 Welcome to Cooper Union, what's happening around the world with human rights and it's excited to be able to share with you on really the one-month anniversary of the military coup in Myanmar. I'm very fortunate to be able to share and discuss today with Shayna from Human Rights Watch, a researcher who has years of experience in the field to be able to provide to the people of Hawaii and around the world what's really happening on the ground. Shayna, thank you so much for joining us. First, I'd like to think about the 1988 as well as the 2007 saffron revolution. You know, what are some of the lessons that were learned and how are the people movement and democracy defenders organizing to incorporate those ideas and initiatives? Yeah, I mean, it's an interesting point. Certainly what we've seen over this past month with millions of people who have really flooded the streets of Myanmar, not only in Yangon, the biggest city, but really all around the country, has echoes in these past mass protest movements in Myanmar. So in 1988, in 2007, this sort of popular protest is really deeply ingrained in in Myanmar's history. Sadly, what we're also seeing is a repeat by the military of this brutal crackdown in response to the protest. We've seen security forces over this past month increasingly using violent means to try and repress the the demonstrators who, despite the deadly violence that's being used against them, are still continuing to show up day after day. There's been sort of this interesting convergence over the past month between sort of some of the old-timer activists who were around in 1988 and had that experience. And then this influx of hundreds of thousands of younger activists who are involved in these protests and who are bringing not just new energy to the streets, but also a lot of new tools and activity who are bringing a real understanding of social media and how they can use that to support the movement and promote it and sort of share information from the ground around the world. Can you share some of those creative tools and some examples of how they've been engaging that way that hopefully can inspire youth around the world to join in to this milk tea revolution? Sure. So, yeah, I mean, we've been seeing this sort of links between protesters in Myanmar and these other areas in Hong Kong and Thailand. There's been this mass support, the same that we saw in each of these other protest movements when when sort of Thailand was in the spotlight. We saw Hong Kong really show up. And so there's been a lot of great sort of information sharing, tactic sharing. We've seen people showing up en masse on the streets in all of these other countries around Asia. I mean, social media at Facebook has always been huge in Myanmar since sort of the internet arrived. It's been kind of the main access point for people around the country. What we've seen over the past month is Twitter becoming a really kind of central tool in sharing information, using certain hashtags. So every day, both what's happening in Myanmar and then the date with coup, these hashtags have just been really sort of exploded among Burmese Twitter users in terms of getting out information about the abuses that are happening on the ground. So making sure that any documentation, that photos and videos that they're recording are making their way out into the world so that it's not easy for the military to keep its abuses hidden. That's so important. I think, can you share some of the most violent violations taking place regarding human rights since February 1? And what some society can do around the world to sort of to expose those human rights violations? Sure. I mean, the junta that's taken over is really sort of following the kind of totalitarian coup playbook. They really are using every tool they have. They are sending security forces, both military and police out into the streets with excessive and lethal violence. You know, they're using water cannons, rubber bullets, tear gas, stun grenades and live ammunition. There's been at least 25 people who have been killed. The violence is continuing to escalate. Scores have been injured. They are arresting people in massive numbers at this point and over 1,000 people have been detained over the past month. Not only politicians, as we know, Suchi is obviously sort of the most famous detainee right now, but hundreds of activists, over 20 journalists, have been detained. The military is also shutting off the internet now every night. It shuts down the internet like clockwork and it's also shut down some sites like Facebook entirely. So it's really trying to use whatever it can to kind of quash the resounding message from people in Myanmar that this junta is illegitimate and that they reject this military regime. It is powerful to see everyone rise up for rights and demand a new direction. And they had a taste of democracy for a couple of years, it seems, that people were then seeing what it should be like knowing that it was a compromise but really had their eye on full freedom. Can you see how maybe that has also influenced the movement? Yeah, exactly. I mean, so this coup was sort of directly in response to what was supposed to be the new government that was going to form on February 1st, following the elections in November 2020, which were these, for the most part, democratic elections that were held in which Aung San Suu Kyi's NLD party won again. And those were only the second democratic elections that most people had experienced. So in 2015, for the first time, people were able to show up and democratically elect their representatives. And we saw this very sort of halting democratic transition process start. And I think the result is that five years later, when it happened again and the military is now attempting to void the results and deny people their right to democratically elect their leaders, people are saying they're rejecting the premise. They are standing up. They are showing up. They know that they have these tools to share information, that they have tools to try and to get their story and message out into the world. And I think that is the kind of ongoing thread of hope around why this movement feels different. I think that's a really important point. And also, they made that move to move the capital. How was that impacting? Because everything used to be usually around Yangon and then small satellites of people standing up, speaking out, and sharing their hope for that better future. How is that working into this latest action? Yeah, I mean, the military had moved the capital to Napida, essentially in the middle of nowhere and had sort of built up this sort of bizarre city that has always been fairly empty because it was never really kind of populated in the way that a capital would be. I mean, what's been especially compelling about watching the protests and demonstrations and the other sort of actions that have been taken under this civil disobedience movement over the past month is that it's not only grounded in one location. It's not only hundreds of thousands of people showing up in Yangon. It's not only one sector of society, not only students who are showing up in one place. It's really, we've seen people showing up in Napida, protesters out on the streets in Mandalay, in cities, and also in smaller towns around. This is really a nationwide movement that has brought, yes, many young activists and students, but also civil servants, doctors, labor union leaders, all sorts of people from all different generations and sectors into the streets to try and get their message heard. Yeah, we can see that that seed of social justice has definitely taken root. You can see these trees, really, of transparency, accountability, demanding a new world, and not letting the military hide under that shade anymore. So it does seem, in many ways, it's irreversible, but it's still such a great danger. Can you maybe share what we see people doing around the world? Some examples, I know people are looking at Kirin in Japan with the business angle, and others are organizing activities focusing on business and human rights. What are some of those unique new angles than the usual aspects that are being taken so far? Yeah, I mean, so the military was essentially kind of able to stage this coup because even during the democratic transition, it never really stepped away from power. It was always sort of in the background, and it had enshrined in the Constitution kind of a number of levers that meant that it could hold on to power in the background. And its power, so much of it, is funded by these massive economic inflows that it has from all these different sources. The military basically has these two conglomerates that it owns with over 100 subsidiaries that allow it to have control over a number of different sectors in Myanmar's economy. So one of the major calls that needs to happen now to try and thwart the military's efforts to take over is to hit them where it hurts, which is to cut off their access to these flows of money and to really establish targeted sanctions that will impact the military leadership and these military-owned companies and prevent them from continuing to carry out abuses for decades because that's how they have funded not only these recent abuses since the coup, but really decades of abuses that they've carried out in conflict regions against ethnic minorities, against Rohingya. And so establishing that kind of international campaign of targeted economic sanctions is going to be a crucial part in actually shifting this landscape. So of the best ones that you've seen, I've heard aspects about focusing on genocide gins. I've seen aspects about oil and gas and the one about cure and beer with Japan angles. Are those the strongest ones you think that'll put the biggest squeeze on the junta? Are there other ones that maybe people could be aware of that they can take small action? I remember when I was in college, it was, I was don't drink a Pepsi and buy a bullet for the Burma military and all these campaigns that we were doing then. What are some of the new ones that have moved in that maybe we should apply some moral pressure to? Yeah, I mean, so Kearian is an interesting example, I think of the impact that international pressure can have on pushing these companies to really rethink their ties to the Myanmar junta. In terms of directly impacting the military, certainly oil and gas is probably the most kind of massive revenue inflow where they should be targeted and is the one that if governments work together could really kind of collectively impact what the military is able to generate financially. But certainly companies that are engaging with the military, whether it's directly or indirectly, should also be pressured to really reevaluate their commercial ties. If they are operating in Myanmar at all, they should be doing due diligence to identify, even if not directly, whether indirectly they are contributing funds to the military. And it should be clear that the human rights and reputational risks of maintaining those ties are untenable. Those are really excellent points. The other aspect that I thought was powerful was to see how the world is sort of trying to respond. And I think we can definitely be pleased that the current administration is a significant shift where our foreign policy and human rights was really just, we cared about it when it was about a country that we already wanted to put other pressure on, but it was someone that someone seen as an ally and really moving more towards authoritarian regimes and coddling them more. What do we see so far with the Biden administration that shows a significant shift? And what can we look at also maybe around the Human Rights Council? There was a special session and that special session took place on really the Friday before the council was beginning. And the exciting part is the US came out of, in a way, retirement or when it left in 2018 and saw Burma as really its first comeback role in the council. Maybe we could share and discuss that a bit so that people see what's happening with the global actions. Yeah, sure. I mean, yeah, certainly under this administration we saw a response that I imagine we would not have seen otherwise. The US was one of the first governments to implement new sanctions, targeting certain leaders under the SAC which is what the junta has called itself. Certainly it could go farther in terms of what it's looking to target, I think particularly after this past weekend and the level at which violence on the street was escalated, it's clear that the military is not on a path toward backing down. And governments we've seen from the US, from the UK, from EU, sort of the beginning of certain measures, a few individual sanctions that have been announced but it's really time for those to be escalated to this level of military own businesses and to these governments saying, you know what, this is use of deadly force, killing, shooting protesters on the street. This is a tipping point for us to escalate to targeting these oil and gas subsidiaries, for example. At the international level, we've seen sessions both at the Human Rights Council and at the General Assembly last week as well. We've also seen statements from the UN Security Council which were not totally expected given how much sort of disunity there is in the Security Council with China and Russia were generally extremely protective of Myanmar and extremely unwilling to speak out about Myanmar military abuses. I think it's a delicate time given that we're now a month past when the coup started and while these sort of sessions and briefings and statements and condemnations are important, it's really urgent that the momentum that's been built since the coup began a month ago not be lost. We know that the farther that we get from February 1st, the less international attention there is on issues like this and the easier it is for certain governments who are usually reluctant to take action to start treating the junta like the status quo. And so we're hoping that these UN bodies, particularly the UN Security Council, which has the means to impose a global arms embargo and to impose targeted economic sanctions actually uses this momentum and sense of urgency and builds on the consensus that it had with this statement that it put out in February to take that kind of action that's needed to support the people who are risking their lives on the streets of Myanmar. Yeah, and it's so exciting because when you see the people there, they're of course saying, US, UN, we need you. And we also have a new US ambassador to the UN. We have Linda Thomas Greenfield and the exciting part is I think US will be chairing Security Council. So there is that window with Linda Thomas Greenfield and we know when she was coming in, she said, we're gonna use not gunboat, but gumbo diplomacy. So maybe she can work together a good stew, something along the delicious things we're able to enjoy when we are in Myanmar, but see what is possible at the Security Council. Do you think there was anything that came out of the Human Rights Council that adds a bit to what's possible with the Security Council? And maybe we could get into, I guess we'd have to also look at ASEAN's potential, although always we, they almost take turns at having at least one good country in ASEAN of the 10 that you can be like, hey, it's a champion. What do you think about that aspect of regional plus international? Yeah, I mean, I think hopefully the Human Rights Council session also sort of speaks to the international understanding of what a threat this is to human rights, to peace, to security, and how at risk we are of losing all of the, yes, fragile, but the progress made over the past few years, how at risk we are of returning to this extremely dark period of military dictatorship in Myanmar. And I think the output of the Human Rights Council speaks to how widely shared that concern is and the will to take action in response. So hopefully that will encourage efforts at the Security Council, like you said, this month the US will be holding the presidency and hopefully with this sort of the new administration, the new energy that they're going to bring to the table that will push for some real action in that forum. I agree with you, I think we have to really look, because there's sort of two ingredients in this initiative to try to overthrow the HUNTA institution is the direct action on the ground, the people being, as you said, so brave in standing up every day because they've tasted freedom and they know what it is. And then on the other hand, the diplomacy to be able to at least apply the moral pressure, but also to say that it really won't let it happen. And we always have a difficult time with concentrating on one to two crises at the global arena. So I agree with you so much, only having everyday matters. And now that we're really one month in, it's important to really decide what is possible and how to combine the direct action bravery on the ground with the diplomatic moral pressure at the global level. Yeah, I mean, I think watching the efforts that these activists and just regular people throughout Myanmar have taken over the past month under this civil disobedience movement umbrella, how can these international actors not feel pushed to take action. They are out there doing absolutely everything they can, not just showing up on the streets, but they are undertaking general strikes. They are releasing statements. They are making so many efforts to amplify their voices, to get the message out. How can we not do everything possible to support them in that effort and show up for them the way that they more than deserve? And I also see the lessons coming out where they're also understanding what we know about human rights, how everything is interconnected and indivisible, that as they're standing up for their rights, they're recognizing even humbly that they could have done more to stand up with the indigenous peoples of Myanmar, definitely around the Rohingya crisis, and they're seeing that strength in diversity and they're really coming up to not only understand it, but really undertake new actions to support unity in the country and realizing how valuable this flower is and the fragility of freedom and they've smelled it and they're like, we will not let go. And maybe you could share some aspects about what you see with the people coming together around indigenous rights and even environmental rights as well. Sure, yeah, I mean, obviously, on the military's long, long list of abuses that it's carried out sort of at the top of the list are these acts of genocide that they carried out against the Rohingya most notably in August, 2017 and what was so disappointing in terms of the international community's response was that it never really led to justice or accountability for the Rohingya and for the atrocities that they suffered and we never really saw support for this deeply persecuted group of people from around Myanmar. We saw Ankh San Suu Kyi as leader of the country sort of standby and complicity with the military and this fair amount of sort of culture of Islamophobia that was bred throughout the country. We have seen over the past month a new narrative that is being shaped around recognition of this shared enemy that the military is this deeply abusive institution that is denying the rights of all civilians in Myanmar in the same way as it persecuted Rohingya and that the failure among people of Myanmar to stand up for the Rohingya in the past was born from sort of being indoctrinated into this military propaganda and this idea that the Rohingya and other Muslims pose this kind of existential threat. I think all we can do is hope that that sort of sense of shared solidarity grows no matter what the future holds because the threats and risks that the Rohingya who are still living in the country are under is just extremely precarious and worrying right now. I know, I mean for more than half a century the Myanmar military has oppressed the people and they've stifled their efforts to establish really a true federal democracy and committed grave human rights violations against them with impunity but it really seems that the people will not allow at this time and this appalling who has yet another demonstration of the general's blame disregard for the will of the people and international norms that have been trying to come up with a process to really hold them accountable. In the final moments that we have, I was wondering if you might see what should be taken in the next week and maybe in that process, what are some steps that people can take in solidarity with the people of Myanmar? I mean, I would say certainly staying informed is crucial. Staying up to date, seeking out, there are so many activists who are sharing stories from the ground, narrating their experiences on Facebook and Twitter and making sure that their voices are heard and trying to amplify them is going to be huge. I would also say certainly reaching out to, if you're in the US, you're representatives there or if you're in other countries touching base as you're able with your government to let them know that this is an issue of importance that you want to see action on. And I just saw recently, there's a new special advisory council for Myanmar. I don't know if you were hearing about that, but they create a special advisory council for Myanmar and it consists of former members used to do amazing work regarding Myanmar. We have Young He Lee, former UN special rapporteur on Myanmar. Also, we have the former chair of the UN independent international fact-finding mission on Myanmar, Marzuki Darusman and Chris Kedati. I know he's the former member of the UN independent fact-finding mission on Myanmar. They've created a brand new body to try to even add more action to really counter this violence suppression that's escalating daily for the people there. And that's just one example of small diplomacy, but maybe you can see or share other examples that we've seen people engaging that really know that around the planet we have to protect human rights and stand together with the people of Myanmar in the streets. Yeah, I mean, I think it's important and foundational group of people. They've all been Yang He Lee, a special rapporteur and Marzuki Darusman and Chris Kedati both under the fact-finding mission for a number of years. Both of them, I mean, all three of them were working on Myanmar until last year, the year previously and contributed huge amounts of work toward bolstering the fight for rights for the people of Myanmar, creating, you know, just massive amounts of documentation of the military's crimes and recommendations for the international community around what it needs to do to try and support the people of Myanmar in this fight for their basic rights and freedom. So, yeah, it's certainly an interesting step and I'll be interested to see what that offers. Shayna, Shayna, thank you so much for making time in a very busy schedule. I know so much is happening in Myanmar and providing up-to-date information. So we really do want to thank you. We thank you also for all the work with Human Rights Watch and all the years before working with small NGOs to make a difference. I know we've all had different experience with Earth Rights International, always working on those important issues where we've seen the indigenous peoples around the country standing up to protect their environment with large corporations coming in and full cooperation with the military. And we just want to thank you for your years of dedication. And if there's any closing words to the people of Myanmar, we would appreciate that. Well, thank you so much for having me. And I guess I would just say that we stand in solidarity with everyone who is protesting. All right, well, thank you so much. And we ask everyone to continue to contact their elected officials, to put pressure on ties with businesses that are operating in Myanmar, and also reaching out, because we can look at sustainable development goals 16 and 17 about peace and human rights, but also partnerships. We can all reach out with the people of Myanmar and support this milky revolution as well as the human rights movement in Myanmar. So again, thank you so much, Shayna, and have a wonderful rest of the week.