 the practical and also some some notes I'd like to make. I'm not sure. I mean first of all I would like to know how many of you are actually in some way researchers. Okay great and like how many of you are like not in core IT like in programming but in something else like you know okay that's great. I think we have a good mixture. So first of all I'm not sure how it was for you but since Friday the 13th of 2015 I have been to a couple of events and usually like I was at a child theater play or something and they felt obliged to make a note on the Paris attacks and how we're all against terror and so on. So I'd like to do something similar but in a different way because exactly one year ago when before the attacks I gave a talk in Paris at a little squad actually was an anarchist tech conference and that talk was about mostly a paper from Jean Youngblood and a talk a lecture from 2012 I think in Buenos Aires and he's a media theorist who has a lot to say about centralization decentralization and how media developed in the last 100 years and his basically he's describing something which he calls the broadcast which is if you're in Germany for example Tagesschau or if you are in the US maybe CNN or Fox News and so on but also a lot more and what he actually says is all of these news sites when we actually participate when we actually listen to this kind of broadcast we are actually creating ourselves in the image of what is presented to us right we are basically becoming part of that we are sucked into it and he basically says if you want to change something we actually need to secede from this broadcast we need to do something else so that's my note on Paris the just to give a bit of my context so you can actually interpret what I'm going to say during the talk I've been I'm going to say some positive things about EU projects which is maybe not totally expected and also I'm even going to say some positive things about how money is distributed and how they are trying to do that and that might be because I have participated in three proposals for EU projects and by being lucky by maybe working with the right people or so all of them got accepted so that's going to taint my view on this probably a bit it's all great and you know it's like easy and whatnot the other thing is that I also since about 20-25 years I co-created and still maintain several open source projects and I also participated in co-creating for like 10-12 years or so a community space which is like owned by the people that live there and with lots of many interesting things happening there here in Germany so that's some of my background when you think of the EU what you're and the funding and this 80 billion it's actually 78 billion number you are actually probably and that's also how I was introduced like how to make money fast how to make it like for free to just get it right and I think that this thing that basically money is an end in itself like you just you know you just get it and yeah happy to just have it and do it it's on the one hand I think it's fine I kind of like can sympathize with that on the other hand I think this this whole notion of believing so much in these numbers like transferring some bits from one computer to another and having like all of society ordered by this is a bit odd so when you look at this bitcoin coin there is a an engravement that says virus in numerous and that means strength or power or something strength in numbers and you can tell also probably not only for the bitcoin people but also for the IT community which has grown like crazily in the last decade there's a strong belief base in in this numbers like in counting you know in measuring in measuring also popularity and and all this and there's also a long criticism of looking at numbers and trying to understand society and other people by putting numbers to them one of the first persons who actually discussed this is like 2300 something years ago that guy was Aristotela he's still like many of the things that they were discussed at that point they're still kind of prevalent in our thinking like in many areas one of the areas that he actually already discussed was what does money do with the society and one of the advice is he gives like it's a it's a longer thing that a friend of mine actually just gave his talk to become a philosophy professor on this particular topic and I learned a lot by by listening to him and understanding that already Aristotela had this thing about focus on the use value of money like how can you use it to actually do something and not on the exchange value like just like amassing money and you saw this tendency like already in Athens like two and three thousand two thousand and a bit years ago my like 11 days ago my my child at the time I was preparing the talk and I was thinking about Aristoteles and talking to a friend about it he I came into his room and he built this bridge just by himself he found some money somewhere you know and he built this bridge and he wanted to basically I think it's a good picture and it actually captures also part of what Aristotela said because you're basically trying to get to another place you want to have a new system you want to have a new understanding you want to have like different ways how we organize and on your way you might you need some money to actually do this but the thing is not about the money it's actually about getting somewhere else okay so with that all being said let's get to the money the program the research program there's there's many EU programs the biggest one in history is the current research program which was called horizon 2020 it started in 2014 it's lasting seven years and if you break down the numbers it means that for each day they spent 30 million on research projects right like each day like during the course of this conference they spent three times four 120 million a bit more expensive than this conference I guess previously we could basically fly to the moon with this money right we could um we could get very far the whole Apollo program like from the inception in terms of research to actually building the rockets testing the rockets actually flying to the moon or the trainings everything was done with a similar amount of money I would argue because we should be it should be a lot easier today to actually do something like this with all the great technology we have except it seems we're not even able to to build an airport in Berlin anymore you know but it's okay um one of the persons actually involved in that research that was successful the Apollo was Margaret Hamilton and she was the director for doing the software for the onboard flight system so when the thing actually approached the moon they programmed and the program is actually this paperwork right it's this staple it's assembler and the even though this program was a lot of paperwork they had a relatively free organization of how they researched like people got together discussed certain problems went off to do something and so on so there wasn't like a lot of hierarchy it's the same way how they did it with the Manhattan project to build the atomic bomb and it's the same way they I think created laser systems for example back in the days in the 50s they actually just got like lots of people who are capable basically according to San Pretiria and they just got them together and said go you know the goal is this organize yourself how to get there that's not how it's happening anymore so the the paperwork that we have today is um we are like deep into bureaucracy and I think that's the last general framing thing I'd like to do um the one book is very is discussing basically the development of research uh from David Graeber um in I think it appeared in this year earlier this year it's called the Utopia of Rules and he discusses how bureaucracy is like the dominant model and it doesn't matter if you were in living in uh East Germany, Soviet Russia or or like in the US or so or in Germany it's all the same like the the bureaucracy uh topic is there and it's developing and I even argue that and you can talk to me about this afterwards that the software we are building and the IT systems we are building are actually prolonging and deepening this bureaucracy so there's tons of people in call centers and everywhere who are basically driven by software they just basically just put a voice to an algorithm they have no agency left that's what you get like if you have a total ordering by bureaucracy like there's no agency there's no nobody can decide anything it's all driven by rules right and there seems to be something that we find fascinating about this it's like we like to it's impersonal it's not like it doesn't depend on the size of my nose it's like nice I can just go there and and get get what I deserve you know according to some rules but it does kill agency and I think it's a big problem that extends even further than what he's talking about okay so let's get to the practical parts information communication technology is the one thing that incorporates I think about 18 20 percent of the budget of the horizon program and it's it's basically about all the things that are going on here at the conference and in various in various forms and what I find it interesting that I mean the EU is kind of a market liberal organization that's kind of well known but there's also other aspects like like the main overarching goal what they state is actually to do something with a tangible benefit for european citizens not for companies you know I mean the way they want to achieve that is actually going through companies but the idea and that you can see that actually in many calls is actually going a bit deeper so they are very open now to open source stuff to grassroots stuff it even appears like in calls you know if you're doing some grassroots stuff like fry phone for example also received funding and other people so they're really there's an opening there which is actually I think already in the in the main goal they have six main activity areas and one thing that is also apparent if you actually read some of the meta docs and of this ICT strategy it's not very long I think it's good to read it is that they see that software is eating the world it's like everywhere and that also means that there's a different responsibility and that also means that we need to have something interdisciplinary. IT people cannot hope to like have a good understanding even though like for example the bitcoin people tend to do this to have a good understanding how human history actually evolved you know anthropology and things like this and David Greba which I which I mentioned earlier he is an anthropologist and he actually knows like about various aspects of the last 5,000 years of human development that are like well researched they're grounded actually in research whereas when you find IT people talking about society you often get a very like kind of simplistic view and I think that stems from the fact that we IT got so important that we somehow feel we are like you know we know what's happening we can tell the world how things are going on because of this importance of IT and you get lots of money and whatnot so I think there's a certain danger there I'm going to get back to that at the end anyway these six areas combined with interdisciplinarity are actually a description of what is going on here at the conference right I mean all of these things here happen at the conference so it's on that level it's I think a perfect match so let's look at how does it actually work the what I call the application environment or the terms you need to know when you actually go for an application I'm going to go into this a bit but I'd like to make one note before the the main way how how the projects I'm involved and started was by personal relations talking to people not talking to companies talking to people who are doing some interesting stuff right and when you have this network and this is like a perfect opportunity like last year it literally went around the conference and talked to random people I didn't know before of course you all know some people at least most of you will know some people but it's a great idea to just talk to random people and and find something out you know and do some networking there so the application for the EU what the ICT publishes is a two-year work program they want to program society and they publish calls the calls are kind of brief they're like one page or maybe one and a half pages they have all kinds of keywords in them like there are about doing new distributed systems new at a big call like this year for digital social platforms I think 200 million or something they spent on building new digital social platforms and these calls are basically the they are usually published in advance like three months ago and they stem from things in the work program so by looking at the work program for the next two years you can actually get an idea of what they're going to publish calls on and maybe if you know some people or attend or have someone in your context attend something of the networking events which are actually kind of nice like in Brussels or so you will get some more information on when a call is actually upcoming before and what you do then if you already like know people who are interested in a particular topic you need to form you need to do two things you need to write a proposal that needs to get accepted and you need to form a consortium a consortium of companies and other organizations that can be non-profit organizations that can be universities or research institutes and so on or your own companies the when you actually within this three months there's a deadline when you submit your proposal as a consortium then it gets evaluated and finally which is now quite quick like 10 years ago it used to take like nine months now it's like three months so usually like three months after submission you know if you accept it or not a note about small companies something that changed which I find very positive for personal reasons is that 10 years ago the funding was 50 percent so the EU basically gave let's say 200,000 but you had to come up with another 200,000 I had to show that you actually spent 400,000 and to make it easier for small companies they actually now give 100 percent funding so you get all of that plus 25 percent overheads so if you're getting for example 100,000 per year as a small company you still get 25,000 for overheads like accounting and managing some stuff and so on so that's actually a big I think very positive change because it means that actually small companies can like myself for example 10 years ago I was a one-person company more or less then I had some employees and I thought well maybe subcontracting is better or not working at all it's even even much better and then I'm also I had my small company and I this time I was again one person company which was kind of fine I mean there's people getting employed and stuff like this but they're kind of very flexible about this 10 years ago it was a big fight so that's a I would say a positive message also the paperwork is much better now it's a bit hard to actually authenticate to the system that requires like some overhead ahead but otherwise registering as a company and stuff like this is basically a matter of half a day or day or something when you write a proposal to whatever entity then you need to know how the evaluation is done they have three criteria and for each of the criteria they give five points it's excellence that means how the project you're envisioning the objectives you have in your project need to discuss the state of the art like what is currently in that field when you are doing something what is the state of the art and then how do you go how do you intend to go beyond it like what are you doing what are you trying to do with this research project and it needs to be risky it needs to be bold like not I'm doing a small increment improving like the subsystem that's not enough like it needs to be like something that spans over like two three years and involves maybe like 10 people working on the project and and being on the edge of research that's the idea impact is the basically the market liberal aspect because they basically perceive the succession or the improving of society through funding creating an european market and strengthening the european market against the evil asians and the evil us and even the brazil and whatnot you know so it's kind of like this thinking you will find and basically you need to make an argument how this is relating to market activities how something actually this research might be the basis for some products to be developed and some further activities that are economic you know and then the third criteria criterion is quality and efficiency and that refers to how well do you actually allocate the money between the partners how well are the the people who are involved in the project qualified to actually do this work is there some kind of basically you need to create some trust that you're not just having some grand idea but you can actually execute it you can actually do it so basically this is where you bring in past open source projects past other projects you did and and the scientists also that needs to be involved because you also need to publish papers but not only i mean that's only just one aspect they also need to have some track record or that helps at least the evaluation process i think is actually somewhat like i said i mean one of these positive statements actually somewhat reasonable it's when you send in your proposal it gets disclosed to independent reviewers these are people who are not employed by the european union they actually get a day uh honorarium of 450 euros and um they get sent nowadays they used to actually convene in some room where which was sealed now it's actually allowed before that they get the proposals remotely so they can actually do internet research which they couldn't do before they're going to cross check what you're saying in your proposal against like the real world right and um the these independent reviewers also independently give three times up to five points excellence how well are you going beyond state of the art impact how it's like helping the economy quality like are you feeling that they give up to five points for each it gets summed up and if two reviewers who are reviewing the same proposal disagree they need to talk to each other and either convince each other or i think the average is taken i'm not sure but i think they can get a chance like someone says well quality is really just three out of five and the other says no it's actually five it's because blah blah and then they can actually maybe say four or they even agree on five it's like this is an independent process between these two reviewers and maybe there might also be i'm not sure about this there might also be other reviewers who then also look at this in case of conflicts that changes also a bit and it depends also a bit on the call the accumulation of these points is up to 15 and there's no threshold so it's not like if you have 13 you are accepted or something or 14 or 50 not even 15 basically it depends on the number of proposals for the particular call so if you have 30 proposals and you have five projects which can get accepted the typical sum is two million but it can be also five but typical is like two three million for consortium um you will get five projects in there and you have 30 proposals and then basically the highest ranking ones first take up the positions so maybe it's 14 points or 13 points that are enough that depends on the number of proposals and the budgets and so on you also have to know that there's a whole industry trying to grab this money so there's various companies actually offering um services to write proposals so about what i know from many people in the area about half the proposals are basically not acceptable at all because either they are very well written because that that has been done professionally by people who do this like for the 20th time or so but there's no content right there's no excellence basically it's like lots of buzzwords but you know and then you have actually also the other extreme where it's like a very ambitious project but it's like impossible to understand what they're actually trying to do you know well then on or the structure of their work is like implausible or something like this and they are many people actually resubmit they just try again I modified a bit maybe a slightly different consortium do it again these are about half the proposals and they're typically so actually you only have if you actually pass these two barriers then you only have like 10 to 15 competitors so then the chances actually increase yes so that's I think well the thing is it's very easy to criticize I mean as a gated community it's very easy to criticize the EU with all the bureaucracy and you know all the power structures and the hidden agendas and whatnot and I think that's not entirely fair because I've been involved also in program committees like doing accepting talks and so on and these were community conferences and I can say from my own experience that the selection process is in many places kind of random it depends on some people taking a stance and claiming this is a great talk or that's a great person who wants to talk and so on and it's not really a transparent process I mean the typical mail you get when you submit something to a conference including the 32c3 is yeah we are sorry there were so many interesting proposals so we had to choose and it was really hard blah blah we took like every effort and so on and and then cheers to you you know no information actually no information on okay what aspect you know is it like the topic is not interesting or like couldn't you understand what I want to actually do in this talk or something like this whereas with the things whereas with the you actually get the numbers you see okay they actually thought the excellence is there right it's like five points great so the highest score you can reach they think there's even a good impact maybe it's four and they think the quantity is actually just three and they actually even sometimes have sentences explaining why they think it's three so it's actually somewhat useful feedback because it means when you get like excellence five for example that you can stick to the idea maybe resubmit but actually have to work a bit more on other contexts uh and other areas of your proposal or the other way around I know for example there's a very interesting project I know some people there I'm not directly involved called the interplanetary file system it's about a decentralized web and many people actually in several conferences have been very interested in this there have been nine talks submitted to this conference from indeed from multiple people and they have been all rejected and they have no clue why right so this whole thing the EU is bad and they're doing their their intransparent and so on I think it's it's also good to look a bit like I'll be actually really saying okay if you give me this I can give you this and so on it's a difficult thing actually if you actually put yourself into the position there when you actually get accepted in a call with your proposal then of course the the thing is actually carrying out the project and because you have to do planning so far ahead like three three four years actually when you start with envisioning the project up until completion it's four years who can foresee four years of their life um then the kind of collaboration you do there and the kind of people you pull into the project how you deal with somebody you know falling out because he or she gets a child or something happens and so on and then you have to deal with all of that as well and of course you have to you have to deliver the only legally binding things you promise to the EU which are like you have this 60 page proposal which is typical and there's like 15 pages which are your work packages you actually say okay we have these six work packages that's also a typical thing there's multiple partners there's usually elite partner in each work package and we have for this work package three deliverables a research paper on this a release of this software on that and whatever and you have this for all of the work packages and these deliverables they are the legal promises that you do so if you don't produce this you will get a problem actually getting all of the money or like you get prepayment and then you have to pay it back that actually happens like it happens but it's kind of unusual so basically in your proposal you give all of the context that is important to understand the work packages and the work packages are the primary and the deliverables are then the for the reviewers the primary focus of attention they look at this like how much money per work package what are the various aspects how does it all relate to each other does it look like each partner is just doing their own thing and they actually try to avoid to talk to each other and just want to get their project through and stuff like this you know this is actually what they look at like how many partners are involved do they actually intend to collaborate on so on and then of course you also have to do financials and reporting and I can say that yes it's a bit of effort but it's not actually insurmountable I have been with national programs in Germany and they have well I hope nobody's listening there I'm not actually intending to go it hasn't been as actually the EU this horizon or this framework program I think has a lot of rational let's put it positively a lot of rational processes so also when for example when one partner actually can't provide the the work because somebody dropped out who was like qualified to do it then shifting some budget to another partner it's actually quite possible and this is where the initial trust and the people relations come in because if you have a discussion in the consortium between companies who actually distrust each other which happens a lot then something like shifting budget to reach a goal is going to be very hard and that can only be prevented I think by people actually you know somewhat trusting each other that they don't just you know want to grab money and don't want to give anything and contribute and so on that's really something that you can resolve on the people level so an example now for the current call that a number of people I'm involved with went in and actually got it and it's starting in January was that and this is an example of the multidisciplinary interdisciplinary tone and aspect that is in many and I think it's very important and it makes a lot of sense in many ICT information communication technology stuff just like here at the conference basically they wanted to have something a research project that actually does technological developments addressing anonymity ethics privacy preservation and so on so obviously a topic that is tight in part at least also to a reaction also within parts of the EU people regarding Snowden it actually goes back to that right so they thought okay something needs to be done there and what we did like a number of people got together the first meeting I was involved and it's like a year ago and the sorry no the year and two or three months and then the the actual thing where more people got together was here at the 31c3 like at two o'clock in the night walking out of the party hall running into the persons and ah we wanted to talk about this okay let's talk about this and then you know these were like three different people from three different countries which is also important and kind of three different contexts contexts so we got together and we had heard that there's going to be a call and it was about this so we applied for that um oh I'm sorry right sorry this is the project we applied with did I actually show this slide right um this is the call that is part of the text of this one page call and we said great you know we just take this and focus on this because there's lots of things in this call but you basically are going to tell your story from a part of the call and say okay this is what we're going to focus on and that's what we did we actually said okay and it's it's stated a bit boldly um also to make it clear like the people involved here um want to research into decentralized um interdisciplinary and privacy preserving and so on uh technologies and protocols actually develop new protocols so there's various peer to peer protocols and um messaging protocols including also more transparent encryption for email and lots of other things that are in this project and also community research like trying to understand why or how decentralization projects can succeed in the current market environment that we have right we're just not a trivial problem um so um another project I'm just going to mention this briefly um is the pi pi project I actually talked about this in 2005 I think also at a ccc conference um it's just in time compiler for python and it was a ufunded for three years the project existed already one or two years like between persons that actually at some point decided okay this is an interesting call like new language design or something what it was and we went for that we got three years of fun three years funding one or three million or something like this and the thing is and that's also why the EU is happy about this project as a reference is it's actually still ongoing like in 2015 and that's not the typical things that happens with EU projects they exist at like with the beginning of the funding and they end when it's done and then there's nothing sometimes even the web page is gone you know and you can imagine that many like many people the project officers who are responsible for projects they're kind of unhappy about this they want to have something that actually has an impact that actually goes on and they basically try to like they pump some money into it to actually help it and you don't have to pay it back it's not a loan or something but it's actually for getting somewhere and not just for getting the money so I think the key again is like the the people and the project you want to do the project idea the vision is really what needs to come first and basically also wanting to do it even without EU funding that's a good start I think and then you basically are even more happy when the project actually when you actually get the funding and can sustain yourself one thing that is important is what is very helpful 10 years ago I haven't used it that much now because I have other means of getting that information but in each country in Europe there's a so-called national contact point and Germany is called the NKS it's actually with the you know moon landing the the Raumfahrt the what's it called airspace no space travel right space travel agency of Germany they are also functioning as as a contact point the thing about contact points the national contact points they are usually super helpful they are not employed by the European Union they are actually representing the nation states and they want to help the entities in their country to get the largest piece of the cake as possible right so don't be afraid to talk to them when you talk to someone from the European Union it's often a lot harder to get useful information that I think it's partly to the rules they are actually executing they had a big scandal of corruption 10 years ago or 12 years ago now or so and they changed the rules and I think it's still in effect but don't name you on this it was at least for a very long time a project officer that tells a project something like yeah yeah you can make this change it's going to be okay you know you're asked for some change you want to make and they said it's okay and you you quote them on this and you sue them on this because later on basically when you actually do the change and it gets not accepted by the legal department of the EU then this project officer is liable with at least one year salary personally and you can imagine what I mean what this kind of situation does to your like giving good advice right it's a bit tricky like when you say something and you do it and then there's always this tension and I think it's not a very good idea but they try to actually make it harder for project officers to do harm to the EU budget okay I also said hacking funding I already mentioned when I talked about bureaucracy that I think there's a certain relation between software and bureaucracy both deal with categories both deal with like confining the world into certain like pieces and making relations and so on it's just that software automatically executes and and the bureaucracy that we know at least it's changing actually but it's it's it's executing but it executed by humans when I say hacking funding I mean hacking in the sense of understanding like you understand how something works how the process works how the rules are executed what is involved like the various pieces and then the other part of hacking is trying to use it for a good purpose sometimes also a bad purpose right but in general trying to let's say for your own purpose and it's your choice decentralization how is it possible that the EU as a kind of a centralist institution funds decentralization like how is that logic or something right and I'm not going to go too deep into this but I I mean there's there's several things you can say about this one thing is that the many people in the EU they are not happy with all these nation states and they to put it very bluntly they think that maybe decentralization is a way the Europe of regions or other things to actually you know get a more coherent thing and not so much focus on the nation states so it's basically a backdoor to to change culture and stuff like this the other thing is there's an intrinsic relation between centralization and decentralization and it depends on the context you look at youtube is a socially decentralized system I can choose which kind of videos I like to google hangouts I can choose whom to hang out with facebook I can choose which kind of friends I make but of course because we have this x-ray thing we like look through this and say well but it's all done by one entity who controls everything that doesn't mean that the social experience isn't actually very socially decentralized and that has been going on for a long time and one of the holy grails basically of of IT development is to make it finally possible that it doesn't need to be owned by by a single entity like such platforms can actually be collaboratively done right and and exist basically on on on all of our devices without and we collaborate and we maybe even have contracts how we do things but there's no need to actually have like this commercial entity that tries to capture all the value in terms of money between between social interactions and so but in the end like what most users actually experience and that's really something where you need to be very careful when you talk about decentralization most users actually feel they're decentralized I have my mobile I can't contact whoever I want so decentralization on that level is like the direct experience is actually decentralized it's only the problem that we know how it's actually operated right and that's understandable but I think it's important to to not think that people just don't understand they understand perfectly well it makes sense for them so I think when it comes to also this conference and also the IT community in general we have this and the topic is gated communities we have the Vatican problem right it's always this Vatican problem we're kind of like not so much at this conference I mean this is not I've been to other programming conferences where it's much stronger we're kind of like the bishops and you know discussing the world and and having ideas about grand like unifying theories how everything must be done and so on but there's only certain aspects of it here and the other is like more horizontal like hippie like whatever and diverse approach where you don't have a single ruling idea right you maybe have a single platform like this conference with lots of rooms and lots of possibilities but then what actually happens is again completely decentralized like it's up to us who we talk to how we got how we go about things and how this resolves I mean how can we get away from I would also say bureaucratic systems that rob people of agency that's a big question and I I think there's a number of people even in the like project officers in the EU who actually want to help us right so and they are actually explicitly interested I know this from at least one person in getting more interesting projects especially from contexts from like the CCC right so that's definitely something to go for so finally just made this picture this morning it's very nice it's because we have this more or less horizontal activities with a little bit of like you know big keynotes and stuff and stuff in the big room stuff and I think it's all a bit in the shadow of what Jean Youngblood called the broadcast right we have this big overarching broadcast that basically tries to order all of the world and integrate all of the activities into a certain what Jean Youngblood calls world system and that's a certain tension that I feel personally and since the Paris attacks I actually I didn't want to read any of this like this whole thing what they say in the target show or you know all the politicians and so on I said okay this is now a perfect opportunity to actually not listen to the broadcast anymore so I stepped away from all of this like be it Spiegel be it whatever I mean all of these broadcast media because I don't want to recreate myself in this image that they're painting to be part of that right I want to create my own contexts I want to have the time and maybe also the calm to actually to do this and go somewhere else okay thank you very much Hagar for this very nice talk we have 10 minutes for Q&A so if you have a question please line up at the four microphones while you're lining up we also have a question from our signal angel on IRC there is the question whether there are some examples available from the paperwork submitted like the 60 pages of maybe the successful proposals yes I think there are I'm not sure sometimes they are only the everything except for the budgeting like how the money is distributed that's so and then I mean there are basically hundreds out there if you send me a mail I can probably make you available at least two or three and I'm not sure if there's a public repository but it's it's a very good point because looking at successful proposals ideally some that got 15 out of 15 points to see how they are done it's a certain structure there's like three chapters excellence impact like how you're doing this stuff right and you can see this how it's done and how people actually describe things in examples like I said I'm not completely sure about a repository but also ask at the national contact point or if all else fails try to mail me and I can see what I can provide and since you're following the topic do you also maybe block about it I'm not following the topic I'm just getting some money I see the use value in this so I'm not an expert on this like I'm not one of I'm not operating a company that does advise on this right yeah I mean I don't know I'm not using Twitter currently but I might post something on the block I can't promise sorry yes there's a link for a proposal which was submitted successfully about open here and for anybody who is doing open data there's currently new project running where the call will last until August 2016 where I can get up to a hundred thousand if you're doing open data projects so that might be yes yeah I mean one thing I can offer is that the people who are interested to discuss a bit more in depth we can actually gather afterwards and go somewhere and talk a bit more about examples and some background information yes I want to know you said there was pipe high as an example you have any do you know of any other projects that might be known perhaps that got successfully funded and that yes no in use I mean there's there's increasingly many open source project but I think Fryfunk was involved I'm not sure what was called mesh something somebody here who knows no there's there's the open data there's also I think activities in the open data community and if you look for open source EU funded project you should find some examples and I think it's just getting more like I still remember that pi pi was one of the first bigger ones they actually funded with open source because there's this section in your proposal about intellectual property rights right like how many patents do you actually plan to submit and stuff like this and we were like zero no no but it's I think it's more usual like they understand open source and they want to have it so there's not really a big barrier there at all anymore another question from the from right microphone will you tell us something more about consortiums and consortium dynamics some especially what kind of consortium dynamics founders are looking for like I don't know just as an example if you like to play role-playing games you know you always need a cleric a warrior and a wizard what do you need for a consortium you already said it I think I know at least one or two persons who were involved in EU projects would I would consider kind of wizards that actually made things happen yeah there's also the warriors that actually try to fight for their budget and don't want to do actually much oh you didn't deliver in the last year yeah but we want to have money anyway and then you have this discussion in the consortium and you can either decide okay how we're going to justify this to the EU or you can put pressure on this entity and that all depends a bit so it's I think there's a number of examples and that's when you talk to people at universities you will get a lot of negative experiences right but I think it depends on how you do it I think the if you actually have people who want to do something together that's like it's like half at least or 70 percent of your success right if you have if you see it all through the lens of like companies and their budgets and you know the CEOs talking also I would say that yeah I mean I can I can talk maybe of the records of some disasters I know another question from the front left microphone it's not a question it's actually an answer there is no central repository of proposals but we published our winning proposal in entirety at opencare.cc and it got like 14.5 out of 15 so come and talk to us if you can you say a bit more about your project actually because you're some people asked okay so it's we're looking at community driven models of health and social care so what would a health and social care system look like if it were driven by communities wielding open technology and access to basically knowledge that was only accessible to either the market providers or the state so the whole proposal just go to opencare.cc download it including the budget whatever everything we sent in and come talk to us we're also at the adriders assembly ah cool okay very good thank you so you see it's it's actually possible you see another question from the front right microphone um a little more informational question about how is small company defined in the U how does it say for small companies easier to apply because the barrier is lower so how is small company defined how many employees are I think they are also fine with one person companies like I said I mean they don't want to have a consortium I'm pretty sure of seven one person companies they're not going to go with that so you'd have to have a kind of a mixture and there's one thing I didn't say clearly which is there's one company which is the ringmaster which is the coordinator company and that is the primary contact of the EU and that usually needs to be some institution that knows how to deal with this EU interaction so the EU usually much prefers having an experienced company there it also usually wants to have a university or two and then companies but some of the companies can be very small that's fine microphone front left in the case of of this criteria impact I'm wondering how difficult it is for for projects about privacy or for social good to argue here so in the case of the next sleep project how did you argue that this economic benefit well we basically stated that there is a demand for privacy preserving technology but it's currently too hard to actually get something usable and so it's also part of the project is about usability and also developing basically the core open source technologies in order to build products with it and there's also I mean there's various applications that have millions of downloads even on mobile phones and so on that are privacy preserving today so it's you can make the case basically that doing something in this area maybe also relating it to opinion polls like public opinion polls has an impact on a tangible benefit for European citizens right and you can also make this I mean we did this argument that can actually also help but will also help product development that people can actually it's helping the citizens it's okay it's not must not have only the markets and no no I mean market needs to be in there like I said I mean that's just the framing we are in is the broadcast we are in is actually market liberal so you can probably go a bit I mean market liberals also kind of a big range right I mean some people focus more on the liberal part and some people more on the market part and I think you have some freedom there and how you exactly describe it but you must relate to it the impact is also about economics we have time for a few more quick questions from the front right microphone microphone sorry can you please repeat the question that's the that's the country where you incorporated in matter in getting funding yes you need to have European companies usually you need to know sorry you need to have companies who are incorporated in the EU and plus some associated member states I think Switzerland is also possible and some others and there's also some programs that deal with collaboration with Japan you know going all the way back to the second world war and I don't know it's not really no I'm just wondering why it's Japan why not something else I mean whatever yeah but inside and it's and it's Brazil and I think but otherwise basically the main carriers of the main carriers of the the main carriers of the consortium need to be in Europe you can employ people from other countries like from the US and we're doing this we actually get them they don't mind because it's kind of like getting good people here is a good idea sorry but there's not like a higher likelihood to get funding if you're example from Germany or no it's I only know that Germany somehow manages to get a buff proportional payback I don't know if there's how they do this or if it's just because there's more proposals I think there's a quite big support industry and in Germany and also I think a lot of activities actually that qualify but yeah it's it's there's no I think sometimes there are there calls they explicitly say we want to have at least one participant from Greece or from Spain or some category so there are sometimes special conditions on the calls that actually do this but usually it's the whole of the EU and you need to have usually three different countries involved we're all out of time thank you very much Holger for this very insightful talk please give me a one more with the bus