it basically goes to create a sound. Slash is the most stoked guy. And I would say Kirk Hammett there too. Those two guys who become dear friends, they are stoked about talking about guitars. We've been spent hours talking about guitars and they'll see something on their feet and send it to me and say, what is this? This is amazing. This is the most amazing flametop I've seen in a while and they get excited. And that is amazing to me because I get excited. It doesn't get old to me who I am in our factories on a regular basis. I'm there every week, I'm looking at guitars, I'm looking at tops. I cannot help myself photographing guitars. I post sometimes the things that I'm seeing in the factory just to get it, people like to see that but Kirk and Slash are into it. And there I was talking to Slash texting back and forth this week about a flametop that I posted and he said, this just came out on my feed and it's one of the most beautiful flametops I've seen in a long time. And I told him, it's so amazing that you still get excited. He said after so many less falls that he's seen in his lifetime, that he still gets excited. And he's always excited about guitars and to talk about guitars and so is Kirk. And we'll nerd out four hours on Zoom or while we're in person or on the phone. And they are real guitar nerds in the fan sense of the word. And so Kirk will see something and say, please send it to me. He'll just buy, he's always buying guitars. And so Slash, we're always making three or four new guitars for Slash. There's always something being made for those two guys. They're permanently stoked. And Slash always wants a particular neck profile which is more like a 58 style neck. He likes flametops. He likes, actually he likes experimenting with woods. I recently talking to him say, well, why don't we try to make something that's all Corina? Why don't we try to make something that's a maple top but we replace the mahogany with African mahogany which is Corina or that is so always looking and experimenting and testing. And he's always got a project going. Also, if you think about it, Slash when he's now with guns and roses, he's on with the conspirators. If he's not with his conspirators he's doing this blues project and he's always doing. And so there's always reasons for him to be testing guitars. And I love that about him. He's one of the biggest guitar gods and heroes to ever live. And he's still excited to talk about guitars. He would be talking about guitars with us right now. Oh yeah, I mean, I'm the same way. I'm a shitty player, but I'm obsessed with guitars, watches and mid-century homes, you know? And it all comes down to design. That's really what it is. It's just all about the aesthetics and the beauty of design. When you look at a lot of the Gibson's, it's the design that knocks me out. A Corina V, a Corina Explorer. That shit to be made in 58, so far ahead of time and I look at what's going on in that period of automobiles and homes with mid-centuries and Neutras and Frank Lloyd Wrights and everything. And those guitars, to me, just seemed right in place when they showed them at the, you know, whatever it was, at the World Fair or whatever it was. You know, you look at those and you go, you know, people go like, whoa, those are so radical. And it's like, well, the cars were radical with the fins and the homes were radical and the skyscrapers were radical, you know? The Empire State Building's radical. People were taking chances back then, you know? Totally, and the bees and explorers that we designed between 1956 and 1957 and get released in 1958. Kirk has two. I know. Kirk has the 57 prototype of the Flying Bee. There are two 57 prototypes, Kirk has one and then he's got a 58 and he's got a 58 Explorer and James has a 58 Explorer. And those guitars were way out of the trunk to the point where they weren't, they really didn't work. Right, right. And then they become really popular later. But I think these shapes have become culturally important pieces of art that are instantly recognizable. And that places a massive amount of responsibility on, for me, I take that personal to continue this legacy. And like I said, just make sure that our best years are ahead of us so that these shapes and everything that was done by Gibson over 130 years of history were using to make and create that set of circumstances for the next 100 years. We won't be around, but we will, if anything, if I am remembered as somebody that worked to put together a right set of circumstances for Gibson to be relevant for the next 100 years, that is massive amount of success. Let me ask you a question here that I've, it's been digging in my head for a while and I'm not sure if you know the answer. Jimmy Page being to me, the absolute King of all Kings of Les Paul, I really love guys, Billy Gibbons up until a point, guys where they said, that's my guitar over there. I have that one and then I have number two in case of string breaks. But Jimmy Page is absolutely the Les Paul King and I think it was two years ago, they had the guitar collection in the Met New York and I went and looked at that. I don't know if you went, but I looked at that Les Paul for a long time that was in the case and I just don't believe that that was Jimmy's one. I think it was a replica and I mean, I looked at the flame over and over. Do you know yourself or is that a secret or what's going on there? You know, I'm not going to avoid answering the question and the answer is I don't know if it was a replica that was at the play and loud exhibition at the Met. I don't recall if it was the originals or were replicas. I spent time with Jimmy and I've had number one, number two, number three, a double neck. I've had them in my hand sitting with him. And I think that was probably one of the most insane out of body experiences that I've ever had because like you said, he's the Les Paul King, right? He's the one that made the Les Paul what it is. And you know, when you ask slash, he says Jimmy Page. Yeah. And even if you ask Billy and kind of even they kind of overlapped in the same era, he will say the same thing. And just seeing those instruments, number one, number two, number three, number three is the one that was refinished and that candy up over read. Yeah. I've only had two red ones and it seems to be a mystery. There's an early red one that kind of goes away and then the candy up over read changes around 77. He buys the number three already refinished. Right. It's actually, I can't remember now. It's a 68 or a 69 Les Paul. We have everything documented. I just don't remember now. And but number one and number two, if you go back to your original statement, those two guitars defined however many decades and I don't think that's ever gonna stop. It's gonna be an influence in music that I think and I hope continues to live forever. I get excited when I see young kids learning Led Zeppelin riffs, learning anything from Metallica to Guns and Roses but Metallica and Guns and Roses are still touring which has got a chance to see them. But when I see young kids, my 14 year old when he was 11 or 12 years old learning Led Zeppelin riffs and I see other kids, those that are in that age bracket that are learning Led Zeppelin riffs. It almost gives me goosebumps to even talk about it because it's the most rewarding experience that I've had seeing the young generation of players wanting to play like Jimmy Page. Yeah. Let me ask you this. There was the jimmies that came out and I guess was it what? Late 90s, early 2000s that had the switches under the pickguard and then you did a jimmy a few years back. I'm correct on that, right? Yeah, there were a custom shop reissues of his. Yeah, he's got those mods where he's got the switches under the pickguard. Yeah, those were done, I want to say about 20 years ago or so maybe 15 years ago, but they were done without scouts. Right. They were done with manual measurements. They are amazing instruments. I've played them. They're really wonderful, insane. In the future, if we ever do something with him we've got everything scant. Wow, wow. Now let's get into a little bit about what happened with the Tower Records building. At one point you guys bought that, am I right? You were gonna make that kind of a spot where the celebrity players could come in. You could do kind of showcases and film and stuff. Am I right on that? And then COVID hit and it kind of just sat there. Well, that was before, so you're right. When we ended up doing the acquisition of the company, let's say, just to call it as a moment in time, right? Just think about mid-2018, let's call it that, the acquisition period where we come over. Gibson owned the Tower Records lease in LA. And that was prior owner had done, had taken over that lease. And the intention was to make it like a private performing area, showcase area, in addition to having in LA what we still have today, which is the private showroom which is for artists and sort of friends where they can go rehearse, they can go create content. We do a lot of Gibson TV content there. It's basically a combination of our office space and studio. And when we took over the company, we realized owning and operating a venue was not our strength. And again, just think about losing focus and all the things you can start saying yes to. I think one of the most important things that we always need to be doing is learn what to say no to so that we can say yes to the things that really matter. And the things that really matter to us is making the best guitars we've ever made in our history, making the best amplifiers we've made in the history of basic boogie, taking care of our people who are our best assets, our craftsmen and women and the fact that. And so at the time we decided, you know what? It's a really sexy thing if we did that. But what do we need to say no to so that we can say yes to the things that really matter to us? And that was one. So we let go of that base. Yeah, cutting the fat basically, you know? Yeah, I mean, there are partners that what they do, their core competency is to run venues. Well, great, right? Somebody should do that and we can partner, we partner with so many of them around the world. We need to focus on making the best guitars we've ever made, have the best relationships with our artists around the world and take care of our people so that we can continue this tradition of hand-making American-made instruments that can then take a journey around the world so that people can use them to create music forever. And that is what we always need to think about. And there's so many distractions, right? There are so many things that are interesting and intriguing that we wish I could do that, but come back to what is the core of our strategy. And then you realize when you do that and take a reset, let's bring it back home. I was around Boogie in the early 80s. My guitar player worked at the factory. I was there 80, one, two, three, four, you know, around Randall, Doug West, all those guys. And it's really interesting to me. I don't think that Randall gets the glory that he should. Him, I would say he's probably the original Boutique amp builder, and then you got Dumbled. But, you know, nobody was doing what Randi was doing back then, you had Marshall, you had Fender, you had PV. This guy is in Petaluma in a fucking warehouse whipping up these combo amps and eventually creating what would be known as Metallica's full blown triple rectifier, that whole tone of crunch. It became the thrash metal crunch from Santana and Keith Richards to Metallica and Exodus and all those guys. It's wild. Totally, man. I mean, I'm glad you're going there because Randi, who's still with us, by the way, he's still working and designing amplifiers. So is Doug West, who you mentioned. So is Jim Aschow and Steve Mueller and John Marshall, who played, if you think about John Marshall, he's been with us for 26 or 27 years at Mesa Boogie and he's the only guy who's toured with Metallica by replacing James in the Master of Puppets tour when he had the skateboard accident and during the Black Album Tour when he got burned. John is still with us. In fact, I have here, you don't see it, I have here a triple rectifier that John just made for me that I'm testing. It's all handwritten. All the controls are handwritten by him. It's a new triple rectifier that I'm testing. And so you think about, there's an amazing story that Randi always tells me. I, poor guy always asked him to tell me a story, even though I heard it a hundred times. I just love it so much. He goes, he files for a patent on a design in fact, you know, 40 years ago. And the guy in the pad, the engineer in the patent office calls him up and says, may I speak with Randall Smith? He says, speaking. Well, sir, I wanted to, that you know that your drawing has a mistake in it. And Iranians are, what's the problem? Well, the way that you've designed the circuit board in this wiring diagram, you're gonna have a problem with this amplifier. It's going to distort. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. That's fucking funny. And I love that story because that was the whole point, obviously, Randi filed for something that he could, he figured out would create gain and would overdrive it in this engineering, the patent office, calls Randi saying, sir, this is gonna overdrive. There's a mistake here. And Randi is the guy who created gain. Man. People don't know that, but he's the guy who created gain. He's the first one who files for a patent of an amplifier with gain. And then everybody else adopts it. So from then, the story then, you know, when Kirk and James go to the factory and then they start testing the Mark II C plus and they take the end up, they both end up taking one each. James ends up loving Kirk's more than ever and that becomes the crunchberry that we all know. Right. So that became the crunchberry, but it's a modified, it's a C plus plus. So instead of the two C plus, there's an extra mod on gain, which is very simple to do. That becomes the sound of mustard puppets onwards. Right. And so that defined, like you just said, it's just defined thrash metal and all the guys in the Bay Area start using it. And it became the sound. Right. And so- It's just as important as the JCM and the Plexi. It's in the line. You go Plexi, JCM, triple rectifier. I mean, that's the history, right? And that's not even a triple. That's a, that is a Mark II C plus plus. Right. The triple rectifier comes after that or around the same time, they're developing the rectifier, the dual rectifier and then the triple rectifier. And that became the sound of, I guess it became the sound of the nineties, the eighties and nineties, the eighties was with the C plus plus. Even all the way to back to where it all got started, Randy was modifying amps, for example, for Santana. And that's how the whole thing started where he builds an amplifier from scratch. That became the Mark I for Carlos. We have that amplifier here in our vault, that first one. And that's when Carlos hears, it's 150 Watts by the way, it's a 150 watt combo. And Carlos listens to that sound and he immediately says to Randy, this thing has the boogie. And at the time the company, Randy had filed it as M-E-S-A. And it became Mesa boogie after Carlos says this thing has the boogie. That's how the name Mesa boogie comes to be. Keith Richards listens to that amplifier when they invite in 1977, the Stones invite Carlos to sitting with them at the Madison Square Garden. Carlos takes that amplifier with him and gets in a taxi with Bob Dylan. The two of them get in a cab. They put the amplifier in the middle between them and they head to the garden. Carlos shows up with that thing with ways that got taught. It's a little amplifier, it's 150 Watts, the transformer is heavy. They plug that in and Keith looks at him and says, Randy tells the story, he always said, I wasn't there. He says, Keith, what are you doing with this little thing? We're playing the garden. Sorry, Carlos, what are you doing with this thing? And Carlos says, Keith, just wait. And they soundcheck and he hits the note and the thing sustains throughout the garden and soundcheck for so long that after that session and the soundcheck session, they go backstage, they call Randy. And that's when the Stones, that's when Keith starts using and places the first order of Mesa boogies. And then imagine Keith, he just rolls over and he's like, hey, mate, at times tough, you can't afford a real amp. I could buy you one, man. You know, I could buy a real amp, get that fucking thing backstage where it belongs. It's a practice amp. He was laughing at Carlos saying, what are you doing with this little thing here? We're playing the garden. And then when Carlos plays 150 Watts and the sustain of that amplifier blew his mind. It was absolutely blew his mind. Do you think it's a risky purchase in this world now of what's really happening with the fractals and the line sixes and also the world of clubs when you play a club and the sound man just says, he keeps saying, turn down, turn down, turn down. And the traveling musicians that are doing fly-ins, do you think people in five years from now are still going to be buying actual tube amps other than studio usage? Well, that's a great question. I think there's two things there with your question. One is there's a certain amount of sound, DNA and IP with Mesa Boogie that we have, that we work with all of these companies that you just mentioned, right? Whether it's Neural or Fractal or anyone that is looking at the Mesa Boogie sounds and wants to use them, we welcome that. And we work with all of them. We have a great partnership with IK Multimedia. They have so many of our plugins, Mesa Boogie plugins that you can download. Same is the case with Neural and other companies that that is something that by virtue of owning Mesa Boogie, we're going to be able to continue to do and work with all of these digital platforms and profilers that want to use the Mesa Boogie sounds, whether it's the actual amp heads and the actual amplifiers, but also the cabs because the cabs are as famous for Mesa Boogie as our amps. And so that's in a way something that de-risks to answer your question, de-risks it because we actively work with all of them and they license our sounds. And then our sounds, we are not a volume, we're not making them in volume, like you said, it's more a boutique. I think about Mesa Boogie more as our custom shop. It's similar to our Gibson custom shop, what we do at Mesa Boogie. And so it's a smaller business. And I think my experience has been that it continues to be highly relevant that a lot of musicians, including young musicians are now exploring where did this sound come from? They're hearing profiled and sounds and plugins and downloads. And there's always a percentage of those musicians that have that intellectual and musical curiosity to say, where did this come from? Because I'm liking what I'm hearing, where's the original sound? And we are seeing they're going to amplifiers. Maybe when they tour, then they create their own profiles and they download them into their quad cortexes and the new IK media sonics and the practice and the campers, but they are continuing to explore with amplifiers. Our artists continue to want to explore with amplifiers. And I think that that's continuing to feed the search for this tube sound, what same time the tube sound expands exponentially around the world in many ways, thanks to IK multimedia neural fractal camper that make those sounds available to everybody. I mean, I'm 57, I don't know how old you are, but I've seen it all comes around. It's just like, you know, vinyl's out, the CD's in, now vinyl's back, you know, we go back to amps, then it was solid state, then it was rock bands, then it was back to combos and boutiques, matchless Mark Sampson explodes that market. You get into the divided by 13s and that whole thing was going on and Dumble. And then now we're at the fractal and stuff. And a lot of that has to do with the practicality of flying around. And as Kirk said on my podcast, you know, also has to do with different wattages and biases and traveling and the amps just getting beat up and all that. So we've seen it come and go. And, you know, five years from now, people will be like, you know, fuck all that. I just want an amps up here, you know? So... I think it's depends on the level of touring as well. I think the, for a band like Metallica, it just makes sense. If you think about the different rooms they play, whether it's could be a stadium or a big arena, and being able to have that consistency of sound beyond the logistical part of it and potentially damaging it, because obviously everything can be fixed and replaced. There's a space constraint and then there's a room element for the sound that they want to deliver to have that consistency. And so when you look at, and you've been to Metallica HQ when you look at what they have in the room and how they're profiling, it all is ultimately coming from the real amplifiers. And so I actually welcome that because they are making the sound available and there's all these people out there listening to the Metallica sound and wanting to find out where did it come from. And so they ended up finding their way back to Mesa Boogie. So it's actually a really beneficial thing that we have these digital modules where you can profile and it's so easy to profile. It's so intuitive now, especially with the ones that I've used now, IK and Neural, it's just so easy to use. It's basically like a touchpad, right? It's a touchscreen. And so it's just making it available and we work with them and they are our partners. And so when you're using those platforms, you're downloading the Mesa Boogie plugins. So to me, that is a win-win. Yeah, and I wanna explain to people that are not deep gear nerds, basically, these are digital types of amplifiers to where they can sample, say, the sound of Master of Puppets record. So Metallica can go back and forth in the blackout. Here's the sad but true amp. Here's the disposable heroes amp. Here's Trapped Under Ice and with a flick of the button, they have all those sounds in one night while you're seeing them. And it's pretty interesting to see. I do think, and I've been on stage when these bands are using them, I do miss the air movement. There's something about tube amps and also the squishiness when you hit it, like a kabal, you know, the way it goes through the tube amps, it comes out of the speakers. I do miss that throw. Yeah. Yeah, look, I mean, so do I, and when I see they play smaller venues when they do these smaller shows that give them the ability to bring amplifiers, you see them use amplifiers, right? And so they're always wanting to go make the most of opportunities where they can, right? I've played with Kirk and Rob in the wedding band. We use amplifiers. Yeah, we use the amplifiers. Yeah. And so whenever we can, whenever they can, they use them. But like I said, I mean, these profilers are amazing because you just explained each sound for each song can be already profiled and delivered to the audience in a way that can be replicated everywhere in the world. And look, we're early on in it, five years from now. It's going to be so mind boggling that you're just going to be like, yeah, I mean, I have these digital streaming speakers from DFL. What are they? DFL, I forget the name, they're from France. And they're so insane, you know, like I've closed my eyes for a week straight before vinyl and streaming. And I was like, all right, this is great, you know. And so everything's just, it just gets better and better and better. And also in a world of me wanting to be a minimalist, a fractal or something like that, it's just genius. You don't have a household gear anymore, you know. Yeah, yeah. And by virtue of being able to profile your amplifier, say I have my rig, right? And I have this triple rectifier and my mark seven. And I like the two working together. I can profile that and take that sound of those two amplifiers working together. And that could be one of my sounds. And so that's really, that's really amazing. And for us as Gibson and Mesa Boogie and having the Mesa Boogie sounds that everybody wants to use gives us the advantage because we can then showcase our sounds through those platforms to everyone around the world. Now, we just came back from PowerTrip and you see Metallica using Profilers, like they use and they're known. And right before Metallica Tool was playing amplifiers. Yeah, with diesels and a Marshall up there. Right, and so he had the diesel, he had the Marshall, he had the triple rec. He was going through Mesa cabs and a Marshall cab. You got Justin that was playing his Ampex. He was actually playing through Mesa Boogie cabs. So you got one band with one formula and then the next band had a different formula and they both sounded epic. It was an amazing experience. Absolutely, there was no, I'll tell you, live sound and bands, the gear and the live sound have finally kind of caught up to each other and then the video visuals. Concerts right now are such a mind-boggling experience whether it be the sphere happening with YouTube. I'm looking forward to bands like Tool going in there and doing a residency for like five, six days and having theme graphics up there. Like it's the concert world and like I said, the equipment is just getting insane. Yeah, that's the first thing I thought. It's funny you say that when I saw the footage of you two at the sphere, my first thought was I wanna see Tool in there. Obviously I would have loved to seen Bing Floyd in there. I imagine a band like Tool playing the sphere where there's no, with Tool, you never see the cameras pointing at the individuals, right? It's always a show as much as it is the show of what they do live. It's also the video show they put on, the live show, content, the artwork. So it was actually my first thought after I saw the footage is like, I wanna see Tool in there. Same here, same here. Can you tell me, did you guys track down those Adam Jones, Les Pauls that got stolen from the truck at the truck stop? A few of them we ended up being able to get back. We, the work, we still engaged with them and had, you know, we got to work with the FBI on that. So there's not a lot I can say about it, but it was a really interesting situation. You know, a really negative circumstance that became something that people talked about so much that it almost elevated the story. And he gave us, yeah, he gave us the opportunity to obviously made them and in talking to Adam, I was like, Adam, we should do something really cool because we got to remake 13 guitars and these guitars, we could make them to be the most special ones in the run because we can put an identifier on them. And so knowing, you know, Tool and Adam writes, they write a lot in seven, you know, the anchor time signature is seven. So those guitars we made with the same serial numbers, but we added a dot seven at the end. Wow, wow, wow. Let me ask you this. My favorite Angus SG is the back and black one. Now that's a, over the years, it's been modified a zillion times. It was a three pickup custom. It was walnut one time, I believe with gold hardware. They stripped it, pulled the middle one out, put that full batwing on, which is just beautiful. And there it is. It's the classic Angus inside the back and black where he's sweating and you're seeing that guitar. And even on the gear rundown, when the guy goes, here it is, the holy grail. Look, I just got goosebumps, dude. Me too. It fucks with me so hard that guitar. He only played it like two songs at Power Trip, which I was kind of bummed on. That thing, is there any plans to do an identical replica of that guitar? Cause I was at the factory and they were like, what's your dream guitar? And I said, well, the Joe Perry and then the Angus back in black. Look, we are working with Actively with Angus right now. They were rehearsing in LA and my team was there before Power Trip. And all I can tell you is that he's engaged. You did do, that Gibson did do the one with the lightning bolts years back, but it was the small pickguard and it's not the back and black one, man. That is the one for everyone. I mean, every guitar nerd, I guarantee, if you went to Kirk Hammond and you went, we're doing the back and black one, he goes, oh dude, I want two. Yeah. No, I mean, it's one of those things that I get all the time and you're talking about one of the most iconic guitars in guitar history and Angus has been hard to pin down and but we're actively talking and he's been amazing. So we'll see if it leads to us doing it. We would love that. Obviously know that from my perspective, I think as a tribute to him and to making that available to all us, fan freaks around the world, that would be epic. And there's other instruments that are like that, right? I mean, that it really is a matter of finding the right time with the artist. We don't like pursuing and pressuring. We like developing organic relationships. You know, in the years that I've been friends with Kirk, for example, I never asked him once. He told me, hey, I'm ready to start working on something together. And so that's the approach is playing the long game and working with artists in a way that is organic without ever trying to force them into something that they might not be ready to do. And so sometimes we have to be patient. Yeah. Well, I can't thank you enough for talking to me. And, you know, I was out at the factory a year ago today, this week actually, because I was on tour with Marcus King. We were at the Ryman and we were there two days. So I had a daytime to get over there. And it was great to finally meet Tom Murphy. I, you know, owned one of the early Murphy's. I sold it to move to LA years ago and I miss it more than anything, you know? And I don't even really remember the serial number. It was so long ago, you know, but I'm fascinated by Gibson's. I've looked at them, I played them, I've studied them since I was probably in fifth grade. And, you know, to be at the factory is, you know, it was a dream. And also to be part of some of the Gibson videos with Mark being able to shoot them about the troubadour or anything like that. And, you know, I interviewed Nikki Six at the LA office. And a lot of great history there. And, you know, bottom line is we all love guitars, whether it be... So you've become part of the Gibson family. And you're so into it. You have all these relationships with our team, with our artists that obviously you've become ingrained with us. And so we always welcome the opportunity to do things with you. And one of the coolest things that you've ever done, I think you've ever done was, who can say they did a tribute to ACDC, with Scotty and Nikki Six and Bill Burr on drums? That's a badass motherfucker. Yeah, yeah, we're gonna do it again in January if you want to come out. I want to come out because I love Scot. He's one of my favorite humans on the planet. Obviously I love you and I love ACDC. So, I mean, Scot, man, that guy has studied Malcolm's parts. He's amazing the way he made the tribute to Malcolm. You can sing, which is a virtue that very few have. And the band, when you guys put all that out, the footage was so amazing. In January, if you're doing it, I'm coming. Well, our dream is to get Slash and Kirk Hammett. We haven't had either of them. We've had all kind, I mean, you know, it's a rotating of who's who, man. Scotty in, you know, Scott from Rival Sons, who's fucking unreal. Amazing. Burr from Primus, who has his own SG's now, which is sick. And, you know, George Lynch has played. It's just numerous guys on the drums. Brad Wilk from Rage, Steve Gorman, who's one of the greatest drummers ever. So yeah, it's a thing I've been doing for many, many, many years. And it's my deep love of ACDC and comedy because we do comedy before the show. So it's, you know, comedy and then rock. There's nothing better than comedy and rock. That's a tour bus right there. You're laughing at me and you go play rock. That's it, that's it. And I was there when you did the 40th anniversary of Metallica, because that's when I played with the wedding band afterwards. And I think that's a perfect combination. If you do it in January, we would always reach out to Kirk and Slash and see if they're available. Slash just announced the tour with the conspirators that he can fit in at the beginning of the year. So depending on timing, let's see if we can make it happen. Because those guys, Slash is always around the lay when he's got downtime. And Kirk is always moving around. It will be so rad. Yeah, it's a dream to have those two guys on because, you know, this isn't some fucking throwaway party. This is full on like a rock concert, man. It is. Oh yeah. And we go out. If your viewers on the podcast haven't seen it, I encourage them to go check it out. It's awesome. It was great, man. It was great to talk to you and I always enjoy seeing you around out there. You love rock like myself. And thank you so much for doing the show and tell everybody where to find you on Instagram and all that. Yeah. And by the way, thank you for having me. I mean, you've interviewed everyone. So I don't even know why you wanted to review me but thank you nonetheless. And check us out on all the Gibson channels at Gibson Guitar around all social platforms. And me personal is at Quake Yen, which is my last name and I'm always trying to keep it interesting. Can you tell him a spell of that real quick for him? Yeah, it's G-U-E-I-K-I-A-N, which is my last name. And it's the handle on socials for the things that I try to do to keep it interesting and a little different. Also go to YouTube and you can see his entire collection. Mark Agnesi goes to his house and looks at his whole collection, including this ancient like 1928 Steinberg piano that got rebuilt, which is pretty cool. Oh yeah. I didn't really remember. Yeah. Gibson TV has a lot of cool stuff that we've done across icons and the process. So probably if you're interested in seeing how we make guitars, there's a whole season one of how we make electric guitars, the process. And we're now about halfway through on how we make acoustic guitars. Wow. Out there in Montana still? Yeah, still in Bozeman, Montana. Very cool. All right, thank you, man. Thanks for doing the show. There you guys go. Another episode of Let There Be Talk and all kinds of guitar talk there. Thank you for tuning in. Subscribe, leave a review on iTunes and YouTube. Thank you, brother. Thank you, Dean. See you, man.