 The clock on the wall says seven o'clock, so we'll call the meeting to order of the committee of the whole Foreign here Hammond here Hanna Excuse me, mr. Chairman. I believe he should be excused. He told me the other night He was going to Branson and I should have passed it on to you. I'm sorry, okay In the future for the alderman, please call me so I have some idea. Thank you Pat here Kittleson is here Monta Mayor here Radke here Rainflesh here Vander wheel here Versey here and wangeman here Forum is present. Thank you. Holds for legions To the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands One nation under God and invisible with liberty and justice for all Next we need approval of the previous minutes so moved Motions are made and second to prove the previous minutes any discussion all in favor say aye. I share what's I opposed Right moving on this evening. We really have two separate but very important topics The first will be a report from the subcommittee of the strategic fiscal planning And the topic if I understand it will be Gaging the public and the departmental as well as the council views on our long-term budget future for the city Raising taxes raising revenues cutting services and if so what services So to begin if I didn't already steal your thunder alderman ducker if you would thank you mr. Chairman I think you pretty much said it all That's what we're doing and that's what we're doing here tonight We want the public to weigh in on our situation as well as the council so we can hear A little more input as far as where we want to go in what direction we want to head as a city Just to give you a little background information of what we've done so far The committee is a group five of us When in the teams of two and split ourselves up to cover four areas of the city DPW police Library as well as the fire department I won't get into details as far as the Department head updates and ideas. I'll let them do that But that's what we're doing here tonight get more input so we know which direction we got ahead So with that I think we can move on into the department head updates question for you I think we discussed this before but for public works police fire in the library There's a reason you picked just those to focus on right now We just we picked four just out of the blue based on budget size probably we were we're not gonna single any Department out we definitely want to approach every one of them, but these are four biggest City so I think it was a committee's decision that we start with this and Move on from there. Okay. Very good Unless the the committee has any other information or Jeremy I will move on then see department head updates Ideas and possible solutions To making cuts and or and on the agenda says revenues, which should be revenue enhancers To their individual departments. I'll turn on to our thank you chairman. We're in flesh as part of that subcommittee on that One of the people on that subcommittee. We have no recommendations. We're gathering information, right? And I'm sorry if I didn't make that clear This is a input session for the council and for the subcommittee to really hear what the public has to say what the departments have to say No decisions are being made today budget-wise, but it gives us a long-term direction of of where the public would like us to go For the long like the long haul so once we start on a path of some kind of budget plan we can stick with it Just as a clarification State statute has the the responsibility for producing in the case of city of Sheboygan our size a balanced budget Rest solely in the mayor's office the purpose of this budget subcommittee and the subsequent meetings, which I think are great Is to supply the mayor? along with department heads and the citizens input as to prioritization and direction so We can't come forth with a right with a recommendation of sorts, but we this input is very important Okay, very good Without further ado, we'll guess we'll start with the department head of public works little bit near The elevators close and he disappears And he's back thank you, Mr. Chairman As I understand it This is primarily a listening session for the council to get ideas and particularly from the public When We met or what I met with my two representatives of the of the subcommittee They talked about public works perhaps Looking at cuts of about 250,000 in the upcoming budget 250,000 I guess I see three approaches Of where we are in the big book term budget picture. That's Continual marginal cuts, which my department has been doing now for for quite a while That's probably the first one 250,000 if you understand Assuming you want reoccurring savings and permanent Savings probably the only way to do that is people positions and elimination of the Both the individuals for the cost and the work they do and the services they provide 250,000 at minimum is probably four people In my department of 112 people that's Not quite 4% but you have to put it in perspective of indicating that in the past years. We've done some pretty marginal Continually cutting services and cutting at the edges to the point where all of a sudden we're no longer at the edges Since January of 208 or the start of that budget the city's cut 25 full-time positions in a 2010 modification Where we actually cut more than the budget to help balance that budget our budgets the same as it was in 2000 So if you look at a ten-year period, we're operating in the same operating budget in the last negotiations we actually in attempting to get a Reduction of no across-the-board increase we actually made Summer temporary help, which is low-cost help not practical And we've kind of made reorganizing the department to save money sort of difficult And I guess I only say that because those kind of things I may be out of bullets in terms of what we can do with the With the with the changes we can make in the department when I talked 25 Eliminations over a period of time to give you some perspective. It's always let's go to the big departments and the big department should cut Right now we're trying to maintain the entire parks department with 15 people Remember we cut 25 over a two and a half year period The wastewater plant is run by 16 people Garbage is collected every day by nine people All the street sweeping the city is done by three Tree crews that have traditionally planted cut and trim trees in the city for recent past has been for people So when you take the scale of those operations and say over less than two and a half years You cut 25 you can see how we've changed our operation and probably the biggest changes. We don't have Divisions much anymore. We just have to do the the critical things. That's in front of us I Think one of the things we have to do is is probably look at consolidation work effort more than just the big Departments we're going to have to say just because you're a small work group You have to somehow coordinate that work with another work group To do additional changes I Called cutting at the margin even though we're well down to done the meat I think we're going to have to see some some changes without a lot of Analysis on what we can do I think without question we're going to have to cut Our snow efforts last couple years we've made we've become a lot skinnier in our snow efforts but we made ourselves Not a practical operation to do a second and third wave of snow fighting for two years We haven't needed a second third wave of snow fighting so we've been able to produce a very high quality product with a lot less people I think we're probably have to cut a few services off that first wave plow with less lemon and equipment I think if we cut another four positions I think we have to use the assumption that what we're going to do things well and Abandon some things so I'm thinking in terms of that we probably designate three four Maybe even five parks where we go down to maintaining the playground only and let the I'll let the acreage be Abandoner weed weed cut is probably the way to put it the Beloved drop-off site is probably go to a yard waste drop-off site only eliminate all the other services there and probably need to cut our Festival catering it doesn't mean we don't pick up garbage do barricades and that kind of stuff But we also provide tables chairs stages Those kind of things the festival that in many communities typically provided through the rental market Those are the kind of things they're not intended to be complete. They're not intended to be analysis of what to do I think from the cuts we made Both last year through the star resolution in the mid-year and then the cuts We made actually after the budget were adopted the public works committee is still feeling its way through some of the changes that we've made But those are the kind of things if we're going to simply Cut positions by dividing the cost of a position by what budget savings. We have to make are going to have to start happening I think I also talked with a true councilman about the possibility of Stabilizing revenue sources. I believe there was a proposal last year in the budget that we worked very hard on that was intended to move The cost of government onto a fee-for-service basis and away from taxes in that case We were trying to make it neutral in terms of the city's cost We may not be in that situation next year that we actually have to use some Some dollars from new fees That's been going on for 20 years. We're actually way behind the curve in terms of a movement away from property taxes I think in council bluffs. I what 25 years ago. We worked for two years on going to a sales tax in that community including Pushing for a legislative change so you could have a local sales tax. So these things aren't new issues. They're probably also not new in terms of water and sewer are basically ingrained the rule Garbage fees are very traditional in Wisconsin stormwater fees now are very very commonplace Those are the kind of things that moves entire functions to different rate based Removing them from the tax and the negativity of some of the negative impacts property tax has Some of volatility of property tax and also can be argued as some of the unfairness of property tax if you Improve your house and property tax somehow garbage collection is worth more to you because your home is now more valuable But we've had that debate and I guess the issue is Are we going to look for any revenue enhancements when you look at at how big of an issue we have I would suggest you look at Serious changes even if you return or hopefully can return some of those rate based systems back to reducing property taxes I think those are more dramatic and more Sustainable as we go forward than simply saying let's find a little money here. Let's raise this inspection fee Let's change Things by small incremental amounts and you have to be very careful in raising revenues that you don't Spend the money collecting it that you've actually raised which is really easy and at least in my department when you start talking about Services we provide and and how you collect it. So I think one of the issues has to be is there a way To move to more a stable base, which was what we were arguing last year that we wouldn't have these huge declines Like we're having a property tax on a rate base Maybe we're past that Probably the third thing there's more of a long-range thing But I think we I've looked at the the curves that the finance or director made for the fire department Which is what's happening and what's happening over the years between our expenditures and revenues And really if you look at that those proportioning Huge divide for those of you've seen that report between revenues and expansion a continually ever-increasing divide is really just proportional to the entire city That we have over several years a huge Distance that accumulates each year and I think The only way you're really going to address that is is to make some real thought about What should city services really be? I Think we can look at our organization simply as how do we get by another year or you can and this is longer range than I Think the charge given to the subcommittee, but at some point we have to talk about the The broader picture. I think you have a clear pattern of wealth moving out of town. You have a clear pattern of household incomes in this city declining And that doesn't change without changing some formula that's that's that's happening here And we have kind of a model of city services that probably was created if you understand city services prior to the World Wars That if you look at the heart of the city and the services we provide it was established After the war is when this so-called community of this country urbanized we suburbanized in reality But we kept the levels of service That we sort of Established for the heart of the urban area an example of that will be I live in a neighborhood in the city by requirement of my job District 7 that district 7 Represented well if I recall We have no storm sewer We have no curb and gutter We have no sidewalk We have no street lights. I live out there with the past finance director and a past police chief and We didn't go out there because the city wasn't providing those services and our alderman failed to deliver those services to us Flowers we're paying for those and have those coming We went out there because that neighborhoods where we wanted to live without what we call absolute necessities in urban life If you go to say what does a subdivision have to have for our community? We suggest we need those things and I'm suggesting that needs to be questioned in terms of any future growth and Certainly, can we back up and I'm just using my department simple physical plant as an example But we're competing with the townships the townships have people moving into them the townships don't provide the services We talk about is absolutely critical So the question is are we stuck in a real old model? I guess to turn that into another public works example when we talk tax base, and I just mentioned it earlier We talk about garbage collection and can we any way afford to keep the drop-off site functioning? When we talk moving to what other communities have done over several years We talk about having a garbage fetus provide garbage in those services One of the questions you would ask in rethinking what our services are is that a service? I could be just be frighted by the public market and the city doesn't have to be in it at all That's just an example. That's not a proposal, but you have in the long-range thinking we have to decide is the Model of city government not viable for our community, but I would suggest for my knowledge What's going on country-wide is the model of city government not viable at all And do we need to change what we think of as the model of city government? Thank you director, that's that's Very good We'll hold questions until we get to our committee discussion in long-range direction as we need to keep moving However, I see the fire chief and the police chief Under discussion. I'm sure it's about the situation on the south side of town the the water rescue I asked for a short recess for a minute or two and find out what's going on So it's motion to recess motion to recess back in all favor. All right, Stan recess. Thank you All right, we'll move on Community discussion. Is there any questions or comments from the committee? I've been born It is not on okay, I have a couple speaker the microphones are on but the system is not on I have a couple questions for chief Dumbagalski, please Chief I'm sorry Yes, it is. It is not live. It is being typed away Evening chief. Good evening got a couple questions for you a couple one clarification You said that when when you were when you became chief you had 82 sworn officers and now you had 78 Did you have to lay off for people? Or how are you? We had two retirements and two people resigned The next question I had is in the situation you are with your manpower right now How are you doing for overtime so far this year so far? We're doing really well That's one of the areas that I talked about that we might be able to save some money But it's the beginning of June Memorial Day just happened so on holidays is when we use up some of that and then some of the other overtime would happen during major investigations or events and most of that typically happens or a lot of that happens in the summer as more people are out and Things are occurring. So it's very difficult for me to Gauge at this point whether I'm going to end the year with a lot of savings still there Or whether some of that's going to get used up or not, but that's one of the areas that I'm definitely looking To have some savings Do you still have any officers on military leave? No, they're all back. Yes. Thank goodness The other thing chief after your evaluation of the of your evaluation of the department so far Would you say that you are adequately staffed if you had the 82 you started out with or if you envision more if you envision more officers where in your opinion after your Observation in the departments would you where would you use those officers if you thought you needed more than the 82 I? See I see what a need for one one more supervisor and that's on the sergeant level The reason for that is we have a street crimes unit street crimes unit is the unit that we ask to Engage in what we would call the riskiest type of work that we do they're placing themselves In in the type of situations repeatedly that would require the use of force Would expose them to recovering Drugs money or the other things that that might lead to temptation and cause scandal And if you look at the major scandals throughout the country Rampart in in Los Angeles Some of the issues they had in Miami, New Orleans Those are the type of units that those events occur in so not to have a supervisor that is dedicated and responsible for Setting the course answering their questions being there to oversee what they're doing and be responsible to mitigate the risk That we're placing them in To me is is just that it's a gamble that we're taking and I think it's a place that that we need somebody else to take some responsibility to Assume some of that risk and then help us out there If I could just ask one more chief I understand from Your previous staffing levels a couple of years ago on the street crimes area Which I agree is a very important area the dedicated officers to street kind street crimes is less than it was a Couple of years ago It's the same there's three there's three people I put another person on there and in my opinion That's another area that that could use another person. There's three people on there and in the regular Off-day rotation with three people once in a while you end up with only one person on there and in doing the kind of work that they're gonna do They're pretty much useless at that point if they're by themselves So just so I understand correctly then if you get back to 82 sworn officers Which which which? Wasn't wasn't budgeted this year because of your salary not being in in the budget is that correct if you could get back to 82 And we could get you in the 2011 budget the the sergeant for street crimes. Would you consider that to be adequate staffing then I? Think there's some more looking at it to do, but I think that's right in a ballpark. Yes, okay. Thank you very much All right, Hannah Chief first first a statement In terms of number of phone calls I get from constituents with positive comments The changes you've made with how you're delivering services with visibility ranks number one by a Factor of 10. I mean so what you're doing is being very very well received by the community So I commend you on on doing that. I wanted the officers on the street that are doing a fabulous job It's it's just wonderful to see them with parking their cars walking back on bikes It's it's already making a difference and there's lots of positive comments and to follow up when the question with Alderman-born So if we really need 82 plus one so 83 would be the staffing or 82 You don't I haven't no I have all kinds of stuff in back. I haven't finished Actually sitting down and going through it and determining, but it's it's I think it's right in that area You know, and I just think in terms of quality of life your proactive Approach rather than a reactive approach and I think Alderman-Wongman will agree with me It's nice to see more officers Out of headquarters and out on the street. So I thank you Thank you Alderman Bowers Yes, chief if I understand you correctly. We're down to 78 officers were budgeted for 82. Is there anything in the works now to? Add two officers or maybe even four that we can put in this year Would that be in the budget? If you have the money stashed away someplace that Understand but since retired and we had two people quit so that money could be used for at least two That money can't be used that money is being used to to pay my salary and my benefits Oh, I see all right So that's so so the retirements that the positions for the retirements the money was was budgeted budgeted but Part of it was used up in the time that they worked for the department Now what's left over is being shifted to cover things that weren't budgeted. So technically or Originally, we're gonna remain at 78 officers until maybe the end of the year And unless someone the council has something to change it. Okay. All right Okay The names aren't accurate up here. Is it Alderman Bach back here or is it Hammond? Okay, Alderman Hammond. I Also accurate, you know Echo Alderman Hannah's comments. I'm glad to see them more the neighborhood community policing So kudos and we've never formed really had an opportunity to talk that I just wanted to point that out I guess my question is you know in addition to this CAD system that you guys are bringing on board Is there any other areas in the technology any investments in technology? You could think of that might long term help improve the budget situation in the police department I think there's a couple different areas But I think we're better off and in pursuing grants to try to get that stuff I don't think it should come out of the budget. There's an Alpark our license plate reader that I think would would really help us Be more intelligent in how we Operate and do things, you know, there's also simple things that that the department's never done before that that One of the biggest problems with a police organization is that it's Military based in an authority. It's it's autocratic and they're the reason that we have that is for in crisis So that somebody takes charge and gives direction and and we can even things out The problem with having an organization like that is that it becomes bureaucratic and it stifles innovation So one of the big challenges when I'm talking about changing the culture in the department is Changing that culture so that we become a learning org is an organization that people are comfortable Stepping up when they recognize a problem pointing out what the problem is and offering solutions to what that is and that that happens at the Lowest level in the organization. Everybody's not waiting for me or a captain in the department to say. Yeah, that's a good idea Let's do it officers Are our clerks they have great ideas. It just in the last couple months. We've had had two things happen where we have Two clerks that work in court services that basically changed with with a simple outlook program and Somebody other Microsoft programs that we have that the way that we deliver and manage subpoenas and court appearances And so rather than printing and copying subpoenas and signing them and using reams of paper It's all done electronically now and gets sent to the to the officers email account goes right on their email calendar So it's right there and they're not Carrying around a calendar book stuffed with 70 subpoenas there if they if they don't have their calendar book with them They can go on the online and access their their outlook account and look right there and see if they have court in the morning Or whether the case got handled so it's just simple things like that But it makes us so much more efficient and saves us all kinds of time We have another officer Ryan Schmidt that's been working on changing a Lot of the forms and processes that we use to communicate because one of the biggest problems We have is we don't communicate well enough if there's a problem happen on on 10th and Geely Right now tonight to the officer that comes in at 11 o'clock should know about it Then the officer that that comes in at 7 o'clock in the morning should know about it too And there has to be a system in a way that we're constantly communicating that information so that everybody has the information And when they have free time or are spending their time where the problems are instead of just randomly driving around the city All the university. Thank you Everyone said the same thing We're so appreciative on how you've stepped up the visibility of police department in town How have you gone about certain areas? Probably, you know, I've talked in the past about this about unit hour utilization and you're the way you put number of units in Certain areas certain time of day. Is there mad science to that or is it pretty basic? I? Just want to caution the one thing I think is really important as if if the public's here it is to get their input It's one of the things that that I stress It's we need to know what their expectations are so that we can deliver it But I think that the basic policing philosophy comes down to that neighborhoods are the building block of Communities and what's happening in every neighborhood is different and as a police organization we have to recognize that Based on that if we're going to control what's going on We have to the real job of the police is to control the public spaces if the police aren't out in the public spaces and Trouble starts to happen then fear sets in people go lock themselves into their house Stop communicating stop getting to know their neighbors Stop calling the police and doing those things and then the bad element takes over and sees it as an invitation to do Whatever they want so our real job as the police is to be out in those public spaces Where things are occurring? For us to do that it goes back to one of the things I guess there's a lot of different things that I can talk about But one of the big things that that happens is I lost my train of thought of course How we use information to deploy our resources we need to know what's happening and one of the major things that's happened throughout the country is Just random patrol we assign officers to an area and we tell them you go out there and and drive around and hopefully it will run Into problems that the random patrol gets you random results. We don't want random results We know where problems are we have to to gather that information and direct the officers to where those problems are So that they're spending their time in those problems There's neighborhoods in the city of Sheboygan that that have informal social control the neighbors all know each other They talk to each other if a problem comes in they see it they alert their neighbors to it They call the police and the police come and take care of it There's other neighborhoods where where that doesn't occur. There is no informal social control There's no indigent leadership people are in fear they're hiding in their houses They're not out in the public spaces, so none of that's occurring So our job as the police then is to occupy those public spaces to reduce fear so that people start to get to know them because this It's not just the police's job It's everybody's job to build a safe community and and so what we have to do as the police is to be able to enable the Citizens that live here to be able to practice their civic responsibility and and take control of their neighborhood Thank You Chairman Rindfelsch first of all chief I'd like to say I sure I'm glad we don't have bureaucracy in the rest of the city like the police department so No one thing I think we should make Clear and let the public know and I'm sure the council should be aware of it. We have applied for a grant Correct for for three additional officers in the future Not we're in a process of life or it hopefully we can get that we the feds will fund three officers for a period of three years We have to fund the fourth year and that may feel part of the gap that we're in right now, hopefully Good use of revenue enhancer. Thank you finding grants when he's out there in some cases. It's our money So I'll bring it here. Thank you. Thank you Almond Decker I actually had a comment on the library so as long as everybody's finished with That's all lights I have so I would just like to Clear up I think what is some misinterpretation I Have here in my hands the state statute for the library MOE maintenance of effort and In big bowl letters. It says expulsion with the approval of the division meeting the state a Public library system may expel public library system meaning the eastern shores or Reduce aids or services to a municipality or county that fails to meet the requirements under so what I am reading here is Far different than what I'm understanding when other people are Presenting it. I guess what I am feeling when we're hearing from others is that no matter what If we go below MOE It's basically a done deal. We're kicked off Creating this that's far from the case It's my understanding that if we were to go below MOE Eastern shores library system has to get clearance through the state before they can even touch us With the state putting caps on our spending I I I don't know if How lenient they would be at this point so it's it's something to think about I just wanted to clear it up because I think a lot of People have a little misinterpretation as how this is spelled out One moment. It's on the committee comments Other than bulk. Thank you, Mr. Chairman to piggyback on Jeremy's comments In light of the fact that they have that discretion It's up to them and in the committee conversation we had with director Winkle She indicated that I Apologize I'm frazzled Where was I going? Oh Eastern shores It hurts Eastern shores to kick us out in this area because we are the big Repository in this area as I understand it and so for them to kick us out Hurts them about as much as it hurts us And so if there is discretion at the state level and it hurts ESL as much as it hurts us if there is a kicking out Then I would think there would be a very difficult conversation If the state chooses to kick us out Then I think every taxpayer in Sheboygan has a gripe with Terry and Joe to say What are you doing kicking us out when this this is mutually beneficial? We get that we're below MOE, but to kick us out hurts ESLS as much as it does us So that's comment one and the second one is and President Gisha you may be able to help with this Last year as we were having the very difficult budgetary conversations one of the very difficult but very public conversations I think I remember was I think the council was prepared to take the library below MOE last year And then some money appeared from some accounts and I forget what accounts those were but there was a okay We will give you we will live up to the obligation of MOE But there was this give-back that was part of that agreement wasn't there And so where I'm going with that and why I mentioned that is because some people may be under the misunderstanding that it's really only a net $2,000 that costs us that half a million dollars, but based on the way we structured the 2009 budget It's actually a lot more incrementally high without that give back We'd be giving the library a lot more than just $2,000 wouldn't we and thank you, mr. Chairman Maron and director Mike Lee I'm sure you'll want to respond Well, thank you. Thank you chairman or inflation. I just thought that the council should be aware I had a meeting last week with the the heads of the League of Municipalities and the Wisconsin Alliance of Cities soon to be Brought into under one umbrella. I believe it's going to be called the Urban League is what they're going to call it So there'll be one organization that represents municipalities in the state and they are they have identified the maintenance of effort as one of the Issues at the state level that they plan on addressing this year in the state legislature to because everybody and speaking with other mayors and Administrators around the state everybody's in the same boat and so I believe that the whole maintenance of effort issue may change this year that That that that come the compounding of Possibly reducing the library budget may not be an issue Yeah, I try to go if you would I respond Alderman Hennice you punched in I Were over time so for the next topic. I'll let director ankle respond, please And that we will get to you, but just so the council is aware we're into our fire department at time now my approach to the Jeopardy or risk of expulsion if you will comes from years of conversations with Michael Cross who is the head of the public library development team of Division for libraries technology and community learning Which is part of the Department of Public Instruction and this topic has come up before because naturally the city has looked at this situation in recent years and What my cross ends up telling me is yes it is Eastern shores library system that does the expulsion and Yes, there is an expectation on the part of the state that the system will uphold the statute and Will expel a library that does not comply There is a process Where in DLTC L will come in and talk with a municipality or other entity That's not meeting one of the system membership requirements MOE is not the only one So it's not like You know on January 1 We would be out But when I've talked with him in the past about magnitude of missing hitting that MOE Funding requirement if you will If it's several thousand dollars for library our size, maybe ten thousand dollars, there's you know some sort of hope that there can be a resolution in Negotiations or conversations between DLTC L and the city in this case If there is a very large difference It's been my understanding and the information from Mike Cross has always indicated that If things aren't moving along then the reduction of service and the expulsion is expected There's a group of system Resource and system and resource library directors in the state and when we started to go into this economic downturn time They met I wasn't there I have the minutes from the meeting and what they decided to do was to take a firm and I'm paraphrasing a firm approach on Libraries municipalities etc funding authorities that don't meet the system requirements They got together and decided that that's what they were going to do if there is movement and there's going to be a change and There's going to be instruction to DLTC L because of the economic downturn That it's going to back off that stance That would change things obviously I don't have that information and I appreciate Mayor Ryan sharing that with us this evening but none of the information that I've ever had in these conversations with representatives of DLTC L or Eastern shores has indicated to me that Expulsion would not result I have an urgent phone call. I just want to ask if I can be excused for five minutes. Please All right, the lights are off moving on to the next item on the agenda The second part dealing with the fire departments And as we go forward Two things to keep in mind that we do have a short-term budget Crisis in the department over time. So we're looking at Both short-term solutions to this budget problem as well as possible long-term structural changes to the department as well So really as we go as we go through keep in mind there are two items key one right now Though is dealing with the short term as far as I'm concerned the short-term budget crisis that we're facing and we need to make a Decision so first on the agenda is RC number 3211 by public protection safety Who was referred to RO number 2310 11 by city clerk submitting incident detail prints Chewbacca police department and a summary of animals response times for the period one one ten through three thirty one ten It's made by all the person versey Thank You chairman Probably a fire chief or actually deputy chief Butler if he's here just to go over I did receive his wards reports And even within his own wards reports. I went through each and every call There were several actually concerns of mine because actually a couple of these become liabilities of the city Some of them actually were 911 Calls to PD that were totally missing on the wards reports There were a total of six incidents that were missing totally from your wards reports that were not that were actually on the PD reports In my it's just a concern because I can become a huge liability to city if there's I mean for Reporting these wards reports to the state. They got to be you know That's the whole discrepancy here is the accuracy of both reports one or the other I mean we went that's why when I went through Try to look at all these and wondering who makes The determination I wanted to round these times down because all the ones your wards reports that I have are just solid minutes There's no minutes and seconds like the PD who makes the decision to round the time up around the time down Again, I apologize deputy chief Butler is Out at one of the calls that we have going on tonight and he does Most of this information, but the rounding of the calls on the wards report if you look at all the numbers are rounded It's just a typical if it's below 30 seconds. It's round down if it's above 30 seconds. It's rounded up And that's where I I hope I was hoping that was the case But in a lot of cases I went through every single one and that's where you know pushing the button or computer Systems but to my knowledge and to my understanding that the police response times and I'm one dispatch records Are actually the legal documents that if any kind of a court battle would happen They would go to the police records not the wards reports. So just going through those a lot of these I mean even your good times that that were on the PD times were rounded up or rounded down When they could have been better on your wards reports They weren't but a majority of them were actually higher times that were rounded down And some of them were you know zero, you know one second response times and we discussed that as That was just no one reported on scene which overall obviously helps response times total response times But I mean just the concern on that is you know I know we talked about the CAD system becoming a lot easier around around the horn But short-term I mean we got to do find some better way to communicate between us at the fire department and the police department with their response times because You know now we're on TV for fire department response times And again a lot of this is is human error It's system error because we just do not have the computer systems in in place to accurately record these the ones where you're you're not seeing the times on your Run report from dispatch are the ones where we possibly were in a unit that did not have an MDC our backup units Do not have computers So that would not be logged that way if a dispatcher just missed it if we did if we failed to call in Due to operator error or the excitement of the call or whatever on those calls then They typically would go back and listen to the dispatch tape then the dispatcher would give them Over the telephone the time that it came in so it's not going to be logged on a hard copy a lot of times Okay, so I mean even with the words reports those the missing Incidents should be somewhere and put it on there. So gets when you submit it to the state level all incidents match up But the wards reports are All the calls that we send to our bill are Those go to wards also So if there's You know, I'm not aware of six calls that you're saying that you're you're seeing Numbers are those calls may have been coordinated that we never even went to the call They may have been calls that orange cross covered for us You know, I can't answer just cross checking with looking at them I don't have that information just cross checking with the PD records They were initial calls there was arrived time dispatch time and overall response time and with addresses So they weren't called off. So actually someone arrived at the time So I'm not just concerned provided that information you're looking at information that I don't have you gave me this But I don't have you didn't show me the calls that aren't showing up because I found that after you gave me reports Because I went through your reports cross-check the reports That's the reason Thank you And this is just anecdotal evidence I Serve two terms as chair of the public protection and safety And during that time period, I think we received one complaint on response time And and the public is not shy about complaining about response time received one complaint and that Related to a miscommunication at the dispatch level for an incident that dealt with Correct me if I'm wrong. It was a retirement home pick up It was a non-emergency transfer from one of the nursing homes But I hope I hope you would all the diversity get together to reconcile those numbers. I think that's valid questions And it just was my experience on that committee I expected more, you know complaints because that's just the nature of the business and That didn't happen. There was only one that I received. It was documented And there was a solid explanation. So if you guys can reconcile that that'd be terrific And just the discrepancy like I said, you know even in the word support that you gave me the whole this whole thing came about with the Last quarterly report that was submitted with the 20 calls over even and now the other thing too is just in your own In your own words reports with the rounding of times you reported 20 were over the six minutes and right in your reports There's 25. I mean it's not I mean five calls isn't a big deal But I mean just as trying to get as accurate as possible in all of our reporting systems We need to find some common ground and to get our numbers Accurate because if it's getting scrutinized you want to be covering your butt and again when cat RMS comes before the council I sure hope you vote for it because we won't be standing you're having this discussion He's on record of supporting that These are these these six calls in question that is six out of how many Well, which six I mean when you're talking about just you're talking about six six calls or six six Discrepancies out of how many no, there's 43 discrepancies if you want to go that far three discrepancies out of how many 43 But the six incidents that are missing are just with it a quarterly is 655 43 discrepancies out of how many six Speak mayor out of 655 calls for the first quarter of 2010 20 calls were above the six minute mark Is what the was on the last quarter report report I have thank you So where are you going with the question? I'm just wondering it You know you have six calls out of 655 655 No, I was just that not reported. That's liability. You said you don't report them I just wonder I just wonder where this conversation is going Are you just trying to embarrass the chief or are we actually going to get to something here because it seems it seems to me Okay, it seems to me That he's given an explanation that it is probably human error Okay, this is this is the this is not all done via computer This is done by human beings and I'm just wondering where this conversation is going All about thank you, mr. Chair And I hope the mayor isn't going to scold me like he just did all their diversity, but it's your committee I have a question from the greater Sheboygan committee report and we get as all their persons We get data from a lot of sources and we have to take them All and kind of put them all together and frame an opinion based on the totality of the information That reports not on the agenda this evening Right, but it's a public document and I don't even need the report if that's what you're concerned about So it has come to my attention chief and I don't know if it's credible or not So I'm going to ask you this question something about we don't with a failure of SFD to file response time data with the NF ir s Since 2006 and so I don't think we're doing that But someone has mentioned that to me and so I want to give you the chance to say that's a bunch of who we know That's actually true. Hasn't been done since It was not mandated until 2008 At that time the state mandated it and it had to be submitted electronically prior to that We were in compliance. We were doing it on carbon-less forms, which are all still sitting in the station all filled out at That time when the state mandated it to be submitted electronically We were told Pearl Phoenix was coming as a software program for the fire department that never happened There were about two or three other ones that we were told were coming that never happened In the meantime that was prior to me being selected as chief It was decided it did not make sense for the fire department to go out and spend I don't know how many tens of thousands of dollars to get the software programs to be in compliance When we kept being told that it was coming and hopefully Actually with a new EMS billing agency that program was included in that package for free So we thought by August we were going to be compliant There's been a delay in that So as soon as that is put in place or the cat RMS is put in place that'll fix that And does that put us at any risk not reporting to the state of the feds or wherever that goes to? Does that put us at any risk for losing any funding or anything like that? Okay? Thank you Thank You mr. Chairman of the mercy that was actually my question with the to my understanding that those nippers reports were kind of mandatory To receive any federal funding. No, not at all not to my knowledge Because we're not getting much federal funding so I don't think we're missing out if there's any grants that are given modern born Thank you chairman with all due respect to the mayor and chief Herman I believe a few meetings ago chief Herman You were very very critical of some orange cross response times and whether it's orange cross or any other private provider This council has a question and an alderman has a has the right to look at your response times and make sure That your response times are as good As you know what you're claiming them to be and I think alderman verse They made a very very good point in this litigious society that we're in we better make darn sure that your words reports are matching up with the 9-11 dispatchers because if it goes to court, it's the 9-11 dispatchers that create a huge Potential legal liability for us. Thank you And I don't have a problem with somebody raising that questions and when alderman verse he came in and we went through All the discrepancies. I thought that we had reconciled them these six new ones I'd be willing to look at and see what the problem is. I have no problem with that To be honest response times are the least of our problems right now And I guess I would defer to alderman Gisha who has been carrying one of our radios for the last month. There are five weeks The proof is in the pudding. It's there. I mean we're not we have good response times. We're very proud of those Yes, I have had the radio for for a couple weeks Actually, my wife has been listening into it more than I just so I can get a flavor of the type of calls and the how often there's two Ems's outs that are three and so forth and it actually drives me crazy, but she likes it All the bars Well, that brings up another point since all of me gives you had a radio How many other all of them had access to radios? I only have one extra and it was my Intent that after he added for a few weeks that we would pass it on to somebody You're welcome to have it immediately Put the names in a hat and draw it out Okay, chief. The question I have was brought up to me Are you familiar with B2 comp time? Yes, okay? Could you tell me? I've been led to believe that the fireman could either take these comp time and overtime Or they can add it on to the retirement program. Is that correct? That is incorrect incorrect B2 comp time must be taken in time off must be taken in time off. It cannot be added to the retirement program. No All right Now when they put this in a bank, when do they have to collect the comp time at the end of the year a year later or? When is it done? It's at the fire chief's discretion as to how long they hold that for or how many hours I allow them to build up The B2 comp time is given to employees. So I don't have to pay them time and a half Well, okay of overtime pay So Each fireman has the option of either taking it and pay or putting like money in the bank. Is that correct? That's correct. All right So then if then if we're paying overtime could those firemen that have comp time in the bank Couldn't we call them in? Comp time Alderman Bowers is time off not time that I can call them in Well Let's say they are taking their B2 comp time. Yeah to give the city's savings Uh-huh, they have the right to when I order somebody in for overtime They have a right to tell me and it's a law that I have to pay them time and a half Okay, we have given them an option of taking comp time to save the city over time dollars All right, typically they take that time off at a time of the year when we have manpower that allows it Are there any limits that a fireman may live outside the city like 10 miles 15 20 miles? The council set those limits. So we now have a gentleman or a firefighter living in want to walk And where want to walk Never heard of that city Mr. Chairman it we apparently have moved on from the original topic here Can I ask to file then our C number? 32 10 11 so we can get on to the other questions Motions and maiden and seconded to file the documents actually lit up for one last That's actually lit up first there. It's actually why I just kind of direct it to the mayor the whole reasoning behind the the dispatch times as I went back when a woman kill someone my mom I headed the coalition That basically took over in all of EMS responses and everything else now I got all their reports from two two thousand five two thousand six two seven which the only reason why I went back through these is because the at that time it was Orange Cross that had that had to Mark and coincide with every 911 call from the police department and any times that were not on here Any discrepancies there had they had to report back to the coalition with reports That was the whole basis behind my questioning is These reports and the responses that they had they had to go off of here And you're just going off a different report and that was what raised the question to begin with And also the compliance ratings Yes, we had we just said we talked that and talked about the 10% was actually less than that because of the computer You know between the two reports, but just compliance ratings for the hitting the 90% every every single month You know we went back went back through like I said 0506 and 07 and they had to Document everything when the police department arrived when the fire department arrived what Orange Cross arrived so I was just kind of wondering what the The lack of paperwork now, I guess it just makes it more easy You know easier for us to just go off of one report instead of reporting to you know, ppns now as What directed this whole question was because of those old coalition, which is no longer in existence So that was you know, maybe that's a clarifying question to the mayor and where this all came from May Thank You chairman just to clarify that we were at our meeting We were just going through the submit submitting the city of Sheboygan fire department's first quarter EMS quality assurance and quality improvement report for January 1 2010 through March 31st 2010 that's what we were just going through that report and and what didn't and we didn't I Mean we followed in and the report was given and we looked at it and and we approved it as it was yeah That's now just saying to question the coalition went off of police department times versus their own times Okay, so my understanding was also does warrant to my understanding so they have the same so was the coalition that was questioning the report correct All right, we've had a motion and a second to file RC or recommend filing RC 3 to 10 dash 11 Any other discussion on that motion? See no all in favor say aye. Aye. Chair votes aye opposed motion carries Next council agenda number 5-68 by strategic fiscal planning to whom is referred our own number 29 dash 10 dash 11 by the finance director treasurer Submitting the Sheboygan fire department ambulance service alternative scenarios and benchmarking analysis Recommends that the report of officer be accepted and placed on file and to accept solution D to keep five stations in ambulance We'll take this jointly with number C Council agenda number 5-37 by the city clerk submitting potential local transports market analysis and operational analysis based on city of Sheboygan Finance department alternative scenarios and benchmarking analysis report dated May 3rd 2010 Hanna just a just a quick question of clarification. I've gotten in front of me Taxpayer financial impact of operations scenario It looks to me like alternative B is actually the D is actually the second scenario my correct That's five stations with ambulance services and 73 firefighters. I Just want to make sure that this was the typo that we caught on council Yes, is that That's correct. That's the Excel You may have any comments time Is there a motion There's no motion right now. We're just dealing with the documents I'm 568 we're doing both 568 and 537 Okay, move to file 568 then mr. Chairman. There's a motion to file 568 second Send us back no recommendation Okay, with no recommendation So your motion is to Clarify for everybody file the document and make no recommendation to the full council I take it back mr. Chairman. That's not at all what I want. I'm sorry. I apologize. I removed my remove my second my motion I want us to have a long conversation about this. Okay, so but I'm not gonna move to approve it I'm not gonna move it. We recommend to approve it to ourselves if someone wants to make that motion I'd open that or you could open that up. We don't need a motion to discuss the document It's on the agenda so we can discuss it without a motion at this time Okay, but don't we need to Make a recommendation to ourselves eventually yes, but we don't need to we don't need a motion to discuss the documents Okay, so if you'd like to discuss it Okay, great. I'll start the bidding I Had a great conversation with the chief police this morning We had breakfast and he he helped me the frame something up for me that all of us struggle with and have for a long time and it's about the Challenge of separating the issue of pay and benefits from the city employees the human beings that receive those pay and benefits It's hard to have a frank honest talk about the numbers and how they affect our taxpayers without it sounding like we're mad at or don't Respect the city employees. So let me be clear our city employees are hard-working Americans that are dedicated to serving this city They are part of a compensation system That's older than most of them are that they didn't have a hand in creating They don't perpetuate And it's not their fault It's broken and that's not their fault. It isn't about them the human beings But we do have to have a conversation about the financial reward system that has become so uneven between the employees and The taxpayers that it's bred some level of public resentment toward public employees And that robs the employees of their dignity and that's not right It's made taxpayers so cynical that now a public employee sometimes is made to feel a little Disrespected and a little underappreciated and they've done nothing to deserve that It's the compensation system under which they operate that ought to be derided and and that helps me transition into what I want to talk about which is The luxury retirement programs that are available in the city of Sheboygan that are worthy. They're golden parachutes worthy of Point of order CEO. I believe that's the state of Wisconsin The retirement system is the Wisconsin retirement system. Yes, and that's the of Sheboygan. Thank you, mr. President And I'm gonna I'm gonna come around to that. I appreciate you pointing that out So our current city employees contribute nothing to their own retirement But when they retire if you're a If you're in fifty thousand dollars a year when you retire and that's what you retire on You will take home a million one point two five million dollars in cash over the remainder of your expected lifetime from the city and And if you retire at a senior level like a director You're very likely to take home two and a half million dollars in cash over the 25 years or so you will live And five hundred thousand dollars in medical benefits you will use for having contributed nothing except perhaps a little bit to your medical Care and so that is a very good deal and so that Every city employee is getting twice as much in paying benefits over their lifetime then really what they were kind of hired to get Because they contribute nothing to their own retirement and so getting back to what chief Domigalski helped me see this morning It's hard to have this conversation about the compensation and not Get caught up in in who we're talking about and I don't want that to be the issue But I want to illustrate why it seems unfair to the taxpayers These city employees would never do this Matt Walsh who's the the head of the police Union he would never go to my neighbor Joyce Fanus who's retired She's 80 years old and living on a fixed income But she worked her whole life and saved her money and she's living on that retirement Matt Walsh would never go Bang on her door. She lives on Broughton Drive never bang on her door and say Mrs. Fanus we just had a bunch of retirements from the police department and they didn't pay anything for their retirement And they've retired so now we got to start paying them and it's your turn and I need about 500 bucks We give that to me and and oh by the way, do you know Simon and Ellie Katchke? They're always out during the day doing USO stuff and I can't find them right now Well, they be home at night because I'll go get them at night or in the morning whenever it's better for them But they owe 500 bucks to He would never do that but the compensation system he operates under does exactly that they contribute nothing and they go to our retirees and say cough up your money to Support your own retirement and the retirement of our city employees and I was glad it's interesting that Well and Tom pitch is another great example. He takes great care of his body. He I see him at the YMCA all the time He's gonna live a long time after retirement And he would never go to my neighbor Pat Pat Kevin who lives at 4th in Ontario. He'd never knock on her door and say hey Pat You're gonna retire in a few years. I'm gonna retire in a few years I sure hope you're saving your pennies Because you're gonna pay for my retirement and your retirement. Are you doing that for me? He'd never do that, but the system he operates under and he's he's a president of his union he propagates that system and thirdly and lastly It was interesting to hear Chase talk about his family because that's important Chase Longmiller is a great dedicated servant served our country in the Air Force He would never come to my house and knock on my door and say all them about how you doing I need to talk to your two-year-old. I have a picture of my two-year-old again to help personalize this issue That's my two-year-old and I'm sure his is just as adorable. He would never say to my two-year-old. Hi Finley I'm fireman Chase and when you're done with college. I'm gonna want to retire in about 20 years I hope you're really paying attention in school today And I hope you get a really good education a great job because when you are buying your first home You're gonna be paying for my retirement as well as your daily expenses Because I want to retire about the time you're getting out of college He would never do that because he's an honorable guy and he'd probably say to my daughter Oh, and will you tell my kids? She's gonna have to pay my retirement too because I don't want to have to tell her that And by the way Will you go to a kinder care on the south side and tell all those two-year-olds that they're gonna be paying for my retirement that? I didn't want to contribute to and the state didn't make me contribute to let me put it that way So there's no dignity in that and there's no fairness in that these city employees contribute nothing to their own Retirement and Alderman Wongerman shared with me this morning He used to work In an environment where he paid half of his retirement. He contributed 7% city contributed 7% and that was a few 20 25 years ago he also worked in an environment where he paid 40% of his health care and Citizens paid 60% of his health care And so that's given the lens the perspective of time in 25 years That's why none of these directors can afford their employees anymore The reason we can't get work done is because city employees earn so much more now than they ever did and that's all sanctioned by the state And it's all part of a system that isn't the employee's fault, but it's a system that's there nonetheless And so finally mr. Chairman, and I appreciate the indulgence. Here's what I'm proposing tonight that would help with this document help get my vote on this document is that Let's restore the dignity back to the city employees so that citizens can look at them with pride because they're they're contributing to their Own future. Let's restore fairness to that compensation system, and I encourage our union leaders to lead that change I want you to go to your state bodies and demand that future Negotiations happen in public because it's because these negotiations happen behind closed doors that these things that don't really feel very good Can get passed everything else we do in city government happens in public Negotiations happen in private and it shouldn't be that way And someone has to be first and sheboygan should be first and this is going to take courage But I'm not talking the kind of courage it takes To stand in front of soldiers and protest the Vietnam War I'm not talking about the kind of courage it takes to sit in the front seat of a bus if you're black or a lunch counter If you're black, I'm not even talking that kind of courage. I'm not even talking the kind of courage it takes To walk into a burning building or come between a citizen and a guy with a gun you guys already have that courage I encourage you to have the courage to go to your state and say it's robbing us of our dignity We're losing face with our taxpayers and it's not fair to them And we want to be the city that turns that around and in those open Negotiations that you help create and if they say no way you can't do it I encourage you to come back to Sheboygan and do it anyway Do it anyway have that kind of courage and in those open negotiations. I encourage you to take us back to a time when city police Worked what was it you told me Alderman Wongam and city employees used to work fire used to work Six on three off six on two off and now they're down to five on three off So they're working one less day every every cycle than they did 20 years ago That's why we keep that's why the directors can't get anything done because it can't afford the employees They've got so I would urge and I've got I've got the contact information for the the union leaders here I figure if our number is out in the public I think that the union leaders numbers ought to be able to be contacted by the citizens So if you think what I'm saying is a good idea citizens of Sheboygan I encourage you to reach out to the union presidents and tell them to restore dignity to our city employees and fairness to the compensation system Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank you all in bulk. I Asked the alderman and the committee to please Direct the comments to the committee It's proper to quorum for the committees to discuss amongst ourselves We'll do Next in order this is point of order I had to have Alderman Hammond Actually Alderman born sorry. Thank you. Thank you, mr. Chairman Chief I got a question on the information that was released at Release that money nights council meeting as an addendum to the article of the The resolution that Alderman Hanna brought in and I'm having trouble locating it right here But I guess my question is The funding that you found in your budget last Thursday or whenever that meeting took place If you would have looked in March for that funding in your budget Was it there then or a good portion of it there then a good portion of it was there But because in March when we were talking about this we were talking of a May 1st hiring date Because we are now looking at July or August the expense is much less So hence the money is there Okay, I guess my follow-up question then is if there was money in your budget Without it without a budget transfer and we we were not made aware of this money in your budget that you found Until last Monday night if there was money in your budget to carry us over and hopefully my god We'd have made a decision on what we were going to do with hiring your people by this time But I guess my question is if there was money in your budget Why did you check? Why did you close station five? Why didn't you use some of that money to keep that station open longer and hopefully we would have made a decision by this time? But I have a real problem When there's money in your budget That you did not keep that fire station open Pretty soon if if we can continue with the rolling blackouts myself Alderman Heidemann And Alderman Rindfleisch and Alderman Hanna all of the phone calls we're getting are going to shift over to the north side but It wasn't necessary because of the money that you had in that in your existing budget to close that station and And you know, I you know with all due respect I hope that wasn't a political decision to stir up to stir up things on the south side You should have not have closed that station because you had money to keep it open And I resent it very strongly that you closed that station because us Alderman are the one that are hearing about it. Thank you First of all At a committee meeting you raised your hand and said go ahead and close my station I voted to keep I voted I voted I voted keep it open Find the record Go ahead. I'm sorry. It's not proper decor. I'm here. Please and allow people to speak at one at a time Secondly part of the savings that is now in my budget That allows us to be able to hire either in July or August was attained by closing that station There's savings that went back into my budget in the salaries account because I'm not paying people that are there That is now available Secondly all the monies that are available are in the salary account. They're not in the overtime account if I were to Pay it over time To keep that station open. It would have it wouldn't have lasted as long as straight salary time It's eating up at time and a half So that's the reason it was closed Alderman Hanna. Well, thank you I'm gonna stand up to I don't like to sit down I agree 100% With all of them back. I He think he is dead on That the stranglehold that WRS has on us Is the dilemma And I do challenge all the unions in future negotiations To look at making a significant contribution to WRS and I do ask that Councilman, please communicate this with our state legislators This is a stranglehold This is why if you look at every single department with with revenues and expenditures very quickly That line turns ugly and that line turns ugly for the most part because of the retirement benefits There's incidental stuff going on, but it's noise compared to the contribution of the WRS my only Disagreement with Alderman Bough Is the life expectancy of Of the head of the DPW Despite going to the YMCA. I don't think you can actually Make that assumption Thank you. Oh Thank you. I think we can all stipulate that the state system with Mediation arbitration and the WRS is broskin and stink and stinks. I don't need to Talk about mr. Long Miller's children or any that way? I think we can all stipulate from the taxpayer standpoint It's rotten and I think actually it all do respect Alderman Bough I think I know it's a little more rotten than you do I Spent a hundred and fifty hours in negotiations this pet last time around if others had a had a problem with doing this they were welcome to do that too they chose not to and And and Alderperson Kittleson spent a great deal of time in those negotiations I don't enjoy and and Alderperson height a minute the very end as well when he became chairman of salary and grievance it stinks and And any change you're gonna see just so the public understands the reality of the situation because after a hundred and fifty hours of Screaming in your pillow in the middle of the night after sitting in those meetings you get educated and it's not a pretty education It's it's an education to How naive we all are when we step into those negotiations myself included and I think it is Although the discussion was to not make it personal I think it became Actually down to the individual personalized There is not an employee a public employee in the state of Wisconsin with the exception of Milwaukee County That pays a nickel into wrs I know it has to start somewhere. I would love for it to start here But that's where the naive part comes in and I'm talking about myself in those negotiations So if anybody doesn't think that was brought up and talked about during those times You're wrong if However, you then have to say you're gonna do it anyway because we're gonna put it in our final proposal best and final offer After a hundred and fifty hours of negotiations, which took me away from my family, too Some of the family talks that you're talking about and you're gonna say this is gonna be our best and final Let's go to mediation arbitration which is phase two which hasn't been talked about here And that is an arbitrator says here's the offer from the city. Here's the offer from the union can't meld them together Sorry, the only props I have I don't have family photos Can't meld them together You got to pick one or the other and because you don't have a comparable and I'm not just talking about one comparable You have to have a wave of comparables We would lose and we would pay through the nose in that contract. We would lose big it's just the way it is and and The answer to it Lies in Madison Tommy Thompson removed WRS contributions as some sort of deal that was made We didn't bargain it away. It was taken away from us by the state of Wisconsin The only way you're gonna get it back is that same path I assume we've all contacted our state legislatures on it. I have Sometimes at three o'clock in the morning when I was thinking about the negotiations from the previous day having to be in them By eight o'clock the next morning. It gives you a little time to play on the computer. I sent it off to him There's an election time coming up. It's a great time to bring it up. I I don't know what more to say except that Some of the individuals whether they're union heads or whatever and believe me we had very spirited conversations And it is in closed session, but I'll tell you what's not in closed session. We had a mediation. We had a Labor grievance mediation two weeks ago It was very public. I Was the only alderman there through the whole time Those are very public come to it roll up the sleeves get involved do it, but We could have talked to we were blue in the face about we want a 50% contribution a 20% contribution a nickel The reality was you weren't going to go any works in how many comps and I'm not talking about one comp the city of Sheboygan But I do believe this I do believe that The unions in the next round now. I'm just talking about city I'm talking statewide in the next round of negotiations. You will see in a contribution a Wave of that thought come through the state of Wisconsin I have some reason to believe that and I do believe it that's going to be the case But we'll let wave comes it's going to be a trickle you're going to talk about one and a half percent You're going to talk about incrementalism because that's how we got to this point by the way is incrementalism to go from zero From 50% way back when to zero now back to 50% will take longer than it took to get to zero That's the reality and if we're talking about budget issues of today. We can't bank on having The Sheboygan union stand up and do that. It's just I'd love it. Don't get me wrong. I'd love it It's just not reality and we have a budget to balance by December 31st this year And I think it's great education and all that kind of stuff But people must understand the process the mediation arbitration process and the inference Planned or not or intended or not that maybe we didn't do a good job in negotiations I I guess I take a little offense at that based on on the playing field that's across the state of Wisconsin We have Alderman born next to you just do it, please just to follow up chief And follow up what I had said before with this additional The budget are you prepared to open up station number five in a couple days? Your discretion. It's your it's your budget. It doesn't take a budget transfer I believe are you prepared to open up the station in the interim period until we can get something done here? No, I don't have the people unless you approve the hiring of four people. I need people to put in the station What about paying some of your existing people over time out of this money you just found to keep to get it open? It's Instead of getting Five months of keeping the station open that'll get you three Well, we may be able to come to an agreement here Hopefully that get you your four people if there's some things that go along with that But the calls I'm getting from this from my constituents, and I'm sure the other Southside Alderman is they want that station open And if you've got the money to do it I would appreciate it if you do it on an interim basis Even if you have to pay some overtime and hopefully we'll make a decision Monday night if the mayor calls the meeting or the next council meeting that We're going to make a decision on getting you the four people But we're going to have to come an agreement to that of course with maybe some stipulations on how we can do that It's going to have to be a partnership with everybody involved But I would like that station open if you can do it and again, it's your discretion. It's your money in the budget It's not a budget transfer So I think the citizens over in my district and Alderman Rindfleisch district district and Heidem in the Hammond Would like to get that station open even if we can do it on an interim basis and hopefully eventually get you the people But I'd like to get it open Trust me. There's nobody that wants that station open more than I do If I do that I Don't have the money if you decide in a month to hire the four people then it then it will take a budget transfer You might have the votes for it I you know I you know depending on depending on depending on what we can agree upon and but again It's going to have to be a partnership chief I would vote to hire Four people five people right now if we have and I don't want to negotiate contracts here But if this was a partnership with the union where we got a long term not Band-aid concessions for one year to fund these people as we go forward I'd hire him in a heartbeat And I I agree you're talking about not having band-aid fixes That's what opening the station tomorrow with overtime is that's a band-aid fix I would prefer to look long-term if you look at the proposals. I put out It's not how do we fund those four people for the rest of this year I've looked in the next year. How do we fund it next year? I? Can't look at okay Let's open it up next Monday, and everything's fine again, and then everybody forgets about this This is long-term planning. We have to do here, and I get and fixing Short-term fixes with overtime is not the answer you do not get the bang for the dollar I guess my fear chief was is that if we would have gone to hire We would have agreed to hire the four people the discussion would have been over to about long-term fixes That was my fear not in my book. I wouldn't have been I mean I agree with Alderman bulk also there's a problem with the Wisconsin retirement system I've been chastised for the contracts. I negotiated as union president. I'm proud of what I did as union president I was a good union president now. I'm on the other side I've made contacts with people in the state that I had before to try to fix this problem They realize it also, but it takes time and the place to fix it is not here Grandstanding it's in negotiation rooms. Is it at contract opening time? Yes Maybe it is in between that time because we've got a problem now, but that's the way you fix it by sitting down as Intelligent human beings and trying and identifying the problem and coming up with a solution amongst us Everybody realizes there's a problem. We need to fix it I'll be ours Yes, I concur with all men books thinking here Alderman gish is there anything in the state constitution not the Constitution, but what Tommy Thompson negotiated can the Workers contribute upon themselves. Is there anything that would limit them to not contribute to their pension? I have no idea so they Technically they could I know I know nothing about the contractual details or the statutory details of the Wisconsin retirement service No, it's possible that they could do that. No, I'm not saying it's possible. I'm saying I don't know anything about If they want to do it they could do it Alderman Hammond You have the information I'm sorry I'm just going up by the lights. I'll yield you can go did you Yeah, so I'm just going in the order of the lights go through So who's up and unless though you happen to be Alderman claw units. I think that's actually Hammond. So You're up you're actually you're Alderman born on this board I'm I'm height-o-ing. Yeah, I'm flattered. He's not even here. I Guess I'd just like to make a comment and I agree with many of the comments that were made today by alderman bow Golderman born, but really we have two issues here We have a short-term issue and a long-term issue the short-term issue is we've got half of the city unprotected right now Okay, you've got three fire departments in the north side One fire department that takes care of the central city and the entire south side, which is divided by a railroad That at one any point can bring up to 75 cars through and block off from the power plant all the way past 18th Street. I Have a problem with that the long-term Challenge we face is what do we do with the fire department going forward? The comment keeps being made if we hire these four firefighters that We're stuck with them for life I'll give you that but in the next five years. We have slated 13 firefighters that are going to probably retire Don't quote me on that number. Some might work a little longer May have a few more retirement. So this conversation is going to come up over and over about staffing levels at the Sheboygan fire department This is not done in a vacuum in an absolute We need to look at this as two separate issues and the number one issue is get the protection needed on the Cell side that the taxpayers deserve and have paid for The second issue is a council. We need to start stepping up and showing some leadership and put together along with the chief a Plan of what this fire department is going to look like five years from now Okay, thank you The next flashing lights Alderman Hanna. Thank you. I concur with the With Alderman Hammond that this gets broken down into a short-term and long-term situation but I want to publicly Recognize that the fire department next year is willing to get back their raises to help But I do challenge them when contract negotiations come out. I challenge them to take the lead I'm making contributions to the WRS. I challenge them to set the standard in the state And and be one of the first unions that steps up and and challenges that Don and I work in a system where we fund a hundred percent of our retirement We're out of that same world that that Alderman Gaukes out of in the same world that All the person born was out of and and most of us are So I just I'd like this to be short-term and long-term. I Think that's important. I certainly hope that the fireman union Takes the lead sets the standard. I'd love to be recognized as the first city that did this They all have Now I have two lights flashing a one for Alderman born one for bulk, but bulk is the second one over All the month we are are you in? No, okay, so I'm gonna go with Alderman bulk. It's you It's actually you on this thing Social situations and in public situations are saying this city has no idea the debt it owes to those two gentlemen I've been very public as much as I can be as one person saying that They have done things in the past two or three years that go above and beyond anything That I have seen anyone else do myself included. So let me Just do as much as I can right now to say please don't infer anything about how you handle those negotiations from my comments at all You made a heroic effort and you stuck with it and you saw it turn to conclusion and you got some good outcomes My my conversation tonight my long-winded conversation has nothing to do with you and your leadership Now your comments you're very gentle admonition that I may be naive and uninformed on things I appreciate the gentleness I was oh well well, okay And so I'm just gonna say that if you were trying to gently scold me I appreciate it for doing it gently and to I'll admit I would call it naive I would call it idealistic and at some point we have to take Principled stands not that you weren't taking a principal stand, but that great change that is necessary in this world Doesn't happen when we do short-term things forever at some point We have to stand up against great change and say now is the time and I am the one and I have ten or twelve months Left to serve as an older person and I feel compelled that this is the cause of my next ten or eleven months I will oppose anything that has to do with Promoting the long-term system, and I know it's controlled at the state, but here's Here's what I'm going with that. I am done Making my making Joyce Fannis and Pat Kevin and Simon and Ellie Katski bow down to the tyranny that Madison has put on us I'm done. I don't have the stomach board anymore And so Empathize with all the person Hammond's comments if I were an older person on the south side He's got direct constituents to manage. Of course. I'd be talking about opening up that south side But we protected this city without a south side Without a south side station For a long time. So I Not sure I totally agree with the fact that we're endangering half the city by not voting for four for firepersons And I don't think that we've ever made great change in this country by continuing to put Band-aids over things that isolate people from the effect of the long-term Issue and in this case the long-term issue is that Onerous pay and compensation system and by covering it over by hiring four more people to band-aid it right now That insulates our taxpayers from the pain They should be feeling they need to feel the pain of of wrestling. It'll get more people engaged. It'll get more people to To grievance meetings where someone brings a great a $40 grievance Somebody brings a $40 grievance to salary and grievance and cost thousands of city dollars to gripe a $40 grievance And until the citizens feel that pain They're not going to get involved and come to those kind of committee meetings And they're not going to write Terry and Joe in Madison and they're not going to vote for people who will go to Madison in Washington in November and change this and so I appreciate All of what President Gisha said I can only do what my conscience calls on me to do for my next ten months And that is to oppose anything that supports the continuation of a system that I think Takes the dignity away from our city employees and is unfair to our taxpayers Like what I missed we Hiring there was discussion here earlier with the police chief hiring three policemen with that file would your commitment also follow through to hiring policemen Absolutely, just check Thank You mr. Chairman all in born are you in? I do have something but I didn't have the right Somebody on this side of the room been punched in outside of you. You're next on it. I believe that for the mayor You know Let's not forget while we're here to try and find ways To lower our budget find it somewhere else. I have put in countless endless hours researching Outside of Wisconsin. Okay. I have spoke to about 15 to 18 different fire chiefs across the nation And I have just a short list of some of the communities that have Larger square mileage more population less firefighters more average or more total incident calls and about the same Average response time first big one here is color in Township, Ohio. They have 44 square miles They have 67,000 people in a population. Okay, they have 53 full-time firefighters and actually have 110 part-time Firefighters they also have the EMS as well. Okay, they have the ambulance service Last year they have five stations same as us. They had 9,195 calls. Okay, and their average response time is Five five minutes 21 seconds. Okay, Dearborn Heights, Michigan closest to us as we can get 13 square miles 59,000 people They have 51 full-time firefighter paramedics. They have three fire stations. They responded to 6,200 6,299 calls and their average response time is four minutes and 46 seconds Loveland, Colorado 31 square miles 62,000 population 58 full-time firefighters and 80 volunteers they respond from four stations They have 5,513 calls last year with the average response time of five minutes 19 seconds Wyoming, Michigan 25 square miles 70,000 population. This is an extreme I wouldn't compare to but I wanted to put it on here They have 24 full-time firefighters and 27 paid on call. They have three fire stations and responded to 5,109 calls with an average response time Listen to this one five minutes nine seconds with those 24 firefighters Eden Prairie, Minnesota I won't use that. That's too many volunteers West Des Moines, Iowa 34 square miles 58,000 people 45 full-time firefighters Four fire stations and this is close to our response to total incidents 2,930 and their average response times 519 Maple Grove, Minnesota and all these fire chiefs. I spent a lot of time on a phone with Many conversations with them actually over time, but Maple Grove, Minnesota 36 square miles 64,000 people They only have four full-time firefighters. They have 83 paid on call firefighters They have five fire stations their average granite. They only did fire. They had 880 structure fires, but their average response time was five minutes and 21 seconds and here's one I had to put in here Boulder, Colorado because of the population density, okay They have 24 square miles twice our size, but more than twice their population They have over a hundred and four thousand people in that time in that city They have a hundred and four full-time firefighters and they have seven stations, but they also went on 9,730 calls and still their average response times five minutes 21 seconds. So looking at these this is just a handful I wanted to put out is What they're not putting their public at their public safety at risk. They haven't had any concerns people aren't dying babies aren't burning So why can't we look outside the box to try and fix? The long-term plan or actually lack of long-term plan the city has We need to look outside to try and find ways and not add more burden to us try and relieve some of the burden and look outside I mean, it's just a simple question. That's why we're here tonight is to try and find solutions How do they do it? I asked everyone's fire chiefs if I could sponsor a trip for them to come here and talk and they all said sure They'll vacation to Shibuya, Wisconsin, but I mean, this is just something we need to look at these are these are facts You can't argue with the facts. This is what's done across the nation I didn't want to do the East Coast because they go by private fire departments So if you look at the East Coast, let's not even compare to that We're not going there, but these are places in the Midwest that do it day in and day out and there's not a huge safety Concern, so how can we compare and get to what they're going? That's where the city needs to go Again without being provided that information prior to this meeting. I could have done a little research on it I am familiar with about half of those cities that you mentioned In the ones that I'm familiar with They are the complete opposite of Shibuygan and that they are a suburb of a larger city and that They have available to them full-time fire departments to respond right away to help them where we are the opposite They better comparison to some of those cities would be the town of Shibuygan that has us right next door to them In regards to the population density on a lot of those that I looked at where they're they cover way more Square miles than what we do and the population is similar. Maybe a little bit more maybe a little bit less That's also similar to the town of Shibuygan in that They have one-acre Suburb type lots. They don't have Superior Avenue or the house where you can reach out and touch your neighbor Where you're worried about an exposure. They don't have the business community like We have downtown where you have buildings right next to each other I don't know what their industry base is a lot of suburbs tend not to have industrial parks so without researching that You know, it's hard for me to comment on that if you do look at I think was scenario e whatever the three stations was that's a paid-on call scenario that's in there for you to look at Okay Actually, I did do the research on the population density and some of those and also in Shibuygan You also got to remember one household take me with five children my household seven people You're going to population density within those close parameters is fine But the every single one of these also has industrial parks has big downtown's you look at Dearborn Heights Yeah, you're right. That's a suburb. Well, they also have one of the Midwest national museums in Dearborn Heights I mean these all these communities here have more than what we have they do twice what we do with less That's what I was just looking at and how can they do it? Respond more do more have more even their their tax base is more with less their budgets are all less than ours, too By the way, I actually one of those is higher You're right bolder. You're right The ones that I've called and researched on that list Started out as volunteer departments and are moving our way because they can't get enough volunteer firefighters because of their volume of calls So it's not like they were a paid department and looking to go the other way They're actually coming this way because as they grow sure and within the state of Wisconsin La Crosse right now Yeah, just come to my knowledge that they're actually going to a hundred percent volunteer fire service That is what's coming up in La Crosse right now. Yeah, that is not that is not It's been looked at but that's not what's happening Very well, thank you, mr. Chairman You know, I think the thing we need to look at here this evening is you know, this this issue will not be solved in the next month Okay, we have Alderman Boren. We have Alderman Hammond Wanting that Southside fire station open. I believe that the council needs to look at The short-term fix and it is only a short-term fix believe me But also the council needs to be dedicated to finding a long-term solution if you look at the numbers in scenario D was it keeping the opening five stations and keeping the ambulance and then possibly expanding the ambulance service That gets us through This year the rest of 2010 and the gap is not that wide in 2011 Especially if the union gives back that one and a half percent and one and a half percent That gives 18 months To figure out what that long-term solution is 18 months the council will have 18 months to come up with a solution of which We will come up with a solution A long-term solution not just a band-aid fix doing this is on its own it is a band-aid. That's all it is it's a band-aid But We cannot continue To debate an issue and take no action The council can't do that. I mean you guys can't do that. We've there's got to be action taken Um, I can tell you as the mayor and I will be the mayor for the next 18 months Um, we will come up with a solution in the next 18 months a viable long-term economic solution for the fire department But in order to do that we have to at least know where we're at today In debating the subject to death Doesn't solve the short-term problem. So I believe the council needs to make a decision Um, if you're not going to get anybody buying into wrs Uh in the next couple months It's not going to happen. It's not reality as alderman gisha said president gisha In the long term, uh, I think the entire model needs to be looked at it does obviously because it's not economically viable for the long term For the next 18 months It can be a band-aid Get the fire stations open Keep the ambulance operating for the next 18 months gives us 18 months to figure out a solution a long-term economically viable solution That's all I have to say. Thank you I'd like to cut that to 12 months because I want corey to be part of the Final solution. So let's keep it a 12 month. No, if you're allowed to use final solution, that's not a good term there Five five stations. I'm going to make a recommendation Uh that we keep we go with five stations in the ambulance service Who's 73 firefighters? Although I'm born, you're right. It's a band-aid Um And we could we could argue to death but the people on the south side Need protection it rolls up to my district and all the person bowers district next Um, so I'm going to put forward a motion. I so certainly hope somebody will second it second Clarify the motion is to approve scenario d which is to keep the five stations Um and the ambulance service I believe is Part of the solution according to the report. Is that correct? That's correct. Yeah We'll take any action on the document 537 to file As well I'm sorry. Are we ready for discussion on the motion? Oh, we need a second on that. I'm sorry. Oh, I didn't get I thought we did get one Motions are made in second. Absolutely. Okay. Um, we have people punched in from the previous discussions I'm going to clear the board punch in if you want to talk about the motion at this time Mr. Chairman if I could add before you begin discussion. Yes, good Uh, one of the comments that was made before is that we survived a long time without that fifth fire station on the south side We survived that time That was during the period when we had 20 more firefighters There were eight firefighters and two fire apparatus in that fire station now. There are four firefighters there So there is a definite Reduction in the amount of protection that is there now compared to what was there prior to that station being built When we built that station number five, we didn't hire any additional people What we really did was they recognized that we do have too many firefighters on the north side compared to the south And we moved chief full south chief if I can clarify you only have four firefighters at the mead avenue fire stations Which is it? Yes Okay, I have cleared the board so discussion on the Motion at the other comment. I'd like to make is if you read my operational analysis If scenario c with four stations is the one that you do like Scenario d gets you there in the short term Okay, Alderman Ratke Yeah, I'm just curious that we're talking short term and long term here, but it seems to me like The item b here that we're voting on is a long term solution versus a short term solution Am I incorrect? I'm just asking Alderman Ratke The average amount of retires we have every year is three So when people say, you know, if we hire these three people or these four people We have them for 30 years or 25 years or whatever. That's true. You maybe have that body, but you have that opportunity to Reduce staff at a later time through attrition Due to the fact that we have three retires a year on an average ongoing basis Do you follow up? Yeah, just a just a follow. I'm sorry, Alderman Hannah. I I misspoke. It's actually over here I did I did I didn't look down and there was a red light It was a ham and I didn't punch in I guess I think I think it's me Um, I I thought you were client. I used to I used to be over there I did I used to move I used to sit on the end last council year now I moved here, but the board hasn't been changed yet, so All right, then I shall be warned in Europe. Thank you very much In discussion of the motion, I just want to share with you an email that I got from former director terry hanson On monday morning at 6 21 a.m Uh, he said I just wanted you both and I was cc'd on this email that went to uh, alderman bowell I just wanted you both I just wanted you both to be aware That the resolution that that has been submitted for tonight's in regards to the firefighters Does not have any financial component to the resolution and then in parentheses he says last I saw If I were still there, I would express the importance of knowing What needs to be changed in the budget this year To accommodate the firefighters In addition in six months you may or may not be able to afford having the same four firefighters on the payroll Please talk to nancy On the finance department's take on the resolution if there should be a budget amendment on the resolution Otherwise there could be the possibility of authorizing the hiring But not being able to fund the positions and then again in parentheses He says which has happened in the past with labor Negotiation services, so I just wanted to pass that along to you that are and I guess I would share the concern too again Before talking about band-aids Authorizing to hire these four firefighters for the rest of the year And I think the the budget deficit for next year Conservatively has been thrown around at 1.2 million dollars in talking with nancy bus A couple of days ago it could be potentially much worse than that. So my concern would be Hiring the four people And then not being and then having to lay them off in january and then this is again. I think a reason why We have to in the next couple months before the end of the year Try to come to some agreement with our bargaining unit On concessions on how we're going to be able to afford these four firefighters next year and in the coming years and I think that's very important We have to be able to afford them next year in the next few years after that If we're going to hire them now, so that's The take I got from Former finance directors email and I'm just passing it along and I did sit down with nancy on I believe it was monday At some time during that day and she did agree that the dollars are in the budget To fund it through the end of the year next year And I don't have that document. It's not a great case here six hundred dollars Yeah, we're short Her figures were a little bit different than mine, but it was somewhere between ten thousand and forty thousand dollars short But I did not include in the firefighters offer of Uh 90 to 100 thousand whatever that amount is into that amount Alderman rindfleisch if I could just comment on that Uh if tell me if I'm right on this chief if the if the union has agreed to give back the one and a half and a one and a half Which is three But on the other hand Next year They're they're going to be reducing their contribution to the health insurance from the current 12 down to 10 Uh, I guess that's a net of one, right? Actually, I didn't include the 79 thousand dollars that they gave back this year as a two percent Um I did not include that and I didn't include their offer of next year Because they're getting a raise next year. They're just giving it back. So that's why I did not include that In my calculations and Nancy agreed that that was correct So that's what that would that's what it would net out by them Paying less for their health insurance next year. It still nets out to the figure you had. What was it again? 79,000 79,000 even though they're going to be paying less for their health insurance next year that 79,000 is accurate That was What director hansson had given me what their concession was in the contract negotiations this year on the health insurance We haven't touched that money But I was using that money in next year to help fund the four people But I did not use This most recent offer that uh, they put forward because it hasn't been enacted on at all Hold on hannah You were punched in all the way hannah They mean to okay Can I thank you mr. Chairman with all the buttons? We were given these new These sheets chief just you know just before the meeting here that when these were these scenarios were sent to us And and looking this Can you do a little explanation here because I think We're looking at three hires now rather than four. Am I no actually we're we're looking at four hires, but One is the person that retired on uh mace six that that money as it was funded and is in the 2010 budget Okay, but it's still account for that in in 2011 and you did sit with nancy and put these together These numbers that I emailed to everybody and if anybody did not get it. I have a hard copies of it I put that this together with nancy this afternoon. Okay to try to show you what the Impact to the taxpayer is for each scenario Okay Thank you Thank you chairman uh chief herman In the budget there was a 70 personnel we voted on 70 personnel in the budget And there's 69 if we Hired the one to go back to the budget of 70 And with the half a million dollar pumper truck, which is replacing three How far are how far will we get with basically The rescue pumper concept and I'm glad you brought that up because I should have mentioned that in my first Time I was up here. That's what allowed us to go from the 77 personnel that we had last year Down to the 73 that we need to keep The five fire stations open we deleted one staff member and by purchasing that rescue pumper allowed us to to not rehire three more people and save those employee costs for forever but now with lifting the hiring freeze and hiring hiring four We'll have 73 correct and then another three is actually We're almost up to No, we'll have if you Hiring the four it will have 73 Which is enough to keep the five stations open Thank you, mr. Chairman just a question I really thought we're talking about band-aids and long-term short term and when I saw the The strategic fiscal planning stuff first on the agenda, mr. President I wondered if maybe there wasn't something going on that you guys were going to present as part of that Uh as part of hey, hey, here's the long-term picture Here's why you should believe in the short term because here's what we're looking at So I wanted to give you a chance that didn't seem to come up during there But I wanted to give you a chance to talk about is there any reason to hope That there might be some different things coming long term Well, I appreciate you're asking me However, I'm not the chairman of strategic fiscal planning alderman hannah is and if he could speak to that I would appreciate it So, okay Now I buzzed Some of the cities that alderman versi brought up and I won't reveal which ones Our mayor isn't quite close contact with He will be visiting some of those cities. He is going to help push this forward I hope I'm not breaching any confidence, but he's going to push this forward With some long-term solutions So he's getting out there and he's talking to the right people So as a as an answer Yes, and my goal is before you leave in april Yes, if I be and that's why I say Short-term long-term You know short term is now short term is the band-aid long term We need a we're going to need a different model obviously Then we're then we presently have and I believe it's something that we need to look at something that can be done over time Something that can be done through attrition That basically I think we need to to Look elsewhere and think out of the box and then that's why I can you know, which I didn't expect alderman hannah to I do have One excursion plan to minnesota to check out some Different operations, uh, which will be happening here in the next couple of weeks If I could follow up in the comment from alderman bowie Is from the strategic fiscal planning standpoint, uh I don't like it and I think it's kind of ugly, but I think it's really necessary I've never been shy about removing city of shabuagan employees I've personally had my name on documents that has about 40 of them on the street right now Proud because it was necessary not proud from a human standpoint If any of those and strategic fiscal planning has committed to having this done before your auto office assuming you're going to be out of office And if those scenarios Are taxpayer friendly Logistically acceptable to some level of six minute I'm not interested in 12 minute response times. I'm not interested in eight minutes personally I'm interested around the five to six mark, which I think was some of the most of the benchmarks of alderman versi Uh, whatever plan that comes out of there if that means less bodies or a different configuration of services I would vote for it regardless So the once you plug it in it's there for life. I can't speak for anybody but myself but I think I have a history of doing the opposite Alderman vorn Thank you, mr. Chairman again I guess I'm getting to the point where I'm getting closer to voting for this Whatever we vote on tonight Is of course, it's going to have to be approved by the council whenever our next council meeting is Mayor chooses to have one next monday or the following monday But I it would make it a lot easier for me to vote for this The short term thing and then looking into next year and again I'm not here to negotiate contracts But it certainly would be nice if the union would consider that additional two percent payment in in next year's contract For me that would make it a lot more viable and help you deal help us deal with that 90 000 bucks You're talking about chiefs. So, you know by the time our next council meeting comes about If the if our our labor partners would would want to consider doing that At least from my standpoint it would make it easier for me to vote for that So if we could have some kind of a letter from our bargaining unit that they would that they would do that next year It would make it a lot easier for me. So i'm just throwing that out there All right, all the lights are off. There is a motion on the floor in a second to prove to approve the recommendation to ourselves as full council Of the solution to keep the five stations in animal and service I'd like to offer an amendment I would like to amend it to say to add Continued upon receipt of letter from the bargaining unit entered into as a council document regarding Regarding concessions That gives it an opening alderman borne if the letter that we have doesn't include what you suggested for instance That they have that time period to do and then we actually have it then coming in as a physical document It should come in any way and be tied together. I think even if the one that's there Is is is that on that on that thank you for the amendment if you need a second I'll second it But I that wouldn't I think that would make it comfortable enough for me to support this tonight But I want to see the letter before I vote positive finally At the council meeting whatever that is and I'm not stating what the letter has to be in that letter That'll have to be time for review right for all alderman at that time before they make their vote We have an amendment and a second any discussion on the amendment um Alderman Bowers discussion on the amendment No, all I want to know is we're still including the ambulance That's part of the recommendation right now the ambulance. It's part of the recommendation right now Yes, sir. All right Okay, any discussion on the amendment? All in favor of that amendment say aye. Aye Chair votes aye opposed motion carries Need a motion to put to recommend the To ourselves the amended version I move to oh, sorry. Was there a hand? Yeah, I accept the apparently amendment What else do you need from we need a motion to um, I would make a motion To approve as amended stations with the ambulance 73 firefighters With a letter of concession Uh delivered to us before we make the final vote of council Is that acceptable it's acceptable to me Is there a second? Motion made second any discussion on the motion? It's me this time Alderman Hammond just going to start waving instead of hitting the button I would also like to add an amendment to this that we set a timeline for Whatever committee or the mayor or somebody to come back to us with a long-term solution Whether we said at the 1231 deadline. I guess that's up for discussion But I would like to have a hard fast deadline when somebody will be coming back or ppns Strategic fiscal plan wherever it is. We'll come back to this This group or to the council with a solution or with a recommendation for a solution Mr. Chairman if we if we can set that at 1231 that would be great by the end of the year Because I mean this is this is nothing that's going to be obviously decided overnight But I think we can have a good solid plan and something that Will be agreeable to everybody involved being being the fire department and and the council by the end of the year Is there a second today second? Okay, motion made in second to amend Our recommendation to ourselves to include a deadline of 1231 Any discussion on that amendment? You're on the moment or for discussion It's I just wanted to mention that if it's if it's logistically possible mayor when you go on your field trips to the city I think you should include the chief with them on those visits if you can because it would be good to have the professional's Opinion on what he thinks is going on in those towns And another thing that I think would be appropriate if it is appropriate And I have no way of knowing and that maybe would be to invite mr. Longwheeler to go along because he's going to eventually have to have some buy-in in this also So that's just food for thought mayor Uh, I appreciate that and uh, I'll take that under consideration May I ask a question please all right We're is this contingent upon receipt of a letter regarding concessions. Is that my understanding? All right I mean that they're just a letter regarding concessions I would like to keep that my point was to keep that generic so that additional conversations can take place Just to keep it generic so everyone we understand that it's just a generic letter regarding concessions Right, okay The letter to be specific. I I just didn't want to say what the concessions would be that's not our decision Right, right, but I hinted Real subtle discussion on the amendment Hannah No, I was going to make I was going to Amend my original motion. We need to vote on the amendment first to with the deadline Any discussion on the amendment? The only thing I guess I would add to that is What committee would be subject to bringing that back to the council? Would it be strategic fiscal planning or ppns? So not public works? You can if I have a late agenda Um, so I guess I kind of almost throw that out as as a as a new guy I'm not sure which committee would be or both would be most Advantage or that would be most advantageous to handle that so Would the chairman of the strategic fiscal elect him a comment? I think that the mayor should make that call and direct it to the appropriate committee Fair enough, then okay 1231 and the committee to be directed by the mayor Okay, the motion has been made in second to amend any other discussion on the amendment All in favor say aye. Aye. Chair votes. Aye opposed Motion carries All in Hannah. I would like to add a second amendment to my original motion With the hope that this is the last amendment To add the New solution Deadline date of 12 the long-term solution of the deadline date of 1231 2010 Is that correct? I think that's contained in the previous. That's the previous amendment. Alderman Hammond's motion was So what is what is the motion that he wants now And what what's the amendment now, okay? The amendment is contingent upon receipt of a letter regarding concessions I thought that was the last one I'm doing the whole thing In a long-term plan Just a long-term plan by 1231 And and it will be directed by the committee what committee it will go to will be directed by the mayor Perfect. That's my motion Move along It was Hannah Gisham and Hammond And I second that I'm good. I'm on a roll. It's already been seconded. It's already been passed. It's already been made It's already been passed We're discussing this amendment that we've already passed so Alderman born I was just when we get around to voting on everything I would I would like a roll call vote on the final vote that we recommend to the council, please You want a roll call for this vote here for that final That page four Page three, sorry On the market share that you have for if you have 50 of the market share and round trip revenue of 192,415 That number is well over inflated because they were going off of the the mileage of the six dollars and 74 cents round trip That's that's false because on on trip two the hospital That's going to be 100 accurate trip back when you're trying to do a round trip You're going to get about 60 cents on the return trip not six dollars and 74 cents So I mean it makes it makes a big difference when you keep going for 50 of the market share on that many calls That'll deflate that 192 thousand dollars quite a bit So I just wondering if that obviously it wasn't taken into account and then the other part of that also was What's the protocol when you go when you change from a bls call to an al s call When you're doing medicare services, what at what point, you know, does it become an al s call? is it Injecting an IV injecting a drug or what what when does it become an al s call for the price difference There's many different factors. It's just the level of care That wasn't figured into these I believe this was this was put together by Our billing agency and director hansen I really had little input into this okay other than getting those two together Okay, because that was that just deflates a number that's on there So I wish you know, I guess trying it with both of them are nancy blasted I would imagine majority of them are bls calls Alderman versi, excuse me if it's if it's helpful during strategic fiscal planning discussion, uh regarding That whole complete data. We actually discounted the whole thing It became not part of our decision-making process in forwarding this document. Uh only because We thought felt that was an initial Kick with a billing service who isn't even employed by us yet With a finance director that was working with them And it was that type of stuff was new to them too And then you have the market factors of deterrent of comparison of markets, which we didn't think was valid either Uh, so we didn't it was not in consideration So basically this is a shredder document. That's the way we did it. Yeah If that's helpful if it ever comes up again, I think all that stuff you had to be Proper, but it's not part. It wasn't part of our Okay, great Alderman Hammond, that's me Chief firm and I on the uh, I have a couple just a couple uh, billing thing questions Maybe you can help me with on the potential local transport rate analysis Under should it says shabuigan fire department BLS non-emergency Uh shabuigan fire department resident 575 non-resident 600 That's the rate that you would be that was would be the rate that you were billing somebody that has insurance Or that would be the would that be the gross bill to any category? We don't change the amount billed By whether you have insurance or your medicare medicate whatever everybody's the same amount. Okay. Good Then my follow-up question is then You're billing 575 and 600 depending on whether it's a resident or non-resident But medicare is only going to pay you 158 bucks for that call And if it's Medicaid They're going to pay a 94 dollars 94 dollars and 90 cents if it's a BLS non-emergency base Or if it's an ALS non-emergency base, they're going to they're going to pay you 113 88 Now what I need clarification on and I I realize you've been very busy the last few days and I requested this information Is and I know uh, all of them get you and I have to be very careful how I say this The the amount of money he talked about at the last meeting was 30 dollars of additional marginal costs To do to do one of these calls as reported by the finance director. Yes. Okay. Thank you Uh, I guess I I'm still wanting to find out and I would like to see it in a detailed Report of what our actual marginal costs are for one of these calls When you consider the fact that you're going to have two people out there For an hour or an hour and a half You're going to have supplies involved and then you're also going to have to restage the ambulance once it gets back to the fire department and I guess I have a little a little trouble Uh With the figure of if that's what it is 30 dollars of what your actual marginal costs are Now I guess there's a couple different ways you can handle this, you know currently You charge out 25 of your paramedics time to ambulance and 75 of the fire department You might want to uh, after you review this you might want to up that to let's say 27 or 30 of their time because if you get into this business, you're going to besides your ambulance calls You're going to be doing a lot more of these uh transfers So I think your marginal costs have to be adjusted In relation to the amount of more time they're going to be spending on that side of the business and all fairness to Getting a true picture of what the marginal costs are for this this this business So I guess the bottom line is I would like to see something of how you're going to adjust that Or if you can give me a figure on one call What your additional marginal costs are going to be because of the manpower the supplies And restaging of the ambulance and you know, I I realize you've been busy And if you can get that to me within a reasonable amount of time, I certainly would appreciate it I think I can give it to you in just an explanation I believe that 30 dollars is probably high I believe it's probably a one gallon of gas Because uh, the majority of our supplies are reimbursed through the billing Um And the 75 25 allocation is not true As you know the bottom four paramedics on our pay scale Are allocated to the ambulance fund so And you've asked me to run this like a business before but what you've asked me is Okay, we allocate the cost of our employees to the fire department fund And the four to the ambulance fund You've asked me to allocate All of our expenses of the 18 paramedics to the ambulance Portion but not subtracted from the fire department portion Now you're asking me to allocate Those same hours of time again to a another Revenue base The irs in private business looks at that as fraud as Allocating your expenses three times over that are the same exact expense I never asked you to do that But I'm not saying you asked me to to fraudulent No, I didn't ask but that you're asking me to Charge out the two employees times in three different spots And you can't do that It's they're all paid from the city general fund, but they're only paid once they're not paid three times And that's where the whole discrepancy is with the ambulance the fire-based ambulance here in cheboygan Is that we are separating that out as to how do we allocate those expenses, but we can't do it more than once Well, I guess I I guess I disagree with the fact that only 25 percent of your paramedics time is being allocated to the ambulance Uh when they're making over 2,000 calls a year and you've got more than four paramedics You got what 17 or 18 now We have 18 that are Physically on the ambulance and if you look at actual time spent on calls and a 24-hour shift. It's roughly 1.85 hours Per med crew so times two people We do not figure in their report time and cleanup time, which is you probably could double that time So the true amount of time spent on ambulance calls and a 24-hour shift is probably about four hours each Now again, we can go back and say okay. How about their training time? We need to allocate that It's very difficult to do Chief if I could follow up Does that uh The other time other than the 1.9 hours I think that was 1.9 you said the other time in their life They're real firemen right the other time of their life. They're school teachers because we're in the schools They are fire building inspectors Uh At the garden apartments on Calumet Drive. They were the hose crew that they met med four I think people are confused that the only during those eight hours all they are is ambulance So the same people who were there considering the bottom four four are gone now Who were there just acting as firemen and having downtime to play ping pong and make chili And I've said that before the fire department you I know they think that's kind of nasty about just an illustration They of course do more than that now now they're spending 75 of their time Generating revenue, correct. They wouldn't you wouldn't have less bodies. You would have less revenue All the diversity I can actually help the chief on this one And this is where a unit outer utilization really comes in and it just shows I I did all of 2009 because that it's a full record Your your unit our utilization is basically every every hour. You can see how many calls per hour is what's going on The best month we had last year for 2009 was a month of august And that was one call for every 8.54 hours The rest of the months january it's one call for every 10 hours february is one call for every 10.6 But that's the best month was august So I mean as far as allocating the expenses and allocating their time Believe that would be accurate because you're not really running that many calls So I mean that's helping you But that's one thing that we talked about before that you should be doing more often is the unit hour utilization Just to show council members show the city and show yourself as trying to run a business on where you're going to go with the ambulance service and If we do get the cat rms I will be able to give you a much better year end report than what has been submitted in the years before I became chief because It's almost impossible for us to pull that out of anywhere right now Miran I thank you once again, mr. Chairman you know, I think the the Easiest way in trying to explain the whole fire department ambulance Scenario to people It takes four people to run a fire truck And yet we only have two people on our trucks the other two are on the ambulance So that's one thing that everybody has to remember and it's it's really it's taking it down to the lowest common denominator It's dumbing it down. It takes four people to run a fire truck Two of those four are on the ambulance If you get rid of your ambulance you still need four people to run a fire truck So when it comes to Cost allocation and we're you know, where do you where do you where do you slot these people as far as expense? You get rid of your ambulance you still need Those people on a fire truck So that's you know, that's really simplifying it But that's what it comes down to And you know, that's that's the easiest way to explain it to somebody that says just get rid of the ambulance Keep all the fire stations open. It just doesn't happen that way All the way down, aren't we just filing this document? That's the motion so far. Yes I'll call the question. The question's been called. Alden Radke. Thank you And they're second to that Okay, all in favor call on the question. This is just a vote just to call the question say I Chair votes. I opposed motion carries I'm sorry. No, I would want to I had a couple more questions, but the majority rules So I'm sorry and one one against on the question The question has been called to two-thirds majority So on to the question of filing all in favor say I Chair votes. I opposed Motion carries We are not done yet To the public now who's been waiting patiently. We thank you. You've heard the discussions and The difficulty that we face as a council Um on the next council meeting whatever that may be on this issue comes up Generally, we only have five people speaking. I wanted the public to opportunity to speak on the issue Before we actually take a vote on it. So we do have 30 minute limit on public inputs Two minutes per speaker again as we did before on the issue regarding the fire department. I'd like to speak Please step forward Chase You need my address again. I've got it. All right. Thanks Okay I'm not going to use the whole two minutes I don't even know where to start But let me give a look just let me go back a little bit because I don't want to get into an argument over negotiating contracts or at this time But I think it's important for everybody in the council as well as the public to understand And this isn't a slam to any other labor organization in this city But back last year when we sat down with the city to work out a contract We didn't get it in writing We didn't give two extra percent for health insurance. We're not paying two extra 12 percent of our health insurance What our late what our union did was give back two percent of our wages that went to health insurance Two percent of our wages we brought back under the auspice that hey Maybe this will help get back the people we lost And we did it because of how important staffing is not only to the public But how important is to us to do our jobs? That's why we did it Came out of our wages to come back and help the city and the citizens run this city fire department Looking forward this union came together Months ago and decided to sit down and look at what we could do to help out the city again Because we knew that we needed to move forward on this issue. We thought we're I'll even tell I'll say Uh Upset maybe isn't the best word That even at my own myself and some of the members on my group who sat down with city leaders and negotiated that contract Under a thought that we would get those people back with the two percent of our wages We we gave back which again, like I said, no other labor union did in this city We sat back down and offered let's what else could we do so we came up with another concession what we're doing here Is trying to help and get the city to have the best fire department it can have the fire department it needs and deserves and Am I two minutes up two minutes around? So close, but I won't go on You'll all hear me in a cliffhanger To be continued My position has always been fiscal responsibility Accountability and transparency in any government entity This alone makes my position right Based on the fact not fiction Of today's incompetent and management from city hall on down to the shiboygan fire department among other departments City hall gave away the bank And now was saddled with obligations beyond its control and now must face the music of further necessary cuts As far as the ambulance service is concerned that was explained this monday last and must be shut down completely This is a moral decision based on uncalled for government intrusion Into private enterprise for the initial sole purpose of saving Unneeded jobs and quite naturally grew into an incompetently managed and financially Unsustainable bureaucracy point of order. I don't think this committee based on decorum can accept In competency and words such as that to describe either is this going to be a public hearing or not We have rules on public hearings, sir When you make them up as you go along In the end you have almost a third of the shiboygan fire department's budget required For pension and that's only one department It needs to be brought to an end for the city to remain a viable entity to its citizens Shutting down the complete shiboygan fire department and reopening it the next day as the shiboygan volunteer fire department is another option The city's inability through frequent political changes to affect a stable government for the benefit of its citizens Cries for a change to a city administrator form of government The support you seem to show for a continuation of business as usual Is totally unacceptable and can be shown only as more inevitable and unnecessary waste Good night Anybody else like to speak today? Matt polls in 20 at 22 south 19th street. I just want to finish chase this statement. I guess We have uh Our concession that we made this year Was intended to get the guys hired already Our offer that we've made for next year is hopefully going to cement that We had some discussions last week or two You know, we it will get us through to the end of 11 when our contract for 12 and going forward will be open We are more than willing to work with the city at that time. So thank you. Thank you Anybody else like to speak this evening? Okay. Anybody else like to speak this evening? And This is a public issue or it is and it's a good thing. Okay. Yeah, I need to ask one more time for the public No, we'll move on. Anybody else in the public like to speak this evening? Okay. I'll then walk for his Articulativeness tonight and his endurance Articulated several business scenarios very well And I want to commend him for that and I also want to mention that Acknowledge that there's a young lady that's potentially still floating out on Lake Michigan While we've been having this conversation. There's a real incident going on real-life emergency response that's going on and and uh, so I want to acknowledge that Keep hearing your thoughts and prayers tonight if that's still going on I'm gonna want to add one last perspective because I'm a sap of an idealist and that is I heard some people get exhausted out there and kind of sigh and stuff But this stuff's thrilling to me because um, I am probably dying that the mayor Maybe not a chase we've served in I can count I can't hold on two hands the number of countries I've served in where they don't get to have this kind of dialogue And so I am thrilled tonight. I'm not worried about the police department showing up at my door in the middle of the night And uh and intimidating me not worried about chief Domigalski's guys pulling me and my wife over to intimidate me I'm not worried about with the press I mean every one of you can say whatever you want and press it on the blogs tonight And that's because of the magic that is this very special rare country that we live in And so We disagree how we're going to fund the police department. What should we all be paid? We disagree on that But outside these doors we're neighbors and americans and the fact that we can have this conversation And everybody get their turn and then carter can have his turn and we can all have our turn That's a beautiful special thing. I want you to think about that as you go home and I appreciate your indulgence, mr Aldermonglin Just a just a comment mr. Chairman I'll let me guess you I have to disagree with you. I think mr Paulus has a right to speak his opinion He was giving us an opinion. He wasn't stating a hard core fact, but it was his opinion He has a right to say that I believe and I really am quite dismayed that You know, he was being subjected to Some scorn because of what he said anytime that this committee starts Facing people or having people come up to the podium and telling them that We don't like what they're saying I think we're overstepping the line there and I think that's a rather serious breach I need a motion to adjourn Is there a motion made album box second All in geisha all in favor say aye We stand adjourned