 Hey everybody, today we're debating space exploration and flat earth and we are starting right now with Howard's opening statement. Thanks so much for being with us Howard, the floor is all yours. Thank you James and let's see if we can get my slideshow on and start with the first image please. You bet it's showing. Awesome well first of all I'm not a flat earth so this is not a debate for me to prove flat earth I'm a globe and a space exploration skeptic because there's lots of evidence that conflicts with what we've been told to believe so the first image is showing that on a globe of 25,000 miles in circumference or 40,000 kilometers it's necessary that there'd be a drop in every direction of roughly 8 inches per mile squared and as you grow in distance the drop grows exponentially. I've checked with many mathematicians there's different formulas different ways to calculate this but all of the different methods equal a very similar number so we shouldn't be able to see 4,000 kilometers away sorry 443 kilometers away but we can as seen on the Guinness Book of Records sorry it is 4 kilometers yeah so we can see the Guinness Book of Records example where we can see 4,000 kilometers away and then we've got my picture that I took myself which is showing San Juan beach of Alicante 20 miles away at water level in the daytime we can see the buildings from top to bottom some of those buildings are less than 80 meters and the best part is at nighttime we can see the streetlights along the beachfront so my question to the audience and obviously to Mar is if you would like me to not be skeptical about the dimensions of Earth can you show me a vertical drop of roughly five meters over five miles like we would expect can you show me a vertical drop of approximately 20 meters over 10 miles like we would expect or can you debunk my image by showing me a vertical drop of at least half um what should be 80 meters over 20 miles I don't think you can because I've made many observations in many locations because people say that some parts of the earth is more curvy than others like Neil deGrasse Tyson says it's a pear shape maybe because mother nature it apples for men and pears for women I don't know but yeah seriously I don't see any vertical drop now I don't expect to see curvature but I expect to see landscape lost behind or below the horizon so just to repeat on that there should be five meters over five miles 20 meters over 10 miles 80 meters over 20 miles we don't have to go much further than that because if there's a curve in the water then it should be over just one or two miles noticeable which I don't think it is so that's my first slide if we could go to the next one please James you bet show me slide two thank you so we're told that we're traveling half a million miles per hour with the sun around the Milky Way my problem of that is not only do we still see the same constellations as the Egyptians the Mayans and the Aztecs did thousands of years ago which they've left for us carved in stone and everything's still in place there's no disfigurement to any of the constellations but we can look at it more simple we're told to believe that we're spinning on our axis evolving the sun and that the sun's going around the Milky Way yet when we make a recording of the stars at night and speed it up we can see the star trails are going in perfect circles now I can understand that would work for Polaris the North Star and even like the big and little dipper that go around the Polestar but as we venture further south for example we can see Orion now if we look at the middle image we can see that not only are we tilted 23.4 degrees which if you deduct that off 90 degrees leave 66.6 degrees the devil's number but mainly we're also on the completely other side of the sun in June compared to December as the middle image shows at the bottom so we should be looking in a completely different direction so my question is tomorrow and to the audience why is it that we can still see Orion six months later just at a different time of night not only can we still see it but as the star trail picture shows on the left we see it crossing the exact same path in the sky no matter what time of year just at a different time of night so that doesn't make sense on a globe which is why myself and many others are skeptical about the globe because the stars would be completely different or at least they would cross a different path in the sky but the angle is exactly the same it's just the time that's different so that's my point for that slide if we could go to the next one please you've got it going to slide three showing right now thank you now here I've taken some images from the ESA the European Space Agency and they don't match each other which is kind of ridiculous and even on their own website they admit that these images have been enhanced their images they're not photos as admitted on the website but even just looking at the images some have got clouds some have got absolutely no clouds they're all different colors of ocean they're different colors of continents and we can clearly see the nighttime pictures show where London Birmingham Manchester and Liverpool all the big cities are very visible at night yet in none of the daytime images can we see any sign of London or any other city even though they appear so big at nighttime so I'm not convinced and no no globe skeptic is convinced by these images anymore because when we go on google image search most of them are cartoons I've been very fair and found the best ones I could to compare them with snow without snow there's no sign of city they're clearly images as the ESA website clearly states themselves so as there's no photos of the United Kingdom there's no photos of Australia there's just composite images that have been stitched together from high altitude drone and aircraft pictures and mostly CGI or just cartoons which is why the weather reports are always in front of cartoons and never real time or showing us what happened in a storm the day before so that's my main point for that slide if we can go to the next one please James you got it showing slide four thank you here we can see an image from the Discover satellite and I insist that anybody that is interested in making their own investigation please go and check the original video from NASA it's easy to find on their YouTube channel and you'll see that the clouds are completely fixed they've been painted on with Photoshop because the recording is supposedly photos taken over five hours and we see roughly a third rotation yet none of the clouds move an inch so that proves that these aren't real clouds and that this is not a real photo because one the moon is dark two the clouds haven't moved and also we just can compare with the Himawari and any other satellite videos they don't have moving clouds even over 39 hours I did an interview with Mctoon Michael Mctoon and we saw that there was no movement in the clouds over 39 hours for the Himawari 8 so yeah if there's no photos of countries and there's no real videos of the earth then it suggests that we're being lied to about space exploration and also we know that there's infrared and ultraviolet we hear about ghosts and we we think about thoughts and feelings memories they exist but not in the physical realm so there's obviously higher dimensions as I say in the electromagnetic spectrum we can't see everything we can see very limited so knowing that there's other things in other electromagnetic waves like the infrared ultraviolet if you don't believe in the ghosts and things why aren't we seeing anything from outer space why are we just seeing the three dimensional shape when there's obviously more dimensions and also there's these YouTubers like Joe Rogan and people from the Gaia channel and even Mike Tyson that are all promoting psychedelics which is a pattern I often seen everyone that's ever done them is very insistent that everyone else tries them which makes me wonder if the entities that they say they've seen and the shapes and colors that they say they've seen when they're tripping have now opened a door for them to be influenced by them even when they're not high because they always promote these psychedelics but my point is they all have the same kind of story that the same kind of entities either speak to them or communicate them with them and they see colors that we don't normally see and they see shapes and geometric patterns that we don't normally perceive so where are these shapes and colors and entities when we're looking at this image why are we just looking at a 3d image when we know earth is much more than 3d from the science that we can understand even though we can't perceive for a 4d cube we can understand that the 4d cube can exist in another dimension so my point is I'm not a flat earth because there are obviously higher dimensions than 3d and we are just mere humans obsessed with the theory of knowledge and we like to pretend we know everything so we're going to argue between a 3d globe or a 2d or a 3d flat earth no I believe that earth is much more than 3d it could be seventh dimensional hence the seven heavens that they talk about so my next image please James you got it slide slide five showing right now thank you here I'm showing that not only is the bible got over 200 passages that reference a stationary level creation that is not a ball it's not shooting through space and it lost in direction it's completely fixed and it's enclosed hence why they talk about the firmament so here I'm not pushing a religious belief I'm just stating that there's historical books like the bible and all of the quotes we can see on the screen from the Quran which talk about the sun and moon not being as we've been told but rather going around us that were geocentric and also there's a firmament and the earth might be either flat or at least a higher dimension but stationary and enclosed we also see artifacts from Egypt and many other ancient civilizations depicting a firmament and these were advanced civilizations that could build things that we didn't know how to build so we have historical artifacts we have his tools like the astrolabe which measured calculated where the sun would be and what season it was coming based on a geocentric model we have the sundial based on a geocentric model both which works still to today the sundial and the astrolabe and we have a sextant another historical tool which is used because it needs a flat or at least a level baseline to work out the height of a star or an object it needs to use triangulation which wouldn't work on a curved surface so i'm showing that there's three tools many ancient cultures have left depictions of affirmaments and an enclosed system geocentric and the historical books which talk about the same my question to the audience and mark is are there any historical artifacts books or tools that would support the idea that earth is a globe i think not but please try to prove me wrong thank you james thank you for that opening statement and we're going to kick it over to mark thanks so much for waiting and thanks so much for your opening statement want to let you know folks if it's your first time here at modern day debate we are a neutral platform hosting debates on science religion and politics we hope you feel welcome no matter what walk of life you were from and don't forget to hit that subscribe button as we have many more juicy debates coming up in the future and with that thanks mark the floor is all yours for your opening statement as well oh i think you're on mute always happens at least once okay good evening all good morning it's a pleasure to be here thank you james i will have to share my screen and thank you to howard for being my interlocutor for this this one um just let me get prepared why not um yes and then uh screen in the meantime want to remind you folks that are guests are linked in the description if you'd like to hear more from either mark or howard you certainly can by clicking on their links below and thanks howard or i should say mark the floor is all yours thank you so much and thank you to everybody for joining me for this debate space exploration and the globe model um now first off i want to sort of talk about what a scientific model is a scientific model is a representation of empirical phenomenon events or physical processes so it's a description of reality basically um we don't seem to have absolutely perfect models that they don't seem to exist at least not yet we're always learning new things and updating our models to be in line with what we currently know this doesn't make the model useless or even inaccurate what it means is that we just add more and more knowledge to the to the model um take the model of the anatomy of humans there's more and more we learn about our bodies and how they work and we update our model of what we know with the new things that we learn um so the other question is what makes a model useful or true um a model is shown to be true when it has the ability to explain past observations and and this is the important part has the ability to predict future events the accurate prediction of future events is what gives us confidence that a model accurately shows what is empirically true failed predictions causes to lose confidence in the model models like um the the in medicine the humus system of the four humus that was dropped because the predictions that we made weren't in line with what was happening examples of models are an economic model it's accurate when it can predict future market trends or a geological model which is accurate when it can predict when certain rock types are going to be found or that when somebody predicts where oil is going to be found that's how we know that the the model is accurate and the is true now what predictions has the globe and cosmological model made um the the existence of Neptune it was predicted before it was found um it was predicted based upon Newton's laws quite famously um background microwave radiation this was predicted and then found by people that weren't even looking for it in fact they were trying to get rid of the sound of the radiation and didn't realize what they'd found um that was a hundred percent predicted before it was found um prediction of comets coming back we can predict to a very high accuracy when comets will enter and and um come back towards the earth so people can see them in the sky uh sky same with meteor shower as you can predict when those showers will happen to a great frequency and usually on the news they will present when it's actually happening so you can view it um and the eclipses i will get back to that i want to just put that one there i'll talk more about that later but that's a big one um and those are just a few of the things that that can be um predicted now i don't want to inundate um however the ton of things so there's three things that i want to touch on um that i really want to focus on and the first is the circumpolar stars now this is a northern hemisphere um sort of where how it is and do you notice it goes in sort of an anti-clockwise direction and i'll show that here it's going that way um so this anti-clockwise direction will always be seen from the northern hemisphere and if you give it a sec it'll switch to the south and this is australia where i am and just say it's going in a clockwise direction the opposite way and there's a very good reason for that um you'll never see this this direction coming from the higher um higher up in the north and there's a very good reason i'll explain that now uh one second there we go um so this is from a person in the northern hemisphere here and he's seeing the stars rotating around the north celestial pole but you won't see the stars rotating about about the south circumpolar um the circumpolar star south because the the globe is blocking his view so something like the southern cross how it will never see it from where he is in england because the globe is blocking his view of the southern cross whereas me in australia i will never see polaris um up here because the globe is blocking my view now this is from the the southern hemisphere perspective and i want to i want to look at it from this perspective it explains why somebody in africa in australia and south america all see the same stars that the northern hemisphere people or the higher latitudes in the northern hemisphere won't see and they all see the same stars in the same constellations all rotating around the central point and that's how they see it while the northern doesn't now let's take an example of a possible alternative now i do concede that this is not necessarily a howards model but let's take this flat possible model how do they see the same stars if you look south from australia south from um south america and south from africa you all see the same constellations and how is that possible all rotating around a central point um here's another possible globe model replacement again you have the same problem if you look south from australia up here if you look south from africa you're down here yet they're all still rotating around the same axis this would be the problem of a flat earth of the models that i've described you would have to have multiple circumpolar stars all rotating south of each of these continents and that's not what we see so ships over the edge of the earth no this ship isn't sunk it's just behind the edge of the horizon that this is this is can be seen i live on the coast i've seen multiple ships go over the horizon like this it's very very common again another ship over the horizon um and sort of so why are we not see the bottom while we still see the top and i'll show you why that is so this is a boy observed from almost sea level and you can see the wind farm in the background see how some of the blades have been cut off if you can't see very much of them at all now this photo is from 50 meters extra distance and 25 meters up you can now see all of the blades and and a lot more of these wing turbines while you can see way past the boy the question is going to be why can you see more of these turbines when you're further away that doesn't seem to make any sense on any other model now i can describe that on the globe model as you go up what you can do is see more of the object this even works when you go further away and further up you can still see more of the object less than before but more of the object the globe perfectly explains why we see this phenomenon and there's there's no reason why it wouldn't work like this and my question is to uh how it is is how is how is that possible if if there is a flat plane there now these are examples of a blood moon and these these look awesome they've got a really really nasty red color um and and they they appear in the sky at certain times and i'd like to know how these work in Howard's model that he's proposing or or an or any alternative model really um in the the globe model it's explained as such you have the light come in here now what it happens is it goes through the atmosphere and it's scattered it's a total lunar eclipse so the earth is perfectly in between the sun and the moon so the light comes in and it's scattered by the atmosphere exactly the same phenomenon that we see by the setting of the sun and the the rising of the sun how it's red um it's exactly the same phenomenon that light gets cast upon the sun uh the moon sorry i beg your pardon and it makes it seem red and it also bends passing through the atmosphere affected by the laws of uh gravity and the the particles so it the same phenomenon is refraction we have on the earth we see it refract going around the earth as it passes through the atmosphere especially if it's very hot so the lunar eclipse and these are partial lunar eclipses they're always curved every single time we see a lunar eclipse the the curvature of the shadow which the earth is casting is always curved from any direction any angle now the only object that can be curved from any direction any angle is a ball a sphere or in this case an oblate spheroid and my challenge to Howard is why are these always curved why do we never see anything well like this or why do we never see anything like this and the the odd thing about eclipses is we can predict when they're happening to a surprising degree you can look up years and years and advances in in eclipses how would we be able to do this if there the model doesn't work because the model does work we can predict these things very accurately now as for spaceflight i just wanted to point out that there's 77 government space agencies 20 private companies hundreds of companies in equipment manufacture components um servicing these companies the industry is worth over 370 billion there's there's probably over a million employees involved worldwide with these companies it's it's it's ridiculous to me that all of these people are somehow lying or making this stuff up it just doesn't make any sense i want to point out starlink and just think about starlink see the transceiver here it's a signal sending and receiving device it's always pointed up and you know i would like to know why it's pointed up why it's pointed at the sky why it has a system inside of it to autonomously track the satellites in orbit now there's over 2 000 satellites in orbit they service 29 countries with with internet service satellite internet service there's a massive controversy on space debris at the moment there's anger from china because they think that spacex who do it are cluttering up space it's and this is a picture of the spaceship that took a payload of these satellites up into orbit and there's multiple pictures of them that you can see so as for spaceflight i just don't know how or how they would deliver starlink without a satellite system around the earth um and perhaps how it can tell us but um i think i'll i'll leave it there and thank you so much for indulging me um and uh i'll kick it back to james for uh what he wants to do thank you thanks so much mark for that opening statement as well and want to let you know folks if you were new to modern day debate we are a neutral platform hosting debates on science religion and politics we hope you feel welcome no matter what walk of life you are from and also want to say don't forget to hit that subscribe button as we have many more juicy debates coming up in the future you don't want to miss them so hit that subscribe button and that notification bell as well and with that we're going to kick it into open discussion so gentlemen with if it gets too wild we'll cut it into two-minute intervals for your responses otherwise thanks so much and the floor is all yours for open dialogue thank you so much james there's no reason it has to be wild although i do want to i do want to just touch on how the the debate isn't really about ghosts or the bible or just any of this other stuff that you sort of brought up i i i find it kind of weird that you sort of bring up why we don't see into more than three dimensions i mean do you usually see in more than three dimensions day to day or i don't i don't understand why that would be something we expect oh you're on mute Howard i think you've got your microphone on mute mate thanks we've got tools so we can measure that there are things in infrared there are things in the delta and there's the ultraviolet so even though we can't see them you have tools that can measure these things so when we're looking at earth from outside we should have the tools to see what else is there that we can't see yeah we do yeah we do epics got multiple different camera systems that can take infrared and ultraviolet and a few other different types of picture i'm not sure why you're sort of unaware you mean you can even look up a weather map like taken from the weather satellites with you know infrared tracking of the the clouds and pressure systems across the earth so i'm not sure i mean i don't know why you would expect to see them on the same photo as an ordinary you know photo image well if we could start from number one at what i was hoping is we could go through my points what's number one and then afterwards we can go through your points oh sure sure that'd be brilliant yeah um number one was i'm sorry yeah the number one was that we can see too far thanks to the Guinness Book of Records oh yes solid yeah solid dose we can see really too far and everybody that comes to Benidorm can see streetlights 20 miles away so we shouldn't see anything that's under 80 meters tall yet we see the streetlights along the beachfront 20 miles away when looking at what from Benidorm at water level under the cable ski so we're clearly within 50 centimeters from the water and we can see the streetlights all night every night as long as it's clear because if it's atmospheric conditions then you know maybe we can't see very far but when it's a clear day we can clearly see that there's not even what's a streetlight 12 meters so say 15 meters with the being a little bit higher than the water so we can see that there's not even 15 meters of vertical drop from Benidorm to San Juan Alacanti or we can go to Denier and see that whole island of Ibiza which is supposed to be yeah i think you're moving subjects a bit fast here if you're just letting me get a word in you said that you went to many mathematicians i'd like to know who they are and whether they told you the earth was flat because it doesn't sound like you've quoted who you've gone to the the okay the image that you brought up was the Guinness Book of Records for the longest line of sight not the longest line of sight at sea level and even put the mountains in there to show that it wasn't at sea level with your measurements or your your sort of eyeballing it i don't know where this place is but you've got street lights that you're roughly estimating the the the height of you've got basically you don't know the elevation of that land at that height because you haven't given me any elevation you might be looking upwards rather than across a flat plane right looking across water right but the lights aren't obviously in water no they're they're right so they're about 15 meters above right i've been by myself you can look on google yeah the problem is that you haven't made any kind of measurements or any kind of like what you would do if you're you're looking to prove this is the case is take some actual measurements and not just eyeball it because while we can look at things and say hey that looks like it will fit there and that microwave looks like it'll fit in that space which i've done myself and unless you measure it you can be very very wrong about that just looking at things is not a very good way to empirically determine what you are looking at is correct if i may i do know the measurements of the tallest building in san pa la la canty it's on google everyone can check this the tallest building in san juan ala canty is 96 meters now we can see even the small buildings all the way down to the bottom and don't forget we can see the street lights along the beach promenade which are clearly much less than 80 meters from sea level there should be 80 meters of vertical drop in if i may quickly abita if you want a measurement the highest point of abita's mountain is 475 meters from sea level yet we can see the whole island right down to the port of abita from denier on a clear day yet they're supposed to be 2000 meters clear drop from where i am in the peninsula of spain to abita there should be 2000 meters drop yet we can see that there's not because we can see the whole mountain right down to the port clear hot day did you take into account the fraction it doesn't matter where no you didn't let me please don't make assumptions mark i'm trying to answer you i have made many observations at many different times of the day at many different times of the year it doesn't matter where the light source is doesn't matter where the sun is doesn't matter which distance you look there is always no vertical there's never any landscape or objects hidden behind or below the curvature that we're told okay so you say that but we don't have any measurements any clear measurements just rough approximations from yourself we don't have any photos any kind of evidence coming up from you what i'd like to do is tie it back to the boy photos that i had and ask you why it is that when you get further away than at a higher elevation you can see more of the wind turbines and not less if it's a flat plane what you would expect if you increase the distance and then elevate you should see less well before we go on to your points because i've got an answer well no i'd like to cover this i'd like to cover this so no no no no we're not going to take up all the time with your points this is directly connected to yours so if you could answer me that sure which one was that it's the laws of perspective which we all know as you get higher you can see further and obviously things like waves that are closer might appear bigger than the things that are further behind them this is standard law of perspective we all should know that and atmospheric conditions which is why we call it the vanishing points because things at the horizon get compressed more than things above the horizon or things below the horizon this is simple laws of perspective okay so why anyone in our class would know this why if it's completely flat if you get higher why do you see further if you're getting further away from the object why is that it's the laws of i didn't yeah the laws of perspective don't cover that i mean you're basically saying things that the horizon get more compressed no matter what where's the compression no matter what shape the surface is when you get higher you can see further either on a flat surface or a curved surface you know that's not true yes it is everyone knows that you're the only person that's ever disagreed with that but but you're basically saying that that entire the amount that you see is all given by like you can see way more than 25 meters of those wind turbines and you're saying that's all elevation that's ridiculous no it's ridiculous to say that ships go over the horizon but then when I show landscape like street lights buildings or a whole island oh that hasn't gone over the horizon then how do you explain those ships over the horizon they've been cut off from the bottom how do you explain that they're on the horizon so they're getting compressed more than half of them half of them are getting compressed there's no compression they're they're half cut off I don't want to talk over each other otherwise yeah okay no fair enough yeah yeah fair enough so my point is the bottom of the boat is closer to the horizon than the top of the boat or the bottom of the wind turbine is closer to the horizon than the top of the wind turbine so it gets more compressed that's why it's called the vanishing points and waves waves in the ocean that are closer will appear bigger like if I show my hand now this hand looks like it's smaller doesn't it it's not smaller mark you know it's the same size yeah but half that hasn't been cut off called the law of perspective now if you put this on the horizon not only does it look smaller than the wave that's in front of it it's also getting compressed as well as look being further away so obviously what you've shown are visual um optical effects and my point is if you'd taken the measurements until the boat or if you'd given the measurements until the wind turbine we could all see that we shouldn't even see them at all but we know that when you when you it's not if I could just get a word in you've been speaking for a while now like when you showed further away yeah it gets smaller yes but where is it being cut off it doesn't move upwards as it gets further away unless it is vanishing behind the horizon and it doesn't get compressed you see no compression at the bottom at all in any of the photos what you're referring to just does not exist because there is no compression there and anybody can see it I live near the ocean I can see it and and basically you've just made up compression because you want to excuse excuse at the bottom of the boat has been completely cut off I mean would you like me to show the photos again and you can tell me where the compression is I'd like you to admit that the ocean has waves and that some of those waves will appear bigger than what is much further behind and what's getting compressed because it's further away and close to the horizon will be hidden by the wave that's closer to you yes you must be joking that is not what is happening at all and they've done this on flat lakes as well so that's absolutely ridiculous I've seen footage from flat lakes where they've taken a helicopter and gone and then dropped the helicopter and it vanishes behind the apparent horizon there's no compression there same compression is like saying there's a magic pixie they're doing it there's no compression mark what you're talking about uh was actually debunked and so was the discovery channel yes it was because that was only seven that was only seven miles and I'm showing you a photo of 20 miles and I can show you a video where the street lights 20 miles away which is much more than seven miles that was faked and so was the national geographic one where they had a flag and they went away but the horizon was above the flag so they faked footage to try and convince people like yourself yeah I mean you say that you say that but that's just a hollow shallow empty claim of debunking that's just ridiculous you can use whatever names against me you want and what names but I can't say anything I said that the claim is not debunked and it's a hollow claim from you that it is we're gonna have to go into just to make sure that it's not too rowdy okay can I go first my point is mark you haven't given any measurements yet you're saying that I haven't I've just told you the measurements of the tallest building in alicante I've told you the tallest mountain in Ibiza I've told you the distances so please don't use reverse psychology you haven't you're the one that isn't giving distances and you're the one that isn't giving the vertical drop or the height of these objects so please don't use reverse psychology to discredit me when you're the one that's not giving sizes and distances is that it the two minutes I don't need two minutes it's simple you haven't given sizes I have okay well I gave like the distances that that boy camera was taken away and then elevated and I have I have given distance and people have measured distances you just say hey it's been debunked and that's all there's nothing that you've said that has any kind of scientific empirical measurements to it you've just said hey this is this is this is that I can say from here it's an argument from personal incredulity now I want to move on to the constellations and especially one please can I just get one thing in I do want to give mark two minutes before we change points please is a mark are you good with your yeah yeah go for it go for thank you not only have I give the height of the objects and the distance from them I've also said that there's supposed to be eight inches of vertical drop per mile squared until 2000 miles that's accurate and there's many other calculations but whatever calculation your mathematics or my mathematicians that I've asked that aren't flat earthers by the way they were total normal that's mathematician groups on Facebook in Spanish and in English I've confirmed many different calculations I can dig out my point is are you denying that there should be five meters vertical drop over five miles that there should be 20 sorry 20 meters vertical drop over 10 miles are you denying that there should be approximately 80 meters over 20 miles because I've done the math with other mathematicians I've now presented them math multiple times yet you're accusing me of not being scientific when my main point is I have made primary observations and they are reproducible you are coming here with secondary information that you believe in because if you'd made your own primary observations with measurements of the height and distance from what there should be lost then you wouldn't be sat there so smug you wouldn't be like wow maybe we are being lied to about the dimensions of earth because we can see way too far check for yourself stop using secondary information and trying to turn it around when you're the one that hasn't provided sizes and distances please yeah so you're just now insulting me so you're turning around insulting me excuse me this is my time Howard can you please so I don't believe that you've accurately measured this building I don't think you've provided any kind of elevation for the ground the building is on what I think of that you've just decided that's the size of the building and you've just you've just well been a child for a start and you've just basically said hey this is the height I think it should be without any kind of where's your where's your measurements where are they where's your hey can I please finish can I please finish what you've done is Google the size of a building said hey this is how much I reckon I can see this is the distance that I reckon I should be able to see and then said oh that's my empirical measurement of this building without knowing hey what's the what's the altitude of the land it's on how much refraction is there on a day you just don't care you just don't care about what what doing things in empirical manner or using a model that actually works now I think we should get on to the next point with constellations and the circumpolar stars I think we should address why you can't see the southern cross from England and or you're in Spain you might be able to see something from that latitude but why if you go above a certain latitude you cannot see the southern cross and when you go below a certain latitude in the southern hemisphere you can't see Polaris and why in in the north and south hemisphere do you see the same constellations rotating and how does it work on your model you need to present that sure thing but because you've just made a claim against me that's not true I'm going to answer you I am skeptical and I went on national Spanish television and I offered 10 000 euros of my own money for people to present the evidence that I can't find myself even I've made multiple observations I offered 10 000 euros for half of the expected curvature over any distance so please don't talk to me about an open source investigation when you're relying on secondary information I'm making primary observations and I've even offered money for people to compare evidence and prove me wrong with at least half of the expected curvature nobody could provide evidence so take that back and go and do your own observations before you accuse people of reckoning things I've been making an open source investigation offering money nobody's been able to prove me wrong so I'm here giving you an opportunity and you haven't been able to do so so let's move on yeah that's fine you want to talk about the star trails which part did you want to talk about I went over it as I said and I'll repeat it is why is it that somebody in the southern hemisphere can all see at a certain luxury they can all see the same constellations all circling the same way which is opposite of the north why is that and why cannot somebody in the north see those stars even though somebody in Africa Australia South America and big shout out to sell in in Africa South Africa in fact um why can they all see the same constellations rotating right it's quite simple oh yeah then it should be easy to explain fantastic go let's try it please don't interrupt me I'll try oh sorry yeah sorry I wasn't thinking yeah apology accepted so when we're looking north it's anti-clockwise when we're looking south it's clockwise either way the stars are going from the east to the west so that would be expected if I'm looking this way I'd see them going anti-clockwise they're going that way yeah over me east to west now if I look backwards they're clockwise it's like if I put a number nine on the ceiling and then I go and stand on the other side of the room it doesn't look like a nine anymore it looks like a six it's called the laws of perspective you really should screw up on that but my point was we do see Polaris stationary as could be expected on either a flat model or a sphere or a concave model or who knows what other models there could be but my point is why do we still see Orion in the same part of the sky passing the same path in sky no matter what time of year when we should be on the other side of the sun tilting in a different way why do we see the same constellation above the equator and how come it passes the same part of the sky just at a different hour that doesn't work on a globe does it no it does it does because we're a long way away from Orion there's so far away from Orion that the amount of distance that we travel around the Sun isn't enough to change the apparent position of Orion and and what I want to know is if if we're on a flat model then what is the earth rotating other stars rotating around us why is it if we're on a flat model and we're over here why can't we see some other star that somebody on the southern hemisphere can see if it's flat you're over here someone on the southern hemisphere is over here but wait the person in Africa is over here and the person in Africa can see what you can't and they can even though they're twice the distance away your explanation makes zero sense on on your model I haven't given one yet I'll give you one now if you want sure go for it give me the model of how that happens on a flat no you just you just said I haven't given one yet so I'll try now but while I'm doing that James James is it possible you could get the image two on the screen for when I come back to my points after I answer Mark's question sure thank you it's the image two about the stars while you're digging that out you remark you really need to screw up on the laws of perspective mate because when things are when things are in the distance yeah and you're coming away not only do they get smaller but they will also appear lower down it's not that they're lower down it's that because you get further away they appear lower down so they will get to a point where they will be obstructed by things like the waves in the ocean yeah same laws of perspective mate so buildings mountains as well as the atmosphere isn't transparent you know over such a distance things will disappear either because of that refraction or distortion from pollution and stuff or simply because they appear so low down that things that are closer obstruct them so again you really do need to learn the laws of perspective because before you come and debate people that have been making this investigation for years because I'm no expert but this is basic stuff mate like I say just look at my hands figure it out let me know when you've got the image on the screen please yeah just before you do that I'll just address that because in the example that I gave and what I showed was that the person in Africa was further away even still than the person in the northern hemisphere so how does that work they shouldn't be able to see the stars but they do so that point is completely useless because you're saying hey somebody further away shouldn't be able to see the stars but Africa's further away still and they still see it sorry what was your point that they still see the southern cross yes but they're below the equator they're below the equator now yes so how are they further away if they're if they're further out than the equator then they're going to see things in the south closer than things in the north obviously so what's the shape here is it a disc with the southern hemisphere around the outside is it is it a a brute roll with an all-up on one end what exactly are you saying here hi my name's Howard and I'm a glow skeptic I'm not making any claims of what Earth is I'm just proving that we can see too far and that things don't add up for the dimensions or the model that we've been given so you haven't addressed my point I don't believe addressed my point I have not addressed how that works if the globe model is wrong that works specifically because the globe model is right you haven't addressed my predictions why we can predict things you haven't addressed the blood moon there's so much you haven't addressed all you want to do is go to no because we're going to run out of time and we're not going to be able to get to what I want and I think that's exactly your plan predictions I would love to go to predictions what predictions have you made that have come through predictions are good but can have alternative explanations the astrolabe is based on a geocentric model and that works too so the sextant which you brought up is based upon star maps in fact mc tunas giving out $10,000 to anybody that can use the sextant on their model and make it work without using the star maps from the globe model and nobody has been able to do that why can't you do that I'd like to look into it I'm not an expert but I know that a sextant depends on track please let me finish please let me please let me finish speaking yes a sextant works on triangulation a triangle has a flat base so how does that work on a curved base mark doesn't does it no it's curved and uses the sight lines to the stars no it does and it uses the star maps from the globe model the problem that every flat earther has said the reason why they can't do it is because they are not allowed to use the star maps based upon a globe model and that's the problem so if you can make these predictions can you make predictions about when the next eclipses will be can anybody make predictions yes I don't care that you think that there's some kind of weird alternative hippie-dippy ghost by a biblical thing that's going to show us the whole story is excuse me could I finish I think I actually actually can I finish can I finish the whole point all right wow we have to cut into two minute segments again go ahead mark wow just can't can't do it um all right so the problem is that the globe model makes a number of predictions again and again and again that you you cannot make you'd all you say is I'm incredulous about this model that's all you've got that's all you've ever presented and just personal incredulity now you can say hey there's alternative hypothesis but you're asking us to stroll out a model which 99 of the time works flawlessly and you're asking us to stroll out for ignorance that is what you're after ignorance the model works that's why we use it if you have a better and more consistently result producing model then present it but you have nothing nothing are you done yep right james can you put the second image on please because I have answered three of your points already we haven't answered any of mine so it seems like that's your motive isn't it so let's put the second image on when you got chance please james images up thank you so as you can clearly see in the middle of the image when we're in I can't see anything hang on that's called blind faith uh yeah it's because of the because you can't seem to work at technical stuff so let's look at let's look at that image for a second I have to get to the screen because james can't show it to me so you're gonna have to hold on while I while I get the stream I'll hold on james can't show it to me because of technical issues so I have to I have to go to the stream want to remind you guys our link to the description as mark is looking that up you can find our guest link below as well as if you think you have a friend who would enjoy debates like this one including this one don't forget to hit that share button below you can hit that share button and share this link with anybody who might enjoy this topic as well so while you're looking for the image I'll explain to the audience it's not only that we can see the same stars as thousands of years ago even though we're supposedly going around the milky way at half a million miles an hour which means we would literally be in a few years as we would have traveled as far as the closest star so we are clearly not seeing any disfigurement in any of the 88 constellations but my main points can you now see the image sorry yes I can great you see those red arrows that I've drawn on there mark yeah it doesn't matter how far something is away and you're on the left of the sun let's say just the left so it's easy to see in June you're looking left and you're looking upwards when it's December you're looking right the complete opposite direction and you're looking down as well so you should not see Orion or any of the other constellations which we do crossing the sky in the exact same part of the sky following the and you're talking about Orion sorry I just want to talk about all constellations but Orion's a good example because it's over my over my sky no matter what time of year it is it always crosses the same path that wouldn't work then you've got a problem with your eyes because Orion vanishes into the sun's wayer for part of the year so I don't know what you're talking about yeah there's there's about two or three yeah it does what are you talking about then you say all year it's not all year is it you're just reputed your own stuff before you start laughing just listen to what I'm saying there's two of these please please don't laugh over me or just mute yourself if you have to laugh like a little but listen there's two or three months where Orion is in the daytime but apart from those two or three months I'm talking about six months difference yeah so in within six months difference when you can still see Orion in the night sky just that it might be at the very start of the night or it could be just before the morning it's still in my view and it's still it always crosses the same path in the sky so apart from those two or three months that it's in the daytime going above us apart from those two or three months I'm talking about the nine or ten months that we can see it in the night sky and it's in the same part of the sky going exactly the same path now if you look at the analena or analena of the sun or the analena of the moon yeah over a month the moon makes a figure eight this is getting on to a new subject I'd like to address the previous subject before we go over the sun makes a figure eight yeah I'd like to address the Orion thing please I'm talking about Orion how are you going on to the sun I'd like to hold on I'm trying to guys Howard I've actually got like my computer by having PowerPoint open in addition to OBS and zoom is it's kind of draining on my computer to where it says low system resources may affect your audio quality try closing some applications so I've got to close PowerPoint pretty quick yeah I think I think we both say nothing else yeah I think I think we're good with that so just to finish my point because it's a comparison we see a figure eight in the sun because it clearly changes path throughout the year no matter what model you believe in you agree there's an dilemma it changes its position in the sky over the year we would expect the same to happen with all of the stars especially the ones near the equator but we don't which is why I'm talking about Orion specifically and why I'm saying that it's always crossing the same path in the sky and like my image clearly showed that one time of the year we're looking that way the other time of the year we're looking that way so we shouldn't even see the same stars never mind that they cross the same path no well the thing is and it's hilarious that you said you see Orion all year and then you've had to retract that and say oh well it's not been all year it's actually been three months where it's behind the sun's glare the whole point is that we see Orion lower and lower on the sky until it gets behind the sun's glare now this is a consequence of the earth spinning and that's what we see you said it yourself we see it lower and lower you said that yourself and and that is why excuse me can I finish yeah and so when the earth it excuse me be quiet this is my time how it is true you have to stop interrupting so as the as the Orion gets lower and lower that is the position of the earth from around the sun changing and then it goes in behind the sun's glare and we don't say it for the three months which you just admitted even though earlier you said we saw it the whole year so this is this is completely to be expected in the globe model because the earth doesn't go round from one side to the other and point in the same direction you seem to think it's it's it just changes 180 and then sits there yeah that's what you seem to think that it just changes 180 degrees and sits there no what it does is it's constantly spinning every day or 365 days and when it's halfway round it doesn't mean it's just pointed that way constantly for the rest of its travel around I think I think you let that graphic go go to your brain a bit because you think it's stationary and not moving it's spinning and as we move around it gets lower in the sky until it's behind the sun and we can't see it because of the sun's glare which you just admitted go for it I forgot that I had you on mute Howard I'm gonna unmute you now you have to click on mute on your end as well thank you I clearly said that it's always in the same part of the sky and travels the same path in the sky that conflicts with what you're claiming I said that it gets lower if I said it gets lower I wouldn't say that you'd see in the same part of the sky traveling the same path so who's who's a liar now you're actually twisting my words and I said that it's always in the same part of the sky throughout the whole year there's only two or three months that we can't see it because it's daytime but I never said it gets lower and also what you're saying about my graphic it's obvious at night time you're looking that way in June and at night time you're looking that way in December because supposedly the heliocentric model helios which is the sun god which makes your sun worshipper is in the middle so if it's in the middle you can't be looking the same direction because it would be daytime sorry mate but stop twisting my words and being a liar me being a liar yeah what you say is it travels across the sky and gets lower in the sky that is the earth spinning and the reason why you can't see Orion in the in the when the sun's up is because it's behind the sun not just because it's bright that's it's got nothing to do with it the sun's in the sky the sun's not low down what are you talking about mark you're making a bit of a fool at yourself here mate you're lying in front of everybody and you're twisting my words when i'm certainly not lying you can see in that image what i'm saying i put an image because i didn't want you to twist my words the image shows what i'm saying and everyone's heard me say it about five times you're lying about what i've said i never said it gets lower i said it clearly stays in the same part of the sky do you really just think that the the sun's in the sky and doesn't go lower are you are you aware you just said that i didn't say that the sun doesn't go lower i said that the stars don't go lower stop twisting my words to try and gain a point you are losing points of it where you have to go into q and a in just a couple of minutes of each of you have a two minutes to draw together the final threads from tonight's debate we'll start with given that we started at the very beginning with howard we'll start with howard and then we'll go over to mark read for the last word howard you've got two minutes great so just to remind everybody there's supposed to be five meters drop over five miles go to the beach go to a river or a lake and make your own observations and stop listening to people like mark and stop taking secondary information with blind faith make your own primary observations then go and look at that secondary information that i said that either from the international space freight station or the esa and look at your own country search for a real photo of a whole country and try and date it back to see variety over the years you won't find any there's hardly any pictures because they're not photos which is why they're all different colors which is why there's no signs of city and the daytime but lots of light at night and that's why some have got clouds and some have got no clouds go and look at videos of the earth rotating or geostationary satellites and see that the clouds are fixed throughout the whole rotation and then look for historical evidence of the globe you won't find any but you will find books artifacts carvings and you'll even find tools like the sextant the sundial and my favorite the astrolabe which does predict eclipses and on the eclipses i wanted to say is it the stallium eclipse where you see the sun and the moon at the same time above the horizon it's not shade of the earth that causes a shadow it's different phases of illumination because if you put water under moonlight during a full moon or shortly after the full moon you'll see that moonlight chills water i don't know if it gives cold or takes heat but you use a magnifying glass and you can amplify the effect which means you're manipulating the cause so it's definitely an independent variable moonlight chills it's silver sunlight's gold it heats there's yin there's yan masculine feminine proton electron we're in a big atom atmosphere come on guys get your own observations and stop listening to these people and stop trusting secondary information thank you very much thank you very much and we're going to jump into the q and a soon folks so if you have been having a question here is how you can submit it there are two ways one if you tag me with at modern a debate in the live chat and then the other is if you send in the super chat put those at the top of the list and thanks so much mark the floor is all yours for your two minute closing as well fantastic thank you so i had a number of challenges for how i noticed he did didn't address the blood moon at all just threw in some rink-a-dink expectable accommodation at the end just just trying to say anything to wave it away um i brought up star link and why the dish is always pointing up he never addressed that anyway you wanted to do his four points first of course because he didn't want me to actually get to mine um i managed to tie mine in with his points luckily but you know if if Howard had his way we'd never even get to my points at all which is exactly what he planned obviously um he didn't um understand that the globe doesn't like it doesn't stay in one position he doesn't understand that when when the earth is rotating a ryan will move across the sky he doesn't understand that during those three months it's behind the sun even though he's saying why is it never behind the sun he doesn't understand anything about this model um this model makes testable predictions that show when meteor storms had happened he didn't address that show when comets would come back he didn't address that will show when eclipses would happen didn't address that there's tons that he just did not address and wants to wave it all away and say hey it's just coincidence that these people are predicting all of these things that that they happen to be able to predict with 100 accuracy as i said earlier Howard basically doesn't have a model he doesn't make any predictions his his pals don't make any predictions he basically wants to swap the working model that we have for ignorance and incredulity ghosts and fairy tales and whatever he's dreamt up in four dimensions in his head um it's it's pointless to try and replace a working model with ignorance and i would i would ask people to go out and learn about these things because we can explain them and we can explain why they work thank you thank you very much gentlemen and i want to let you know folks as always we were excited about i don't we've never talked about this but if you think that you know somebody who would enjoy this debate who would be like oh i like listening to this i want to hear more you can click that share button below highly encourage and with that we're going to jump into these questions thanks so much for your question this one coming in from stupid beta energy says how does howard explain the continually changing live stream view of the globe from the international space station not even disney has a technology yet to do that with cgi try watching um star wars and then tell me they haven't got the technology to use a fish eye lens from a high altitude and then get people in either an aeroplane that's zero g uh up and down to give the effect that they're floating i've made plenty of videos on my previous um appearances here this time i've just brought five simple images just to try and focus on them and not get distracted but i've used in previous um debates videos that show exactly how they can fake it with hollywood studio technology this one coming in from factationalist network aka cas guest moderator appreciate all your support cas says modern day debate kickstarter flat earth versus globe earth full flight debate around the world with compass live stream get paul commission to fly the plane for it thanks for that idea that's a juicy one to say the least his son hakan thanks for your question as well says to george why is the sun not changing optical size i don't have the answers but my theory would be that we're looking at a higher dimensional object which was why we only see one face of the moon because we're seeing a physical face of the moon yet we don't see the sides the top or the back ever and they can give explanations that it's perfectly rotating the opposite way at the same exact time as us and that the sun is 400 times bigger but just magically exactly 400 times closer the moon is 400 times closer than the sun which makes them appear the same size so my question is why don't the sun and the moon ever change size from comparing to each other and thank you because yeah we don't know thanks for your question as well says davin good says what is the saros cycle when was it discovered what is the s it's spelled s a r o s the saros cycle and when was it discovered is it for me or mark they don't even say well while you're looking for the next question star link bounces signals off the electromagnetic firmament known as the van allen belt satellites use balloons nasa is the biggest consumer of helium you can check this in google this is really related to the question yeah no it's your focus this one's going to well the saros cycle is the recurrence of eclipses that's uh and i must admit i had to look that up yes it's uh periodic recurrence of eclipses which i guess was my point so it may have been directed towards how astrolabe you can use an astrolabe and predict all the eclipses all of the seasons the sun the moon everything and ninety nine percent of all data is transferred under submarine cables you can google that too this one coming in from do appreciate your question stupid beta energy says obviously the visibility of orion is consistent with the spherical earth model please refer you don't have to do this james but please refer to the image that i used in the second slide and figure it out for yourself this one in from brandon hanson says mark is this your let's see more of a i just did an attack they say this is mark out riding so they say mark they say mark you seem to be interrupting george constantly it's all right man keep practicing and you won't be let's see he said uh don't quit your day job what do you say to that well you know at least i have a day job thanks this is what i have to say we are thankful for the speakers and so we let you guys roast them a bit because they've got thick yeah i mean they're debating on the public or on the internet so we know that they've got thick skin but i do want to acknowledge the fact that we do appreciate our speakers and this one coming in from elabaca says hey howard do the same experiment on moonlight when there's no moon you'll get the same chilling effect without it why how can i have a glass in the moonlight compared to a glass not in the moonlight if there's no moonlight you have to have moonlight to compare to moonshade yeah that's what they're saying there is no expect yeah there is no experiment when there's no moon there because that's what they're saying mark mark let me explain it because you obviously don't get either you obviously don't get it either you obviously don't get it if there's no moon then both glasses are in the moonshade you need moonlight to have one under the moonlight and one or two or three that are not under the moonlight then you get your thermometer and you check the temperature and the only one that's dropped is the one in the moonlight try for yourself instead of going to radiative cooling explanations and other people say so just try for yourself like making an observation over water level instead of using other people's boat images that we've all seen for the last five six years yeah i'll just explain how you do that you basically get a like when there's no moonlight you do the same experiment you cover one and then you leave the others out in the non-moonlit light and you'll get the same result the one under cover will be warmer than the ones out in moonlight and that's because as i think the person as ending in the question would explain that the cover is actually trapping in heat that will make the glass undercover slightly warmer so that's how you do it without moonlight and if you get the same result with the moon not involved then you know it's not the moon that is causing the effect that is produced what cover are you talking about both glasses are unsheltered they are not covered or that would be radiative cooling watch my lips no cover out in the garden out in the garden one in the moonlight and one in shade you can have shade from a vertical please stop interrupting me you've been told by one yet stop and let me finish first there's a wall it's vertical it's not covering the glass vertical wall gives shade from the moon put a few glasses in different parts of the garden where the moonlight does not hit them not covered okay so you don't need the moon to do that do you understand what i'm saying yes i understand what you're saying you don't need the moon to do that so if you do the exact same thing with no moon in the sky and you get the same result no let me finish let me finish now and you get the same result i.e the glass out in the open with no moon is colder then you get the same result and the moon has nothing to do with it they're all in the open mark do you not understand the one that's not near the wall then i feel like i'm explaining it to like if you just do it when the moon is not up and do what are you comparing they're both exactly the same experiment exactly the same experiment how about you do it instead of talking about what this is what the question was about i can't believe you don't understand this this is what the question was saying unsheltered no cover that's fine that's fine that's fine okay i agree with you they're unsheltered out in the open what you do is the same experiment with no moon right there's no comparison let's let them finish because if the same thing happens and one is warmer then if the moon isn't there it has nothing to do with the moon it doesn't happen and you can check with a magnifying glass have you done the question was has you done that there's no moonlight when there's a new moon you need a moon so that there's moonlight and then you can compare moon shade to moonlight and you can amplify the effect with a magnifying glass that's called manipulating the cause so you know it's the independent variable i'm just trying to get you to understand the question that's all you don't understand that they're both out in the open there's no shelter because if you do it you'll see if there's no moonlight there's no change on either where if there's moonlight it changes two or three degrees down and if you use a magnifying glass it can go five or six degrees down you're amplifying the cause so you're proving it's the independent variable my friend the question all right george the question was the question was have you done it with no moon at all no because i've no thank you that's because i've already put multiple glasses in different parts of my garden which were shaded from the moonlight and none of them change temperature so obviously if there's no moonlight there's no change but if there is moonlight there is change this one if there's a magnifying glass there's more change try for yourself audience we've spent a lot of time on this one this term Anton Gomez says george where does gravity come from if the earth is flat if you say it's accelerating how come it doesn't go infinite if there is a magical force known as gravity and it's not just relative density and momentum like many people can argue well then we need to redefine what gravity is because if there is a pole it's pulling down it's not pulling to a center because there's no curvature measurable over any distance which is why the best mark can provide is some crappy distorted images of boats which should be completely hidden or wind turbines that should be completely hidden if we really knew the distance don't because he leaves them things out and then tries to make out as if i don't bring measurements and sizes and calculations which i clearly did everyone can rewind this one coming in from do appreciate your question as well azian talk says great job mark george your math for calculating curves for a circle is wrong do or can you graph a circle you can prove a curve calculator on paper try it if you are not sure about the claim you can go to metabunk.com curve calculator you can go and find a chart of earth's curve in kilometers or in miles you can go on facebook and get mathematicians to give you other formula they will all agree that over five miles there should be five meters that's an easy one to remember even for mark and over 10 miles there should be 20 meters now that's not very far you can see that with the naked eye too you don't need a telescope or a camera just a clear day or over 20 miles there should be 80 meters drop so please do check the math before making false accusations about me because i have checked the math with many experts charts online calculators and then i've made my own observations which is something mark and many of you haven't done because it's called blind faith in secondary information not primary observations which is real scientific method do it just give a big shout out to ozian thank you so much mate uh to your your awesome this one coming in from surgeon general says hey you there click that join button and become a member of modern a debate thanks for your support surgeon general says next to the subscribe button you find the membership button if you want to help support the channel and get cool perks like access to member only debates and content thanks for your support surgeon general it's true we do have membership so if you dig those highly encourage you to check them out and anton gomez thanks for your question says mr modern a debates have a banana thank you and i appreciate that ellie baka or ila baka thanks for your question says then show that done with just a vertical cover then just do the same with no moon do it and compare that's how you validate the moon as the cause i think that one's for mark because it's he's clearly saying it's the moon no they're saying exactly what i said in order to test to see whether the moon is the cause you do it without the moon present at all and if the same thing happens then the moon is not the cause of the phenomenon that you are observing it's very the same thing doesn't happen you need moon shade and you haven't done it you said no you haven't done it do you understand that there's no moonlight in moon shade moon shade means there's no moonlight it's shaded from a object like a vertical wall yes so you put it next to the wall with not next to the wall shadows can be very tall i can put it 20 meters away from the wall if it's wherever you want then put it put it 20 meters away i mean this question apparently was for me even though i don't think it was you told me to answer it which was your question if there's moon shade then you are making a comparison between moonlight and not moonlight you can't do that if there's no not no well what they're talking about is you've got position a and position b right you've got your one way out in the open you've got your one in shadow right both in the open okay way out in the open i said okay you've got one in shadow you've got one not in shadow okay position a and position b and you you're basically making the hypothesis that it is the moon that's causing one to be hot and one to be colder that's the hypothesis right so in order to test that what you would do is do it without the moon in the sky at all which you said you hadn't done and if the same thing happens then it cannot be the moon causing that phenomenon if you use a magnifying glass on the one in the shade and use a magnifying glass in the one under the moonlight you will see no difference in the one in the shade because there's no moonlight right there's nothing affecting it where the one in the moonlight will go even lower in temperature please just check for yourself instead of being discouraged by this silly claim that's what the person is asking that's what they're asking moon why haven't you done that moon shade multiple you can put five different glasses in different areas in your garden that are in the shade of the moon that means there's no moonlight so you can compare multiple glasses under moonlight multiple glasses not under the moonlight you have to do it the same night so that you can compare the difference between moonlight and not moonlight when there's no moon there's no moonlight to compare why you won't get the same you won't get the same results because if you hold a magnifying glass in the moon shade it won't make a damn difference think about what I'm saying go and check for yourself stop trying to discourage people let's hear what mark why not just do it once with no moon at all to see if the moon has nothing to do with it I've done it twice you've not done it once yet you're making claims yes you are you haven't done it admit it you haven't done it thank you so you admit you haven't done it so you're speaking out to arrogance thank you and no that's not it's it's basically a control experiment is taking out of this is what's called a control experiment you remove what you think is the cause of it to test to see whether in actuality that is the cause or it could be another cause and that's why you would do it and that's what the person is asking moon shade what's the harm in it what's the harm in it Howard shade of the moon this one coming up from do it to move we have to move the next one this one coming in from Ozzie and talk says a magnifying glass cannot increase the temperature of the source light moon is not hot so it won't work to magnify the heat laser light is an exception moonlight doesn't heat water moonlight chills water you can check with your own thermometer and a magnifying glass or you can get those goggles that measure the temperature with laser and you can look at wet surfaces and you'll find that wet surfaces that are shaded do not measure the same temperature as wet surfaces that are not shaded the unshaded areas are colder during the full moon and the one the first days of the warning moon so yeah people can check for themselves and the control is to have shade versus moonlight that's the control when it's no moon there is no control because they're both in the moon shade check for yourself if you want but it's a waste of time it's better to do when there is moonlight to compare to that's the control and the magnifying glass is the amplification the manipulation which verifies the independent variable you can check this on google as well it's science this one from elobaca says wait you seriously have evidence of water temperature decreasing with a magnifying glass that would break all known laws of physics where can i find that yeah we obviously need to redefine the laws of thermodynamics and we obviously need to redefine the laws of gravity if there is such a force or it's just relative density because things that are heavy like steam right rises it condenses into a cloud rain drops because it's denser than the air that's relative density no need for gravity with heavy metals that go up in smoke or steam it's all about density this one coming in from thanks for your question lockbeard says you need to do controls i.e without a moon at all good look pal you do that and let us know your results but try doing it when there is a moonlight and then try and make an excuse when you get the same results as everyone else that's bothered to do it instead of making excuses and trying not to do it just do it this one like making an observation at sea level just do it nike just do it ozzy and tox says five meters over five miles you do understand they said you do understand that the earth is not flat right even you should see the bumps with your eyes some bumps are over five meters over a body of water like a lake that hasn't even got waves you should see a 10 meter pole or a 10 meter um object half obstructed below or behind the horizon it's simple over five meters this over five miles is supposed to be five meters of drop get to water level and check for yourself and then you'll be on the globe skeptic side this one coming in from do appreciate your question ozzy and or this one comes in from ilabaka again says doing it without moon means both glasses should be at the same temperature test it you just probably won't because you already got the result that you wanted no people have done it and they've found that the temperature doesn't change of either because the atmosphere is the same temperature in the garden it's like this is a stupid way to try and divert from doing it just do it when there's moonlight and you'll get the results that i'm telling you and then if you want to do it when there's no moon you'll see that there's no change in either temperature because there's no change there's no moonlight to change it it's it's ridiculous gotcha and this one coming in from do appreciate your question professor phil bell says please ask howard what exactly is an astrolabe and how does it work okay supposedly the astrolabe was invented by the ancient arabic civilization or maybe in spain actually during the arabic um conquest the point is they're like a compass and they'll or a clock and you can tell it where the sun is or what season you're in and it'll tell you when there's going to be an eclipse it'll tell you when there's the change of season they were tools based on the geocentric model not necessarily flat but geocentric where the earth this uh the earth is stationary and the moon and the stars and the sun go around us like we see them and they were able to calculate the movements and the distances and everything and they still can to this day just like a sundial still works to this day this one coming in from do appreciate your question asian says i will measure the moonshade with or without the moonlight the moon tonight for you with a magnifying lens to shade traps heat so easy cool story bro but if you're not shouted with anything above it then it doesn't matter if you're i mean shaded from what if there's no moon they're both in moonshade it's like this is ridiculous it's it's like i'm in kindergarten and people are trying to make out there's a difference between moonshade when there's no moon when there's no moon it's all moonshade i can't believe we have to keep going over this it's ridiculous but yeah the pyramids were built under the three stars of the belt of orion and they're still in line with the three stars of orion's belt so the astrolabe was obviously used for the pyramids to be built in alignment with orion's belt this one coming in from do appreciate your question as well quinlan 1977 says ask howard how a thermos bottle works a thermos bottle yes is that what like a flask what i put my coffee in and it stays hot correct cool i'm guessing because it's uh like got a vacuum from the outer casing and you seal it it helps contain the heat for a longer time but yeah um this one coming in from azian talk says i have video proof on my channel that the earth curves down and away just with a drone and i measured pixel height of a ship simple curve proved well the cool thing is i've spoken to multiple pilots on camera and off camera and they all admit that they do not and they're much higher than a drone yeah they do not have to dip the nose even in a 12 hour flight they actually maintain three degrees inclined and the old fashioned uh concord which used to fly higher uh altitude and much faster that had to maintain a five degree inclination for 12 hours so there's obviously no curve down but there could be curve up i don't know i'm not a flat earther i'm not a concave earther i'm still making inquiries and i can accept that we might never know for sure and i can humble myself that maybe only the creator or whatever's outside of this creation can see the whole shape where mere mortals obsessed with the theory of knowledge trying to make out we know everything trying to come up with a new model to debunk an old model when all we need to do is debunk what is not true and keep an open mind and keep investigating we might never know what we could at least be humble and be going in the right direction instead of being misled and manipulated with beliefs and stuff that we can't see with primary observations this one from mr jones 1972 says please ask howard where is his video in which he has done the moon chills water experiment in its entirety yeah as i said on my video i've done the experiment twice and i waited half an hour for the effects i'm not going to make a half an hour video of me stood there waiting for it to chill because people will still claim that it's fake i'm not asking you to believe me i've never claimed a model i've never said that you have to trust me i'm saying go and make your own observations do your own moonlight experiments watch how the stars don't change path throughout the whole year you'll see for yourself i'm not asking you to believe me i'm informing you on how you can check for yourself that's science you got it and want to say thanks for tuning in today folks we really do appreciate it thanks for all of your questions and most of all thanks to our guests it has been a true pleasure to have them modern day debate does have a discord i think mark said i don't know if it was the mdd discord or a different discord you said you were going to pop into afterwards but want to let you know folks we don't shout it out enough that modern day debate does have a discord led by let's farm and others and they do a fantastic yeah i was going to the modern day debate discord afterwards so if you are interested in the aftershow or asking me any questions do pop into the mdd discord and i'm sure james will have the link there 100 that is the modern day debate discord linked in the description highly encourage you to check that out and we get huge thanks to people like mark as well as like i said let's farm who's on a fantastic job making the discord community a fantastic place and so we hope you feel welcome there as well as here at the youtube channel no matter what walk of life you are from we hope you feel welcome whether you be flat earth or globe earth or politically left politically right black white gay straight christian atheist you name it we're glad you're here and so thanks one more time gentlemen i will be back in just a moment with an update on upcoming debates my dear friends as you don't want to miss those in fact we've got one i've got to tell you about right now as i forgot to show this during the entire debate at the bottom right of your screen whether or not trans women should be able to participate in traditional you could say traditionally women sports that is going to be tomorrow night alex stein who recently had viral success even was on tucker carlson fox news he is going to be on with brenton langel uh a longtime friend of the channel as well they'll be debating tomorrow night casill be hosting that and you don't want to miss it it's going to be huge but once again want to say thank you so much to mark reid and george has been a true pleasure to have you thank you james thanks james my pleasure no hard feelings mark no i'm not at all not at all but please stop preaching beliefs and just check for yourself uh well i think you should probably study a bit more and find out what the actual science is we stood before again i will i'll be right back in a moment folks to let you know about upcoming debates and big plans that we have for modern day modern day debate we're excited for the future so stick around for that in about 20 seconds i'll be back ladies and gentlemen thrilled to have you here don't worry i'm still here here i am pumped to have you with us thanks for hanging out with us at modern day debate want to say my dear friends we're excited we've got big stuff coming up at modern day debate we want to say thanks for your support of modern day debate you guys have no idea for real we're excited about the growth that modern day debate has had it's it's it's super encouraging is we're excited to carry out the vision of providing a level playing field so that everybody can make their case on a neutral platform on youtube we want everybody to get their fair shot that's important to us and so thank you guys for joining us in that movement in that vision that we are pursuing as we strive to be youtube's premier debate channel so i've got to tell you thank you guys for your support it is exciting to see how much it's grown and it's because of you that it's grown no joke you guys help the channel in so many ways i'll give you some examples one is thank you guys i see we have 85 likes already that's spectacular it's a great start please do hit that like button as that does help the channel as we are excited to host more debates like this and that's one way of supporting the channel but also your questions for the q and a for real that helps as well if it was the q and a and it was just me asking questions very boring now no no good nobody wants that but you guys keep it interesting you guys submit fantastic questions thoughtful questions and obviously just a variety of questions which which makes the q and a fun not only that but i'm going to tell you another thing is even just by being here no joke just by being here that actually does help modern day debate because a lot of people not a lot i would say it's a small percent but we're still thankful for the small percent we have hate watchers every channel's got some there are some people that they just hate a channel i don't know why you'd hate a neutral platform but hey it's uh whatever the reasons are even the haters who watch just because they hate we are thankful for them the reason is because you might be like well why would you be thankful because you know if they're especially if they just talk smack in the chat and stuff and we're pretty easygoing chat we like our live chats and our comments to be pretty free we like people to feel like they can say what they want within reason so the reason we like it when hate watchers are here is because it gives youtube's algorithms information namely when those people are watching our debates youtube sees that and it says oh let's look for other accounts with similar interest to this account and this account any accounts that are watching and then they recommend it to those channels as well that's one way in which the youtube algorithm works as it looks for channels with you could say similar watch watch habits like watching habits in terms of their interests and then it recommends it's like a pretty quick you know pretty clever little trick in terms of recommending videos to people and so it really does help us no joke and so whenever i see a comment where somebody might just pop in and they're temporarily watching and they just do it because they just want to say you know this chattel sucks or whatever it is i'm just glad that they do pop in that's another thing is the comments that helps boost our engagement as well and so i gotta say we're excited you guys and again this the hate watchers the haters are really actually a small percent that's actually like a pretty small percent so we're thankful for all of you guys who are actually positive people who else do we have to think we've got a lot of people guest moderators like cas like amy like converse contender like carissa super thankful for them as i'm oftentimes swamped and especially these last several weeks as you guys know i've been streaming from the public library and i've been wiped out and they've been able to step in and take over so many debates and of course the people that we are most thankful for the people who are the lifeblood of the channel as i always say the speakers is that people like mark people like george howard stirrup people like alex stein and brenton that you can see in the bottom right of your screen they're the lifeblood of the channel they make it fun if it was just me debating myself every night it'd be a terrible channel so we are so thankful for all of our guests as it's always a blast because of them and so i want to say thank you guys for all of your support for real we are encouraged about the future and even when people oppose us we just see it as actually the wind to our back in other words it helps us because when people oppose us like i said there's a strange way in which reality works right now is i've seen this in a lot of cases in society is when people oppose you ironically a lot of times by opposing you they actually end up kind of helping you in a way and i'm not i'm not joking it sounds like kind of like i said bizarre but for haters we're we've got a positive attitude about them because like i said if they're tuning in and they're like i don't know a lot of they want to talk smack is just by clicking on the video it does give youtube more information where as i said it boosts us in the algorithm because it gives us you could say it recommends our videos to more channels based on more people clicking in in our content so we have a positive attitude even about the haters we've got a bright future want to let you know we are it's almost confirmed there is another political debate in addition to the one at the bottom right of your screen this one is for the following saturday and that is going to be on let me read this exact title the way it's quote the woke agenda in america so that's going to be hick of the hick report and jangles science lab that's a long way to debate i'm pumped to see those guys cross swords so that is going to be a cool one you do not want to miss it and that one i'm going to work on the thumbnail for that today as well as we've got a lot of good ones we've got some upcoming science you could say in particular creation versus evolution debates evolution on trial have dinosaurs ever lived with man in the past we are really excited to start moving back into science debates as we took a break from them for a while because we wanted to give them a break as we want want to kind of keep things fresh at the channel and so sometimes we kind of take a break from some topics and then come back to them maybe a month or several months later and so we haven't had a creation evolution debate for a while we're excited to get back into those to some degree and then we're going to do a lot more Islam versus atheism debates those have been well received a lot of people have enjoyed those recently and then we've also got some plans to have some very juicy political debates if you like juicy debates controversial debates the types where you're like i don't know if i should watch this at work that type of debate we are excited to host a lot more of those coming up in the future and stupid beta energy you'd never check your whatsapp you know that you know what your problem is but also i want to say thank you though in the the old live chat to others in the live chat good to see you gleam as well as calypso and comradical thanks for being with us and d ross pumped to have you here surgeon general glad you're with us and thanks for your message the other day letting us know about the stream sometimes the stream runs late even after we tried to turn it off as well as gander thanks for being with us glad you were here brooks sparrow thanks for your support brooks has hit that like button and i couldn't agree more it does help the channel so we do highly encourage you hit that like button as well as oliver cat while good to see you this high missed the debate but goods but sending good vibes thanks for that oliver cat well seriously and thanks for your message the other day i think it was just yesterday i really did appreciate that that meant a lot and thanks youtube for being good at being with us as well as mr lati glad you're here sady marie jones thanks for your support as always site show nav thanks for being with us i got your message the other day pardon my delay it's just been extra busy the last couple days i've been trying to recharge a lot a lot of meditation which has been super helpful for me lcx one glad you were here and fake globe glad to have you with us elabaca let me know if i'm saying your name right we're glad you're here your elabaca thanks for being with us as well as world of bliss glad you were here and dab and good glad to have you with us fenton moley good to have you here says james is getting yoked yo thanks for that i love going to the gym i am planning on getting yoked it is so fun i do enjoy it it's a great stress relief i can't wait to go to the gym today i do enjoy it a lot and then gander thanks for your support says i haven't seen any comments saying this channel sucks only one guest or the other you're right it is pretty rare to be honest like most people 99% are super supportive so don't get me wrong i'm just saying even when it comes to those who oppose us that small percent we're always keeping a positive attitude and thankful for them as well is that ironically if they oppose us we just benefit from it and we keep on growing and we're excited about the future but thanks for your support and i agree with you 99% of people are actually very positive and supportive and we appreciate that in fact we jumped up from 85 likes to 107 since i i asked you guys to hit that like button so thank you guys so much for doing that if you want to do a good deed for the day hit that old like button as that does help the channel we appreciate that and at r thanks for coming by we are glad you were here says i love the as of battalion haircut james i don't know what that is is that that battalion in the the ukrainian army that's like allegedly neo nazi uh in that case i don't know if it's a compliment i don't know what their haircuts are like but i think i remember that being the name of the battalion um which i'm like obviously not in i'm not an neo nazi but fallen marik thanks for being with us as well as let's see here d ross glad you're here charlie reed glad to have you with us and but yeah how are you guys doing in the live chat i've got a little bit i've got a school meeting in a little bit that i'm i'm glad to get to reconnect with everybody and so uh i've got to run in just a few minutes but i do want to say hi to you guys and get to hear from you and how's your how are your lives going and i hope you're doing well green dragon reprise glad you were with us as well as willy the kid we are glad you were here and then hl aristoceles thanks for being with us appreciate your support thanks frank for being here and well also rt good to see you again rufus saint hubbins glad you were with us ian's voice thanks for coming by as well as glober mom glad you're here lb things stuff and more happy to have you with us peter g glad you were here and youtube says isn't it early in the us putting a shift in yes it is it's early for me i got here at the library at like 8 30 this morning uh just because right now uh to accommodate the speakers we i had to come in early fallen merit glad you were here says are we are we welcome here as moon shaders yes you are and absolute death says jedi or sith thanks for being with us absolute death and of course jedi as well as ashley 19 student dot doctor thanks for coming by we're glad you are here lax paint thanks for being with us and self-law we are glad that you were with us rockin woodworks thanks for coming by we're glad to have you here southern sal thanks for being here wesley allen happy to have you elvin mod photo thanks for coming by as well as fate zero and my dear friends i am hoping that you're doing well i see you there in the old live chat thanks for your support sady marie jones and cori murphy glad to have you with us sady marie jones says please smash that like button i couldn't agree more rule it with an iron fist my dear friends jeremy corp rich thanks for coming by glad to have you with us let's see so i should now thanks for your support says keep the debates coming we definitely will we're excited about that we're doing that about two a week and well sometimes i think we have like have we done two this week i think we'll have like three this week because we just did one a couple of days ago we did one on wednesday we're doing one today friday and then we've got one tomorrow so three this week but we usually do two debates a week that's our typical and we will probably up it for sure especially in the fall in the summer at some point we might depending just on like scheduling and stuff like that we don't know it's there's a lot going on but we're you know consistently probably going to do about two a week and then we'll probably do more and like three or so as we kind of get we're looking especially like we're kind of out there looking for new guests and so surgeon general thinks let's see thanks for uh your support appreciate that and then let's see hl iristaciles thanks for your support we really do appreciate your channel membership support thank you for all of the channel members like stupid beta energy appreciate your support and lax paint thanks for your support thanks to all of the moderators and chat keeping things relatively calm you could say controlled chaos out there that's how we like it and so we we appreciate you guys so much we're at 109 likes who's going to be the one the last person to get us to 110 as we are so close we're only one like away from 110 that's a power number but want to say thank you guys seriously for your support it's always a fun time and i'm going to get ready for that next meeting and i so i've got to run but i do i do enjoy spending time with you so thank you guys we're excited about the future we've got big stuff coming up this summer in terms of debates that we're going to be hosting some of which are probably going to be in person and they're going to be like high level debates in person so we're really pumped for that we've got some big stuff coming we're excited about the future we're working on things that we can improve on as we as the channel recognize our things that we can work on and kind of go through self-improvement and see real progress so we're excited about that and we're excited as folks we want to provide a truly neutral platform as we really don't think a lot of the mainstream media out there is doing a very good job of giving people a truly neutral no spin type of platform the way we do or we want people to be able to say what they want and it's not edited it's not overly produced it's authentic it's raw it's real and so we appreciate all of you guys the support of that and we're excited about the future as we strive to complete and fulfill the vision of providing a neutral platform so that everybody can make their case on a level playing field so thank you guys we appreciate it we're excited about the future and we'll see you next time we hope you have a great rest of your day and looking forward to seeing you at tomorrow's debate take care everybody love you guys and keep sifting out the reasonable from the unreasonable amazing