 Welcome. Today with me I have Mr. Brian McLean. He is retiring at the end of December. He is the subject matter expert on command relationships for the Department of Air Force. I as one of my pending roles has been tasked with learning and taking over this role from Mr. Bingo. Morning Chris. Thank you. Glad to be here and this is kind of kind of a difficult spot for me having to do in this for quite a while it's time to pass on to the next so if we can do that today let's have fun with it. So as we've already talked I've brought up a I got a whole list of questions here we're gonna you know pick your brain at on command relationships, ComI4, JFAC roles, Air Component Commander, just to get an understanding not only for my learning but for the viewers learning out there too that may be watching these videos. So to get right into it you know my first question for you today is what are some of the more common misconceptions that you get asked on a day-to-day basis as it relates to command relationships? Okay well Chris the I think we've been fortunate over the last 20 years that the knowledge level in the Air Force has increased greatly so when I started doing this basic questions would have been more frequent not even understanding it. Now I think most of our airmen understand command relationships whether or not they realize it so what I find myself dealing with most frequently now is a lack of precision in terminology for instance and I know you have a couple more questions we'll go into more detail in this but sometimes you'll hear one saying I'm gonna chop take on of this force over to the Army Battalion Commander and when I hear that I cringe because the terminology is wrong and the unfortunate thing about that is words have meaning and when you're dealing with command relationships you're putting people in harm's way words have very important meaning so we strive to get them correct thank you so moving along to the next question can you talk to us about a sign versus attached and what's the difference in these this terminology yeah sure glad to in fact that that's one of the common language precision things when we talk assigned in forces and an Air Force terminology it has a specific meaning it means that a force and we're all forces you're a force I'm a force the aircraft out on the ramp are forces the squadron they've left or these are all forces writ large when you're providing forces to a joint force commander for employment if they are permanently given to that combatant commander the term used is assigned that means they're permanently placed under that combatant commander's orders and the mechanism for doing this is called the Secretary of Defense's forces for operational combat commands memorandum which is a mouthful so we usually just call it the forces for memo that's how they're assigned and take sec deaf action to do that although the Secretary of the Air Force is the one that actually chooses them it's a secretary of defense that approves that choice but if you want to go through that problem and that process to move a force from say you have them assigned to Indo pack mm-hmm but they're needed for operations in sent com you need to move them you temporarily attach them an attachment is I am removing that force that squadron that wing that airmen from the command to whom it is assigned and I'm temporarily placing it under another command via attachment okay all right thank you can you talk to us about I hear a lot about supported support team can you talk to us about you know what the difference and that is sure sure support is a specific command relationship and as you'll encounter as you take over and giving these briefings to other services in joint terminology support is a command relationship you talk on the army they view support as a mission so there's a little bit of disconnect in the language but we'll use the joint language let's say I am now supporting you that's a method of expressing a priority you have the priority of what's to be accomplished I am the supporting commander what I own what I can bring to the fight I use to make sure your objectives get carried out because you're the supporting commander now you don't get to command my forces you don't have a command relationship over my squadron of a 10s that's providing close air support to you but you can tell me I need this done I need close air support and then with my command as a supporting commander I'll give orders to my forces to carry that out that's supported in supporting okay well who sets that up who's our common boss sometimes I like to relate this to get it Christmas you have a supported grandchild and I'm the supporting grandfather and the kid wants everything I can't give them everything I don't have it so I have to get priorities well who set up that relationship and who makes the priorities grandma she's the common superior over both of us so you have supported gets the priority of the effort to be done supporting meets that priority with command of their own forces common superior establishes that supported supporting relationship and lays out who has priority for that way okay thank you can you talk to us talk to us about op-con versus take on versus support and really what's the difference yeah sure thing command relationships when you place forces under a commander particularly if you're going to go in harm's way that commander needs lawful authority to put those forces in harm's way and these types of authorities are included in operational control and tactical control or support now are we already talked about support okay if I'm the supporting commander I keep op-con and take on over my forces you as the supporting commander tell me tell me what you need done and I keep op-con take on well what's op-con what's taken operation control is all the authority I need a commander to do the mission I am given I can organize the force I can task the force I can train it to accomplish a mission I can direct it how it's going to accomplish that mission and if there is a requirement for a waiver to existing standards let's say a crew duty date to get the mission done I've got to go 15 hours into a 12-hour crew duty day if I have operational control I can extend the crew duty date to get the mission done that's op-con okay you ask me also though about take on tactical control is specific as to target timing location detail it's more granular than op-con so when I go from the broad op-con of I have to establish air superiority and I'm going to employ these forces to do it into the more granular tactical control I'm going to establish air superiority by attacking this enemy airfield with these weapons at this time that's an expression of tactical control tactical control is normally within operational control so you just go more granular okay as a follow-up question to this this conversation about op-con take on support how does administrative control play into this okay that actually going back to your first question some of the misconceptions that's one of the big ones within American forces US chain of command we have two branches operational control which we've just been talking about that's the put forces in a harm's way that's how you go do a mission and that goes to a joint force commander to a combatant command but at the same time you're going to do a mission if you're going to drop a bomb if you're going to shoot bullets somebody's got to load that bomb somebody's got to buy those bullets those actions referred to as organized train and equip those actions are accomplished through administrative control and that is a service function doesn't go through the combatant commander it goes through the secretary of the Air Force to the chief of staff of the Air Force and then down through Majcom's NAS groups and squatters you can't do one without the other they're linked but operational belongs to the joint force administrative belongs to the service they mesh together to get the job done okay thank you we you mentioned it a little bit before we you talked about the forces for memorandum but to ask the question differently you know how are forces provided can you walk us through the process of the sex deaths forces for memorandum and how thirsty and how combatant commanders get forces and the level of command over those forces well I can try it it all begins with us code title 10 which requires the president to establish combatant commands and provide forces to those combatant commands this is this is long-winded so if you need a cup of coffee I'll be a time to get right but from that is established a combatant commander well we all know sent com indo pack you calm these are combatant men present the establishment and directs the secretary of defense to provide forces to them and that's called the forces for memorandum the forces for is published by annually and it lists all of the wings groups squadrons battalions aircraft carriers by type that are assigned remember we talked assigned and attached assigned permanently to that combatant commander the secretary selects them the secretary defense approves them they're published in the forces for let's say one of those needs to go somewhere else to do something so you need to lack of a better term let's say we need to borrow an aircraft carrier from indo pack to go do operations in Africa that gets to attachment and because we're going across combatant command lines that requires the secretary defense approval so the combatant commander that needs the force submits a request for forces an RFF it goes up the process to the joint staff is handed down to the combatant commander or the service that's going to provide that force and then through secretary defense orders that selected force is temporarily removed from the command to whom it's assigned and attached to the gaining combatant command so that's the RFF process that's for a contingency a similar process is done for rotational forces let's say you're going to send forces forward to be a physical presence for the next year and it's a regular rotation same system same process except instead of a one-off RFF it's done through what's called the global force management allocation process again the secretary defense signs off on it the selected battalion selected aircraft squadron moves from its permanent location to its deployed location and they change the command relationship to the gaining combatant commander okay thank you let's let's move along away from some terminology stuff and and let's get into some more specific stuff I hear a lot of questions revolving around a confusion between combat four versus JFAC roles can you tell us kind of the difference between the two well for the most part as far as the air force is concerned they're the same that's but getting back to precision of language commander of air force forces get joint forces they're made up of service components you know forces four attached that's a service the service is what brings the forces to the to the joint force commander and you always have a service component commander because when they bring them in they come in is what's referred to in doctrine as a service component it's commanded by the senior air force officer eligible for command and an air force doctrine air force terminology and joint terminology that senior officer in command of air force forces is called commander of air force forces the comm f4 now in that role the comm f4 has administrative authority adcon over the service forces because somebody's got to make sure that you're organized trained to quit you want somebody to pay your paycheck right you want somebody to make sure there's communication between you and your home station that's adcon that's done by the service and the comm f4 and the joint force is responsible for that but we don't usually fight anymore as a service we fight as what's called a functional component commander and in air it's jfac joint force air component commander and the jfac takes all of the joint forces that air forces air force air naval aviation marine aviation possibly army aviation in some rare cases special operations aviation all of these air forces that all fight through the air the jfac is given control over them to best organize and employ what is in reality a limited density low low quantity but it's high demand but you got the comm f4 you have to have with administrative control over air force forces then the joint force commander establishes the jfac again that's another one of these common misconceptions the air force doesn't provide a jfac we provide a comm f4 that is prepared to be the jfac correct if the joint force commander so names uh i told you at the start of this air force thinks of the same thing that's not braggadocio that is historic experience for more than 20 years the joint force commander has always designated the comm f4 as the jfac and to avoid saying comm f4 slash jfac every time we talk air force doctrine we refer to the air component commander which is the dual-headed comm f4 jfac with responsibilities uh in both branches okay thank you as a follow-up question to that and this just occurred to me um if the air component commander is assigned forces from another force what level of control do they have over those other service forces okay well you you just use the terminology wrong okay yeah gotcha chris all right i guess i can't leave yet you know no no young padawan let me back up to what it says the the air component commander is not going to be assigned forces okay he's going to be provided forces so referring to the air component commander we were talking about the combined comm f4 jfac and so what authority would the air component commander have over navy forces if the air component commander is an air force officer that was correct that is that authority is take on which we discussed a little earlier detail as to i need this aircraft to hit this target at this time i need this pallet load of equipment delivered to this location no later than this time that's an expression of take on and it's frequently you know the air tasking order the atl was an expression of take on so what can i do with take on i can tell you what to do i can tell you when to do it i can tell you how to get to where you're going take on what can i not do i can't reorganize you i can't tell you how to shape your service force to get the job done if your service force is provided to do a specific type of function with just take on i can't order it to do a different function for instance i could if if i have a take on over an air force a 10 unit i can order it to do cast but i can't order it to do air superiority because that's not what it's trained for if i have just taken okay and i mentioned about organizing op con includes the authority to organize every service every one of us zealously guards op con because if you're going to reorganize a service force you need expertise on how to do that if you're going to take it apart you need to know what it affects and how to put it back together so the service chain under operational control zealously guards op con and let me give you one example from years and years ago when it started doing this i'd frequently have one of my navy compatriots when we're having this type of discussion and say no no the j-fact should have op con okay j-fact has op con yeah yeah okay op con includes the authority to reorganize yeah yeah i'm an air force officer and i'm a j-fact yeah yeah i have op con over navy air uh yeah i can reorganize uh maybe okay take your air wing off the carrier put it ashore i'm reorganizing okay that's good enough you can you can just have take on you'll be okay all right you bring up some good points there uh so moving along uh what are some of the most challenging uh commands to be in and why as they relate to the air component commander well i can only refer to what i've seen and over the last 20 years the one command that stands out to me for the most challenge probably right now is Alaska command because of the multitude of combatant commanders and service commanders that are all involved in alaskan command and 11th air force you've got alaskan command which is a subordinate unified command it's a subdivision of the larger combatant command that's a subordinate unified command under northern command but the forces that would be used by alaskan command and the commander of alaskan command is the commander of 11th air force up in alaska joint base elmendorf richardson 11th air force is under pakath as part of endo pacific command at the same time when you come back over to alaskan command alaskan command also forms the core of the alaska norad region which is us canada so you've got one commander of alaskan command of 11th air force of alaska norad region under pakath endo pac north com and norad all once oh and by the way he doesn't have any air force forces to do it so i would say he has the most challenging position presently to be an air component commander he doesn't have forces permanently assigned but they're available to be attached so when he needs to do when the commander of alaska and 11th air force norad needs to do something have to make sure they get them the right forces and go through that process to attach them under his operation control to put them in harm's way great um so that kind of leads me into my next question so uh endo pacom has forces in alaska um can you describe how uh command and control works for when air force forces are transitioning from one aor to another or from one geographic location to another so you know does uh alaska alaska command have control over endo pac endo pacom forces since they're in alaska command uh the short answer to that is no or not necessarily you we got to unpack a really complex question you asked right there baseline physical location is not generally the determinant for the commander relationship it's to which commander that force is assigned to attack so if you're asking about transit forces let's say that i have forces that i am moving from their location in seymour johnson air force base i'm taking f-15 ease and i'm moving them forward to korea for an exercise and i'm transiting through alaska well when they get to korea they're probably going to be attached under the operational control of endo pac pac af and us forces korea they're probably attached on that but until they get there just because they're transiting through north com and alaskan command that doesn't change the command relationship command relationship as to whom they're assigned or to whom they're attached later their physical presence as they go through doesn't change the command relationship that the answer is not quite as simple as that though yeah because even though you may not be under the opcon or the take on of the combatant commander within whose a or you're moving you still are subject to that commander's authority for items like force protection and exercise control okay so if you're transiting through alaska and you're going to spend the night and the local commander has some force protection measures enforced you're required to abide by those force protection measures even though it's not not under his command but you're subject to it because you're physically present there and throw one more curve in there to you this this is one that's a little known but very important and that is the authority of a combatant commander to take not be given by the secretary defense but to take operational control of u.s forces physically present within the a or under emergency conditions that was going to be my follow-up question oh great segue and emergency type situation okay there are some other forces that are in your a or that aren't assigned or attached to you okay what happens what happens uh now i i'll preface this with commander northern command does not have this authority within the united states that's the authority i'm described to take operational control northern command doesn't do it within the united states and it gets to um civilian control of the military well let's say you have an emergency kicking off in european command and you have a force physically present in european command but it's not yet attached to european command well the commander of european command the combatant commander this is the only one that has that authority the combatant commander of european command has the authority to reach out and say i need this force because of this emergency combat commander has to declare the emergency has to state to the losing command and the secretary defense why he's taking the force and how long he needs it but he can physically take it if that force is physically present within his a or he can take operational control so full mission control and this happened once uh several years ago during operation desert storm you know not oh i f not oh yeah but before that desert storm when israel became threatened by missile attacks possibly missile attacks and they needed to move air defense assets into that area commander of european command took control of an airlifter that was physically present in the a or ordered it to change its mission upload the necessary air defense forces and fly it so that's an example of a commander taking control in an emergency and by the way that does not violate the general rule that moving forces from one combatant command to another requires secretary defense approval it doesn't violate it because the secretary defense has already granted that approval to the combatant commanders this may seem like a dumb follow-up question to that but if a command commander takes control of another forces in an emergency situation since they're already there uh what happened who organized trains and equips that unit who who keeps that responsibility the taking i got to tell you chris that that question has never been asked you're the first person that's asked that question in 20 years so let me let me think for a second on that but the presumption would be that now that force be it air force army navy marine whatever force it is it's still part of a service and in taking operational control of it the combatant commander is in essence making it now part of his or her assigned service component so if it's an air force force that's not assigned to using ucomm as an example it's air force force not assigned to ucomm and combatant commander takes it for emergency conditions that automatically makes it part of you safes chain of command so the combatant commander ucomm is going to most likely 999 times out of 1000 is going to delegate opcon over that force the commander you safety as the air component commander and the commander you safety picks up some elements of administrative control responsibility and authority at least enough to make sure that that air force asset is properly employed taken care of you've got your air crews bedded down and protected and you got fuel for the jet okay okay all right i've got one last question for you i'm going to throw you up a little softball here and this is this will conclude our conversation but is the sector responsible for organizing training equipped of service retain forces short answers yes but you know me chris you can't get a short answer out of me okay so yeah the sec def ultimately is responsible for organizing training equipping all forces because he's immediately below the president but that chain then goes down to the service secretary so really from the sec def the secretary of the air force has the responsibility and the authority to organize train and equip all air force forces and that includes what are described as air force service retained forces and you didn't ask me this but i'm not a problem as you ask me a question so you got to listen to my answer service retained forces are one of those that are fairly new in the lexicon and fairly new in force assignment previously when we used to have united states joint forces command joint forces command was generally the the overall joint force provider so if you had forces that weren't deployed and forward to new com indopak etc the bucket of available forces was all under joint forces command they were under combatant commander when they had to go forward the secretary of defense gave the orders relinquish operational control of this squadron deploy it forward to sent com accept operation control a few years ago joint forces command went away we still had these forces so those forces that used to be assigned joint forces command were now created under a term called service retained forces these are forces that are not assigned to a combatant commander but are available to be attached as required for contingency there you're you're ready pool to call on uh within the air force air combat command is not assigned to a combatant commander it is a service retained force and all of air combat commands assets are available to be deployed as necessary under sect f orders to go forward to one of the combatant commanders are um reserve forces setup in this capacity yeah they are air force reserve command is a unassigned air force force but again it's not quite as simple as that because individual reserve forces squadrons wings etc individual reserve forces are listed in the forces for as being assigned to specific combatant commanders so there's a mix there air force reserve command itself is not assigned but for instance the uh airlift wing we have here at maxwell if you go through the forces for tabular data you will find that it is assigned to a combatant commander for when it comes up into um active status okay all right well that's all the questions I have for you today I didn't hear in our normal conversations that me and you normally have the words it depends too much as those are the one thing I've learned in conversations with you every answer has it depends on it mostly so hopefully in the future maybe even after retirement we can get you back and ask you some more questions and maybe we can hear some of those it depends I'll be glad to but I'd like to thank you for your time and thanks for thanks for answering these questions for me and everyone else my pleasure Chris thanks do well thank you