 Welcome to the Monday, April 15th meeting of the Montpelier Design Review Committee. I will let members and staff introduce themselves. Martha Smirsky, member. Meredith Crandall, staff. Stephen Everett. Eric Gilbertson. Benjamin Cheney. Anybody who has not been here before, we are an advisory committee to the Development Review Board. We will listen to the applications from each of the applicants and move those forward to the Development Review Board. And do I hear a motion to approve our agenda tonight? All in favor of the agenda, raise your hand. The agenda is approved. Unless there are any other comments beforehand, we'll move to the, and I guess we'll pass the first application since nobody is here for 58th State Street, and we'll move to 158th Main Street, and if that's you, come forward and introduce yourself. Hi, I'm Lars Skengis, I'm with Arnold and Skengis Architects, and I'm the architect. Tell your name, first name, last name. L-A-Z-S-C-A-N-G-A-S. Okay, and you're representing Franklin Square. Yes. I have boards, but if we want to just talk about the drawings and what the scope of work is, however you would like me to do it. You brought the boards. Do you want to use them? Yeah. Yes. I think they took my stands away. Who can use the chair? I can use the chair. Yeah, I think we'll need to use the chair. I can use the chair. First question are the exterior renovations. Are the windows torn towards porches, railings, and mailboxes similar for all three buildings? Yes. They're basically exactly the same? We're matching what is there. So where we're replacing asphalt roof shingles, architectural shingles back, we're replacing wood windows, we're replacing wood windows, we're replacing clapboards and trim, we're replacing with matching what's there. But similar to on all three buildings? It's the same scope, it's really maintenance is really what it is. We're replacing basement access hatch, we're matching what's there, we're recording some brick, we're matching the joints of the structure. The reason that I was asking that is rather than go through, because we have to go through either each building separately, or if they're all similar we can do all three buildings as one lump go through. That would be great. Okay. Okay. So go ahead. This is 158 Main Street, and again, there's an existing architectural shingles roof that we're going to replace. We're doing some repointing to the brick, we're going to match the joints and the texture and the color. There's a couple of windows that we're going to replace, we're going to match, they're going to be wood windows, we're going to match the four over ones and all that. There's clapboards that were replaced, we're going to match the clapboards, there's trim we have to replace. The railing here is rotted, no longer support, we're going to detail it the same way and it's going to match what's there. Currently the porch is supported by iron pipes, we're going to put precast piers underneath to support it properly. The only thing that I can say that we're not going to match is we're going to put a pipe railing for a handrail on the building as you go down the stairs. There's a set of stairs that you see here, and we're going to put an inch and a half pipe rail and we're going to paint it. What was there before? Nothing. Nothing? Nothing. And violation of code. And then we're also going to add a screen door, and there's a cut sheet in your packet of the screen door, and it's the same screen door, we're going to use it in all three buildings. Print it out oddly, I think all you can see is a, that's all you can see for some reason. The original we got showed, but for some reason when it got photocopied, it's going to be white, we're not changing the color or anything, we're going to stay the same. Some buildings are going to be completely painted, some buildings we're just going to paint it, we're replacing because they've been recently painted. So that in a nutshell is 158. Real quick, what are these shaded areas showing us? The work. Where it's white, we're not touching it. So the shaded areas, so we're replacing that clapboard, we're replacing that trend, we're replacing a window, we're infilling an opening with brick, that's siding. We're replacing the bottom part of these window trends are rotted, so we're replacing those sections, so anywhere you see gray is work we're doing. And around this window here? Yep, and this is a corner board we're replacing, this is siding we're replacing. And this just happens to be for whatever reason, damaged siding? Yes. Yeah. And the same around the window, are you enlarging the window at all? Nope, nope, we're just here, it's... But this is the one I'm looking at. Oh, here? Yeah. We're just replacing clapboards in that area. And this is a generalization, I mean, it may be, but we're just showing the errors where we're replacing clapboards. And you're going to sort of not line all your joints in this bag? No, no, no, they're going to be too thin and all that stuff. What do you use for paint when you gather the repairs done? Sorry? What do you use for paint when you have the repairs done? We will use, I like to spec Benjamin Moore, so we'll use a Benjamin Moore primer, two finished coats of... I'm not sure if Benjamin Moore makes an equivalent, sure in Williams does, not that I'm selling in the brand, but they're, and I know that Abishan's carries any more, and they also have in the past, and they have a different one now, but they've had a primer called Med Dog. Yes, we've used that, but it isn't too bad, it isn't really that sort of... That it's been scraped 10,000 times and it has 4,000 layers on it, and you see all the alligator, it's not too bad here. What color are the buildings now? White. All three of them? All three of them. And that was what you intended? Yeah, yeah. As far as I know, we're not changing cod control, keeping them all the same. The only reason I mentioned that was we had problems with moisture areas that didn't seem to want a whole paint, and that for a coat of Med Dog, we don't have one flake on after eight years. I've used it on other projects, it's nice stuff, it's nice stuff. Any other questions before we go to 160? No, go right ahead. So this is 160 Main Street, it sits in between the street and 158. The same thing, we're doing some selective board replacement, some trim replacement. We're replacing the stairs, they're really rotted and just soft and they need to be replaced. We're also doing some frame and displacement, which is going to be underneath, you won't even see it, but we're sistering some 2x6s. Here we're replacing the basement access hatch, again selective trim replacement, selective railing replacement, and we're replacing selective windows. And then we're also adding again, metal pipe rail, which you can see here, and you can see... Top right, your left. Yes, right here. And we're also replacing this new post and the cap railing on the original porch frame in. The railing's all rotted out and the bottom of the post is rotted out, and we'll match what's there. What brand of windows do you use? I think we're going to look at Marvin, that's what I normally use for windows. But there's a mix, like at one, we're going to go with Wix, that's what we're taking out, but all the second floor are binding, because they've already been rotted, so we're going to keep what was there, so we're replacing. Out of the purview of our group, but are you doing any internal changes or is it just that? No, the only thing, there's some buildings we're replacing, but no, this is all external stuff. There's some interior work that needs to be done, but they just don't have the money. Each person owns a unit, and it's a condo association, it's low income, so they've got some funding to do some outside work. Has the building been exterior walls rewired and insulated? I have no idea. No idea? No, all my stuff's been geared to the outside. The reason I ask that is that if the wiring's been replaced, and it's a great opportunity since it's going to be painted to do some insulating through. We have money set aside to insulate the basement and insulate the attics, so we have some of that. That's about it, we just... Efficiency for a month won't subsidize some insulation. We're trying to give them to give us money to do the basement and the attics. They've been there, they've done a blower door test, so they're going to tell us where the leakage is, so we may do some air sealing. Do you know what's in the outside walls? I have no idea. No one seems to know. Did they ever done a thermal test? That's why Efficiency for a month was there doing a blower door test, because they had their infrared camera and all that, so they were going to see, but we just don't have the funds, unfortunately. It would be interesting if you're replacing those clavids to cut back the sheathing just to be able to kind of look in those cavities just as a record for the owners to be able to say. Yeah, that's a good idea, and I think we will do that. Where you need to replace stuff, it'd be worthwhile just to take a peek and see what's in there. It's a great opportunity to get some work done where you can. Totally agree, and if numbers come in good, maybe one building we could attack and do the exterior walls, and yeah, there may be dense packing, I don't know. But they have blown it in at some point. I know weatherization has been there, but they don't seem to have a record of what they've done. We know there's cellulose in some of the attic, so it could be just that work that's limited. Can capstone take a look while this is being done, because they have funds to do a lot of that. Right, but my understanding is, since they've already been there once, they can't go back and put more money into it. But they don't know what they've done so far. That's what I've been told, because we asked and said, what did you do, and you said, well, we've been there, we're not sure what we did. Uncle George owned the house for a while, but I don't know what he did. Shame the association didn't ask for records so they could keep track of all that stuff. It's hard. I'm sure. Just thought I would ask. Yep, nope. We asked the same question. Opportunities don't come along that often. We asked the same question. And then this is 162, and it's right next door to 160. It's a long, narrow building. And basically the same work as the other two buildings. This is a full roof replacement. Yep. And I think the only thing that's different from here than the other buildings is there's two chimneys in the middle section that we're going to rebuild that are currently leaning and one is almost ready. So we're going to rebuild those, but similar scoping work. And then in this one, I remember looking in the file, there's some metal roofing that you're going to replace with shingles, right? Yep. We're also going to do handrails here where there's an asphalt, sorry, there's a, I don't remember. It's either an asphalt or a concrete sidewalk from the steps to the street sidewalk, and we're going to replace it with concrete. And there's a gang mailbox in front of this building, and we're replacing that, but we're replacing it in the same size, same shape and all that stuff. It's just the rest of their way. And between this building and 160, there's some vegetation, there's a couple of trees that have really overgrown and are leaning on the building. So we're not pulling anything, but we're going to cut it back, trim it, and try to do it off the buildings as much as possible. And I think that's about it for all three, sort of the same scope. Going back to the storm doors that you showed us before, are those aluminum doors or wood doors? And they have an offerable screen so they can be bent in and all that stuff. What color is the entrance door, where you're putting the screen door? You have a picture? I don't know. I think it's white. I think it's white, isn't it? Well, 162 is white. I think they're almost- How many screen doors are you putting in? We're putting one in at 158. We're putting one in at 260, and we're putting, I believe, two in it, 262. Can I see that? 160. Sorry. You look quite to me. 160 might have a dark door, but I don't know if that's actually the one where you're putting the screen in or not. Yeah. 160 looks like it's a black door. Yep, and that's one we're doing. This one already has one, so we're not touching that one, but we are adding one to that. This is the front? Well, it's facing the driveway. The front is really this side, and this is the front. And we're not putting a screen door on the front of 162, because it's a common door entry to a common hall, so it wouldn't benefit anybody. So these are only placed where there's an entrance to an edificer? To an edificer. 158 looks like it has a blue door. Sorry. 158 looks like it has a blue door. Yeah. It looks like there's an existing store. Yeah, it is, but it's banged up, and it's frustrated. Okay, so you're replacing that door with a new one that's basically going to look exactly like it. There's already a white screen door over that. Which one is that? So this is 158. So that's 158. You can actually see the white frame of the screen door over the white roof. So all the doors that the screen door is going to be on are different colors. This one you said looks like the blue one. Yep. But they're on there already. The screen door on there is already white. It's already white. Yeah. Okay. 160 is white, Steve, and 160 is black, and 162 is white. And this is the one where you're going to put one on. It doesn't look like there is one at all. There is a one, so we're going to add one there. So that'll then match. So this is 160. So this is 160, so there's no screen door in there, so they're adding one that matches what's on the other buildings. You know, adding a white one? Yep. Where there's a black door, would you put a black screen door on it to sort of... If you want me to and I can find one, black is, it's usually white and brown, or I can find a black door if you want to do it, but... We could just say that where the screen doors are going to be added that you could either give them the option of using white or matching as close as possible the color of the door behind it so that it... I would be okay with that. Unless, does anybody have a better idea? So that gives you an option. I mean, if there's not much cost difference, if somebody has a door they like the color of... And that's fine. You could match it with a similar color, either dark brown or black or white or whatever, depending on your financial constraints. Do you have the sheets for those? Yep. I gave you the wonderful 158, I thought. And then we have a lot of shuffle in the papers. Here's 160. Oh, I did. There's 158. There's 162. That's thanks for a really clear presentation. Yes. You're all maybe easy to understand what you're doing. I used to sit in the one in St. Albin, so I know what I'd like to see. So all we did was add to all of them. And again, that's at your option, your association or owner's option, that the screen door used to be added maybe either a white color or a color closest to the main door behind the screen door. Yeah, that's fine. That's fine. And there's a evaluation criteria that we'll go through for each of the applications. Okay. So what I'm going to do is I'll go through one, but we'll check them off since they're all similar for all three buildings at the same time, rather than going through three times. Okay. Number one, preservation or reconstruction of the appropriate historic style if a proposed project in the historic district involves an historic structure, acceptable, harmony of exterior design with other properties in the district, acceptable, compatibility of proposed exterior materials, whether the properties in the district acceptable, compatibility of proposed landscaping. There's no new landscaping proposed. It's just maintenance of what's starting there. It's only just trimming. Pruning and trimming, which is normal. If you look at the picture for like, for instance, 162 on the one that says less elevation, and you can see it's just crawling all over the place. It's uncontrolled. And then the one up top gives you an idea that trees right against windows and all that. So it's really maintenance and croning. Yeah, that's just a routine maintenance. Yes. So there's no new proposed landscaping. So I'll just, that'll be in a prevention of the use of incompatible designs, buildings, colors, schemes, or exterior materials, acceptable. Location and appearance of all utilities. No change in utilities, lighting, or any other. No. Okay. Recognition of and respect for view quarters and significant vistas, including gateway views of the city and state house, acceptable. All in favor, unless anybody has any other comments, all in favor, raise your hand. I'll give you these at one at a time, and the lower left above my name will need your signature here. Do you want me dated also? Sure. Thank you. And Audra's been talking to you about the boilers, right? She has. Okay. We're well-serving this week. That's good. Let me have that same. Yep. Just a moment. Perfect. I'm all set. Thank you very much. Thank you very much for coming and for your nice presentation. Thank you. And nice to meet you. And good luck with your project. Thanks. What? Projects. Projects. While you're filling those out, I'm going to go down and see if I can find out what's up with Jody Kelly about the science and the logical thing. Okay. Ben, you didn't talk to her at all, did you? No. I was thinking of texting her while I was here a month. Go for it. I'm busy. I am. And you? Too busy. Too busy? Yeah. I've been trying to retire for 10 years. Isn't it boring? Yes. One of the things that my wife and I are thinking about putting in addition to our house is it's a 1904 two-story standard house and garage. It's not really a garage. It's a shed. I want to take that down. Yeah. It's not a big shed. If you want, give me a call. I can come up to visit. We can talk. Yeah. I just want a little floor plan sketch. We can do that, whatever. I'm trying to do it so that we can live on the first floor of the house. Yep. I want to do the stairs. Yep. I'll be there eventually. Yeah. We own one floor. We own one floor. And have a wheelchair access. Yeah. I'm going to go for it. Yeah. Put it in our bathroom. You ready? Give me a call. Yeah. We can just keep it simple as you like. Yeah. We'll prompt you. Yeah. We'll prompt you. Talk a little bit. Quite for that. Yes. We don't mind now. We do it all the time. So we can do it. We like that. The interesting that somebody does our renovation like that to see how they approach it when the weight of the unsupported brain starts pressing down on the window. They either break the windows or jam them shut so you can operate them anymore. Since you're representing the railing, can't you represent the sign? I was considering it, but I actually don't have a clue like what, her, I don't know anything about it. So I feel like I would be, I was thinking about staying. I mean, I can tell you what I know if you want. Yeah. Okay. So, you know, you've got your image of what's there currently. Yes. Is there a frame band on it now? Well, this is a wooden frame here from the old sign that they used for like the service and everything. Right. And it's all rotted out. I think there's, there were some up close, yeah, the very end there's an up close picture that shows. Yeah. And so the plan is to replace that out, basically this. Sign phone. Really, maybe that's just the color, but they've, they've, that can't remain. Yeah. So I'm going to replace it and I'm going to go with black for that. Yes. And then this was going to be the window trim, window trim, your cheating heart, I think what it's called, what you put on there is what it's called for the window trim color. It's a charcoal color. Yeah. For the trim around the doors and the windows down below, they're just going to paint that. Yeah. And they're going to do a directory sign there because the main entrance for the cultural center is the back entrance. And so they. Where's the elevator entrance? Do you know what the elevator is? Elevator's inside. I don't, you don't see it from the outside. It's not, you don't access it from the outside? No. No. You access, like if you came in this door. It would be, it's like back in the building. It's halfway through. You have to go up this ramp. Or you go up the ramp around back. There's that wooden ramp around back. Is there an ADA ramp out back that you can't cheat to an elevator? There is. And she, they'll probably be back for some signage to the rear later. But they wanted to get these approved now. And then maybe think some more about how to do the back. Okay. Now is the, is the background for the front sign going to be glossy? Or is that a satin color? Yeah, because it looks really. It's pretty shiny. It looks really shiny. I don't like so much. Yeah. I don't, I don't think that, I think that that's something we can, we could give direction on. She brought these in while I was out. I'd rather wait until she can be here and answer our questions. Okay. I'm surprised I don't have a phone number in here. Well, I have phone numbers on, at least one phone number is on the application. But I didn't get anything. All I got was voicemail. Do you need to get started on the railings soon? The railings got approved. That's already approved. That's approved. It just showed it in here. Yeah. I'm working on the interior stuff at the moment. Okay. No, I didn't know if there was any additional. This is showing the railings, but it's also showing the signs. So this is just the sign application. This is just for the sign application. Okay. That's all this is. We can table it until they come in. Okay. And if she wants to squeeze in the other signs on the rear. Yep. Then we can do them all at the same time. Yeah. I think the thing is that they just weren't sure what to do back there yet. We'll talk to her about that. Okay. We would like to have a couple of options. She could bring them in and we could take a look and approve. You know, if there are two options that both look good, we could approve it and say, you know, whatever. Yeah. I told her that it would be good for a couple of years. I would suggest that the A satin or a flat color so it's not going to sit. In the summertime, you get enough light in the afternoon that's going to shine in an angle off of that. The glare is going to take away from the, the glare is going to take away from the readability of the sign. I just sent her a text. I'll see if that will happen. Otherwise it looks fine. Do you think that's readable from a distance? The size of the lettering there? Of course it's centered over the window, which if you make it larger, it's no longer going to be centered. I would be perfectly happy if it was larger. You can always make the stone cliff maybe bigger. I don't know. It would be hard to make it bigger and still have it all fit. You want to be able to see that sign from the street. Yeah. I know it's hard to fit it all in. And I do like, personally, I know it's the five. I know my opinion doesn't count for a whole lot, but I like the circles with the colors. That's nice. I think taking that out would be definitely much better. Well, the only other thing you could do would be to take stone cliff and raise it up, raise it up, make it larger, a little larger reading, and then put two colors and your cross do one on each side. In other words, do two yellows on a stone cross, two yellows or a stone cross and two whatever colors that is. I wouldn't worry too much about that thing. It's actually centered on the window. But it's all one inch or 10 inch. Yes. And then this one, the garage cultural center. You could make it a little larger so the garage cultural might be over the window and center could be even over into here. Again, so it's more readable. Yep. And then the informational sign, obviously if somebody's attracted by those other two signs, once they get up, post it to the building, that would be readable. Yep. They just want that to be readable from the bottom of the ramp. Yes. People don't walk up. I would almost take stone cliff, raise it up, and then take this, which is nice. I would put this on either side of stone cliff. Again, just trying to make it larger so it's readable from the street. You could always put the cross sign as the O. You were probably trying to match the sign once there. I think they're also trying to match some of their logos from down into Hampshire, too. I think it actually would look better with bigger lettering. Mm-hmm. The lettering looks kind of... I feel like I won't... Ministered all that empty space. I kind of want the garage cultural center and stone cliff to be on the same data. It feels like they're just off from each other. Oh, line-wise? Yeah. If you would underscore the garage cultural center, it's like running partially through stone cliff. Maybe that's not important, but I guess... Or I'd want to move the garage cultural center down so it's on the same line as veterinarian clinic and make the letters bigger. They can get with whoever's doing their designs to play with it and come up with a couple of options. Yeah. It just feels a little... To balance it better and make it more readable. The up and down arrows are a little obscure. I like them, but I think... I like them. It's... Because the up arrows, because you're going to run in the back of the building versus right here for the veterinarian clinic. On this side of the building, you don't go that way. I would think that leaving them out would be... Makes you feel smart if you get them, though. If you see it and you understand it... I... I'm a smart guy. I got it. As you get up to the ramp, you can see the rear entrance to the right. You know, cultural center to the right. Or if you're looking, there's an arrow to the left. I mean, if you walk up the stairs on the left, I would be perfectly happy with the sign. That sign on a post or something down at the end of the railing. Oh, the directional sign? Yeah, the cultural center sign. And rear entrance. Hm. Having it bringing it down. Well, people have to wait. I think that would make it... I can bring the option to the discussion. Once you get to the bottom of the ramp, that one's pretty readable. Because they're close enough. Yeah, oh, I... It would beat you up to the ramp anyway. The sign. I think anybody would be able to find a way around it. Steve, have you paid enough attention to the building as to whether... Why all this ghosting is happening on the exterior of the brick? It's... Because they've heated it. Probably because of the reflect. At some point in the effervescence, water gets down. And now, because they're heating it? Because it hasn't been heated for a few years? Yeah, I don't know whether that's new or... It keeps coming back when you heat it. Because there's no insulation. The heat goes right through the brick. And it condenses on the outside. Yeah, just do that. And it's the old... This is the way it is. The reverse of the glass of ice water on your deck in the summer. Right. Where it starts sweating. And you get... My guess is that, like you said, it's the effervescence. There's also, if you look at the building, there is a... Some of the pictures showed. It doesn't show so much on this one. It looked like there was some kind of a... If you look at the building itself, it looked like there's some kind of... Either effervescence or at some point there may be some kind of an overhang or something. For all this stuff. I think it's more words that were up there. I have a bit more sign. I think this was before you were asked. Yes. Wasn't Senator Jephard's office here? I'm sorry? Wasn't Senator Jephard's office in there at one point? Do you want to, Dan? Yeah. I can't remember. Just a while back. One thing I did want to ask your opinion on is whether the garage there is your opinion part of the historic building or a separate sign? My thought was that it's really part of the historic building and not something that should be taken off at any point or considered in the sign calculation. It's almost more art or just part of the building. I see there's more art. If you just leave that. They don't. I would just leave it there. It's an interesting piece of the history of the building. Exactly. And it's been there for at least probably a year. I have no idea what her current thinking was. At one point she had suggested they were going to repaint that. Well, at one point they were suggesting actually painting veterinary all up along the top and I said they can't do that. But my also thought was that I don't even know if repainting that is something that somebody should do. Because then it makes it look like it's new. Sort of like a capitalist space painted brick. Yeah, I just, I don't, yeah. It's 950 capital stationers repanded in sign on their side of the building. So would it be something that you would like to have them do? Yeah. This sort of does in that it's the cultural center. The garage cultural center. Yeah, but somebody else might move into the building some other time. Rather than repaint that. Rather than repaint that. I think if you repainted that, it might take away from the sign below it. If to sort of partially restore it, it might take some similar colored painting and maybe rag it around the lettering. Just to sort of bring it back a little bit but not, I mean, sort of what's there now? My guess is that that sign was painted. I think the Ford garage moved out of there in the same piece. And that was probably that painted before that. That would still be readable. It's still 70 years old. 20 years from now, you're still going to be able to see that coaster there. I just think if you painted it white, it would take away from their sign below. Absolutely. Thank you. I just, it was one of those questions that had been coming up and even before they decided on what to do with the building. Other people were talking about what to do with the building. And you can still read it. I wasn't quite sure what to do. It reads differently depending on the season. You know, this looks like on the top here, that looks like it was a sign. You know, painted at the same time. It's got the same length where the white is up here. That looks like it's weathered. It would be interesting if you had a photo from way back so you could see. There must be somewhere. I bet that you can find out. One of the projects I wanted to do, I won't do it anymore. But we should go through the city directories and make a list of the obstacles while we're doing stuff. The city directories are really complete. I just got a text back from her. I wonder if she thinks, because this says development, she thinks she's going to development. Oh, because it's development application? Yeah. She couldn't. Yeah, it's everything. All zoning applications get the development application at the start. We'll just make some suggestions to her. About, again, the size of the lettering and the alternatives to doing their logo to include with that to make the lettering a little larger and more readable. And make this a little larger and line that up possibly with that more. It would just balance it nicely. I was going to talk to Jody for just a second. Agreed. He gets done with his phone call and then we can either address this or go on. Has anybody had a chance to look at the minutes? I did. And I would move them. We have enough people here that would have been. You may have been. And I'll make sure to note to her also about possibly moving the directories signed down. I'm not sure. I think it's fine either way. Well, this is actually the point on there is larger than it was because the sign was actually too big when she first proposed it. She had more words in there. So we've actually made it bigger since she originally proposed it. And again, does she want people, to me, this arrow here makes it look like I should go up the stairs and around the deck. So maybe get rid of that arrow. Does that grid bring you around back? I can't remember if that goes all the way around to the back. So anyway, that's a question as far as the arrow goes. Does that, to those stairs on the side deck grid bring you around back as well? Or does she intend for everybody to go on this side? In which case you may have. I have Jody on speaker. Can you hear us Jody? Great. We have some questions coming your way. Sorry about that Jody. Unfortunately, I wasn't in the office today. So I didn't give you a call. That's okay. You know, the only questions we had, number one, actually there were options for you. Number one, looking at the proposed sign on the left hand side, the garage cultural center. There's a white arrow pointing, making it look like it's to the back. It makes it look like you go up the stairs onto this deck on that side, on the river side. Does that deck go all the way to the back as well? On the river side or the church side? River side. Okay, because as you go up the ramp, there's a sign on the building that shows rare entrance and it points to the right. Okay. No, I was just wondering if there was, just making sure that you could go to the, get to the back from both sides. The other question that was more of an option for you was to make the lettering more readable if you would like an option to make the lettering larger and play with spacing. And on the side where stone cliff is, you have, it looks like a logo up above that. Would you like to make stone cliff larger and have maybe the logo spread onto both sides or do something different with the logo to make stone cliff larger and your veterinary clinic sign below that, larger so it's more readable from the street. It's quite a distance for the size of the lettering. If you made stone cliff larger, how would you, is that part of your logo? The four, the four circle, the five circles above that? Yeah, the thing Steve talked about before, this is Eric Gilmourtson, is using a semi-gloss background that the piece that you brought into the office is real glossy and it would be really reflective if there's any sunlight that hits it. Well, what it'll do is if any reflection on the black background is going to make the lettering even less readable, if you have a, if you have a flat background, flat background, then the flat paint won't, there won't be any glare that takes away. Again, if there's much glare and the sun in the afternoon comes around the corner and then in the morning, depending on the season, the sun can hit that side in the morning and then particularly in the late afternoon and if the sun's at an angle across the facing of that sign, the glare will, can literally obliterate your lettering or the readability. And the last thing you'd want to do, I think, would be to have a painted glossy and then not be able to read your lettering and now you're sort of stuck with it at that point unless you redid the whole thing, okay? Or we can give them the option to be using the same layout to make the lettering a little larger if they can, you know, if they can fit it within the borders of the sign and still have it balanced. Yeah. And Jody, one other comment I have is it might be nice if like the bottom line, datum line of the garage cultural center was at the same elevation as stone cliff. It feels a little, like, they don't, the balance feels weird to me there. Maybe it's just trying to make the garage, I can see the intent is to make the garage cultural center part of the sign in the center of the sign band which once and on the other side you got more text going on so the center's in a different place but somehow as they read together, it's a thought, you know. Have you thought about putting a handicap access sign on the directional sign that goes around the back? I don't know what your score is, but it's a problem. Jody, this... Jody, this is Merida. You might be able to even just do a little round, you know, blue handicap symbol after the rear and before on that same line with the rear for the rear entrance, you might be able to fit that right in there. Even just the blue, even if people just see that blue they'll know what that means. Yeah, I think that would be a nice addition for a lot of reasons just to sort of make it feel more welcoming like that. If she just puts a standard handicap access sign up it's just a question, does that count on the square foot of the signing? I don't even think so. I've never even seen that but it also just to keep it from being too busy they could always put that there, they could always put the handicap access square sign, another one on the railing and I don't think...that's ADA, that's not... I think it would be really nice on that sign right there and just sort of say, hey, we're welcoming and trying to encourage everybody. It doesn't hurt to have multiple... I mean you did put in an elevator, might as well. Make sure everybody knows. We're writing out an application for you with a lot of options. Giving you options. And you can come to the... just down to our office tomorrow morning and put your signature on the form. Awesome. There has been some discussion about your arrows. I like the arrows, they make me feel smart once I figured out what they were telling me that the garage cultural center was upstairs and that the stone cliff vet was downstairs. Sorry. They're subtle. We like them. That's when Jody and I met in my office. I was saying I like them too. Do you know how the... this piece of foam signboard that we have in front of us here, do you know how it's finished around the edges? Clearly the foam isn't exposed. And it's all flat. Is that raised up in any way or is it all... Yeah. So like a frame around the edges. Do you know anybody who does a metal work who could bank a nice sea channel to go around it? I do. I recuse myself. Since you can't see what's going on we're still writing out options for you. Okay. And then we'll probably read them all to you so that you know what's going on. You want to just say either a wood or a composite then maybe placed around this signed background for preservation of the material. Yeah. A handicap accessible symbol to the current directory sign or a new handicap accessible sign? Still lots of writing. Maybe added or maybe... Maybe added to the directory sign or if you guys wanted it or it could be a separate sign. There's got to be an exception for handicap accessible signs to not be part of the wall sign calculation, I would think. That would make sense. I would hope so. Yeah, if there isn't there should be. But we'll make one. Yeah. It may just be one of the general exceptions at the very beginning of Germany that anything to do with the ADA accessibility just isn't sent. Jody, you're not proposing any lighting with this sign, correct? Not at this time? Are you proposing any lighting to this sign at this time? Are those in here, Jody? We'll be determined later, it says. Yeah, I don't think you put that in this application. When they come back for the back signs? Yeah. Are we? To be determined. Yeah, on here you had that the lighting was to be determined at a later time after a qualified electrician inspects. Well, we wanted to talk about possible rear signs too, right? Yeah. And for the rear signs, remember, you can also get those approved two years before you actually want to install them. Okay. What would you think, instead of just tossing something out about between a very small gooseneck between the sills of each set of windows going out that shine down in a flood, would shine down on each of the signs below the garage cultural center and stone cliff, because they're fairly well centered. I know, I might work to center them a little bit more. And it would be nice and it wouldn't interfere with a garage sign above the historic sign. You can just put a little gooseneck between, right between the sills. Yeah. A gooseneck a little higher than a gooseneck over would neither hide this historic sign. I'd have to come out pretty far. Well, it could come out a little ways. It could come out, you know, 18 inches. But a very small, thin gooseneck with a little LED flood would light up both of those pretty nicely. I would just be an industrial builder. Yeah. But again, that would be fairly discreet and it's really centered right over each of your cultural center and stone cliff signs. Just a thought to add to your to-do list. To-do list. I know. And again, we can wait until you check with the electrician about that possibility and then come back when you come back for the signs for the rear. So just going through what we've reviewed so far, the black background of the sign should be a flat black color or of the signs should be a flat black color to avoid glare, which could make the sign lettering less readable. That's the recommendation. The options are the size of the lettering or the sign may be increased in size for more readability as long as the desired spacing within the sign bands in between the lettering can be maintained. And then two, lettering for the garage cultural center may be placed in the same horizontal on the same horizontal level as a stone cliff lettering just for aesthetic balance in the sign. And again, that's an option for you. Three, a black metal or composite material may be used to band the black sign background to preserve the sign foam material. And then number four, a handicap sign may be either added immediately below the directory sign or be incorporated into the directory sign. And again, those four are options. Is the color an option or is that a recommendation? That's a recommendation. The flat black is a recommendation. Yeah, because I feel strongly about that. I don't think that the gloss is consistent with the sparks. You wouldn't want to spend that much money and have the afternoon sun obliterate your sign. So the flat black color is a recommendation. It'll work better with the lights, too. Much better. And then the... The last thing you want is a glossy black because the lighting for the sign will reflect that as well as the sun. Any other questions, comments? We go through the criteria. Remember, there's a criteria we need to go through and I'll just read through them. Design review standards, preservation or reconstruction of the appropriate historic style of the proposed projects in the historic district that involves an historic structure, acceptable. Harmony of exterior design with other properties in the district, acceptable. Compatibility of proposed exterior materials with other properties in the district, acceptable. Compatibility of proposed landscaping, non-proposed. Prevention of the use of incompatible designs, buildings, color schemes or exterior materials, acceptable. Location and appearance of all utilities, none added yet, but will be proposed in the future. Recognition of and respect for view corridors and significant vistas including gateway views of the city and state house. We'll call that acceptable because it is a long and visible from State Street. Conformance with cityscape placement and design recommendations, acceptable. Compatibility with subject property and adjacent properties, acceptable. Shall not obscure significant architectural details, acceptable but you're leaving that old garage sign as faded as it is and taxed but that's a very historic part of the building. Consistency and uniformity of multiple signs in CB2 and OP, not applicable. Illumination, not applicable at this point. Penits and banners, not applicable. Individual letters of fixed painted or engraved directly on the building and structure are encouraged and this is acceptable because of the existing sign band that this will be replacing. And all in favor of the proposal with the recommendation and optional changes. Raise your hand. I'm not sure where to look. Here we go. Okay, and again you can stop into the office and find the form that we filled out, okay? You're talking about the window frames? Doing that in a black is basically what color is it now? And you wanted to do it with your cheating heart, correct? We don't need to do a separate application. I would call that a maintenance. It's really not part of the sign but we'll call that an administrative approval of a maintenance. And then having this so you could see the combination of the black against this was helpful. But yeah, that was, that's fine. Okay. And again, but we can... No, that's okay. And when you come back for whatever signs you're adding on the back, you can add in the whatever lighting gooseneck that you're proposing for the front after consulting your electrician. Okay, thank you very much. You're welcome. Thank you, Jody. Okay, thank you. Thanks, Jody. Goodbye. Thank you, ma'am. She's worked hard to pull us together and I appreciate what she's doing. So it felt a little strange to have her on the phone. No, that's okay. Good. Have you had a chance to look at the minutes? I haven't, yeah. Okay, let men take a look. There were only three of us there. You, Eric, and myself. So, second? I second. All in favor of the minutes, raise your hand. And unless anybody has anything else, do I hear a motion to adjourn? I move to adjourn. I'll second that, too. All in favor of adjournment, raise your hand. Meeting is adjourned.