 It's preparing it and we are live on YouTube as we like to say good morning or good afternoon. Good evening YouTube And we're here. So I think we're getting a good crowd People coming in so shall I just kick it off? So Yeah, so welcome everybody to this special interest group the capital markets Hyperledger a capital market special interest group meeting at an Asia Pacific friendly time We have a great meeting today we have Raj Karan from the CTO of Bondi Valley is going to talk about what they're doing a bomb blocks the first ever blockchain based bond exchange which is now I think two years since it came out of out of the Singapore Regulatory sandbox. So, you know lots happen. So we're really excited to have that That's a really special. Thank you Raj and we're also going to hand in a second over to our chair to Vipin who's going to talk a little bit about some come something that came out from the White House today about some executive order, which is all pretty exciting as well around Assets digital assets. So we're looking forward to that. But before I hand over I'll hand first to Vipin I have a few housekeeping items first We do have an antitrust policy at Linux Foundation. This is the next foundation meeting. So please do go and see that if you have any questions about it We also do have a code of conduct. It's pretty Straightforward be civil treat others as you would treat yourself, right? and also, you know, we believe very much in diversity diversity is a strength of our community the more diverse are We are the better our community. So please respect others I'm now going to hand over to you Vipin in your your beautiful wisteria. I'm learning that wisteria in Central Park Thank you Yes, it's nightfall around here But anyway, I just wanted to take a couple of minutes to talk about the executive order from President Biden. It is the first time that they have even acknowledged the existence of digital assets It's quite comprehensive the Order it goes over several items. One is of course the policy landscape Which is, you know, obviously the $3 trillion $3 trillion value then of course it frames it as protecting the American consumer and It has a very definite timeline for all the various agencies to Produce reports and to track the reports and you know, if you if you read the executive order it goes into great detail on About 20 or so agencies. So it's that's Very interesting There is also a pretty big section on CBDCs Which is, you know, going to be important and obviously it is a geopolitical and strategic imperative to Be on the forefront of this because obviously as we have seen in the past few days it is financial sanctions that Seem to have made a difference at least slightly but you know, this is going to be the warfare of the future the hybrid Warfare as they say Anyway, I am not going to dwell on all this because we're going to have a more Comprehensive presentation on this And Raj will now take over and talk about bond E value, which is of course part of the digital assets That the executive order talks about it covers The whole ground cryptocurrencies stable coins any kind of digital representation of value like Fractualized bonds So Raj is going to take over And give us his Thanks Thanks and welcome everyone. Thanks for joining in that various times of the day across the globe So today I'd like to talk a little bit about How we set up the world's first fractional exchange for bonds And then I'll try to give you a little bit of a peek of how things work behind the scene as well Just going to share my screen It's helps to have some visuals And Get this to move. Sorry. Just give me a second the zoom bar at the bottom needs to get out of the way. Okay Okay, so Quick one to move it further up Okay, so a quick introduction on bond E value we are a Singapore based FinTech that focuses on fixed income And we operate the world's first fractional bond exchange, which is also called as bond blocks or bbx As as our symbol we are regulated by the monetary authority of Singapore We'll talk a little bit more about what we do and who our regulator is how this has come about But our vision is a world where every investor can trade bonds on the go without any restrictions on minimum investments and this is implemented by our Fully regulated bond exchange it's based on blockchain and we also have a cloud based bond information service that provides More transparency to the bond markets So looking at some of the key pain points of the bond markets So these are if you look at what's happened in the capital markets equities I think in the late 90s early 2000s. They modernized they became fully electronic in every way FX I think that happened more Let's say a few years later in the 2010s and we feel that the time is appropriate for the bond markets to join that Revolution if you will bond markets by the way are larger than even equity markets just because of the sheer Now size of the issuers and the number of bonds issued and the size of the issuances as well But the pain points are still decades old right so for those of you who may have bought or sold bonds Especially in Asia large parts of the trading is still phone call to them minimum sizes again, especially Asia maybe Australia the Europe as well The minimum ticket sizes are in the region of US dollar 200k And then they're non-exchange traded They are largely traded on marketplaces that are over the counter or OTC traded And all of this I think contributes them to To to be largely illiquid as well So The complexity of Especially Asia maybe Go ahead go ahead. Okay. There seems like there's an echo. I thought it was somebody else. It's me the complexity of bonds requires deep domain knowledge and tech knowledge to come together to Create this kind of a market infrastructure that can solve all these problems and we'll take a little bit of a look at how we are doing So this is an overview of the bond blocks exchange system as an exchange We work like other exchanges with with Banks asset managers brokers syntax, etc And then they provide access like a bank or broker might provide access to the exchange Through through their connection with us We are licensed by the MAS we were the first to get into the MAS sandbox Express And then we were able to exit to get a full Recognized market operator license on the 1st of October 20th We have integrated with global custodians. I think a global suits many global custodians or a couple of global custodians Both city and northern trust two of the largest custodians The biggest and most respected names as well in the custody side of things Are fully integrated with us and we'll talk about how how this sets up the ecosystem for us as well We have as we stand you've grown our membership since the late 2020 despite all of the COVID headwinds that hit So we have as you can see with these are members. You'll be key on as the largest broker in In Southeast Asia a part of the three big names in Singapore as well We have others who are based out of century private belt as in the Middle East Investment Services UK is in UK GFM I believe is in Is in Hong Kong and then I'll receive dancing in Indonesia so it's There's many questions on what bond exchange bond exchanges can do bond exchanges by their nature and because we're based in Singapore as well Our global so our clientele our members Are global and we continue to bring on more members on board more members as we speak So what is bond blocks and how do we construct all of this the digital asset that's bond blocks So we haven't really taken away what is a market practice rather we're built on top of a mark existing market practice Which is the practice of creating deposit receipts For many of us we would have seen in India especially right a lot of the big market companies started listing in In Nasdaq or the New York Stock Exchange and that process was through the global deposit receipts or the American ADRs American deposit receipts So bond blocks is basically deposit receipts of an underlying bond It carries the characteristics of the underlying bond except in one area which is that the minimum denomination is $1,000 versus $200,000 for most of the bonds that we have on the exchange So what is the process of creating the deposit receipts so deposit receipts So deposit receipts interestingly are a method that can be used for actualization but then in the past they have used almost in the reverse direction right so you take You take let's say if there's a share trading in India at 100 rupees right if it goes to the US market and original denomination it becomes $2 It's coming down to looking like a penny stock right so what they used to do was to take five shares and then put it as one deposit receipts We are doing what's the opposite of that so for a secondary bond in a for an existing bond in the secondary current secondary market In its original denomination the bond is brought in to the exchange by one of the designated market makers and it's customized and safeguarded with one of our designated custodians, Nordic Rasticity When the bond is received by our custodian they confirm receipt and this confirmation then creates this underlying digital asset the bond blocks in the distributed ledger so we use hyper ledger sawtooth And it creates the bond blocks equal value but now the denomination is just a thousand dollars right and now we also have a dual fungible process which means the market maker if they have bonds in the original denomination and increments If they want to go back and take it back to the secondary market they can fund it out by withdrawing it from the custodian and in the similar process happens in the reverse So some of the key benefits before we get into a little more of the underlying the flows It's a visa we being phone driven it is fully electronic now you can you can place orders and if you have your own application you can connect via APIs or you can deploy we have a in order to see the market we created a deployable application that that we host for a majority of our members to get go to market really fast because we have the bond in the ledger we also have the cash in the ledger so if somebody wants to buy a bond they will transfer cash to one of our custodians the same process and it would get recorded in the ledger and and it's locked box with the custodian so the orders itself match like any exchange on a central limit order book on a price stand priority but at the end of that order matching process the settlement instructions are sent to the DLP and the settlement is instantaneous In a way if you look at the infrastructure we have we are kind of fully integrated so typically in the market infrastructure you have an exchange you have a clearing house, you have a depository a bank, you know, those that customize the underlying asset or record keep for the underlying asset and there's a there's a flow that in the bond market typically takes t plus two at the end of the trade. In our case the trades are instant radius is risk, etc. But also you are able to then utilize whatever you've got at that point in time. Small ticket sizes, we work directly with partners, we have a small set of bonds, which we are growing every month. The idea is that in the bond market there are millions of bonds issued but we want to take a small set of curated bonds that that provide liquidity in our market. Dual fungible, we are not a crypto, we are not a crypto exchange, the underlying asset is not a crypto just as a disclaimer, but and we are regulated by the monetary authority of Singapore. And then we use a third party custodian for asset safeguarding. So how does this whole process work right so in order for the exchange to function. We need to have bonds in the exchange. So a market maker, a designated market maker on the exchange, but it will also be any part spend of the exchange can bring in a bond. So I'm taking the example of a bond that is quite popular in our ecosystem which is the HSBC is 6.375 coupon per. So they bring in $200 of that bond and they transfer it to our custodian. The custodian customizes that and confirms receipt to the blockchain. So at this point I'll also talk through, you know, we use hypolysis or two, and we use the PBFT consensus because PBFT is not poking its Byzantine fault tolerance so when we say it's instantaneous right you don't have to wait for hope resolution and such to confirm. It's committed. As soon as the action has taken. Okay. So when the confirmation happens, the transaction is distributed to all the notes in the, and then the PBFT consensus that takes it right so PBFT has a sort of a rotational leader policy, and the leader at that time would order the transactions into blocks and distribute that to all nodes. Transactions are executed by every single node. You know these are the distributed databases where the leader does everything and then only the data updates go. This is part of how I guess the underlying blockchain system is by the time fault tolerant. And all nodes compare the execution results with each other and if greater than two thirds of the network have identical results. Then the block is committed right and the nodes global state as well so you can think of the global state as you know set of accounts and what's under under them, what assets are under them. So you can see that one to one backed bond blocks fraction units are created. So the market maker account now has 200,000 of the underlying point. And the other good thing about the sort of system is that it's completely event driven so as, as things happen events are sent so everybody gets updated. It's asynchronous but you get updated as things happen. So, Bond blocks, as we mentioned are also fungible and the reverse process happens if somebody, the market maker wants to take it back to the secondary market. When a member wants to buy those bond, there's a similar process where they move cash to the custodian and and then they can place orders. So we'll take a quick look at the orders flow. So the market maker places orders to sell the bond, they no longer have to do, they can place, you know, multiple orders at one day. So you can have, you know, various strategies that that you can follow to have like a ladder based approach and so on. And a member then may place an order to buy. These are all firm orders. So it's not like a port and it's not like the OTC market. Bondi value as an exchange matches the order via center limit order book and the confirmations are then sent for settlement to the to the TLP. So when this happens, again, the underlying PBFT process gets in and the updates and all of the led all of the nodes and the ledger is instantaneous. You can see that the account under under the hood accounts then are updated to reflect the new account balances as a execution of the settlement or the confirmation of this order. Right. And again, one of the things that I really love about this is that you know, you don't have to kind of look for data updates that comes to you directly from the event system that software supports. You can be using the blockchain. There's a lot of question about it. It's not. It's a permission network. It is largely between body value and the custodians who maintain the safeguard and maintain the assets. But it's a single source of record. It's the reason I mentioned events a lot is because it's really efficient when it comes to messaging and communication. And some of the benefits that you would have seen the efficiency improves. There's very little reconciliation efforts. The settlement is the procedure. It's instantaneous. It also enables new models of execution like fractionization. When we look at how this how this system is when we start off, we always, you know, we connect directly we put in a blockchain system and then we look at how it works. But while the underlying abilities of the blockchain system are really robust. Interactions are not really so right like all of us will work with this know that when you use a CLI or a terminal, you get data but it's really not consumable by our end users and this is the system that we have in place. We have combined the underlying blockchain system along with the fully 100% cloud based approach, which funnels all the events that the blockchain provides back to the front end in near real time using, you know, MQTT and IOT based service from AWS. So just getting into a few of the challenges and the lessons learned. Again, it's, you know, it's, I did this last year as well but I still feel there's a new technology paradigm there's a lot of excitement about what blockchain can bring and truly so it makes us opens our mind it makes us think there's an excellent, excellent paper on the capital market and I think it was, it was done by some of the folks at Euroclear and sponsored by them in 2016 so it was quite incredible when I saw the date. But a lot of things that we have independently done they really, I can see in that paper there's so much of thought process and visualization of how things would move forward and we are somewhat at the forefront of that. So we have to, you know, your engineers are engineers have to really dig in and understand how this works, be ready to work with some of the, you know, some of the nature of not being a fully mature technology being at the early stages, especially as it comes into adoption into digital assets at an enterprise or corporate level. Deployment of updates requires a coordinated effort so needless to say if you make changes you add new features to your system, you know, as a, you typically just deploy you know you had the best deployment process you can do it very quickly on to your existing non distributed systems, distributed ledger systems with partners. In this case it requires like any network it requires a coordinated effort right and so you have to have plans you have agreements in place. And, and also the ability to sort of correct things are challenging so you have to make sure that you have a higher quality when you release out especially into production. There are complex transactions and you know the blockchain may not be the best execution platform. So for example the whole order matching. And if you look at even the crypto exchanges today right everything's executed as an exchange and then the settlement instruction settlement is taken care of by them with whatever blockchain system system they're using. The data in our blockchain system is completely anonymized. So we don't even though it's a private network. We do not put personally identifiable information it's anonymized. But that also then brings in a need to combine off chain data with on chain data. There's also a lot of market data that's quite rich and diverse in nature, right and what we need to do is to be able to address to combine on chain and off chain data to provide a really rich experience to your users. And, you know, finally, needless to say for every, every kind of financial system you have to plan for DR availability, etc. But, but if I go back to point number one this is new. Right, just you have to figure out how what what you need to put in place to ensure also the immutable nature of the blockchain and so on and so forth. So we have done a number of things over the over the years, you know, complete automation of tracking off, you know, has everything gone in automated reconciliation backup recovery, etc. So just on what is the future of on blocks what are we looking for like going forward. So today we have about 30 bonds and this list keeps growing. We have issued I think over 50 bonds on the platform. So one of the one of the flows that I didn't discuss is that we have to take care of corporate actions which we have been fairly efficiently doing on our end. We have we have had a couple of redemptions calls puts. So we have exercised a lot of the features of the existing markets right and we are live this is completely production we are on the with the regulator and so on. What we plan to do going forward is that is a to increase the size of the number of bonds the bond universe on our on our ecosystem to 250 this year but hopefully we'll keep growing that we don't intend again to have the entire million plus bonds issued but but take care of what our members and their clients require from their investment purposes. In addition to this we're looking at other other opportunities the underlying DR ability right anything that can be customized customized by custodians and then issued as a PR is is a powerful concept where we're looking at other other kinds of digital assets or other kinds of existing assets to digitalize them like maybe funds, maybe ETFs, local currency bonds so they can PR allows them to be issued in a different currency for settlement, so on and so forth. That's part of the future that we look for in the near term. So with that I'll stop. Thanks to everyone. Please feel free to contact us on any of this. I'm happy to share my, my email address as well. It's rajaram.com first name, last name at quality value.com. I'll stop here. I'll hand it back to Raj. Thanks everyone for listening. Thanks, thanks Raj. That was awesome. That's normal. Thank you. Amazing. Amazing activity there right with bond blocks and Bondi valley. So thank you. I think now, as normally we've been starts with the first question. So I think we've got a lot of questions definitely here right so people put questions in the chat or answer to stick up your hand and ask questions right. And please do ask, ask the way, because we have, we have Raj here. Okay, I mean, you know, I was just waiting for David to start off the questions, but I could, I mean, you know, I'll go next. Okay. So it looks like machine has put up his hand so maybe he shouldn't do it. No, once you guys go ahead, I'll kick in after that. So you said that you have the off chain data somewhere. What is the platform that you use. And how do you integrate those off chain data with the on chain data in a seamless way. Yeah. Thanks. So I think it's a couple of points the off chain data, the nature of the off chain data is this right so. So let's say that you open an account with one of the members. Okay, so you're the details that this account belongs to weapon is with the member, then the anonymized account ID is created on the blockchain. Right. So part of combining that is, is that combining, let's say your information by your member, the member that you're on board with, and your portfolio holdings and transactions with what's there in the blockchain. Is is an example of what is done. We also derive a lot of information like market data itself and so on and we want to distribute that faster. So, in terms of a clash amongst the data is limited. It's not duplicating too much between the off chain and the on chain, it's, it's sort of enrichment of the data that's on chain with, with, you know, with two words one goal is that on chain is anonymized as much as possible. And the second goal is that you can make richer querying richer base of showing data. When you combine them with off chain data and then, and then let your users interact with that. What platform do you use for that. I mean, I know that the, in terms of the KYC and and the other things gets the clients platform but since you're also handling some of the data that you yourself are providing, then there must be some kind of a distributed database or I give fast or store J or, you know, I don't know exactly what what you guys are using. So what we do is we, so we are completely cloud based. We are on AWS today and there's also a case study on AWS on us, which also explains out some of this. But we use we store all of the data on Postgres in our on our end. And we, you know, there's a system of, so if I were to explain a little bit right so in that flow external internal, when an order comes in and the settlement happens, right, the, the system shoots out an event, right and we listen into those events or those events are views like SNS and SQS to integrate back to our systems and the data is updated instantaneously, right, back into our system so all the updates happen in the blockchain and they are updated back to our traditional database system the databases are multi AC highly available we have. We keep adopting new technology as they come up so you know as soon as AWS came up with a proxy we put that in place. We tested out that for fellow as a fast super fast like you know, less than a second kind of thing so and then we don't stop there right so what we do is for connected clients like they have we are able to send the update directly to their front ends as well we use the AWS is iOS IoT code. So they all connected via MQTT and so you kind of as markets change as your order status updates right and so on and so forth you kind of see it like you know nearly the same time as when it happens on our systems in the ledger and then in our packet. There seem to be several questions on the chat also. And I can, you know, while you're going through those questions between so I'll ask just one quick one then we can go to machine and go go go for the chat city if you want. So, again, thank you. Excellent, excellent presentation I think that's being well commented in the chat box. When you opened up, obviously from a most concerned about regulatory compliance etc etc. And ironically, the pin also mentioned the latest executive order coming out from the US. So, at the moment in time as you quite rightly mentioned you are not a an exchange, you're not a crypto exchange, and obviously it's early days to understand the full machinations of what's on the latest American executive order. But as you mentioned because bonds are global and we have various regulators being who are competing to understand and securities and we know that the problem that's happened with a few exchanges with different regulators, etc. So, do you think that shortly you, your activities will will be regulated, and if it will, do you think that should be an impediment for your growth personally I don't think it would, but I do think it would be good if, if entities were also regulated to provide that trust element to the marketplace, but it'd be interesting to get your thoughts. So, David, we are an exchange but for bonds, right. And be we are regulated today. So we have fully regulated by the monetary authority by the MAS in Singapore right which is one of the, you know, one of the regulators of renown throughout the world right like they, they took up by the way our application took us a year year and a half to because of what you're saying right the nature of the assets, it's a digital asset it uses distributed ledger technology and they took, they inspected every part of our solution to see that, I mean from a regulator's perspective and once they give you a license right I mean, people look up to the regulator to ensure that you are, you know, you are performing according to the standards that are expected by the both the regulator and, and there's a reason for the regulators the public in general as well. So, so as on date we are fully regulated. The regulation permits us to work with members across the globe. Right and what we do from a KYC perspective so we don't KYC the implants because our relationship is with the members as we've been pointed out, but we KYC the member themselves and part of that is to ensure that the regulations in their home country permit them to connect to us and to sell these bonds. So in Singapore, for example, you're allowed to sell bonds even though it's now fractional right only to a certain class of investors institutional or accredited investors right, but in other countries, the regulations change. So, so, so we work with the members, and we have a full process that involves ascertaining that they are able to follow the local regulation in cases where the member in the local market says that you need to, you know, they need comfort in us talking to the local regulator, we are in conversations with local regulators as well, if and where needed. It's not required a lot of cases, but in a few cases we are talking to the local regulator to see if there's anything further we need to do we need to sort of apply to the local regulators in cases. The other part of David what we are doing, which I didn't mention, we already have a joint venture in Mexico, which, and then we're looking at a couple of other countries where you want to take this platform and launch local currency exchanges right and so in all of those cases we will have to go and get a license from the local regulator. So, so we're looking at what are the appropriate licenses, right and again, to your point, Singapore has been a little bit ahead of this because they. They encouraged us to look at a model that that also underlying use distributed ledger technology and such, but then they took, you know they took the appropriate amount of time from their perspective to ensure before they allowed us first into the sandbox, and then, you know the full license for the sandbox. So, to your point, we are already regulated, and I think we are regulated by one of the eminent regulators in the world. So, so we are acceptable across the globe in general, but where required we are interacting with local regulators as well. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much. I will hand back over to the VIP in autonomous. I think machine machine is got his hand up so. Thank you guys. Very interesting. Again, and thank you for the presentation. Mike, what I wanted to ask was the question on two fronts are the one is with regards to the refundability may not be the right term but you've talked about to do a fungibility and the ability to funds for the bond block to be funds back to the original bond, right. I would like to understand that process a little bit more. Secondly, it's a side question is not related to this but have you had any green bonds being issued on your platform or have they been typically your corporate bonds that you've seen. Sure. So, so first on the first question machine. The process of dual fungibility is again it's fairly straightforward. So if you think of it, let's say it can be a market maker but it can also be a, it can be any client. As long as they have the requisite quantity that is acceptable in the current interbank market. So, so what I mean is that they, if the bond requires a $200,000 minimum. And if they have it in, in the bond block size, we, there's a process through which our custodian, we can withdraw that bond into their custodian and the corresponding bond blocks is knocked off from the system. Right, so it's a fairly, right, it's a, I guess, in a way it's like saying, you know, if you add 100 cents, then if you want a $100 bill, I mean money is almost fully fungible, right. But here, if you wanted a $100 bill, you need, you wanted to exchange a $100 bill, you need, let's say $101, right. So if you have that, then the process is fairly straightforward. Okay. Thanks. The second question machine again, just he said it was of green bonds, green bonds, okay, sorry. So yes, we do have plans to list green bonds on the exchange. So the criteria for listing bonds is, I mean, we have criteria for listing bonds and as long as the part of it is, you know, let's say some of the criteria is related to demand by members is related to type of the bond, in the sense that it should be a bond that does not have, let's say, funky features, right. It should be somewhat straightforward in its construction, in its prospectors, and, and then, you know, a market maker willing to bring in the bond. Right, so having met those criteria as you will, I'm sure you'll see green bonds being listed. But you're not going to do anything special in terms of the provenance or anything of the green bonds that is all outside the system. I think they will be somehow that's correct. So the system itself will not look at the problem is from the green perspective of it. But again, yeah, there are some very interesting conversations going on. Of course, how we can, because that is one of the biggest problems. The so-called greenwashing. Right, yeah. If I can, this is going to be a very quick one. Do you also, you know, are people buyers able to see the rating of the bond? It's a life, you know, I do have APS plug-in into any of the credit rating agencies or is it just the basic information on the bond when somebody's looking at it? So actually if you go to our website, bondblocks.com, I'll just paste it here. And you click on, you can actually click on listings. You can see everything that we provide. So we provide ratings from all the three major rating agencies today where available. And we provide a bunch of other underlying information on the bonds and so on. Okay, understood. Thanks a lot. Really appreciate the opportunity to do ask the question and your answers. Thank you. Thanks, Mishy. Thanks for asking the question. So there are two questions here on the chat. The first one is, you can read it. Yeah, I just opened it on the side. So maybe I'll go by the first order. Order, order. Yes. The same order. So first is by Emil. What's your plan of adopting stablecoin or CBDC for settlements? So very interesting question. You know, I thought I'd put in a plug somewhere in between but the question helps me do so. So currently we do our bonds and the currencies of the bonds that we currently support on the exchange in Singapore is basically US dollar and sing dollars. And we don't have CBDC yet in US dollar or sing dollars. So the announcement from yesterday that we've been brought up is very exciting news. Now, the MAS had a, I think for the last fintech festival last year, they had like this competition for like a regulated liability network, RLN network with looking at CBDC. And looking at CBDC and such, right. And we were part of a team, which are the consortium of banks, you know, a couple of technology providers, and us to show integration from our systems into, into their demo, their demo CBDC system. And I can, I can, I can tell you that it's a very exciting place for us. We are able to think of it as sort of many, many, many interesting things in that. So just from a efficiency perspective, right, we were able to show that at the time somebody wants to buy something, right, they can click and transfer CBDC. Right, so, so versus the fully pre funded model, right, and super efficient and it was a live integration, no real CBDC under the hood, but if there was, it would have been live. Right, so we can go live with that system gets live, we can be live in a couple of days after that. So, the second interesting thing from the underlying perspective is there's a CBDC network and there's the bond blocks network, and there's sort of the interoperability in really, you know, sub second sub millisecond whatever time frame for this all of this to happen. So we were able to establish that as well. So the question we have, they are, we're looking forward to adopting integrations into any CBDC system. I think if there's cross border becomes even better for us, so on and so forth, and we are very well prepared for that. We're looking forward to something going live. Interoperability thing. Do you have, you know, is it available is data on on your solution available architecture, anything, because I'm only interested in it for my interoperability paper. Of course, also, otherwise, but we are conducting a. You know, we are, we are writing a paper on creating standards for interoperability in it you, which is the, you know, international telecommunication union which is a UN agency DC GI it's called digital currency global initiative. Anyway, the other question you can create yourself the next one. And this also very interesting question so this is from Wei Wei Chiang, if I don't know, you know, forgive me if I got the transition wrong. I mean, I know there are specific features over hypothesis sort of. So the question was why was sort of selected over other block chain such as fabric and you see any for foresee any plan migration. So I think the first. The reason for sort of right is that the sort of sort of has a very relatively simpler architecture compared to at least what fabric was two years back. So if you think of trying to have intercompany Kafka, right to have within your company Kafka itself is a is a fair bit of work to establish but intercompany is a lot more. And as we work, you know, one of the things I have seen with many of the current projects is that while all participants on the blockchain, the system itself is run by one of the participants, technology participant in our case we tried to really really push so that, you know, our participating members so northern trust for example, are actually running their own notes in their own infrastructure. If you think of the ability to then connect, right, and have so many different protocols sort of those very simple right your validator at port 8800 connects to port 8800 of the other validators. There's no central certificate authority then. So that's one part of it. The second part of it also is, you know, second part of it was, was that we were able to, you have to focus on a particular system to kind of get it to a stage where you're comfortable that that when you move into production, you're able to handle any kind of cases that happen right and the simpler the system, the more, the more easier for you to accomplish that. So that that is sort of the underlying why we use sort of, there are things that fabric has that I wished, sort of has the ability to sort of restrict data by members, you know, so on and so forth. And of course, in the future, we are, you know, we keep looking at what's out there to see how it can achieve what we have achieved and give us something more on top of that. Right, so we are, we are open, but we have to also remember that we are now a live network with multiple participants running it in their infrastructure, where they've had to do certain things to make it work in their infrastructure, whether it's from networking, whether it's from platform, you know, some of them had to build it out, take the source code and build it out on on their version of like RHE for example. Right, so the amount of work it takes is a lot. And therefore we keep looking for opportunities, because if you do that now, and if you decide to move then it, you know, it would be a significant time later. But just in relation to that. And that question. Is anything in there regarding obviously you've used in the line technology anything about there about forking issues that are important that you've actually had to deal with some of those challenges. Sorry, can you repeat that again. Forks, forks, so in relation to that last question, is anything in there regarding forking issues that you've had to grapple with and obviously looking at for going forward as well. I think, I think many of the other systems right or have non forking options right I think in fabric, fabric supports in its 2.0 version, they've simplified it now so no Kafka required. They have a BFT algorithm. Right, so, so it is, I do believe or they have raft as well, which is not my own time fault order but it's a non forking algorithm so so I think, you know, we stumbled upon PBFT that you were originally planning to go down for it, which would have been a forking algorithm then we would have had to figure out something else. And then we found PBFT to be really robust, it was a great implementation software really really impressed with the guys who've done that with and it was robust it was easy, pluggable consensus and so on. But the other David to your point that I believe that other blockchain systems also have options today in terms of consensus, at least the enterprise ones that what about the tooling required to deploy and, you know, things like because that seems to be a big problem. For example, in Ethereum, you have this whole, you know, a testing infrastructure tuffle, you know, all those things but is there a comparable deployment architecture because I've been using fabric to do to deal with fabric. And it is pretty, it's, it's pretty good many fabric is not just for testing it is, it's proven itself to be good for operation, operationalizing as well. So I think that, you know, is there similar. It's actually quite straightforward. Again, probably because of the simplistic nature of sort of, it's all container based. Right, so set of containers, and you can use any of your container deployment method or something. Right, it's all Docker. But yeah, you can, you can, you can also do any other container but let's say they're all today available as Docker containers and the equivalent transaction process that we have built is also containerized and it's made available to our members to use their deployment methods. Yeah, I mean fabric is also container based but there are so many things to organize. Right, right, so that's the that's the whole point is sort of is that they're not so many things outside of that. So it's kind of it's containers, you know, small set of scripts, potentially to generate your initial validator keys set up and so on. And, and some, you know, a little bit of chain configurations to say who else to connect to where do they exist. But beyond that, a lot of the configurations are on chain. So once you're connected then, you know, including the consensus who participates. So how many nodes do you have in your. Currently we are running about six. The goal is we're not, we're not looking at it as a 100 node 5000 node system, it will not be efficient. Right then it'll start going into so with PBFT it's a very, it's, it's also a very verbal messages. Yeah, a lot of messages right so you know, we think 1015. I think the law depend on and we are talking to a lot of other custodians, the global law, big custodians because, you know, having more custodians makes all of this more simpler so clients of those custodians are able to interact more easily. So largely our custodians and us and there are five six large custodians in the world. And there's another question there saying, what is your daily transaction volume and do you think saw through the scalable to handle it obviously you do think that saw through the scale of it, but yeah, I think I won't get into so much of the daily transaction volume we are, you know, we are in our early stages yet we do, you know, maybe on a good day we'll do a few million dollars of trades. But we have to look at a, I mean, sort of this at this point, right, it is scalable, we have done a lot of benchmarking and if you look at bond markets today right the number of trades per day average, I think there was a paper something back right it's in 1000s for a particular bond versus when you take a stock market equity exchange, then it's in millions. Right, so the comparative what are what we need to achieve if we get, you know, if you really conquer the entire bond market and you're not we're looking at a slice of it, right, is that is still something that we are way ahead of now so we are in between where the bond markets are and where the stock markets are. So, I think to your point the scalability side you're right, you know, I think of it this way right so if I had six systems right I would probably get 5.9x additional benefit whereas because I'm using six systems doing the same thing right we actually get 0.9x right so off because of all the you know the whole consensus process and all of that so the same transaction they executed everywhere. But when we take a look at what it brings. Today there's because of all these various networks, centralized systems, etc, all of the settlements process all of them take this t plus two t plus one t plus two, etc, which means they've used that lifecycle from one to almost zero right or two to zero. So that's where the efficiencies really come in. It's a different problem statement that you're solving with bonds as opposed to with equity markets and I know that Vip and I were off working in that sector, traditional sector. It's a different problem statement but yeah, very much. That's correct and I think, you know, it's also how a transaction is defined as well right. Yes, when we were defining it in the performance and scale working group, we had a lot of quarrels, especially with one of the designers of sort of, you know, anyway, I'm wondering about one more thing which is, if things are so fast, does it take away from the resilience or the, you know, somewhat from problems of the system because time helps, you know, reconcile it. I mean, obviously, if you're not making errors, then you don't need to reconcile, but anyway, I know why Julian is here because time is up. I think we're at the hour and beyond, right. I'll just, I'll just to witness the question very quickly. I think I'll refer back to the paper that you've put up on the capital market thing that was the Euroclear sponsored one. Just what you see there, right, because Euroclear is the premier clearing agency, right, and they have the CSD as well. So they, you know, it's really, that's where the efficiencies are coming from. And the problem today is there are so many sources of records, right, your bond holding is with the depository, your cash is with some kind of bank, right, then the clearing has to come in between because it has to get transferred, right, held, then cleared, right, then you reconcile because, you know, you can't give the bond to the other person until the cash has come to you. So then you give the cash, you give the bond, you know, for DDP process. Now, when everything is inside the same ledger, and it's lockboxed outside, right, the reconciliation is really, you know, almost non-existent because you have just Yes. So I think that's where the efficiency comes from. And of course, to your point, you know, there are errors and such, right, that's where we have to be really careful in and keep them simple, right, the simpler we keep the transactions, you know, the less chances you'll make mistakes. And you have a whole system around that that will ensure that. Well, we are also thinking of introducing circuit records on that. We do, we do, you know, we have all of that. So we have circuit breakers, we have an annuals correction policy, with support in the system to correct an annuals trades. So we have taken the standard market, then we'll try to bring in the new benefits of the new technology and combine them. So we, you know, we have done both. So we do have an annuals correction to your point circuit breakers, annuals corrections, and the ability to execute them as well. Julian. Julian, sorry. No, no, no, no, this is excellent, excellent, excellent. I wish I could bottle this and sell it. It's awesome. This is really good stuff. So thank you. I think we just have to come to a wrap to an end right but I think we need a follow up, maybe a follow up more detail there right. And thank you. Thank you, Raj. Thank you, David. Thank you, everybody. I think that was a great meeting and Raj. Yeah, thank you. Thank you so much for the opportunity again and thanks everyone for. Thank you Raj. Thank you, Julian. Thank you, everyone. All right. All right. Take care, everybody. Now to sleep. And to our day, right? So Raj, your second cup of coffee. We are first. I don't know where you're at. And then I'm on to my day.