 Hello everyone and thank you for joining us for the Capital Insider series as we do today in the 20th edition of Capital Insider here at Entrepreneur India. We're actually going to pick up a very very interesting subject today and also we have with us Mr. Amit Patni who is going to lead us through this subject. So indeed, it's very little is known about it in the investment cycles but family offices are perhaps the most important part of the investment landscape, because sometimes they do not have invest directly as much as they invest indirectly into today's alternative investments and various investment special purpose vehicles that exist today for startups as well as for other businesses. You know, we, as I said, we're going to talk to Mr. Amit Patni today and who actually is who was the early mover in the family office space and back in 2002 he established the Ray investments, which was which is a single family office, and they've been working towards asset management and capital preservation for family businesses and helping actually family businesses to become business families so to say, in, in the course of things. So welcome Mr. Patni, it's wonderful to have you here today with us as we talk about the new investment landscape as well as help us understand that today there are so many family businesses that exist in India. And how could these family businesses transgress towards becoming good wealth preservers and they are able to not just run a family business but also be able to diversify their investments and so this is with this in mind. Let me ask you this that today many wealth management reports that I have been reading the show that direct investing by family offices outside the public markets is increasing year on year. So what are really these alternative investments other than public markets which are becoming very interesting from an investment point of view for a family office. So are you sort of gravitating towards early stage startups or are you sort of still family offices still like to be part of the private equity sort of investment space. And both in terms of risk and returns for managing investments directly or remotely as a family office what are what is your point of view. Yeah, thank you to do and it's great to have audience from all over listening to this thank you for giving me this opportunity to speak. So, you know, before we digress into to your question I'll just give a couple of minutes background of our family just you know for the context of people who may not know or you know what we do. So our family the patni family is is you know, old family from from the Rajasthan my grandfather was from the state of Rajasthan and we migrated to Agra and then set up business there and ultimately in the 1970s we came to Mumbai and established business and you know, all the family members settle in Mumbai. And it was in 1976 when my father, along with his two uncles one of the uncles was settled in Boston. You know, we got the idea to start putting computer systems. So it's almost 35 years back, where, you know, we, we felt that there we can you know train Indian engineers there's a lot of institutes like it's and other institutes where we can you know, I had in train engineers and there was a great need in in the US market for trained engineers. And that's how we we got into it and that's the genesis. And since the last 30 years we build patni computers into a large IT conglomerate where we had of course software development. We had a lot of IT solutions, we went to computer hardware and networking land and you know, the complete area of, of IT. And in 2001, we got general Atlantic partners who came in as a private equity investor, and invested a large sum of money. And then of course, the company became professionalized and it had had an independent board. We went for an IPO in 2004. And subsequently, you know, as any trajectory, you know, of this life cycle where you know, you start a family business you grow it you get private equity in. And then you go IPO and then of course there was a lot of discussion that do you do you exit or do you grow and finally the family along with the private equity partner. We exited the business, but the computer systems were sold in 2011 to I gate. And since then, of course, we had established our family office actually in 2002, much before these events happened. It was a help because we could, you know, take care of the wealth which suddenly got generated because of the liquidity. And so since 2011 we have a family office, which which has been taking care of the family wealth. And of course it is now in the number of members also have grown in the family in terms of, you know, young generation and including my children and my brother's children so it's become a large family office. And yes, so that's what we do. Coming to your specific question. We'll start off with the family offices investing in venture and in private equity. Now generally, what the so that two parts one is I personally after working with the family for many years. I mean, since I graduated, I decided that you know I will would not like to start operating business. And of course look after the family office and you know, invest into public markets and into other asset categories, but also actually launched my own venture fund. So in 2011 after we sort of exited and you know this liquidity event happened myself and my younger brother and he said let us you know, having learned so much in IT. And I felt there was a need to you know, encourage young professionals and young engineers who are coming out of college and you know, build the whole startups ecosystem. And this I'm talking about 10 years back when actually in India startup was yet in a nation stage and you know, so we sort of joined the Indian Angels Forum and the mobile angels. And we realized that there's a lot of startups which need help not only in finance and capital but also in mentoring them. We launched Nirvana venture advisors which are, which was our first venture capital fund in 2011, where we bought operating partner on board, and we anchored with you know giving the seed capital. And then we raised money from you know other other family offices and we went international. And of course now that fund is almost in terms fully deployed is 10 years, we invested around 1012 companies in that fund and it's, you know, doing fairly well. And then so that was a business we sort of sort of decided to get into by putting, you know, anchoring funds so we have two more funds, the high and I guess bring those I've been concentrating on big data and SAS again technology basically. Sure. So, this is what we have because we allocated certain amount which we said we will go to you know these funds and, and you know, which will then help startups come and you know have the funding as well mentor them. Now in generally as a family office, the trend has been you know that we first do a asset allocation where we decide as a family office and that is the trend which is followed by most of the family offices that you know you said that okay now you know if you have 100 then how do you want to split. And generally a majority goes into you know liquid assets so mutual funds, which of course you split the category between debt and bond and equity. And then there are now AIFs, the alternative investment space, which is again liquid in those terms. And then you have a bold as an asset class and your real estate, and then family offices have started putting a certain amount of the corpus into venture and private equity. And again there are two ways where the family offices look at that is either you participate in the funds where you know you decide that okay I choose the 10 best fund managers and you know put in small amount in these funds because you don't want to get involved into sort of running those companies. And then there is also a trend where a lot of families would like to do co investment and do direct investment into companies, like my family office also apart from putting into the technology funds. We have created a portfolio where I've invested directly into companies which are non tech so I also been interested in the consumer sector. So I have a couple of investments you know where which are Mobrik and Motta and which are doing fairly well. So the families decide that okay, there's a trend that you know we'll put certain amount directly because you know there's this co investment clubs, like in Camden we sort of bring families together where we also have this co investment workshops, where you know families bring deals on table. And then you know you feel comfortable investing directly because some other family member is already sort of taking the risk of doing the due diligence and you know already put in money. And then there is there is the venture capital funds and private equity funds. So both the things happening. The amount allocated to these category I would say, compared to international standards in a western US family office, or a European family office would be less because Indians are more risk covers. So if I would give example of my family office you know we will not probably put more than 10% into the category which is non liquid. And generally I know the families are not going beyond that where you know there was Indian equity markets I get doing you know very good returns. If you take a 10 year average or 10, 15 year Kaggle you know equity markets you know if you know 12 to 15% and that also in liquid, whereas funds you have the risk where you know it can perform well it may not perform and you know it's a long gestation period because generally private equity funds of venture funds have 10 year fund life you know so you sort of block your block your money into that. So whereas in the US you would find that there's a larger portion, which goes into this category because they probably the funds do much better there. And also the markets you know the return on on a liquid is hardly you know it's minus negative, you know, it's not like India even in a FD you get 7%. So, this is sort of to give you a background now, and you can have more detailed questions from you. So that was that was very helpful and indeed of course the fact that you took us back to put the systems and you know where you conceived it and sort of then migrated also towards the family office is very interesting to know. You know, let me ask you this you mentioned that investing in equities is always very powerful so Indians typically Indian family offices have always had a great sort of love for real estate. As a asset class. So do you think even post the pandemic that would continue to remain or do you think Indian families and overall Indian investors are going to sort of be less or real estate is going to be a less favorite in the coming times. So I think real estate has been, you know, I've seen it in my family and especially my father from from beginning since I've seen him you know as a as a young, young growing up child and when I came into working. I think land and real estate and you know has always hard asset has always been a safe haven for Indians because you know it's something where you can see and you feel comfortable and you can sleep at night. So traditionally lot of so I would say that I've been to portions of real estate one is traditionally what families have got it because of inheritance. Because you know our forefathers like my grandfather and great grandfather they accumulated a lot of land and property in Rajasthan because in those days it must be cheap you know 1930s or 1940s. And then it is just lying and filing it comes to us to this generation and then you say that okay should I develop it or should I sell it so there's been a lot of real estate in the 80s and 90s which came into the play in most of India especially you know place like Bombay there was a lot of Midland, the old land which was acquired. So a lot of these old families like us or you know especially industrial families who were into manufacturing like the Brilla's and you know Tata's and Bombardine they acquired a lot of land for for thinking of future expansion. You know the Jindals you know I'm going to expand my steel factories so let us buy and then they probably at some did not expand so that land ultimately is there now what do you do so then that's why there was a lot of land which was redeveloped into residential towers or complexes or malls and you know that's how these old lands which came into use like Bombay has a lot of them you know today the entire World League or if you see Malad and others have got developed including McCroley is all those lands which were owned by God ridges and you know the mill families so that has been one play where the land has got into our system because of ancestral property you know today. Second is there has been a lot of purchasing of land at in 80s and 90s because you could buy land and sell and make at those days the land prices were going you know much higher than equity. And then there was a trend where there was a lot of investment going into you know when a building gets launched and you buy at launch price and then you start flipping it. And you know I know families would say that let me buy 20 flats and you know today it's a launch price so it is very less and after a year. So now that ancestral property is over now because now most of the property which was maybe 70% has been used somehow balance is lying in litigation or you know because it has many members of the family and you know it's got some issues on the other. And the flipping over has stopped now because there is no money to be made because the prices have become stagnant over the last five eight years there is an oversupply. So I would say that investment now in real estate has come down as an asset class but there is yet opportunities there for example the people of course would buy for self use. Today if I am living in a three bedroom I would want to buy a four bedroom and and then you know maybe you would buy it for your son and for your daughter so extended family. So that's happening and families would like to keep more than one one property. So some amount of real estate is moving. The rental yields have again residential yields have been bad. And I think now it's it's not you know it's not economical to really buy residential property and then put it on rent because the yields will be really poor. Commercial has been doing fairly well there's a lot of activity in the commercial the last over the last 10 years. I think the yields have been doing good and there is of course a lot of real estate which was required by you know the larger corporates and MNC's banks the PPO's pharma companies. Now of course so that will continue I think people yet like to put in long term lease assets. So I think I would see yet some amount of money going there in in in commercial residential I would say that it will be a little bit slow down unless you know you are going to and changing the category like now there is a middle income housing. The flats are affordable there is a demand there. So that could be one category where people are investing for you know as an investment that you know you know that there will be sales and there is a requirement. There is also an investment which you could make in the B towns like them the bars and the smaller towns where again this is lower than even middle income. So I would say lower income you know where the flats gets sold very fast. You know like a flat costing 25 lakhs and there's a huge demand. So then you have to be opportunistic in real estate choosing commercial. I don't know it will remain asset class and there is opportunities but we have to see how the pandemic you know had given a situation where everybody went work from home. So there's a larger talk of you know larger companies MNC's and corporates going for work from home on a longer term. So we have seen that rentals are falling by 10 to 15 percent in commercial space. And we have to see for the next one year how you know how this is this a permanent situation where you know the work from home continues for larger organizations where they've decided that OK you know we will let 25 percent of the workforce work from home or everybody gets back and you know it becomes a normal situation when you're back to pre-COVID. I would here also add that there has been a lot of family officers who have also putting in money in real estate overseas. So there's a lot of buying happening in UK and Germany and the US where the returns are much better in terms of rental yields and as a diversification you know geographical and currency diversification. So from there and there I think real estate will remain part of your portfolio. Now the percentage of course will come down in you know compared to the olden days. Sure. No I think it's a fair assessment that you have made when it comes to real estate and particularly I think the fact that looking at global investments for family officers is certainly something on the anvil. So other than real estate where do you think if family offices have to invest in global assets and what kind of assets should they be. And I mean you know today if you'll see that there is so much emphasis on technology. So every new business that is coming up or every new startup that is happening is either a technology startup or it is enabling technology for other businesses about digital transformation. So do you see family offices actively participating on this side of the new business community that is developing and what kind of returns do you think they can expect. So one of the areas where you know we also as a family office have been allocating of course as you're aware that you know as an Indian wealth holder the there is a limit to how much rupee I can convert to the dollar because to abide by the RBI guidelines. Of course there are families who are NRIs or there are families who have global operations and they have access to funds. But there is a general trend that we have started allocating to US equities is the hotbed in terms of liquid assets. So there is you know you know all other family offices if you ask anybody they have allocated some amount or the other to the US equities you know either directly or through you know there are funds which you can put in and then it goes to the US. So equity remains and US I am particularly saying Europe is a little bit difficult because each country you know has some nuances and then there is the fluctuation of the Euro and then of course in UK you have found. But as far as public equity goes US has been always a favorite and will continue to remain good good bet. And then there have been a lot of investment going in the technology front especially in Silicon Valley. We as a family office is also you know invested in startups because we have connections there and my younger brother he keeps traveling to California often. So we have invested through some funds which are based in the Bay Area as well as direct investments. And so again US remains our interesting area for technology. So there's majority is happening in the Bay Area but then other other places like Boston New York and other states are opening up. There is investment in in UK for technology which is happening UK is trying to build a you know UK their corridor and there's opportunities there. So these I would say real estate equities and startups would be from a family office point of view would be the correct categories to invest. There are of course families who are probably wanting to get into traditional businesses and you know looking at manufacturing or other categories where they they feel that they can you know enter that market the US or Europe market. And so these would be the categories and geographically. China is a very difficult market because you don't know what's happening in China unless you know you know you have connections there and you know you want to be very specific in that you want to invest. Again and Japan there is a currency fluctuation which happens and you may lose out. So from a family office point of view I would say that US UK would be good Germany and then you have real estate equities and technology startups. Sure. So, certainly there in India has you know India has in your such a diverse country and there are family businesses which are there everywhere. So, whether you look in metros or whether even you go back to smaller towns, but they may have a traditional family business, which is now sort of. It puts them into a very complex situation today because there is enough wealth and the family business has been doing well, particularly in the pre pandemic days. And the there has been like, I would say a very comfortable sort of a family business where the entire family could, you know, be well off in particularly in their own region because of that family business. Now, but going forward their complexity is whether the traditional business will actually be able to survive the times that we are going into. So now what what would be your way forward for them. I mean you know should they set up a family office or should they be sort of looking at a technology side of the traditional business. What would you suggest for them to sort of diversify their wealth at this juncture when things around them are changing very fast, and the traditional business may not be, it may become invalid so to say, after a few years. No, I agree with you that there is a lot of you know because by virtue of running Camden which is a peer to peer networking for families we have actually been meeting families in these smaller towns and not poor and you know, I personally have gone on tours with my team and met families in Ahmedabad, Kochi, even Goa. In fact we have a Camden member from Goa, Hyderabad and we had people coming from you know Jalandhar and smaller towns and Bhopal. So there is a lot of families and the old businesses which are there which are actually doing well and there is a lot of wealth that is what we have found. There is a lot of wealth which but they have not come forward. They have been more you know happy with what they are doing, they are you know making good profit and you know they have a comfortable system in life and you know all the family members are together. But as you are saying they need to step out, they need to firstly create a more ecosystem on knowing that you know how they need to diversify. Firstly they need to learn how to diversify their businesses which could go global and which could also you know add categories in their businesses. So they need to be actually part of forums like Camden and other forums like YPO or you know know what's happening and probably go international, understand what's happening globally. And I think it is a time where they need to build a family office or a structure even though it's small because you see what happens is in traditional businesses which even it happened in you know larger olden families like you know and Jindal's and others where and even in Patni when happened you know when you usually run a family business where everything gets plowed back in the business. And you sort of don't even divide up the shareholding you know you'll have 10 members of the family working together. And at some point of time the Patrick falls in, he leaves without a will and there is no structure which has been created suddenly you know you'll have disputes and you know who owns what and there is the conflicts are happening. So it's good that you're happy and you're sort of plowing back everything in your operating business you know whatever your who's who's the eldest he keeps saying okay let us keep doing what we do. But I think that family office will help you set up governance system, you need to actually at the early stage distribute the wealth or distribute the shareholding. So what happens is supposing you're running a factory and it's doing very well but who are the owners of the factory, you need to be clear all the 10, you know three brothers their sons and everybody's working together fine. But be very clear that there is a clear ownership structure that either it's a ownership or you know there is a whatever the ownership needs to be defined. And that is what the family office does you know you define the ownership of your company, you have to start creating wealth for family members. Now what happens is if you have 10 family members who are working in this big industry, it may be 5000 crore turnover, it may be doing you know 200 crore profit, the profit gets plowed in the company. Now you have to set up a system that okay it was a private company, the shares are illiquid, dividend out every year, dividend out to each family member so that each family member starts getting their own purpose. And you sort of then have a wealth of the family which is separate from the operating company. So there are a lot of these nuances you know and there is of course trust in estate planning, wealth, you need to have a system that you know what will the next gen be doing. Now 10 family members may not be required in one factory, if you're going to professionalize the business and you have you know today all capable manpower and you hire the best people. So you have to create businesses for your next gen. So all that I think is very important for families who are in the smaller towns and cities where they need to set up these systems where is actually the role of a family office where you know all this thing happens and you create all the systems and processes. And it will also help you then decide whether you made as you mentioned you may decide that it's better to sell out. Right. And then you know have the wealth and the business gets gets outdated. So all these things is where it's very important for the family to really really get into it now and not wait till till it's too late you know. We get a lot of families who come to our Camden platform where you know they've sold the business and now they say how do I set up a family office. Right. Now, that is one of the things I give credit to my father that we set up our family office before we sold our business because then it was easier to deal with you know the many issues what happens. So yeah sure. No I think you're totally right and particularly in small cities where you know it's even hard to get the best practices. So particularly with you know the Camden connect that you have which is to help a lot of family businesses to set up their family offices. What what kind of trends are you seeing today in terms of investments by family offices in India. You know what what kind of trends have you noticed in smaller cities where family offices and family businesses who are sort of trans pressing into wealth wealth management wealth diversification. What what trends have you seen when it comes to investments by family offices particularly small cities and even I would say some big cities. So I think the family offices generally and families in India. They are more wanting to preserve the wealth. So I would say that larger families, large part of families would like to keep you know that into safe havens so you do more of debt and bond and deposit and you look for products where return could be less but you know you are safe. There is a certain time which continues to go to equity but in again in equity people like to be safe. I mean there are a set of people who I would who do daily trading and you know there was a different set of people and who play in the market and all that but majority of us who would say that even if I do equity I will look for equity which is good stocks and let them be for five years ten years. So if you ask any you know very expert fund manager he would say that pick ten fifteen stocks and just keep it with you and you know we don't want to churn that you are selling this tomorrow. So most of the families don't go by what is happening in the market. So today if I do a reaction that the market is very good let me sell everything or the market is very bad let me buy. So that I think the families don't do. Right. So I'm not talking about those people who are into the market and daily they're you know online trading and all I'm talking about general people like us and even in the smaller smaller towns and they will say that OK. I want to play it safe I'll buy the good stocks good mutual funds and then you know let that be maybe you will have certain portion for trading. And OK you know if I have 100 I'll put five and tell us may happen. You know I'll play around with it. But it's 90% would be you know that has been the trend which will continue especially after COVID I think people will be more careful. The other trend is that even in smaller cities and families there are wanting to put money into direct companies private companies. So the startup ecosystem today has reached to a ripor and to Surat to not poor. So all these places there are there's a everybody is there who's wanting to put the money. You know. So even a person. Yeah. Even who's his business may be in real estate or he may be into having a steel factory. He would like to put into technology startup some money to be there. So there's a trend that certain amount whether it's small or whatever percentage should go into you know technology startups. And that's why you'll find the trend that lot of Indian fund houses who are raising venture fund and private equity tend to do a good. You see five seven years back you would find that most of the money was from foreign LPs which was right. Yeah. Today there are a lot of Indian managers and Indian funds you know including you know established players like ask and send room and a lot of TVS who have raised Indian money. So there's a lot of Indian money now which is going into funds which are getting into private equity and venture. So that has been another trend which is happening with families and and then the co-investment bit where the families would like to invest through a co-investment platform like Camden and other angel networks which are there. So that's been another trend. Sure. No that's very helpful but I mean since you mentioned that even today in smaller cities family businesses are looking to invest in startups and technology startups at that. So how do you how do you sort of advise these family businesses to make the right investments I mean you know it's a so investing in startups is an extremely risky affair. And especially if you're not coming from a technology background and you're not an engineer who doesn't understand what take and take businesses gravitate towards. What would you suggest to them I mean do you think there is more safety in numbers where in you know let's say 10 family businesses get together and make an investment and therefore everybody has a small small share in that startup and they don't lose too much money if they lose in that startup at all. So I mean what would be a better practice to do it or it's better to sort of put park your money to a fund even like a fund like yours as you said that you also run a VC fund for tech startups to make that kind of investment. So how can they make a very risky investment less riskier for themselves. So I think of course funds is some amount should be allocated to a fund venture fund or a private equity fund where you of course in there you don't know which company is getting ultimately invested because you know you just give it an online poll. But at least you evaluate the fund manager you know the fund manager is good he has a good track record and a fund which has been there for many life cycles you know that you can do all that due diligence so you know that you know there is a fair amount of a chance that you will not lose your money. So that's the advantage in going to you know the venture fund and establish funds. Then you can put in probably smaller amount. So what happens is you know venture fund you would have to allocate a minimum amount. You would have to normally 50 lakhs to a crore is a minimum if you go to a fund or some larger funds you know maybe they take up to a million dollars as a minimum. So that is one disadvantage where you know you may not want to put that much out but whereas through the startup system you know especially if you are doing to a smaller startup then you know you can really go as low as saying okay I will not put more than 5 lakhs or 10 lakhs and I can put that into 10 startups. Very seed and angel level. So these are the two different platforms I think a lot of families and I know would like to know these companies. So what happens is you go to a Camden workshop where you know you will meet the promoter of the startup you would be able to interact with them you can decide whether you want to put money or not. So like that there are a lot of forums I mean apart from Camden there is the whole Indian angel network, there is Mumbai angel, each city has its network like Chennai angels, Bangalore angels. There is Wecat, Venture Cat list which is out there. So there are where you can you know they have every month a pitch day where they you know they will shortlist and they will pitch and then you know you get to meet the entrepreneurs and you can choose. So it gives you more feeling about it. I met the entrepreneur I like him and you also have the flexibility of playing with a smaller amount. So at Camden like we run every three months we run a workshop where we have our Camden members they pitch four to five so each member will come so four or five pitches we do and then you know they can decide so I would I would advise that you know you take both the approaches put in certain amounts through the startup angel systems and through co-investment systems and allocate a certain amount to the VCs so you get a diversification and you also get both the worlds you know where you can the idea is that you want to be out there and if something hits becomes a sixer then you know you make money. Yeah that's a good approach so you mean that diversify so you know across categories and you know so yeah that's a smart approach. So you know we've just had a question on our Facebook page where by Joseph Simon who says that I'm in Karylite and an Australian government endorsed health entrepreneur. Can I find family business investors from India? I mean is it possible? So he says he's a Karylite and an Australian government endorsed health entrepreneur so I'm presuming he's in Australia. So he's saying that if he has to find family business investors in India what would be a good approach? I think a good approach would be you know through LinkedIn. You know I think if you post your requirement on LinkedIn and you find out there are a lot of entrepreneurs from India or investors in India who are based on LinkedIn so you could that is definitely one way where which works and you know I get a lot of inquiries on LinkedIn through that. And I'm sure there is a community there in Australia which tries to you know get good start-ups and then they bring ideas to India because there's always a cross-border approach happening where I see people from other countries coming and pitching their ideas to Indian families. Sure. So you know another question I had was that today even family you set up your family office in 2002 so there is obviously a next generation which is coming in the family office as well. And then their lenses for an asset class might be very different from the asset classes that you or your father would have thought were good investments at their point of time. So I mean how can you sort of now in this generational family sort of transition. Now how do you sort of match the interest because the wealth cannot be infinite it will always be finite and you know today. I was reading the other day about a certain report in UK where they said that more people in the 50s they invested in real estate and equity while people millionaires they invested more in cryptocurrency. So then new asset classes which are totally coming out. So how do you sort of now in with a finite wealth. How do you sort of take the interest of everybody together in our family business. What would be your advice. So my advice would be to see as a as a wealth of the family is first is to preserve. So you need to you know preserve majority of your wealth into assets which will not have a capital erosion. And then you have a certain portion which goes in a risky assets where you can take the risk. And as the new generation comes into play. You need to set aside a certain amount that OK you know we will have to take out X amount because you know your son or daughter says I want to start this new business on to a startup and and you say that this is what you will get and then you know you have to then manage that. So a live case and live example is my daughter just you know last couple of years she was studying and she's a she's a journalist and like you. She has done a mass media and a master's in mass media from Jane then she went to UK. Now she's back she worked in a couple of places writing and now she's doing her own startup. Publishing online publishing house. Yes some idea. So I said look I'll give you X amount for the next 12 to 18 months. Now you prove it and then you raise money. So I mean you have to put up a system in process because it has happened I have seen in the olden days where you are having operating companies and you know you are making cash in the same and if I think in steel and suddenly you divert the profit into real estate and then you lose the money. So it should not and you have to then and that has happened in most of the families in India where you know you sort of diversify because you don't have the money. You know you have to set up a factory for him but without putting a certain limit. So I think the advice is that you know decide a certain amount of capital which you will have it for your young generation you know you have to set them up. Or at the same time you have to be clear that there is no as you said there is. It's not infinite that capital. Right. So that's what my advice would be. Sure. So divide it depending upon the interest of the generations. Yeah. So that's what yeah. Okay so you know we're almost coming at the end of the talk. I would like to ask you if you were to give a model sort of strategy for investments to a family office in India. What would it be in percentage terms how would a model investment to you for a family office look like let's say this much percentage in real estate this much percentage in equities. If you could just sort of give an overview on that. So if you take the asset allocation I would say is that 30 to 40% should be in debt. And you can have around 40% in equity which would be public equity and then 10% in alternatives. I have different funds and I would say 10% would be in private equity and venture and things like that. I would say that I would put real estate in that 20% bucket of AIF and private equity. So I'm not I'm taking out the real estate which I own for the house I'm staying in or real estate which I must have got from inheritance or real estate which is there because I bought it from my factory and it's lying there. So, I'm running off your day to day liquid assets. Right. So, I would put that 20% bucket which includes AIF and venture and private equity that also includes real estate products. Sure. So, and basis the model what kind of returns would you suggest a family office would be able to draw out of it. So conservative I would say you should set a target of 14 to 15%. But if you get anywhere between 12% or stacks, it should be good. Sure. A lot of analysis and I've seen even you know since we started the family office in 2002. I don't think family office on a conservative basis unless you know you have a bumper and you take big risk of putting 80% in equity or doing some other theories. You should not be thinking. Because the moment I tell my CIO that I want 25%, she'll say okay, I'm a 90% equity medal. But will you sleep in the night? So, I think to be conservative and to have a good sleep in the night one should not aim more than 12% to 15%. I'm talking about rupee terms. I'm talking about dollar terms now. Right. Dollar returns are different because of the foreign exchange and all that. Sure. No, no, I think this was very helpful Mr. Patini. I think you've sort of given at least a first step towards family businesses and also to our family businesses to think differently about their business in total. I mean, you know, what worked 10 years ago or 15 years ago may not necessarily work in the coming years as well. So therefore it's very important how family businesses will plan themselves to be able to hold that wealth. I mean, I from where I see them see things there is a totally different sort of run list that might just happen, you know, in 2025 or 2020 or 2030. If we do not preserve the wealth the way we need to. So, thank you very much for talking. Thank you for giving me this opportunity. So it's a real pleasure and in fact there are still some questions coming on our Facebook page and I would request you or your team if you can whenever you find some time to answer it. That would be very helpful. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Bye bye.