 Hello, Annie. How are you doing today? I'm good, Chris. How are you? I am so excited because we've been trying to do this for a while. And now we are here to talk about your phenomenal book that I binged in, like, a day or two, The Extended Mind. So for those who have yet to read this fantastic book, can you kind of talk about what inspired you to write this book? Sure. Yeah. So I'm a journalist who covers research on learning and cognition. And so I read pretty widely and across a bunch of fields about research on how we can think better, how we can think more effectively, more intelligently. And I was finding a lot of related research and looking for a way to pull it together. What the theme that I kept seeing was that are the thinking doesn't just happen in our brains, that we do a lot of thinking with our bodies, with the spaces that we're in, with the other people that we're in contact with. And then I came across an article by two philosophers, Andy Clark and David Chalmers, called The Extended Mind. And that they proposed exactly that, that the mind does not stop at the boundaries of the skull, that we think with our surroundings, with our body below the neck, you know, and with our relationships with other people. And this to me was a really exciting idea, a really provocative idea. And so that became kind of the the overarching idea behind the book that I wrote. Yeah. So so do me a do me a favor and kind of explain that to me, because that's where I got confused, right? So there's a lot of debate and like philosophical debate about the mind. But we we we perceive the mind as being inside the brain. And the subtitle is the power of thinking outside the brain. So how are you defining like, you know, when we're talking about the mind outside of the body, because doesn't even if like, you know, we're and we'll dive into some of these topics, but like walking in nature, these things that influence us. Doesn't that just funnel back into the brain? How does that work for sure? Yeah. I mean, the brain that you could kind of think of the brain is like the orchestra conductor who's like, you know, drawing in all these, you know, tapping this resource and then that resource, it all comes back through the brain for sure. And I'm not saying that the brain isn't important or that the brain isn't the central organ through which all these resources are passed. But it's not the case that it's the brain alone that's doing all our thinking. And, you know, the brain is this it is amazing. It is incredible, you know, all those things that science writers like to say about it. But it's also really limited. The biological brain on its own, you know, isn't that great at grappling with counterintuitive or abstract concepts? It's not that great at remembering information precisely. It's not that great at paying attention over long periods of time, as we know, you know. So so our brains on their own are going to let us down unless we transcend their limits by bringing in these other resources into the brain to sort of enhance and augment the brain's own abilities and to sort of allow it to overachieve. Yeah. So so do you think it's kind of limiting us to just think of the brain as just this thing like in between our ears and like with with everything you talk about in the book, when we go outside, it kind of expands like what we know about, you know, remembering and intelligence and how we could do all these things better. Like it's not limiting it to just the things like just sitting around and just thinking like this, you know what I mean? Yeah, the mind is much bigger than the brain. That is the that is the message of my book. And if you think about it this way, if you're limiting yourself to the brain, then you're sitting there at your desk, you're like, I just have to work my brain to figure this out. I'm not going to get up until it's done. And that's actually not a very effective way to tackle a problem. When you think about the mind being bigger than the brain, all of a sudden you have all these other options like you could go for a walk, you could gesture, you could move your body, you could have a conversation or a debate or a teaching session with somebody else. And all suddenly have all these other options for getting thinking done instead of just sitting there and working your brain, which, you know, can be very frustrating. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Like the majority of your book, because I'm an audio listener, like I listen, like I go for morning walks, right? Like around my neighborhood a couple of miles and everything like that. And and yeah, it helps me kind of retain and think and all sorts of stuff. Because like you said, like when we just kind of sit there, like it feels it feels like we get stuck a lot. And and so some of some of this, like I because I'm extremely interested in all this stuff, too, and how to think and, you know, all this because I just got really interested in human irrationality and just the weird stuff we do, you know? Yeah, yeah. So I'm curious, like how how would you define intelligence? That's something I'm really interested in from just like different people and their input, right? There's so many different factors, like what do you look for? Like how do you define like your own intelligence? Or if I'm like I want to like I was talking with David Robson about this, like if I'm trying to find a business partner, how do I know they're intelligent enough to get into it? You know, like what should we look for in our own intelligence or the intelligence of others? Yeah, that's a good question, because, you know, so often we regard intelligence as this sort of fixed lump of stuff that people have in their head that we can measure and rank and compare. And to me, that's not a very useful way of thinking about intelligence. I'm a lot more interested in what does your intelligence allow you to do in the world? You know, so to me, intelligence is about thinking that is effective, thinking that solves problems, thinking that creates new possibilities. Like that to me is intelligence, whether or not you're scoring well on a test or not, you know, because that to me is really a very unsatisfying proxy for intelligence. When what we really want to know is how effective is this person in the world at making productive things happen? Yeah, yeah, it's it's it feels like it's very subjective. And in a second, I want to talk about how we kind of like teach kids and what we can do to help kids learn better and all this stuff. But do you think that there are kind of like this kind of conventional wisdom around intelligence? Like what I always think about is, you know, when we look at like a doctor or a brain surgeon or something like that, we're like intelligent, right, a lot of school like, you know, and all this. But, you know, a plumber can do something that like a surgeon can't. A car mechanic, right? So do you think that, you know, on the on the broader conversation of how we view intelligence, like the conversation around that needs to kind of change in who we put into the box of intelligent and we focus on the wrong thing sometimes? I absolutely do. And I think we really unfairly discount the kind of intelligence in particular that comes with working with one's hands. And that's a very old bias in our culture that says that, you know, mental work is superior in some way to the kind of work that we do with our bodies because we have this mind body split. But, you know, part of what I wanted to do with my book is to say, no, actually thinking is a full body experience. You know, we think with our bodies and when we cut that off and we say that, no, thinking is only what happens up here. We're actually really missing out on a lot of what makes humans so intelligent, so effective, so productive in the world. And I'd love to see that bias challenged and overcome. Yeah, yeah, that's something I try to think about a lot because it feels like we put a lot of evidence, like our emphasis on, you know, like college and traditional education, which I think is extremely important. Like, for example, my girlfriend, she's in her master's program for social work and like she needs the schooling. Like she's going to be working with people, you need licensing and all this. But sometimes it feels like we put too much emphasis on it. But there's someone who's like, you know, has a certain trade that they've been developing their whole life that they wouldn't really learn in a school. But yeah, so on the on the topic of schools, I, you know, I'm the father of a 12 year old kid. So I'm always thinking about, you know, just him and his education. And every guest I have on here, I was talking with somebody yesterday, every guest I have on here, like there's different ideas for what we should do with schools. Right. And on the topic of intelligence, it feels like, you know, the school system, even since I was a kid, there's a huge emphasis on memory. Right. So you sit and and I'm sure you dealt with this while you're in college, like you'll study all night, cramming. What do you memorize? And you know, like, and I remember just history classes and dates and all these other things. And I'm like, who cares? So when it comes to memory, I know you talk a lot about things that can improve our memory. But what do you think the correlation is between memory and recalling facts like a Jeopardy champion who remembers all these random things and just the other ways we kind of been talking about intelligence? How important do you think memory and memorization is? Yeah. Well, in conventional schooling, there has been a huge emphasis on rote memorization. And I think the research is pretty clear that that is is a limited way to learn. It doesn't promote the kind of higher thinking, deeper thinking that we want our students to develop. At the same time, I'm not one of those people who says, oh, now that we have Google, we don't have to know anything, we can just look it up. You know, and I always the example that I use to show to me the fallacy of that is to say, OK, you can one at a time look up in Google translate the word in another language that you're trying to say. But if does that mean you can now speak that language? You know, you actually need to know those words, know the grammar and you need to have lots and lots of practice in speaking that language before you could ever say that you're fluent. And there's something similar going on with becoming an expert in any field is that experts both have a lot of knowledge committed to memory. And they also have the skills and the sort of in the moment ability to to work with that information and apply it in flexible ways. So, you know, drill drills and rote memorization without any deeper meaning behind it are definitely not a good way to learn. But it's it's when it's not at all the case that we don't need to know anything anymore because it's all in the cloud. Yeah, so it's it's kind of like this balance, right? Like being able to remember, but also have this kind of practical application for it and all that. Yeah, I know that definitely that definitely makes sense. And I'm curious your thoughts, too. So like I come from like, you know, a mental health background. And, you know, that's a whole different conversation is, you know, the rise in ADHD diagnoses with children and stuff. But so much of your book talks about like movement and even talking with your hands and gestures and everything and something, you know, that that's becoming more part of the conversation is, you know, there's this idea in school that kids need to sit still, learn, right? Sit in their desk, you know, they have their free time. They have like, you know, their playground time, their recess. But do you do you think or do you have a hope or anything like that for for schools to become a little bit less rigid with how structured it is? And if there is a kid who learns better through movement or something like that, like, do you have any thoughts on what schools in particular, like, I don't know, just specifically like elementary and middle school for younger kids might be able to do without driving other kids in the classroom and say, yeah, yeah. Well, there still is this idea out there. This notion that in order to do real thinking, you should be sitting still, you know, and the idea is that a good classroom and effective classroom is one where students are sitting still at their desks. And I I do think that that's changing, that people are realizing that for one thing, it consumes mental bandwidth to actually inhibit that urge to move. So that's, you know, that much less brain power that you don't have to apply that students don't have to apply to their work. So I do think you're right that there needs to be some serious thought given to how do we allow for movement in the classroom without making it disruptive for other students. But there are definitely ways to incorporate movement even into the learning of academic material itself so that it's not something that happens on the edges. It's actually an integral part of the of the learning. And that that is, you know, in a way, killing a few birds with one stone because you're getting that movement, you're getting that alertness that comes with physical activity. And you're also tapping that embodied cognition wherein we remember things better, we pay attention better, we understand things better when we've connected them to bodily movement. Yeah. And that makes me curious about this. So as as, you know, many people know, I just plow through books. I read like I'm on like two hundred thirty five of the year, right? And I only do audio books because I can't just sit with a book. It drives me insane. So like I mentioned, I listen while I'm walking this morning before we even have this conversation. I'll play video games while I'm listening to books. I'll, you know, be playing like little apps on my phone. But anyways, there's, you know, like stuff that's come out like, you know, fidget spinners or little fidget cubes and all that. And I'm not I can't remember if you discuss this in the book. But is there any research around like doing something as we're learning? Because I like when I when I just sit still, I can't retain anything. I'm not paying attention, my mind wanders. But if I'm playing a video game, I could play a video game for like two hours and listen to half a book, you know what I mean? So so what what's the research say around that stuff? Is it is it helpful or I don't know for many people, it is helpful. I do write in the book about fidgeting. And again, there's a social bias against, you know, against fidgeting, we had this idea that it means someone's not paying attention or their their jittery or kind of they need to calm down or stop moving. And actually what fidgeting is, is this very fine grained way of modulating our arousal, our physiological arousal. It's like it's just it's not that different from drinking a cup of coffee so that you can pay attention. You're kind of giving yourself some stimulation. It's just stimulation of a physical motor kind. And fidgeting allows you to precisely kind of modulate the level of stimulation that you're getting that is ideal for your brain and how you pay attention. So lots of kids and lots of adults need to move in order to learn. And that's that's an accommodation or an understanding that we really need to incorporate into education and the workplace, I think. Yeah, it's something I'm, you know, trying to be mindful of with my son because like you like you mentioned, there's this kind of like I don't even know if stigma is the right word. But like if you're doing something else, you're not paying attention. It's something that I've always done. And like one of my favorite things is just kind of like a little sassy thing. When someone thinks I wasn't paying attention because I was doing something else like a repeat, like verbatim like no, I was I was just doing other stuff, you know. And yeah, it's fun messing with my girlfriend about that. But she's kind of seeing that I can retain information even though it seems like I'm doing something else. And not even even though because you're doing sounds like, I mean, you really need to have that other thing going on. It sounds like to to tune in fully to the second thing. Yeah, so and that's, you know, that's that's the whole thing. Because, you know, I have some guests coming on this week just talking about mental health and mental illness and stuff like that. And, you know, it feels like, I don't know, just on the larger conversation. That's what I love about your book is like all of us parents, teachers, employers, all of us need to kind of start destigmatizing, you know, movement or distraction or, you know, because you talk about even standing desks and stuff like that. Like I remember I remember when standing desk first came out even like the treadmill desk. I'm like, what a pretentious, like, you know what I mean? Yeah, but through reading your book, I was like, oh, OK. Like it's just people's different learning styles and what works for them. And that brings me to my next question. Through all your research on this book, like you, you went in there and you read a bajillion studies and I'm sure there's some stuff that you took away from it, like what is what are your favorite little tricks or tools that have helped you like with your work now? Like, yeah, when you're thinking. Yeah, well, you're right. I did read exactly a bajillion studies. It felt like a bajillion is about the right number. But and in order to, you know, keep all those studies in mind and draw all the conclusions that I needed from those studies, I really had to do what I write about in the book as cognitive offloading. The you know, we try to do too many things in our heads. We don't and when really it's so much more effective and helpful to offload the contents of our minds onto physical space in some way. You know, whether that's a big whiteboard or a bunch of post-it notes, that is my my favorite mode actually is like putting a thought or a fact on one each on each post-it note and then being able to move around those those post-it notes, being able to navigate through them, you know, like kind of remember like, oh, yeah, this one was over here. You're like employing your spatial memory. Like and all of those resources are lost when you're just sitting there trying to think do it all inside your head, you know, so for me, cognitive offloading in the sense of like, OK, I really need to get all of this out of my head and onto paper or onto post-it notes or onto a bulletin board. Those that that really works for me. Yeah, OK. All right. So now now I need a little advice from you. So as I mentioned, yeah, like I read a ton and I read on just a diverse range of subjects. Like this morning I was reading one about just like prison reform. And then I was reading a book from like Bruce Hood about, you know, the idea of self and all these other things. So I'm bouncing around from topic to topic. And I'm not even a thousand percent sure why I do it or what I'm using it for. Aside from having these lovely conversations with people like you, Annie. But I'm curious because, you know, I take notes as I listen to my books. That's the audible app or the other apps I use. I could take notes so I can come back and interviews and all that. But for example, I've been trying to get back into my own writing lately because as I'm listening, you know, I'm getting ideas and I want to have conversations about some of the topics from the book. So I'm wondering, like, how do I cognitively off load? Like it maybe I should try your strategy with like hosted notes all over, but I don't know if I need a special room that's just like blank. Or what? Like, what would you what would you tell a guy like me? Well, since you do seem to respond so well to audio, I wonder if you could use the note taking app on your phone and record your thoughts as you speak them. Maybe that and then you could listen to them. I wonder if that would be helpful to you because, you know, we tend to it's part of our brain centric bias in society that we really overvalue written written language and symbols, you know, because those seem more abstract or elevated or intellectual. But actually, you know, the more of your senses that you can draw into your thinking, the better you'll remember things and the more thoroughly you'll grasp things. So it might be that hearing your own words as you speak them and maybe as you play them back later, it could be helpful for you. Yeah. But you know, what's really interesting, Annie, that you bring that up is lately since I started the podcast before I post I go back and do my editing, relisting to it. It's a brand new experience because when I'm in the conversation, you know, I'm thinking about, you know, what you're saying. How do I ask the next question? I'm thinking about the audience. I'm thinking about you and all this. But when I get to just sit back and listen to how I responded and, you know, what you say and all that, that is really helpful. So I might I might try that. And then I'll keep I'll keep you posted on it. You know, there's a science of learning finding behind that, too, which is that you're when you encounter the same material repeatedly, but at spaced out intervals, you know, that really helps you remember it and understand it better. So in a way, you're you're doing that just by, you know, formulating the questions, then having the interview, then then editing the interview, you're having these repeated exposures to the same material that's really helping you understand and digest the material. You know, Annie, I think the reason I wanted you on so much is so you can help me you can help me because I felt crazy. When I when people find out how many books I listen to, you know, first off, it's like, well, that's not really reading, you know, because like you said, we put this emphasis on, you know, and I'm just like, well, what's the point of reading? It's to get new information. So no matter what it is, you know what I mean? Like, I'm going to say, you know, like these other things aren't technically learning, but but the other one is the other question I get is, are you even retaining any of the information? But I actually read books like yours. And I don't know if you've ever read that book, make it stick. But it's about I love that book. Yeah. Yeah. That's what I first heard about recalling the information. Like when you set up a little gap and then you bring it back. Like, that's what's important to me. And that's why I like writing about what I've learned or before this, I was doing YouTube videos where I would teach people. Like, that's why I love teaching people because it's really helping me by recalling the information and putting it into practical. So so when I talk with you, Annie, I feel seen and I feel understood. So I might just I might hit you up with just some therapeutic value. You know, that has been the overwhelming response to my book. And it was not one that I expected, but it's people saying, oh, my gosh, I found my way to a lot of these techniques already, but I didn't know why they worked. I didn't know the scientific rationale for why they worked. And I'm so glad you validated for me what I already find works for me. Yeah. And it helps me just hearing that other people are having that experience. You know what I mean? There's so many things that just again, does seem like conventional wisdom are just set into our cultural norms. And, you know, that's why I love like all the advances in research because we find like, hey, maybe maybe that's not the case. So yeah. And something else that I've been talking with a lot of people about is just having conversations and everything. And I recently had Amanda Ripley on for her book High Conflict. And it seems like conflict like I'm somebody who shied away from conflict. I hate conflict and all this. But, you know, you sell me and everybody else who reads the book on why we need to collaborate and work together. So, for example, one of the one of the things you talk about is this idea of constructive controversy and some of the research and I would get students more engaged. So can you kind of explain that real quick and how that's beneficial, this constructive controversy? Yes. Yeah. Emphasis on constructive, right? Because certainly a lot of controversy out there that's not constructive and not not helping anybody. But yeah. So the idea there is that, you know, say you're watching a movie or reading a novel. If that novel or movie didn't have any conflict in it, if there wasn't something somebody, something something somebody wanted but couldn't get or like, you know, some kind of journey or some kind of challenge, it would be totally boring. And you would just be like, forget this. This is I'm not going to spend my time on this. And yet we expect students and people in the workplace to attend information that is totally drained of any kind of human conflict or, you know, interest really, because we're like, well, this is how it is. A, B, C, D just learn this, you know, and it's really it just no wonder people tune out. No wonder people aren't engaged, not motivated. So in almost every kind of scenario or situation, there is a conflict. There's there's, you know, a challenge that needs to be overcome or a difference of opinion that can be explored. And so the idea behind constructive controversy is don't leave that out. You know, bring that back into the material that people are learning. That's what makes people interested and engaged. And it's what makes them want to know more and find out more. So, you know, for the same kind of motivations that lead us to pay attention to things in our free time, you know, to movies or books, we can bring those use those same techniques to get people involved in what they need to learn for school or for their jobs. Yeah. So here's what I'm curious about. I'm not sure if you've run into this. Maybe maybe I'm sure you have. So I am always trying to think of all angles of arguments or ideas and thoughts and stuff like that, even if I want a hundred percent agree with somebody, I try to think of a counterpoint just to get a deeper understanding, you know what I mean, even if it's for my own benefits. But here's my here's my concern, right? For this constructive controversy that I'm just going to come off like this weird contrarian, right? Where I'm just like just challenging everything. But but I feel like that's the best way for not only for me to understand, but for the other person to even start thinking about their own beliefs and thoughts and ideas and stuff like that. I think what I've noticed is like and I'm this is where I'm wondering if you've run into this, we a lot of us get instantly defensive, right? When you just it feels like sometimes when we're just asking a question, we feel challenged or ego defensiveness just go up. So is that more of a us problem or do we need to start talking about this together? I'm not sure. Hmm. Hmm. Well, I think, you know, as you say, people when they feel like they're being. Uh, maybe their credibility is being questioned or their values are being questioned. That that will bring up people's defenses. But I think there's a way to kind of put a problem or a challenge or an issue in a space between two people and say, let's look at this together. You know, let's look at it from let's move around it. Let's look around it. Let's look at it from every angle so that it's really the question or the issue becomes the thing that you both are looking at together and trying to work out in terms of getting closer to to a shared truth. You know, rather than this is a battle between you and me over who's right and who's wrong. Yeah. Yeah. Just just even this morning, you know, someone was disagreeing with me. It was it was on Twitter and I keep learning that, you know, the Internet is terrible. But I what I try to do is say, hey, shoot me an email. Let's have like a one on one kind of discussion. So when it comes to thinking in groups, like, I know, I know, like I need other people around to challenge my thinking and everything like that. But in this age of like polarization and we see tribalism everywhere, my biggest fear, Annie, is group think and conformity. Right. So where where do we find that balance where, you know, obviously we're encouraging people like, hey, don't think about yourself. Think with others. But yeah, like, how does a group even know when they're stuck in this echo chamber of confirmation bias and all that? Like, how do we how do we keep an eye out for that? That is a really important question, Chris. And I'm not sure that I have the answer to it, except that I would say that a lot of the way the group think happens is that it's led by a leader. You know, they're a leader expresses his views and everybody else in the room has an incentive, a motivation to agree with that leader to support his point of view. And that's a lot of how group think happens. And so one way around that is to have the leader not go first, you know, and to actually to find ways to solicit and welcome in the views of other people, especially those who might shy shy away from speaking or who might have less stat less status, less education, you know, less experience. Those people's perspectives are valuable too. And sometimes, you know, my my view in general about group dynamics is that they're not we don't think intentionally enough about how to structure group interactions. We tend to throw a bunch of people together in a conference room and be like, OK, talk, you know, and what happens inevitably are like these dynamics where the everyone looks to the leader, everyone starts parroting what he says, we need to be a lot more thoughtful and intentional about structuring our interaction so that we are really deliberately making sure we hear from everybody in the group and that the leaders influence is not undo influence such that, you know, everyone else's voices get silenced. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I forgot which organization it was, but maybe it was Warren Buffett or something, but they like somebody's job is just devil's advocate. So nobody can nobody's allowed to judge them or get mad. Yeah. But no matter what the meeting is, they their job is to just bring up the counterpoint. And I've heard people, you know, like Amy Duke, where they talk about, like, you know, the the pre mortem and stuff, right? You know, all these ideas, like, what is the worst second? You know, like, I think it's important to. But yeah, kind of like with what you're saying, like with the structure, like, you have to foster this because I immediately think like, you know, when you discuss this in the book is there's these prejudice issues and biases and there might be people where you do structure it, but they feel like if they vocalize that, there might be some kind of backlash or or, you know, whatever. So yeah, it's almost like there's this kind of layered approach. You have to create the environment with the structure. And right, right. Imagine being imagine being that devil's advocate guy, you know, even though everyone knows it's your role, they everyone kind of hits that guy. Right. Like, oh, there he goes again. Yeah, they don't invite him to hang out and stuff like that. I only I only have a couple more quick, quick, quick questions for you. I wanted to talk with you real quick about experts because you have a chapter about thinking with experts. And it is literally one of the most important things in my life because as a recovering drug addict and alcoholic, I was taught to learn from other people who who have done this before. Right. And most programs you get, you know, a sponsor and all sorts of stuff. Right. But on the other side of it, I a while back became obsessed with the work of Philip Tepok, where we find out that experts don't aren't always the best. So right. So one of my last questions for you is how how would you recommend that we we vet an expert when we're thinking with an expert and learning from them or like finding a mentor or whoever, whoever it is. Like, for example, I asked you for some advice earlier about how I can better, you know, structure my thoughts about this information. How do I vet you? How do I know Andy's the real deal? Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, my my emphasis in the book is actually less on distinguishing among experts and pointing out that an expert by virtue of being an expert is not is often not able to articulate what they know. Because the on the path to becoming an expert, their knowledge and their skill and their expertise has become automatized. Like that's why they're able to do things so effortlessly and easily because they're not even really thinking about it anymore. It's like second nature to them. So then when a novice comes to them and says, how do I do this thing that you do? It's actually very hard for them an expert to explain how they do what they do because they no longer have conscious access to that. So my my point about learning with experts is that we need to find ways to break down an expert's expertise to allow them to remember what it was like to be a novice to put themselves in the in the beginner's shoes and say, oh, OK, this is, you know, I know how to do this so well that. But I know you don't know how to do it so well. So let me break it down for you. And that's something that we don't because our systems of education and workplace training rely so much on experts teaching novices, which makes sense in a way. But there's a built in problem with an expert teaching a novice. And one more thing I'll say about that is that that's one reason that someone who's closer to appear to you like maybe someone who's just one step beyond you is often a really excellent way to learn because they they have more knowledge than you do. But they remember what it was like to be a novice. And I think that's part of the strength of those a type models where you have somebody who can really had had really recent experience with what you're going through, but is a few steps beyond where you are. Yeah, and you just worded that so perfectly because it made me remember, like, you know, when I when I first got sober and they're like, look at people who have like 20 years sober and I was trying to stay sober for like 20 days and I saw people who had 30, 60, 90 days. I'm like, OK, what are they doing? How do you reach that point? Right. You know, but, you know, the last thing I'll say about that is like, now that I have nine years, it's something that I'm regularly trying to do when, you know, somebody reaches out and says, hey, I have a friend or a family member who's struggling and stuff, because my instant reaction is like, hey, dummy, just quit doing drugs. You know what I mean? But I have to get back into that beginner's. It was hard, right? Yeah, you have to remember it was hard. Yeah. And even as even as a father when I'm teaching my son stuff, you know, I want to expect he's 12 years old. I want to expect him to be as the life knowledge of a 36 year old man and all that. But yeah. So my last my last question for you is I'm always curious about that. When you were writing this book, who who do you hope gets this book reads it? Like, is it is it like companies? Is it people trying to work their way up the corporate ladder? Is it teachers and parents so they could better help kids? Is it people who just like learning about weird stuff? Like, who who's in your mind as you're writing? What's what's your target audience? And I know I hope everybody gets it. But right. Who do you hope every author feels like? Well, everybody should read it. You know, I have a special place in my heart for teachers because I just I think they do the most important work in the world and they're not as appreciated by our society as they should be not as rewarded for the incredibly hard work they do. And it's been really gratifying to me to see the responsive teachers to this book because they think about this stuff a lot. They think a lot about how do I get this information into my kids heads? How do I help a whole bunch of diverse learners, you know, master this material? And so if my book can help them give them some new approaches and some new ways of thinking about learning, like, then I feel like I've done my job. Yeah, no, no, absolutely. I come from a family of teachers. Maybe that's why I like teaching people through all this stuff. But yeah, absolutely. So so, Annie, I appreciate you coming on so much. So for everybody out there, where where can they get the book? And how do they keep up with you and upcoming projects? Because this isn't your only book. And I'm sure after a little bit of a break, you might get back to work. So where could people follow you today? Yeah, so you can get the book anywhere, you know, Amazon and all the others. But to talk to be in touch with me, I'm on Twitter, which is where you found me, Chris, and Annie Murphy, Paul at Annie Murphy, Paul. And I have a website. W W W dot Annie Murphy, Paul dot com, where I post the stuff that I write. And that's another good place to reach me. Beautiful. Yeah. And I'll link all that down in the description. So yeah, Annie, I appreciate it so much. And I'm so glad we were able to finally connect. So thank you so much for coming on, Chris. Oh, you're so welcome. This was really fun. Awesome. We'll do it again sometime. OK, yeah, when that next book comes out.