 Threats of attacks are issued by stakeholders in the Niger Delta, especially Delta State, over the support of the ban on open grazing in southern parts of the country. And Lagos State experiences an increase in insecurity as cases of robberies intensify. This is PlusPolitik and I am Mary-Anna Corn. Tensions are high right now in Delta State as residents of Assaba, the state capital, received a threat letter by Fulani jihadists to attack the capital city if Gov. Fian Yokoa does not redraw his support for the ban on open grazing in the southern parts of the country within 72 hours. In response to this, the movement of emancipation of the Niger Delta mend warned that Fulani's and their belongings would cease to exist if the jihadists make good on their threats. Now, this comes as a 48-hour quick notice was issued by the Euro-use Leaders Association to all Fulani jihadists to immensely or immediately, I beg your pardon, stop open grazing and remove their cattle from Delta's sanitary district. Meheti Alaw has spoken also saying that the statement is coming from mischief makers who are out to tarnish the image of Fulani's. Well, the support point of issues and joining us to discuss this is Ankyo Briggs, a Niger Delta activist and Dennis Amakri, a former assistant director of the DSS. Thank you very much gentlemen and lady for joining us. Thank you. All right, so I'm going to start with you, Mr. Amakri, because I mean, all of this is stemming from the insecurity that we have been experiencing, just, you know, in the Northwest, but it's spreading across the country. And the Niger Delta use in Delta State have decided that they want to serve a quick notice to the people, the Fulani's who live in Delta State. But let's look at the legality of their statement. Do they have a right to tell the so-called Fulani jihadists, if there be any, who are domiciled in Delta State to leave the state? First of all, thank you for having me here. I think that the youths in Delta State should be very cautious because I think somebody is trying to lure them into something bigger, a trap, so to say. Because I don't believe in that particular leaflet that is flying all over the place. It has been analysed and we find out that, first of all, you know, Fulani jihadists don't refer to themselves as Fulani jihadists, you know. And for that note to be flying around, I think there's something fishy about that particular note. So they have to be very careful in analysing it, instead of carrying out something that we all will start to worry about later. So you're telling me that you believe, because I was going to ask that question, if this could be certain people taking advantage of the insecurity situation and the fact that their ethnic tensions also colouring this insecurities that we're experiencing. The president did make mention of these certain people when he was giving his Democracy Day speech saying that there are people who are hiding or flying under the radar to cause perpetrator all kinds of violence and stoke the fire. Could these be the same sets of people Mr. President was referring to? Exactly. You know, there are people who really want this country to break up or who really want it to, you know, to slide it down the hill that it is sliding on. And you know, cause more problems. Anywhere they find out that it's a bit quiet, they try to raise some issues so that the whole country will fall into some kind of, you know, chaos. So I don't believe in that paper. I know that the security agencies are trying to locate exactly who wrote it and who is the person so that they could prosecute the person. So I think we have to be cautious about these kind of people that are all over the place. This is the season and a lot of people are enjoying the chaos. Interesting. Let me come to you, Ms. Anchor Briggs. Let's give a bit of a background to all that's happening across the country. The case of the ban on open grazing by 17 state governors in the south of Nigeria as against the other governors who have not said anything or kicked against it, this was the basis of the conversation in the first instance. Then Mr. President's live interview on a rice television where he did say that he's totally in support of open grazing and he gave the SGF or the AGF a mandate of sorts to reclaim the land for open grazing routes. What does this mean, you know, when governors have taken a stand because also in the same breath, the president had accused state governors of sitting back and wanting the federal government to do their job for them in terms of securing the estates. Now if state governors have decided to take this move of banning open grazing and deciding that this is what they want in the estates and the president is opposing it, is the president not talking from both sides of his mouth here? Good evening everyone. The reality is that Nigeria is in a mess from the north of Nigeria to the south, to the east, to the west of Nigeria. Nigeria is in a mess, it's in a security mess. The federal government itself has found it difficult to resolve the mess that Nigeria is in and this has led to where we are today. Now answering your questions, first of all the president himself cannot say to Nigerians that we should not be worried when we hear this type of threat. I do lean into the thought and the thinking that this may not be a real threat by people who really want to threaten if you like Delta State, but the reality is that we do have situations where we have an issue with jihadists in Nigeria. So when you hear this threat you cannot say that people should not be worried. On that note, we can also say that the threat, the counter threat if you like, that seems to have come from men we should also say that that also should be discounted because it sounds also like this is not from the real men. Now a president of a country that is insisting that there must be open grazing and trying to force it on the states and then coming around to say that he's going to support open grazing on one hand and then this threat comes along on the other. It's a mess. It's a mess that he himself is unable to resolve and while it is good for us to be comforted and it is easy for us to say that this is not a real threat we cannot run away from the fact that it may actually be a threat. We've had all kinds of threats from Fulani headsmen, from Mietyala from all kinds of people known and unknown. So we have to face the reality that Nigeria is in a security mess and it must start with the president. The president is the one on whose table this issue is and he has to resolve the problem. The president is not here so I'm going to play the devil's advocate on behalf of the president and I'm not a spokesperson for the president I'd just like to put that out there. The last time the president spoke before this democracy day interview and before he came to Lagos the president spoke to INEC officials and he did say clearly, I remember playing that video here that he has done his best. For service chiefs to be chained he has done that. He has spoken and he has talked tough so what else do we want him to do? And he's asked us to judge him fairly on how he has handled this issue so again I'm throwing it back to you because you're saying the box stops to the president while I'm telling you what the president said he's done his best, he's dealing with the situation what else do you want him to do please? When anybody says they have done their best it's good for them to admit that they have done their best but that best may not be good enough and in this case that is the way that it looks it is not good enough. This president and this party came on board on the flyers that they are going to put an end to insecurity now the insecurity that was on ground before they came and the level of insecurity that is on ground today that has swept across the north has swept into the south west has come into the south east and is moving into the Niger Delta is not good enough and so whether he admits that he has done his best or not it stops on his table and right now that best is just not good enough. Let me come back to you Mr. Macri there seems to be those who may have taken the president's bits and pieces of Mr. President's statement on Democracy Day especially on the open grazing ban there could have been some people who have taken it as a knot to continue to take laws into their hands to continue to openly graze because you know the president seems to be the commander in chief and he has given a knot to open grazing so they're dammings they seem to be damming the consequences all the actions that might be taken on them by states so do you see that this might just be another case that we will have to deal with in the coming days? Well the president himself has said it that the governors are responsible and I think we have to hold him to that because when you look at it the governors have come out to say that no open grazing if I remember very well the president was referring to a law that used to be effective in northern Nigeria for open grazing and cattle routes those ones have been cancelled out I think Oh I think the internet just froze Mr. Makri there but let me go back to Ankyo I think we'll come back to Makri to answer that question but Ms. Briggs, the spokesperson for Mieti Ala was heard speaking today reacting to that message that allegedly came from Fulani jihadists just as Mr. Makri said jihadists would not refer to himself as the jihadists but they have said that the people in Delta State should discount that message or whatever letter it was being that Mieti Ala or Fulani's would not be making those kind of threats but then in that same breath he also kicked against the governors of the southern parts of the country who have put a ban on open grazing they are saying that that ban is not just a ban on open grazing but they think that this is some form of a hate ban on Fulani's going towards that area what's your take? I mean quite honestly they can't have it all they cannot have it both ways they cannot have their cake and also eat it or whatever the case may be the reality is this they cannot deny a circumstances when it suits them and I own it when it also suits them for them to on the one hand state that they do not agree with the statement with the law that has been passed across southern Nigeria by the 17,000 state governors that the president has told that they are in charge of their state and therefore should take care of security and one of the things they have done is to say that no open grazing now you can't say that that is not the right thing for them to do so for him to say on the one hand we should discontent it and not worry about it and then on the other hand take the same posture of threat and the same posture of disregard for what the people of southern Nigeria and Niger Delta want is not acceptable I still maintain that is our reality today in the Niger Delta that Nigeria is in a mess a security mess and all of us are victims of this security mess and the people that seem to be on the right side of this mess is the headsman you hear the army begging Boko Aram to lay down their arms and come and take Amnesty I mean come on I don't know what do we do because the truth is there are Fulani's who have lived amongst us for example in Kosovo states they have a whole community and they have they've married from the states and they have had children who have become part of that society can we just blanketly say that oh this is a Fulani problem yes we know that majority of them are herders but how do we make sure that these people who genuinely live among us and do businesses with us do not become a target as they have become in the southeast well I mean unfortunately this is a repetition that has started long ago if you recall there have been continuous times across northern Nigeria where people who do business legitimately in northern Nigeria that are from eastern the then eastern region and now southeast and south south where targets not because of what they have done but because some people just look at them and say that these are Nyamini people these are problems that we have in Nigeria and we just cannot use English to wipe away these problems we have to sit down and begin to find solutions some of those solutions are in the calls that we have been making for decades that we should restructure Nigeria and that in that restructuring every state should be able to look after itself and develop itself so that we don't feel that we are less than anybody else and somebody does not feel that they are more than us these are very unfortunate circumstances but they are circumstances of life and death circumstances of blood interesting I don't know if Mr Macri's back would like to I'd like to go back to you Mr Macri you did not really finish answering my question when I asked about those who may have mistaken Mr President's not for open grazing to take you know sudden laws into their hands just as you have said these could be Miss Koreans flying under you know the radar but like I asked Miss Ankyo we all are pointing out the problems how do we bring solutions because again like I said there are some of these people who genuinely live amongst us and do businesses and they're nice and they're safe you know people they do not carry guns or anything how do we make sure that these people are not targets from a security man's perspective well when you look at the problems that we have in this country and then consider the threats that we have you discover that the politicians are behind all these you know when I'm doing my test analysis of Nigeria national security I always put politicians because they are the ones that cause the problem for us I know that the fisherman in the Niger Delta does not have any problems with the farmer in Benway State they don't have any problem they might not even know each other but the politicians go to the center and because of one failure or the other will always come back to tell that oh they did this to me because I'm a new pay man or they did this to me because I'm a full earning or like that so we have to watch that and they have to look at it seriously the country is at the crossroads we are sliding down a very slippery lane and meanwhile instead of us to sit back and take this major problem that we know the problem of ethnicity or should I say nationality and address it they are thinking of how to win elections in 2023 I can tell you this if we don't solve this problem I don't think they will be able to achieve their aim in 2023 so sorry I'm sorry don't you think that we're aiding and abating because you're making a very interesting point here you're saying that politicians have taken advantage of the divisiveness within our different sections in the country to amplify our problems yes but are we not aiding and abating because we're quick to point fingers at our leadership but what about the followership because I was somewhere yesterday and people kept talking about how bad our leadership is and how bad our politicians are but they did not come from Mars did they come from Jupiter they are from amongst us so what are we doing as followers are we not aiding and abating these kinds of activities we are not aiding and abating we are not aiding and abating that's why we are called followers you know if the leader tell us go left we all go left they tell go right we all go right it's the leader always right it's the leader amongst the leader always be right yes you are a leader but you might sometimes not be right even when you seemingly are a leader we are saying that the problem the problem has to be solved with the leaders because they are the problems they are the ones causing this problem for us so if they get themselves on because one of the other problems we have in Nigeria is governance we are not governing well and we are not leading on the principles of justice and equity then we will continue to have this trouble you know leaders need to get themselves together okay so let's talk about MEND quickly I'm coming back to you Ankyo MEND has of course like you said have reacted to this threats and taken it personal what are we to make of these threats then I will hope that Mr Amakri can answer that too or counter threats and the capability of it becoming a security problem because again just as we are not able to ascertain the miscreants that are behind that letter can we really ascertain who the people that are claiming to be MEND are and could this also be a problem that is breeding how do we make sure that that is also shut down not just by press conferences but by security intel well very quickly when you come to the issue of insecurity across the north we started with Boko Haram then we started with ISIS and all of that and then we had Headsmen and up till today the federal government and most of the governors in which states these people operate sometimes they interact with them and sometimes they don't know them now coming down to the south east you find a situation where there are insecurity in the south east and quite quickly we are able to find the people who they claim are perpetrating these insecurities in the south east now you come down to the Niger Delta and there is a threat and then now there is a cancer threat from MEND now everybody in Nigeria and most people who have done analysis and things like that will not believe me if I say that I don't know anything about MEND so I mean I am Niger Delta and we know the story of MEND and so for us in the Niger Delta when we see these counter threats that come from MEND so to play we begin to wonder why it has become a story because when somebody else has made a threat jihadists are now being told they don't exist or non jihadists perhaps and then MEND makes a counter threat and that shows that violence or threats is not only one sided anybody can get up and make a threat anybody can get up and be violent and that's why I keep throwing this back to the government I don't see how a federal government that wants to control everything in Nigeria will now not want to control and get the grip of the security of Nigeria they must get a grip and if they can't get a grip then they must allow also to be able to defend ourselves interesting back to you Mr. Makri you are the security person here so help us out just as I asked same question for you but this time does this not play down on the capabilities of our security agencies and governments in handling the situation because it's becoming like she said it's become a free for all a play of words and do you know anybody can issue a threat and a counter threat what does this make of our country and our level of I know that we have insecurity but then we have governments we have security agencies where is all of the intel where is all of the security that we are hopefully paying for like I told you the intel we have in this country is first class because I know what are we doing with it then but you have to realize that as I also mentioned we have a serious deficit in governance because when governance is not showing itself to be living on the side of equity and justice then you start having all these problems and I can tell you this we the security agencies in the country must have lost their initiative and that's why you have regional security issues coming up like Amoteco Ibubango and the rest is bad now the thing is that the government have to take back that initiative if they don't everybody will be going ahead and try to defend themselves and you see that when the headsmen will leave their traditional area and go all the way down to Delta to threaten a fight and all you find out people asking some other people in the west the south west to leave then you find out that we are in the real mess like Ankyo is just saying and is in that mess can only be cleared by good governance and they can start now I don't think it's late it's not late at all but you have to address the issue if you don't address the issue then it will first time blow into something else that we don't expect Ankyo how serious and how sure does it seem that our leaders even asked the people are ready to have that conversation or deal with this you know hydro-headed monster called insecurity does it seem that it's even within the grasp of our leaders to give us good governance in the first instance or even have that conversation of devolution of powers of restructuring we hear it being banded every other day but are we really ready to sit down and have that conversation and implement every single word to the latter if we do well we better be ready or the other is either we're ready to have a conversation that will resolve the issues that has been on the table or then we are not ready and therefore we are ready for the other which is that whether we like it or not this will get worse and it will get messier and it's just unimaginable what can be the fallout of this all I'm saying is that both the electorate and the people that we are electing and presenting themselves better be certain and know that this is not going back we must resolve this matter we can't just wake up and find ourselves back in 2015 or 2014 we are in a mess and it must be resolved and the only way we can resolve it is to discuss it let everybody come up look we cannot run away from the fact that we are nationalities everybody is recognizing their nationality I've always known whom I am and so therefore I cannot tell somebody else not to recognize who they are the government, all government all the state government the federal government everybody needs to know what is at stake it is the future it is the lives of our people that are at stake we're heading for destruction okay well when you put it that you're all looming this cost for worry well Ankyl Briggs Nigel Delta activist and Dennis Amakri former DSS boss thank you very much for joining us thank you so much for having me alright well thank you all for staying with us we'll take a short break now and when we return we discuss the rising rate of robberies in Lagos do you live in Lagos have you had an experience try and the conversation will be right back