 Good afternoon everybody, it's my pleasure to welcome you this afternoon. My name is Mari Cross and I chair the Future Proofing Europe series, which is a series that we have supported by the Department of Foreign Affairs and very much dedicated as you can see from the title Future Proofing Europe. And as I say, you're welcome today as is the audience on Zoom to our enlargement and reform, why it matters and how it can be done. And we're delighted to be joined today by Dr. Anna Luermann, who is the Minister of State for Europe and Climate of Germany, and who has been generous enough to take time out of her schedule to speak to us today. So Dr. Luermann will address us for approximately 20 minutes, followed by a question and answer session, and your participation is very much encouraged and also to the audience on Zoom. You'll be able to join the discussion using the Q&A function on Zoom, which you should see on your screen. And please feel free to send your questions in throughout the session as they occur to you, and we will come to them once Dr. Luermann has finished her presentation. And a reminder that today's presentation and both the Q&A are on the record. Please feel free to join the discussion on Twitter using the handle at IIEA, and we're also live streaming this morning's discussion via YouTube. So the European Union, as we're all very much aware, is currently debating two inextricably connected issues of EU enlargement and reform. And these discussions are taking place against the background of challenging geopolitical situation with wars in Central Europe and in the Middle East. And in her address to the IIEA as part of the YouTube Purfing Europe project, Dr. Luermann will present views, German perspective on these questions and the challenges facing Europe in this moment of what is definitely global turmoil. Some, it's a pleasure now to present Dr. Luermann. The minister is a German political scientist and a member of Alliance 90, the Greens. And she has been serving in the Bundestag since 2021, German federal election. And she holds, as we have said, the position of minister of state in the federal foreign office in the cabinet of Chancellor Schultz. And it's of interest to note it's your second time that Dr. Luermann has been in the Bundestag, and I think worth mentioning that she made history in 2002 as the youngest ever member of the Bundestag. After she left then to pursue academic career. And she holds a number of degrees. She has a PhD from Humboldt University, and also a BA from the University of Hagen. A master's degree in gender and peace studies from University for Women in Sudan, which is of particular interest and an MA in research, training and social sciences also from Humboldt University in Berlin. And from 2018 to 2021, she served as an assistant professor in the Department of Political Science at the University of Gothenburg, and as the deputy director of the Varieties of Democracy Institute from 2018 to 2020. I think as is clear from Dr. Luermann's academic career that her research interests include very much democratic resilience, elections, regime legitimacy and democracy, which is very relevant to our discussion today. So minister, the floor is yours and we look forward very much to hearing your presentation. Yes. Ladies and gentlemen, dear guests, dear friends, I'm very, very happy to be here today. It's really a pleasure to be received here to discuss with you. And these are really issues that you outlined that are on top of our agenda and on top of my minds. And I would like to start by sharing some insights from my trip to Kiev a year ago. That was almost exactly a year ago together with actually female colleagues in the General Affairs Council, so other female EU ministers. And we went to Kiev, and of course, there was a bomb attack from Russia, and we did what Ukrainians have become accustomed to do now. We went to a bomb shelter, and to the parliament, and of course for us it was, okay, we're going to sit there now and in silence and wait. And the Ukrainians were like, no, no, no, we will continue work. We need to talk to you about the changes to our media law. We need to talk to you about how we will appoint our judges, how we will make other rule of law reforms. And at first I was a bit puzzled because I thought, okay, how can we do that while our sort of the life of other Ukrainians is at risk above us here. But then I really, in this discussions, I really realized that what this whole discussion about the EU enlargement actually means for Ukrainians. It is more than some bureaucratic checking the boxes or something like that. It is really this symbol for the hope of a life in peace, of a life in freedom, of a life in dignity, as members of the European Union. Sort of to have that what we often take here for granted in Ireland or in Germany, and what they are currently fighting for what they're risking their lives for. And this is really this EU accession process is really the symbol of this promise. And I think it's really our duty here sitting in our warm and cozy homes in Ireland or Germany to make sure that we keep this promise and that we work together on ways how Ukraine can actually achieve this. And it's really something that we do because we want to support Ukrainians as our friends, but also because we know it strengthens our own stability and security. And if we make sure that our immediate neighborhoods, Ukraine, Moldova, Georgia, also countries of the Western Balkans are safe and secure within the EU instead of unstable outside under the influence of countries that don't have the best intentions for us in our future. And therefore I really believe that this EU enlargement is a key issue that we need to work on. It will expand our area of freedom, security and also justice. And it's clear that for that the Canada countries need to do a lot of reforms. Of course, as I told you now the Ukrainians are really working very hard on it. Also, in Moldova they made good progress. That's also why we're going to start the accession and negotiations now very soon. Also, Georgia has candidate status. When we turn our attention towards the countries of the Western Balkans, then we see a bit of mixed back. You know, these countries have been on their way to the EU for more than 20 years now. They had this promise in Tessaloniki back at a conference. And they haven't really made it yet into the EU, as we all know. And that is partially because there were stumbling blocks from the side of the EU over again and again. But also because, at least in some of the countries of the Western Balkans, the reform process that's for diplomatically isn't on the highest priority list of the leading politicians in those countries. And of course, the most important country here, Serbia, gave a very bad example of that now just before Christmas when elections took place in a way that the international observers have raised a lot of doubts about the credibility of the electoral results. And I really think that that's unacceptable at a country that wants to become an EU member, holds an election in a way that actually doesn't fulfill the standards for credible elections. Because that's the very basis of what we're doing here, the basis of democracy is free and fair elections. And if we can't be sure that the result actually reflects the will of the people because there were reports of being of people from other parts of the country to the capital, there were reports also very credible reports and we know it actually has a fact that opposition politicians have much less access to the media for instance than government politicians and all that. And that's really something that during this enlargement process needs to change. And that also shows, again, the whole power of this enlargement process. I mean, we support those that want to move closer to our values to our standards. So at the same time we also give incentives to those that might need a little incentive here and make it clear that if you want to achieve the benefits of the single market for instance, of traveling freely in Europe and these kind of things, then you really need to make sure that you also make progress on these reforms. So, my first big point is yes to enlargement and yes to enlargement because it is also in our own security and stability interest. The second point is that we also need to be aware that if we enlarge our EU, a larger EU, doesn't automatically mean that it's also a stronger EU, right? That's the goal we want to achieve. We want to strengthen our union with the enlargement, but there's no automaticism. We also need to do our homework as EU if we want to achieve this. You know, already now and I know there are some people who have a lot of experience also in the EU institutions here in this room. Already now the process in process often are too slow, it's sluggish, there's room for improvement already now, but I think if we have some process now that looks like a detour when we're 27 members, this might actually turn out to be a dead end when we're more than 27 members, right? And if you want to prepare to go to sail on the high seas, then you better have a boat that doesn't already look a bit shaky when it's somewhere on a lake or a little river inland, right? So we really want to make sure that our institutions, our processes, our structures are ready for enlargement, are ready for 30 or 35 members. And we need to start this discussion now so that we can say we are ready once the candidate countries are ready with their reforms. And that of course means that we need to think about the size of the European Parliament with new members. I mean, it's one of the most obvious things to talk about the size and the functioning of the commission. Do we really want to have 35 commissioners sitting around the table? Is that an efficient way of governing Europe? Not really sure. Can we find some other solutions here? We also need to think about these vetoes because we often see now, and I think we've had a very stark example of that before Christmas, that individual countries use this right to actually block the whole of the EU moving forward. And maybe for reasons that are not even related to the issue that actually is being voted on, right? So I think we really need to think about how we can ensure that every country is seen, that every national interest is seen, but in a way that doesn't allow for these blockades that slow us down overall. So we need to talk about vetoes and about increasing the use of qualified majority voting. And therefore we're working very actively on that already in some areas of the foreign policy topics. We also want to work on this in the fiscal area and also think about other issues where we can reduce the veto. And particularly when we think about, we just had a very lively discussion also on all the global challenges that faces the EU. If we really want to be seen as a confident, as an actor that has an impact actually in this, we need to speak with one voice and we need to work closer together. And therefore, together my French colleague, we've asked a group of experts to already make some suggestions on this. They've presented quite an interesting report sailing on high seas back in fall. And now we really need to discuss this in all EU member states and think about what kind of EU reform we need. I'm also looking forward to listening to your suggestions later in the Q&A and your points here where you think EU reform is really needed. And the European Council has already decided in December that now these processes, the enlargement and the reform need to go in parallel, so move at the same time. And that the Belgian presidency has asked to present us with a roadmap with some idea of how this discussion can continue now in June already. So this is really a debate that is happening. And here, and that maybe already brings me to my third point, that is enlargement, reform and all on the basis of our common values. I mean, that's what brings us together. We are a union of common values. And here in particularly also the rule of law, which we need to defend against attacks from outside, like Russia for instance, but also from attacks from inside. And therefore, we really cannot accept if EU members repeatedly attack freedom of press or controlling of the judiciary. We really have to use the instruments against these kind of attacks, protect ourselves against this because only if we stand on the same foundation, on the same values, then we can actually also act strong together. And therefore, we should use these instruments that we have. I know a lot of you are experts and we've heard about the article seven procedures. So it's a procedure where we can, at EU level, when we're concerned with the development of the rule of law values in general in EU country, we can address this in the council. And we have done that now for two countries for Poland and Hungary too late, I would say, so already when processes went in the wrong direction for quite some time. And here these instruments, and we can also withhold parts of the budget for these countries because we're actually afraid that because of the declines in the rule of law, we actually cannot be sure that the funds of the EU are used in the way that they're supposed to be used. And it's our taxpayers, your money, right, that is being used. So therefore we really need to make sure that it's spent in an appropriate manner. So these instruments, I think we need to really apply them more coherently and also think about how we can strengthen them because we cannot afford also in an enlarged EU to have more members. And then, you know, just adding more members increases also the risk of these kinds of deterioration. So we also need to think about how we can improve them, maybe use them more earlier, maybe also reduce the thresholds that are needed to apply them so that we really protect the rule of law and the values on the basis that we stand on. And to conclude, I think I want to actually end with a positive example of where the EU member states have been working very well together, which is addressing the climate crisis. I think here we all agree that this is one of our core challenges at the moment. And now at the COP 28 in Dubai, we could really see how when the EU works together, you know, we're negotiating that together as EU, we can actually achieve something. So for the first time now, we have agreed as world based also on EU initiatives, EU leadership, EU negotiation skill that we want to transition away from fossil fuels globally. Also, the oil producing countries have agreed to that. And now, of course, the action needs to follow this. But yeah, I'm also confident based also on German Irish corporation on this field, you know, we had had the lead in a working group on so-called loss and damage on the way on the question of how we actually deal with the losses that already exist because of the climate crisis. We are working together so well that we actually managed to build confidence also of partners in other parts of the world so that in the end we could achieve this compromise. And now we have to work on the action here in this field, mainly on renewable energies. That's also what we decided in Dubai that we want to triple renewables until 2030, that we want to double energy efficiency. And here I think we really as Germany and Ireland we can work together to make this actually a reality on the European continent to work on green energy on green hydrogen together. This is really where also prosperity in the future lies and the way how we can make sure that we continue to live on a planet that actually has temperatures that we can thrive in. And thrive in as human race, right. So, these are some of the issues that are at stake now, when in six months, all five months even only European citizens go to the polls for the European Parliament elections. We will, for the first time in Germany, 16 to 18 year olds can go vote, so young people can participate in this election. Very happy about that. This has been something that I've been working on already back in the days when I was a young member of parliament, one of my most key agenda items that I've been pushing for and I had to wait for 20 years. Yeah, but it's at least being implemented so you have to have endurance in politics, but I'm confident if we work together as Germany and Ireland but also in the European Union we can achieve solutions to all these challenges. And we have done so in the past. And I think that's that's the way forward and therefore I'm happy to discuss with you these kind of issues now here and looking also forward to your suggestions and ideas. Thank you. Thank you very much minister for that overview. And we know the points you stressed, particularly your commitment to Ukraine and a very accelerated accession process for Ukraine, and also the fact that the, the situation, the war situation has not only brought Ukraine so much closer to the EU but has also given more momentum to the Balkan states which, as you mentioned their membership in that area has been languishing for for about 20 years. And the floor is now open for questions both from our in house audience, and but also our audience on zoom or questions can be taken. When you put the question I would be grateful if you could give your name and affiliation. So we have one first question over here, and the microphone is available. Thank you minister for your presentation. My name is Claudia but let's go I'm a postdoctoral researcher at the Institute for European Studies in Brussels. I was wondering, what are the prospects for Ukraine and Moldova to join the EU, like, do they have any credible or tangible prospects to join the EU, given that they have contested borders so Ukraine has an active conflict with Russia, and Ukraine has a frozen conflict with Russia through the separatist region of Transnistria. So what can the EU do really to integrate these countries given these contested borders, and is there any alternative to a new membership in the meantime. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, this microphone is working like this right. Yeah. So, yeah, thanks for this question, and it's an important one. And I also, when we think about Georgia, I mean, we often forget about about this book of frozen conflicts there and when I was in in Georgia recently, I also went to to the administrative boundary line with South Ossetia to take a look actually at what's happening there because, again, that's also one of the things you know sometimes we are like all the EU is the EU actually doing enough in, in terms of foreign policy and here we are using an instrument very effectively the EU monitors as police men and women from all over Europe that are active here at this administrative boundary line to actually make sure that that the other side doesn't doesn't cross cross over where they're not supposed to or not doesn't creep into into the wrong direction. And, and this works this also mediates the conflict there and make sure that it doesn't boil up so I just want to mention that here because it's often not known what actually we're doing and also effectively in terms of conflict prevention and mediation as an EU is this really quite an impressive instrument. But of course, when we talk about EU membership this is an issue that that also needs to be discussed. What I always say, both in Ukraine and in Georgia is to that really these countries should really focus on the reforms that they can address on that's a lot to do, particularly also in Georgia where the government hasn't been so active on the reform front as they could have been as you know probably. And then I'm sure we will find also a solution to to these issues. We have found the solution to this issue when it came to Cyprus, not that I'm advocating to just replicate that model. But really here my my answer to this is that a bit like we cross the bridge when we get there we we have a lot to work on until these countries can have the status of having the membership within reach. And then I'm confident we'll find some solution also for for this issue of contested boundaries. Thank you. Thank you for that. We have another question here Alan and then Alan Duke's former director of this Institute. Minister you spoken in the context of enlargement of the need to look at our institutions and processes and you mentioned specifically that the unanimity rule and the veto. We've seen how the use or misuse of that veto can actually obstruct other areas of policy. I mean in one specific case the application of article seven is being compromised severely by the use of the veto because practically in practical terms it applies to most of the major economic and foreign policy decisions. If we look at the political landscape in the current EU and perhaps in some of the members of the candidate states. My view is that we're seeing a move to the right. And it seems to me and I hope I'm wrong about this that the further the political center of gravity moves to the right the more problematic. The use of the veto will be so that we're actually running out of time to do something sensible about broadening the scope of Q and B. So far there has been a huge reluctance in most member states able to mention it. And I excuse your native country and France because they at least have said maybe we should think about this. The odd thing to my mind is that when people look at needles I observe in Ireland the people in Ireland who are most vocal in demanding a change in the unanimity rule in the UN Security Council are also the most vocal and saying we have to keep the unanimity rule in the EU. It seems to me to be an odd kind of position to take. But do you believe minister that there's any real chance that we will come to some sensible decision about expanding Q and B in time to prevent it being overtaken by this movement to the right in the political forces. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. I share your argument in that sense that indeed the problem is if the political landscape is becomes more polarized. And if you have more people be it or more parties be it on the on the extreme right or on the extreme left that can come to power. Then that makes the unanimity more and more problematic because it just means that that governments that might be so far away from the center of European politics can block then then everyone right. And I don't think it's necessarily just a characteristic of the far right could theoretically also be of the far left which we don't really have in power now at the moment but indeed that's that's a problem and that's exactly why we need to think about something that I like to call flexi so because you know before people like to talk about I don't know Europe of concentric circles I think also that you your question went a bit in that direction or whether we need a core Europe you know the famous Wolfgang Schäuble who yeah unfortunately just passed away he he was talking a lot about about this that we need a core Europe and then something around it. But I think that that doesn't actually address the challenge of today and the challenge of today is rather that after an election we could have and that could happen in France actually right. We could have extreme rights party in government that is then far away from the consensus of the rest of the EU and we need to find answers to that and I think one answer is the improvement of the rule of law instruments and here we can have improvements and we're working on that with the Belgium presidency as well we can have improvements that don't require treaty change because these are also relatively new instruments right they were just being used for the very first time over the last year so we can do a lot with developing new procedures and these kind of things. But in the end we also need some reform that might need then a change of rules and unanimity. So that's the absurd thing you need unanimity to change unanimity right yes. And I'm quite optimistic I mean you might have realized that I'm an optimist in general but also in this field I think I have reasons for that because more and more the point things in that we cannot afford to just enlarge the EU. Without getting ready for it and we will have I mean you know how the EU decision making is is often made we will have a point in time also where we will need to have that conversation of are we ready. And then there will be a discussion between those that really want the enlargement and tend not to be so keen on working on on on the issue of capacity to act and and those that rather prioritize this issue. So I think we need to we need to start this discussion by really thinking about OK what kind of EU do we want we want a stronger EU. I think in that we all agree with the EU 27 and when we want a stronger EU we need to be bigger and it needs to improve its capacity to act and we have now for the first time in the European Council in December we had the agreement that these discussions at least needs to take place in parallel. And there are also several ways of how we can protect legitimate national interests for instance. Without leaving those full scale veto rights without necessarily need to justification and these kind of things on the table there are also some discussions a lot of work for think tanks by the way to really think about these things through how we can introduce safeguards for instance now that we you know just from the top of my head one suggestion could be that we say OK in general we move to qualify majority voting. But if a country manages to mobilize five other countries saying that oh here the national interest of one country is really really challenged and at stake then some sort of safeguard for instance the discussion in the European Council is required. So so I think we need to think a little bit creatively of how we can do this or maybe another idea is to have to have the veto only veto rights only three times a year. For a country now that would sort of reduce the possibility. I'm just you know just thinking a lot I think we need to we're in a state is faced at the moment where we need to untapped some creativity around this because it is also a legitimate grievance that I hear often particularly in smaller or medium sized member states that this is something very dear and the safeguard that that countries don't want to to give up. So when you think about how can we preserve the safeguard mechanism without but reduce its destructive potential. I'm quite sure it can be done. And thank you minister. I know we have one other question but in relation to that I just wanted to follow up Q and V as you mentioned makes smaller countries nervous. But in the report that you mentioned of the Franco German report with the 12 experts. They had some guardrails for Q and V such a sovereignty safety net. That's would be inspired by Article 31 rebalancing of voting shares is another possibility or an opt out for policy areas which are going to Q and V. So there are proposals around already significantly in those reports. But just on that I know that you you had mentioned you were interested in getting some structural changes even before the European parliamentary elections that would perhaps lock in changes that that Alan mentioned in case there was a tilt of the parliament. Do you feel that's feasible to have some changes before the European parliamentary election some sort of movement towards recent structural changes. Well, I think the moment for that would have been now last December. So like the European Council a few weeks ago. But unfortunately in the lead up to that there was so many other issues piling up that it wasn't possible and the thing that was possible that was to agree that this discussion needs to take place and that it needs to be a key issue for the next legislature of the European Parliament and the Commission. So I think that's where we stand. We're still thinking a bit about whether there are things that can be done without sort of any big big, big decisions or unanimous unanimous decisions, some reforms to make things faster for instance in the rule of law field. That's maybe something that could happen. But I think most of these discussions will have to take place after the elections with all the risk attached to it. And yeah, but also one reason for my optimism is that we have this group of friends actually of qualified majority voting in the foreign affairs field already. Where and this is really a group where we started out quite small with I think five countries and we are now I think 11 or 12 full members plus a range of observer and observers and also Island has joined this group as as an observer to work with us here particularly also on these issues like guardrails and safety nets and these kind of things. So that really is a reason for why I think this could be possible. Because we're I mean as always in politics we need to first have a have a topic on the center of the stage like today and and talk about it and develop some ideas and solutions and compromises and then we can also have the necessary votes. Thank you. So gentlemen John there had and then off the back. Thank you so much. My name is Barster practicing here in Dublin. And first of all, thank you Minister for your very interesting presentation coming to talk to us here today. And I was struck by your description of hiding is where in the bomb shelter in Kiev. And I wanted to myself how you or I or anyone was here would respond if we're sheltering from the far greater intensity of bombardment and Gaza being carried out by Israel with obviously international backing. And in that context as someone who has an MA in peace studies is very interested to hear. I'm just wondering if you have any view on the application now being brought by the Republic of South Africa to the International Court of Justice against Israel where obviously very serious charge of genocide has been made. And as a follow up to that, if interim measures are indeed ultimately permanent measures are directed by the court. Would it be your view that the European Union as a whole and the member states of the European Union including course Germany and Ireland should comply in full with any directions issued by the court. Yeah, thanks for that question and it's really the whole suffering in the in the Middle East is really. Yeah, on top of my mind as on on many minds in the last months and it was really, I mean this this this brutal attack by by Hamas on on on Israel in October it was really left many speechless. No, I mean they were really violence that targeted innocent civilians in a very dramatic way. And, and now when we look to Gaza and see the suffering there of of of innocent civilians that come in between the the the alliance between between Hamas and and and the Israeli Defense Forces. This is really a violence and suffering that needs to stop and that's that's very clear. I mean, as many conflicts, it's very complex because on the on the one hand, of course, Israel has the right to defend itself against these these brutal attacks that are still ongoing also I mean they are. Bombs still also targeting Israel also it's from from Gaza but also from who tease from partially also from the north and so so that needs to stop and also it's also clear that that the Israeli response to this violence needs to be in line with humanitarian law and needs to make sure that civilians are not targeted in that way and Alina Behrberg was just in the region again and emphasized again to to her interlocutors that there needs to be more humanitarian access and that he strikes against against Hamas need to be more targeted and and and civilian lives need to be spared. We also advocated for humanitarian pauses. So there is indeed a need to to also say this and and to to to be clear that the Israeli response must be proportionate but from our perspective it's very clear that this doesn't amount to to genocide and therefore we are not of course not not not supporting the the the case made by by South Africa now and what is critical now is that the human suffering stops and that we come back to attract towards the political solution which can only evolve around the two state solutions solution and which we're actively working on trying to get the sides to to get to a stage where where they can actually start talking about these things. Thank you minister. The I have two more questions but just one from the zoom retired Brigadier General Jarraharn mentions the recent questionable general election in Serbia and his question is does any formal process exist for the EU to temporarily suspend candidate status for countries that blatantly infringe the democratic process in their elections. I mean does it exist. Is it is it desirable. Is it how does one deal with with the situation which is the reason and well. Well first of all sort of the let me start with the general so in general yes the new EU accession methodology follows two clear principles one is more for more so countries that fulfill steps on the way to the EU should get more benefits from the EU if they once they proceed. And at the same time also less for less. So talks on chapters can be frozen stopped benefits such as funds can be with with with holding. And and that therefore the methodology exists also just think about the frozen negotiations with Turkey. I was clear that this wasn't going anywhere so it's basically frozen at the moment when it comes to to Serbia now what we're doing at the moment is I mean we have we have made some some very clear statements also. And now we're waiting for the final report from the Action Observers with sort of all the evidence collected which is expected in the coming weeks and then I think indeed we need to discuss at the level what consequence that has for also the accession negotiation process. And I don't think we can go back to business as usual. Thank you. The gentleman at the back had a question. Thank you very much for your really interesting presentation. Andy McGuire from TU Dublin. For people who are here. That's Kevin Street and Baldwin Street and what have you. And I find people in this room and think and why we're here where we're thinking global and we want to act global and it's wonderful. Fantastic. And we're all very much a part of it. And then you mentioned sustainability and that kind of boils down to you know thinking global and acting local. And then you were talking about I think Alan Dukes mentioned it as well. There is the internal stability of the EU with the existing systems and you know we can take them for granted as you know. And we talk about the right wing and how it's developing and comfortable with that. In Ireland we have a political movement that seems to be gaining a strength that's not as right way and likely to get into power next time round. And what I think that right wing crowd have in common with with this new movement in Ireland is that they think local and act local. The EU I feel strongly and I'm so pro European Union. You have no idea it's been so good to me and to this country and what can we do to try and get the EU and its values and its perspectives to act and think more locally. For example in Ireland I think we've done something called the Citizens' Assembly, which I think has enhanced our political debate so much because it's taken off the agenda to stuff on the side. And are there things in Germany that you're doing to enhance democracy beyond elections or what do you think of the Irish Citizens' Assembly and can that be replicated. Can I have thoughts on that about strengthening values within the Union. Thanks. Excellent question. I write on point. First, yes, we're very inspired by the Irish Citizens' Assemblies. In fact, we're so inspired that we've been copying them in Germany. So we've already had I think now three attached to the National Parliament. They have not gained such a prominence in the public discussion, unfortunately, in Germany as they have in Ireland, even though in terms of methods they were quite very similar. But somehow they haven't fully sort of had that impact that I think probably most citizens in Germany don't know that we have Citizens' Assemblies now. So we really need to think a bit about how we can improve that, maybe really find some very, very controversial topic that then everyone really also reports about these Citizens' Assemblies. Maybe that's one thing. They have also been used at the EU level, you know, in connection with the Conference on the Future of Europe. But I think there, unfortunately, the Irish example wasn't followed so closely. So there were Citizens' Assemblies. But on a very, very broad topic, namely the Future of Europe, and with a very unclear link of those Citizens' Assemblies to then what came out of this conference. So I think methodologically that here in Ireland, yeah, it's done better with a very focused topic, with a lot of expert input, and with a clear link then of the Citizens' Assemblies to what happens in Parliament and the political process afterwards. So that's clearly an inspiration from Ireland. And yeah, and I think in general, though, the Citizens' Assemblies are one step, but not enough to really bring the EU and also democratic institutions in general closer to citizens. One answer, of course, is also to strengthen the local level, to give more power to the local level, to let more issues decide there. That's one of the things that we've been advocating as a work for. And I think as EU, and particularly also now in the coming months, we just need to over and over and over again really talk a lot about what you said, what the EU has ever done actually for every citizen for everyday life and such. I think that must be the answer. Just try to put it louder. I think this has to be the last question. Thank you very much. I want to pick up your point, Minister, the law, the need for unanimity to change unanimity. In this context, we've had in Ireland since 1972, nine referenda on European issues, six treaties and the fiscal compact. And on the Neese Treaty and the Lisbon Treaty, we thought they were so good that we voted twice, which brings the number to nine. There is a risk in holding a referendum on very sovereignty sensitive questions, how do you protect your national interest and so on. And I'm interested to know when the Friends of QMV group that you mentioned, to what extent are you seeking to find your creative solutions within the boundaries of the existing treaties as a de-risking mechanism to deliver the outcomes that are desirable. Ah, thank you very much. I mean, this is really, you know, the absurd situation is that the existing treaty has the so-called Passarell Clause that you probably know, but for everyone else also. So it says in the existing EU treaties that in certain areas we can move to QMV without any treaty change, right? It was already in the treaty, it was foreseen that there might be a point in time, for instance, an enlargement or something else, where we need this flexibility. So also all countries already have agreed to this potential, back when they agreed to the treaty. Unfortunately, that is basically a pregnant, non-pregnant thing, right? Either you do it or you don't. So in order to get actually the majorities to do it, some creativity and something in between actually would be desirable, but there our lawyers are not very certain at the moment if any creativity wouldn't actually require a treaty change. So, and it's actually a bit of an absurd situation. So if you go all the way, you don't need treaty change and if you do something in between, you might need treaty change. So, yeah, but we're working on that. And that's exactly also one of the reasons why I'm so insistent and almost really, I think by now I annoy a lot of my colleagues in the General Affairs Council in Brussels because I keep on emphasizing this issue that we need to start the reform discussion now, so that we're really ready once the Canada countries are ready because all sorts of questions come along the way, right? These legal questions and indeed there are many ways of improving and changing things within the treaties. You know, as German government we are also open for treaty change and there might be some ways there, but apparently now in many countries there's not much appetite for treaty change. So we'll have to see there are also other options of including these kind of reforms into the enlargement treaties themselves. That's also something that's being discussed because they will have to be ratified anyway. So there are, yeah, all sorts of discussions that we're having at the moment and really a discussion that needs to be also held in all EU member states with creative solutions coming from all member states. So I really encourage you to think about these issues to come up with also your own suggestions and ideas and during the next legislature of the EU Parliament will be a time where they will be taken into consideration. So thanks so much. Minister, thank you very much indeed. I think we owe you a great debt for coming to share your views, the German government's views, but also to address an issue which I think we are all aware is at the very top of the EU agenda at the moment, the issue of enlargement. And also, for assisting us here to become more aware of the threat assessment of that is facing the EU in relation to European security. And I think this is something that we really have to work on enhancing public appreciation that the moves that are underway in Europe to promote enlargement affects us all in terms of European security. So we thank you most sincerely for that. And hope that we can continue discussions with between Germany and Ireland and as partners within the EU. And once again, many thanks. Just before we close our head of research Barry wanted to have a few words if you just for two minutes he says. Good afternoon everybody. I'm barry called for the direct research lovely to have everybody here. Just a couple of focal at the end just to echo Mary thanks obviously for Dr Lerman and team it's been great to have you here but also marry as well for your skillful chairing as ever. I also just in addition to the thanks for the Department of Foreign Affairs which Mari mentioned at the start. I also just want to stress our appreciation for the German Embassy here in Dublin, master cord and Christian Resch at the back of the room there as well. You're great supporters of the Institute and it's always great to work with you so thanks very much for your support. I just want to mention quickly the 2024 program is very much up and running and two dates for your diary which may be of interest on the 22nd of this month. We're delighted that we're going to welcome with Canadian colleagues, the Catherine Stewart who's Canada's climate change ambassador is going to be here alongside Dr Catherine Welsh from the Department of Foreign Affairs, talking about the outcomes from and then also want to look forward to on the 6th of February the EU sanctions envoy David O'Sullivan who was also late of this parish former director general is going to be talking to us about the EU sanctions on Russia. There's much more as well available on the website but there are two in person events that are coming up. I look forward to seeing some of you there. Thanks very much for being with us and have a good rest of your afternoon.